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pullmoll
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pedit + sedit
#212202 - 01/24/10 05:35 PM


I'm slowly getting somewhere with my efforts to write (yet another) EDA system. In the schematics editor selecting parts and dragging them around is now possible.

sedit for now has fixed filenames: parts.xml for the part library and sheet1.xml for the schematics.
pedit is called with the name of the parts library, i.e. "./pedit parts.xml". It doesn't use the mouse, just the keyboard.

If you are on Windows and want to have a look and play with sedit or pedit, get the *.exe and *.xml files from http://pmbits.ath.cx/pong/sedate/

On *nix you can get src/*.c include/*.h and the Makefile and roll your own (SDL required).

I'm quite positive that this can soon be used to capture schematics of more games, and then create the TTL emulation XML from the netlist. That'll make it much easier to get the available schematics done.

Juergen

BTW: Does anyone have an idea for a name for my youngest child?

Edited by pullmoll (01/27/10 09:51 PM)



StilettoAdministrator
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Re: pedit + sedit new [Re: pullmoll]
#212209 - 01/24/10 08:23 PM


> If you are on Windows and want to have a look and play with sedit or pedit, get the
> *.exe and *.xml files from http://pmbits.ath.cx/pong/img/

Thanks. FYI - I asked couriersud nicely if he had time and he gave me a makefile that should build ttl.c for Windows/MingW/SDL without MSYS needed. I've yet to try it out, maybe later this week.

> I'm quite positive that this can soon be used to capture schematics of more games,
> and then create the TTL emulation XML from the netlist. That'll make it much easier
> to get the available schematics done.

I'm still a little nervous about it, can you possibly in the future add a conversion tool to convert the schematics file or possibly netlist as well into a format that's widely supported by the other EDA editors?

> BTW: Does anyone have an idea for a name for my youngest child?

for TTL? how about TeeTLe.
DAME - Discrete circuitry Arcade Machine Emulator...
hmm...

You should start a new thread for a naming competition (and then you can have a logo competition, and then someone can make you a website, and then you'll be kewl like all the other non-MAME arcade emulator developers. )

- Stiletto



Moose
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Re: pedit + sedit new [Re: pullmoll]
#212247 - 01/25/10 12:26 AM


> BTW: Does anyone have an idea for a name for my youngest child?

If they look anything like your avitar, how about "Wingnut" ?

Joking of course. And I know the avitar is part of a photo on the Strange Family Photos (? called something like that) web site.



Moose



StilettoAdministrator
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Re: pedit + sedit new [Re: Moose]
#212251 - 01/25/10 12:59 AM


> > BTW: Does anyone have an idea for a name for my youngest child?
>
> If they look anything like your avitar, how about "Wingnut" ?
>
> Joking of course. And I know the avitar is part of a photo on the Strange Family
> Photos (? called something like that) web site.

Oh, I assumed he was artistically talking about his new program ("youngest child"). If not, there's a thread here about that... lemme see...
[EDIT] http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=mamechat&Number=195699

- Stiletto



gregf
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Re: pedit + sedit new [Re: pullmoll]
#212283 - 01/25/10 07:44 AM




>I'm slowly getting somewhere with my efforts to write (yet another) EDA system. In the
> schematics editor selecting parts and dragging them around is now possible.

>sedit for now has fixed filenames: parts.xml for the part library and sheet1.xml for the
> schematics.
>pedit is called with the name of the parts library, i.e. "./pedit parts.xml". It doesn't
> use the mouse, just the keyboard.

>If you are on Windows and want to have a look and play with sedit or pedit, get the
> *.exe and *.xml files from






Pedit is for a single part to be created and saved as a file (see image) and then can be utilized with sedit utility later when creating schematics from paperwork. Definitely a good start imo. Trying it to see what features there are.

If sedit can ultimately handle the multiple pages size of logic schematics, say Midway Sea Wolf for example, that would be something. Midway Wheels is also just as large.



gregf
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Re: pedit + sedit new [Re: Stiletto]
#212284 - 01/25/10 07:50 AM




>> BTW: Does anyone have an idea for a name for my youngest child?

>for TTL? how about TeeTLe.

I like yours.

I'll add "Slo-Mo" (as in: "slow as molasses" when it runs one of the games.)



pullmoll
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Re: pedit + sedit new [Re: gregf]
#212291 - 01/25/10 10:11 AM Attachment: sheet1.png 20 KB (1 downloads)


> Pedit is for a single part to be created and saved as a file (see image) and then can
> be utilized with sedit utility later when creating schematics from paperwork.

Nope. Pedit is for editing a library of parts. Use PgDn and PgUp to browse through the parts.

> Definitely a good start imo. Trying it to see what features there are.

It isn't complete yet. I need to add the ability to specify the default locations of a part instance's identifier and value, like resistor number R13 and value 100k.

> If sedit can ultimately handle the multiple pages size of logic schematics, say
> Midway Sea Wolf for example, that would be something. Midway Wheels is also just as
> large.

I just added the scroll ability to the code. The sheet size can be arbitrarily large. I'll add code to page through multiple sheets in a single project later.

[ATTACHED IMAGE - CLICK FOR FULL SIZE]

Attachment



pullmoll
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Description new [Re: pullmoll]
#212313 - 01/25/10 07:10 PM


Now the code is almost complete and I'd appreciate some test reports.

Some explanations for the non-obvious things in sedit:

Selecting lines/parts with Ctrl + left button allows to select multiple lines/parts.

Selecting is possible inside a rectangle. Start dragging outside of any line / part. Included is everything that is partially inside the capture rectangle.

To drag a selection click on any part / line that is selected and move the mouse keeping the left button pressed. Attention: scrolling through the sheet while dragging a selection is not yet supported.

The delete key deletes a selection.

To unselect everything click somewhere outside lines / parts.

The cut line mode cuts a line at the end to which the scissors are closer. After cutting you can place the line end somewhere else, and return to cut mode.

The part mode starts with the last part selected. Use the mouse wheel to scroll through the part library. Left button places a part at the current location.

The middle button can be held down and mouse moved to pan the display window over the sheet.

The scrollbar buttons can be dragged with left mouse button to scroll through the sheet.

The cursor keys can be used to scroll through the sheet with steps of 10 * step width (240 pixels). Together with Ctrl the step width is 1 step.

The identifiers of parts are not yet moveable and as such oftentimes unreadable.

There is no part value element yet. After it's implemented it will be moveable just like the identifier. The default locations for identifiers and values are/will be defined in the part library.

---

The sheet1.xml currently contains a part of the Pong schematics. To start a new project, just delete the old sheet1.xml before running sedit. The sheet1.xml will be auto-saved on exit, and a backup copy of the previous version will be made.

Juergen



pullmoll
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Re: pedit + sedit new [Re: Stiletto]
#212314 - 01/25/10 07:19 PM


> for TTL? how about TeeTLe.
> DAME - Discrete circuitry Arcade Machine Emulator...
> hmm...

No, for the editor(s). I was thinking of SEDATE = simple electronic design automation targeted (at) emulation. :-)

Juergen



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Re: pedit + sedit new [Re: pullmoll]
#212346 - 01/26/10 02:32 AM


> > for TTL? how about TeeTLe.
> > DAME - Discrete circuitry Arcade Machine Emulator...
> > hmm...
>
> No, for the editor(s). I was thinking of SEDATE = simple electronic design automation
> targeted (at) emulation. :-)

Works for me. Anyone else?

- Stiletto



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Re: Description new [Re: pullmoll]
#212348 - 01/26/10 02:37 AM


> Now the code is almost complete and I'd appreciate some test reports.
>
> Some explanations for the non-obvious things in sedit:
>
> Selecting lines/parts with Ctrl + left button allows to select multiple lines/parts.
>
> Selecting is possible inside a rectangle. Start dragging outside of any line / part.
> Included is everything that is partially inside the capture rectangle.
>
> To drag a selection click on any part / line that is selected and move the mouse
> keeping the left button pressed. Attention: scrolling through the sheet while
> dragging a selection is not yet supported.
>
> The delete key deletes a selection.
>
> To unselect everything click somewhere outside lines / parts.
>
> The cut line mode cuts a line at the end to which the scissors are closer. After
> cutting you can place the line end somewhere else, and return to cut mode.
>
> The part mode starts with the last part selected. Use the mouse wheel to scroll
> through the part library. Left button places a part at the current location.
>
> The middle button can be held down and mouse moved to pan the display window over the
> sheet.
>
> The scrollbar buttons can be dragged with left mouse button to scroll through the
> sheet.
>
> The cursor keys can be used to scroll through the sheet with steps of 10 * step width
> (240 pixels). Together with Ctrl the step width is 1 step.
>
> The identifiers of parts are not yet moveable and as such oftentimes unreadable.
>
> There is no part value element yet. After it's implemented it will be moveable just
> like the identifier. The default locations for identifiers and values are/will be
> defined in the part library.
>
> ---
>
> The sheet1.xml currently contains a part of the Pong schematics. To start a new
> project, just delete the old sheet1.xml before running sedit. The sheet1.xml will be
> auto-saved on exit, and a backup copy of the previous version will be made.

When you're happy with the featureset, will you go with a standard portable GUI like GTK or Qt? Don't kill me, I'm just asking.

- Stiletto



pullmoll
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Re: Description new [Re: Stiletto]
#212362 - 01/26/10 05:03 AM


> When you're happy with the featureset, will you go with a standard portable GUI like
> GTK or Qt? Don't kill me, I'm just asking.

Nope. a) slow b) slow c) I have no experience with either.



gregf
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Re: Description - partial report new [Re: pullmoll]
#212409 - 01/26/10 11:08 PM




Testing with Sedit.exe only.

appears to work okay: Selecting lines/parts with Ctrl + left button allows to select multiple lines/parts.


appears to work okay: Selecting is possible inside a rectangle.

appears to work okay: To drag a selection click on any part / line that is selected and move the mouse keeping the left button pressed.


appears to work okay: To unselect everything click somewhere outside lines / parts.

appears to work okay: The part mode starts with the last part selected. Use the mouse wheel to scroll through the part library. Left button places a part at the current location.

appears to work okay: The scrollbar buttons can be dragged with left mouse button to scroll through the sheet.





As for items that are either not working or I am not familiar with yet.


The delete key deletes a selection: Nothing seems to happen with this.




I can't tell if this feature is working.


The cursor keys can be used to scroll through the sheet with steps of 10 * step width (240 pixels). Together with Ctrl the step width is 1 step.



As for other items to mention, but unsure if using them correctly.

1. Unable to reach bottom of the window in order to access horizontal scroll button feature for scrolling (moving cursor) horizontal

2. When at command line prompt to type sedit xxxxx.xml and whatever the filename is of the XML data file, Sedit will not operate.



shadwolf
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Re: pedit + sedit new [Re: Stiletto]
#212433 - 01/27/10 04:59 AM


> > > for TTL? how about TeeTLe.
> > > DAME - Discrete circuitry Arcade Machine Emulator...
> > > hmm...
> >
> > No, for the editor(s). I was thinking of SEDATE = simple electronic design
> automation
> > targeted (at) emulation. :-)
>
> Works for me. Anyone else?
>
> - Stiletto

I second that - SEDATE is *awesome* for the editor. I vote for TeeTLe for ttl too ^_^



shadwolf
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Re: Description new [Re: pullmoll]
#212440 - 01/27/10 07:00 AM


I've spent some time this evening starting to diagram Atari's Touch Me (hope you feel like emulating some on/off light bulbs soon ;-) in sedit and have got to say that it's *very* easy to use. I like it - everything is very simple and straightforward.

One thing I think that might be really helpful to speed up diagramming on some of the redundant components would be a 'duplicate selection' feature, to duplicate selected items and insert them in an open space on the visible diagram. Perhaps once duplicated, they'd could then be auto-selected and thus ready to move...

I see that value assignment is yet to be implemented, so am eager to see that functionality. Also am curious about new parts creation in pedit... I couldn't figure out how to create a new part in the interface (it may be obvious though - sometimes I overlook what's right in front of me), so resorted to adding an entry in parts.xml and then edited it's entry in the interface.

Also am curious to know if you plan to maintain the master parts file, or if you had considered adding some kind of merge function in case others created new parts. Perhaps that would be an easy way to add externally-created parts to a master parts file? For example, I needed to create a 555 timer but am hesitant to do much more part creation as when I grab the next refresh of your parts.xml I would lose any parts I create in mine (unless I go in and selectively copy/paste from one file to the other)

Thanks for your efforts - your emulator and editors are great developments and I hope to see many contributors helping keep these old games alive.



gregf
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Re: Description new [Re: shadwolf]
#212451 - 01/27/10 11:07 AM




>starting to diagram Atari's Touch Me (hope you feel like emulating some on/off light
> bulbs soon

Good luck with this game.




It would be a neat addition imo. As already known, if any of the non-cpu games are supported in MAME some time later, the physical cab unit might be able to have hardware hookup to lamp output feature with artwork system.

The problem is still needing to have very good quality scans or cab artwork images to work with in order to fully support the game. That is the situation with a couple other non-video games that are already emulated in MAME.

As for non-video games, I would like to see Gremlin's Trap Shoot (wall mounted game) preserved, but high quality scans of the artwork are first needed. I was really tempted to make a bid for such a game last year, but decided to drop from bidding since there was already a bidding war at the time of the auction.



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Re: Description new [Re: gregf]
#212469 - 01/27/10 03:54 PM


> As for non-video games, I would like to see Gremlin's Trap Shoot (wall mounted game)
> preserved, but high quality scans of the artwork are first needed. I was really
> tempted to make a bid for such a game last year, but decided to drop from bidding
> since there was already a bidding war at the time of the auction.

I assume you've seen http://www.wallgames.com and http://www.monroeworld.com/trapshoot/ over the years?

Maybe Shane Monroe still has scans and such, even if it seems he has abandoned or back-burnered the project...

I have to say, where you draw the line for what becomes emulated/documented becomes exceptionally blurry. For example, just to draw a line, I am concentrating right now more on the video discrete games right now than the non-video.

- Stiletto



pullmoll
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Re: Description new [Re: shadwolf]
#212472 - 01/27/10 04:02 PM


> I've spent some time this evening starting to diagram Atari's Touch Me (hope you feel
> like emulating some on/off light bulbs soon ;-) in sedit and have got to say that
> it's *very* easy to use. I like it - everything is very simple and straightforward.

Thank you! That was my intent behind it.

> One thing I think that might be really helpful to speed up diagramming on some of the
> redundant components would be a 'duplicate selection' feature, to duplicate selected
> items and insert them in an open space on the visible diagram. Perhaps once
> duplicated, they'd could then be auto-selected and thus ready to move...

I'll think about it. I'm currently in a little trouble with the select + drag code, because it creates unwanted connections when dragging over existing parts. I move the parts and lines to drag to a temporary sheet now, which makes it behave nice, but I'm not done with it yet.

> I see that value assignment is yet to be implemented, so am eager to see that
> functionality. Also am curious about new parts creation in pedit... I couldn't figure
> out how to create a new part in the interface (it may be obvious though - sometimes I
> overlook what's right in front of me), so resorted to adding an entry in parts.xml
> and then edited it's entry in the interface.

To create a new part in the middle of a lib you use the insert key "Insert". Then you can alter width and height and the "a"llocate key creates an empty entry.

Alternatively you can insert an empty space and "c"opy a part by its number. Only the graphics is copied, not the pins.

> Also am curious to know if you plan to maintain the master parts file, or if you had
> considered adding some kind of merge function in case others created new parts.

For now I'll maintain the parts.xml. If you have additions, you could just mail them to me or even attach to a thread. I can append them to the main file.

I'm also thinking about setting up a CVS pserver on my box to make it easier to update the files for you.

> Perhaps that would be an easy way to add externally-created parts to a master parts
> file?

An import function should be easy enough to implement.

> For example, I needed to create a 555 timer but am hesitant to do much more
> part creation as when I grab the next refresh of your parts.xml I would lose any
> parts I create in mine (unless I go in and selectively copy/paste from one file to
> the other)

I'll do the 555 and 566 soon, or if you want to share your's, I'll take that.

> Thanks for your efforts - your emulator and editors are great developments and I hope
> to see many contributors helping keep these old games alive.

Me too

Juergen



gregf
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Re: Description new [Re: Stiletto]
#212495 - 01/27/10 09:45 PM




>> As for non-video games, I would like to see Gremlin's Trap Shoot (wall mounted game)
>> preserved, but high quality scans of the artwork are first needed. I was really
>> tempted to make a bid for such a game last year, but decided to drop from bidding
>> since there was already a bidding war at the time of the auction.

>I assume you've seen http://www.wallgames.com and http://www.monroeworld.com/trapshoot/
> over the years? Maybe Shane Monroe still has scans and such, even if it seems he has
>abandoned or back-burnered the project...

Yep. Talked about that a while ago. I would still like to see a big ol scan done via Mr. Do's standards.....if possible.


>I have to say, where you draw the line for what becomes emulated/documented becomes
> exceptionally blurry. For example, just to draw a line, I am concentrating right now
> more on the video discrete games right now than the non-video.

Heh. Well the Midway 18 Wheeler game 8080 cpu controlled non-video game doesn't help matters with roms already dumped, but very good artwork quality is needed for game to be emulated properly just like one of the currently emulated Data East games. :-)

I know Gremlin's Trap Shoot has a better chance compared to WG at this time of being emulated. The way I see it: as long as game doesn't rely on simulating physics properties, it might be possible to emulate/simulate, but that is optimistic thinking.



ranger_lennier
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Re: Description new [Re: gregf]
#212507 - 01/27/10 10:40 PM


> > I have to say, where you draw the line for what becomes emulated/documented becomes
> > exceptionally blurry. For example, just to draw a line, I am concentrating right
> now
> > more on the video discrete games right now than the non-video.
>
> Heh. Well the Midway 18 Wheeler game 8080 cpu controlled non-video game doesn't help
> matters with roms already dumped, but very good artwork quality is needed for game to
> be emulated properly just like one of the currently emulated Data East games. :-)
>
> I know Gremlin's Trap Shoot has a better chance compared to WG at this time of being
> emulated. The way I see it: as long as game doesn't rely on simulating physics
> properties, it might be possible to emulate/simulate, but that is optimistic
> thinking.

Yeah, in my opinion, if it's feasible to emulate/simulate something, it's a good thing to do. Of course, someone has to take the initiative to work on it. And who knows, as technology progresses, extremely accurate physics simulations may allow more things to be reproduced accurately, as long as the information's still out there.



pullmoll
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WIP and moved new [Re: pullmoll]
#212519 - 01/28/10 12:57 AM


The source directory moved to /pong/sedate now.
I couldn't setup CVS yet. The cvs daemon just won't run. I'll look into that later.

The editor now supports dragging of part labels and values, and (of course) entering of values, too.

Juergen



gregf
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Re: WIP and moved new [Re: pullmoll]
#212522 - 01/28/10 01:19 AM





>The source directory moved to /pong/sedate now.
>The editor now supports dragging of part labels and values, and (of course) entering of
> values, too.

Thanks for the updates. If schematics are being created, can games that use proms be started (ie: Ramtek Clean Sweep)? Or is it only all-TTL logic type hardware games for now?

If only all-TTL, I have Midway Winner, Midway Winner IV, Midway Wheels, Midway Wheels II (online but might not be complete), Amutronics TV Ping Pong, URL's Video Action (uses 2 pcbs though), PMC's TV Table Tennis.



>I couldn't setup CVS yet. The cvs daemon just won't run. I'll look into that later.



pullmoll
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Re: WIP and moved new [Re: gregf]
#212523 - 01/28/10 01:39 AM


> Thanks for the updates. If schematics are being created, can games that use proms be
> started (ie: Ramtek Clean Sweep)? Or is it only all-TTL logic type hardware games for
> now?

If someone captures a game with ROMs, I'll add support for ROMs to TTL. That should be rather easy. The ROM contents could be included as hexdump in the part description, or perhaps be loaded from a filename specified in the entry for the ROM.



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Re: Description new [Re: ranger_lennier]
#212563 - 01/28/10 07:17 AM


> > > I have to say, where you draw the line for what becomes emulated/documented
> becomes
> > > exceptionally blurry. For example, just to draw a line, I am concentrating right
> > now
> > > more on the video discrete games right now than the non-video.
> >
> > Heh. Well the Midway 18 Wheeler game 8080 cpu controlled non-video game doesn't
> help
> > matters with roms already dumped, but very good artwork quality is needed for game
> to
> > be emulated properly just like one of the currently emulated Data East games. :-)
> >
> > I know Gremlin's Trap Shoot has a better chance compared to WG at this time of
> being
> > emulated. The way I see it: as long as game doesn't rely on simulating physics
> > properties, it might be possible to emulate/simulate, but that is optimistic
> > thinking.
>
> Yeah, in my opinion, if it's feasible to emulate/simulate something, it's a good
> thing to do. Of course, someone has to take the initiative to work on it. And who
> knows, as technology progresses, extremely accurate physics simulations may allow
> more things to be reproduced accurately, as long as the information's still out
> there.

Okay, so maybe that's a line to draw for now:
1. If it uses TTL and/or ROMs/cassettes and video
2. If it uses TTL and/or ROMs/cassettes and light bulbs/LEDs
3. If it uses TTL and/or ROMs/cassettes and video projection/interaction with input devices
Then it's a go.

On the other hand, if it uses some sort of 3D "set" or playfield or interface (electromechanical) or requires any sort of physics simulation at all, then it's a no-go. For now, at least.

Unless I'm forgetting some other category.

Problem is, there's really only sketchy information on non-video arcade games that are purely electronic and not electromechanical. And it's much harder, guys like Al Kossow haven't done the heavy lifting of listmaking.

---

For some reason this post keeps making me think of the obviously-CPU-using "Stacker" redmption games that seem to be everywhere...

---

If this sort of thing ever becomes part of MAME, it will be interesting to see how couriersud/Derrick Renaud's creations/interesting code could be merged with this project. It will also be interesting to see how someone might use "TTL" to simulate only the audio portion (or simply an audio filter) to a CPU-using arcade game. I think even the PinMAME guys will be interested, surely there were pure-TTL pinball games?

Exciting times we live in, I have really high hopes for this project of Juergen's.

BTW, I let Pong run to over 3000 frames the other night. Attract mode seems *perfect* except for the stray line near certain scoring digits. (Actual gameplay, however, is kinda broken. But it's still VERY early days. )

I must apologize to those looking for additional work on the actual game simulations for distracting Juergen with the EDA development, it's kinda all my fault for encouraging the work on it. Not that it won't pay off in the long run...

- Stiletto



shadwolf
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Re: Description new [Re: gregf]
#212568 - 01/28/10 08:14 AM


I thought Touch Me would be a fun one to get running. The schematics aren't too complicated and figured it would be a good one to get started with as I get acclimated to Juergen's tools.

Hopefully the end result will be fun to play around with. Anyone out there have a Touch Me machine and feel like taking a panel photo of with like a 10 megapixel camera? I noticed no one seems to have one listed as being owned on klov.com...



ranger_lennier
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Re: Description new [Re: Stiletto]
#212569 - 01/28/10 08:18 AM


> Okay, so maybe that's a line to draw for now:
> 1. If it uses TTL and/or ROMs/cassettes and video
> 2. If it uses TTL and/or ROMs/cassettes and light bulbs/LEDs
> 3. If it uses TTL and/or ROMs/cassettes and video projection/interaction with input
> devices
> Then it's a go.
>
> On the other hand, if it uses some sort of 3D "set" or playfield or interface
> (electromechanical) or requires any sort of physics simulation at all, then it's a
> no-go. For now, at least.
>
> Unless I'm forgetting some other category.
>

That all sounds reasonable, and plenty of work for now. MAME at least already has the basic infrastructure for displaying videos (for laserdiscs), artwork, and lamps. Some more complicated artwork like the scrolling background on Midway's 18 Wheeler (non-video but CPU-using) might take some additional work. Good artwork support might be able to handle some of those target shooting games with moving targets in the background, if any of those are TTL.


> Problem is, there's really only sketchy information on non-video arcade games that
> are purely electronic and not electromechanical. And it's much harder, guys like Al
> Kossow haven't done the heavy lifting of listmaking.
>

At least TAFA is including non-video flyers now, but yeah, just getting the information will be a challenge.

> ---
>
> For some reason this post keeps making me think of the obviously-CPU-using "Stacker"
> redmption games that seem to be everywhere...
>
> ---

Found a video of that. I don't see any reason that couldn't be in MAME eventually. The display may be really low resolution, but it's a display nonetheless. That also reminds me of some music game that didn't have an actual video screen, just a bunch of flashing lights. But I'm not inclined to try to find the name at the moment.



shadwolf
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Re: WIP and moved new [Re: pullmoll]
#212572 - 01/28/10 08:31 AM


> > Thanks for the updates. If schematics are being created, can games that use proms
> be
> > started (ie: Ramtek Clean Sweep)? Or is it only all-TTL logic type hardware games
> for
> > now?
>
> If someone captures a game with ROMs, I'll add support for ROMs to TTL. That should
> be rather easy. The ROM contents could be included as hexdump in the part
> description, or perhaps be loaded from a filename specified in the entry for the ROM.

I'm anxious to see rom loading included as many of the TTL games I looked at had roms before I decided to start w/ Touch Me. Stunt Cycle is way up on my list unless someone beats me to it first ;-)

I wonder which method of incorporating the rom dump would be preferable for distribution? To me, a hexdump incorporated in the part description would be ideal, as only one item (or package) is necessary to be distributed. However, rom data is a gray-area, whereas an electronic conversion of schematics seems not to be. Would the inclusion of the rom data with the schematic data make the package as a whole more inaccessible? Just curious what everyone's thoughts are...



ranger_lennier
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Re: Description new [Re: Stiletto]
#212574 - 01/28/10 08:43 AM


>
> BTW, I let Pong run to over 3000 frames the other night. Attract mode seems *perfect*
> except for the stray line near certain scoring digits. (Actual gameplay, however, is
> kinda broken. But it's still VERY early days. )
>

As soon as I start the program, the score is 3 to 1, as if it was in attract mode, but I seem to have full control. I can move both paddles, the ball bounces off of them, and the score increments appropriately. I played all the way to 15 points.

If I insert a coin, the score resets to 0 to 0 and the game begins again, but I encounter these same problems with the ball passing through from the left to right side, getting stuck on one side, etc.

Getting 4.5 FPS, oh yeah.



pullmoll
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CVS and CVSweb new [Re: pullmoll]
#212585 - 01/28/10 01:36 PM


I managed to setup a CVS pserver and CVSweb access also.

Login once (perhaps touch ~/.cvspass first)
you@xyz:~> cvs -d:pserver:anoncvs@pmbits.ath.cx:/anoncvs login
Password: {just hit enter}

Check out ttl
you@xyz:~> cvs -d:pserver:anoncvs@pmbits.ath.cx:/anoncvs co ttl

Check out sedate
you@xyz:~> cvs -d:pserver:anoncvs@pmbits.ath.cx:/anoncvs co sedate

Later on you can update the source of ttl by
you@xyz:ttl>cvs up

It may be useful to have a ~/.cvsrc file. Mine contains:

Code:


# recommended CVS configuration file from the pkgsrc guide
checkout -P
update -dAP
release -d
diff -upN
cvs -q -z3
rdiff -u



CVSweb can be found at http://pmbits.ath.cx/cgi-bin/cvsweb/

The directory access to ttl and sedate moved again:
http://pmbits.ath.cx/ttl/
http://pmbits.ath.cx/sedate/

Enjoy,
Juergen

Edited by pullmoll (01/28/10 01:43 PM)



Naoki
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Re: Description new [Re: ranger_lennier]
#212624 - 01/28/10 09:36 PM


> > ---
> >
> > For some reason this post keeps making me think of the obviously-CPU-using
> "Stacker"
> > redmption games that seem to be everywhere...
> >
> > ---

The times i've not seen it. And yes, i'd say it shouldn't be too hard to do, maybe have it use real LEDs like the real thing? Now that's accurate



----
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By gods I've found it!



StilettoAdministrator
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Re: Description new [Re: ranger_lennier]
#212678 - 01/29/10 07:30 AM


> That all sounds reasonable, and plenty of work for now. MAME at least already has the
> basic infrastructure for displaying videos (for laserdiscs), artwork, and lamps. Some
> more complicated artwork like the scrolling background on Midway's 18 Wheeler
> (non-video but CPU-using) might take some additional work. Good artwork support might
> be able to handle some of those target shooting games with moving targets in the
> background, if any of those are TTL.

Don't some of those use actual BBs or something? That would require a physics simulation. Are any of them "light gun" or something?

It's unlikely some of that would ever make it into MAME. And I would imagine a MAME-accurate simulation of the projection games would require a simulation of the projector, so I believe they are out too.

> At least TAFA is including non-video flyers now, but yeah, just getting the
> information will be a challenge.

You'll forgive me for concentrating on video discrete games for right now... (surprised gregf hasn't commented in this thread today, he must be preparing for his vacation in Canada. )

- Stiletto



StilettoAdministrator
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Re: Description new [Re: ranger_lennier]
#212680 - 01/29/10 07:33 AM


> As soon as I start the program, the score is 3 to 1, as if it was in attract mode,
> but I seem to have full control. I can move both paddles, the ball bounces off of
> them, and the score increments appropriately. I played all the way to 15 points.

Oh, yeah, I forgot about that. Yes, in the simulation you can move the paddles in attract mode. I am not sure that you could do that on the real thing (my guess is no...)

> Getting 4.5 FPS, oh yeah.

I've been enjoying melting gamers' brains by asking them "Hey! Want to play PONG on a Core i7 at 6 FPS?" and then demonstrating. It's been great!

- Stiletto



ranger_lennier
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Re: Description new [Re: Stiletto]
#212681 - 01/29/10 08:01 AM


> Good artwork support
> might
> > be able to handle some of those target shooting games with moving targets in the
> > background, if any of those are TTL.
>
> Don't some of those use actual BBs or something? That would require a physics
> simulation. Are any of them "light gun" or something?
>

Some of them might have used actual projectiles, but others involved making electrical connections. This video has a great explanation of Midway's Haunted House. I'm not sure if there's really any logic board, but the shooting part is all electrical, and the targets are just 2D objects moving along a well-defined track.

> And I would imagine a
> MAME-accurate simulation of the projection games would require a simulation of the
> projector, so I believe they are out too.
>

That strikes me as too limiting a distinction. It's great to emulate laserdisc players that actually do run some sort of code, but doesn't make much sense for a purely analog device. Journey has sample support for Separate Ways, but no one's asking it to simulate a cassette player.


> > At least TAFA is including non-video flyers now, but yeah, just getting the
> > information will be a challenge.
>
> You'll forgive me for concentrating on video discrete games for right now...
> (surprised gregf hasn't commented in this thread today, he must be preparing for his
> vacation in Canada. )
>

You're forgiven. Of course video games are the logical place to start, but it's interesting to think of what could eventually be included.



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Re: CVS and CVSweb new [Re: pullmoll]
#212716 - 01/29/10 05:40 PM


Wow! Awesome progress, Juergen! Downloading them to make some tests...



"Mythology is what grownups believe, folklore is what they tell children and religion is both."



pullmoll
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WIP new [Re: pullmoll]
#212745 - 01/29/10 08:58 PM


Changes in sedit

Parts are now selected from a display of the entire library. Scroll through the display with PgUp/PgDn or the mouse wheel.

The main window is now resizeable. You can also specify an initial size at the command line with -w width -h height.

The scroll bars can now be clicked in the non-thumb area, which makes the sheet shift 1/2 screen width or height.

The mouse wheel now acts as vertical scroll tool.

Pedit can now renumber existing pins.

Lots of minor fixes.

Parts.xml was extended by more parts found in Pong.

Pong schematics is 70% done now. It's all in one sheet, just like the original schematics.

Edited by pullmoll (01/29/10 10:18 PM)



gregf
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Re: Description new [Re: Stiletto]
#212804 - 01/30/10 07:38 AM



>Don't some of those use actual BBs or something? That would require a physics simulation.

Have to go back to mid 1960s or earlier with some of the gun/rifle games doing that.


> Are any of them "light gun" or something?

I know the Nintendo film reel games (WG, Skyhawk) do that and also Nintendo Shooting Trainer (not using film reel, but draws targets to screen) also uses a light gun.


>It's unlikely some of that would ever make it into MAME. And I would imagine a MAME
>-accurate simulation of the projection games would require a simulation of the
> projector, so I believe they are out too.

I believe they might be able to, but for now, it's better to focus with the stuff that is already accounted for at this time.



>You'll forgive me for concentrating on video discrete games for right now... (surprised
> gregf hasn't commented in this thread today, he must be preparing for his vacation in
> Canada.


I was having fun searching yesterday for pdf file of WG manual once again.

Also worth mentioning someone's earlier PS artwork from years earlier when WG manual was posted online at the time.




gregf
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Re: WIP and moved new [Re: pullmoll]
#212805 - 01/30/10 07:55 AM




>> Thanks for the updates. If schematics are being created, can games that use proms be
>> started (ie: Ramtek Clean Sweep)? Or is it only all-TTL logic type hardware games for
>> now?


>If someone captures a game with ROMs, I'll add support for ROMs to TTL. That should be
> rather easy. The ROM contents could be included as hexdump in the part description, or
> perhaps be loaded from a filename specified in the entry for the ROM.

For some of the Ramtek games (Clean Sweep, Baseball, Trivia, Wipe Out), proms have been dumped earlier.

Some folks (myself, siftware, Frank Palazzolo) do have logic schematics of those Ramtek games mentioned above. Both Kevin and Derrick Renaud only have Clean Sweep schematics at this time.

I can make photocopies of some of the paperwork and mail out when needed later.



gregf
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Re: WIP new [Re: pullmoll]
#212806 - 01/30/10 08:00 AM





>Changes in sedit

Thanks for update.



>Parts are now selected from a display of the entire library. Scroll through the display
> with PgUp/PgDn or the mouse wheel.

At first I thought it was a bug, but then noticed how the feature has been changed and how it now works.

This update steered me into finally understanding a bit more about how to sort through parts selection in Pedit.


*blames own crazy Compaq Presario keyboard layout*



>Parts.xml was extended by more parts found in Pong. Pong schematics is 70% done now.
>It's all in one sheet, just like the original schematics.

I like the update because the Midway Winner logic schematics seem to have slight differences, printed somewhat differently than Atari's schematics, that can be covered faster without having to use Pedit to do more additions.

Edited by gregf (01/30/10 08:58 AM)



pullmoll
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WIP 10-01-31 new [Re: pullmoll]
#212889 - 01/31/10 04:07 AM Attachment: sedit_2.png 26 KB (1 downloads)


Another WIP:

Sedit now detects networks, i.e. all of the line connections. It has a Nets display mode where moving the mouse pointer near a line highlights the net and displays the info Net #, Net name (if any) and possible errors.

Possible errors are: Two outputs connected together. Two different names for the same network.

This is in preparation to export a circuit in TTL's *.net format, which is on the agenda as soon as I'm finished with Pong (90% done).

Moving parts or selections is a little faster now, since recalculating the knots is skipped while dragging.

Known problems: When dragging a selection with lines with open ends, a line can become zero length and will remain so. You'll have to select the lone pixel with a rectangle select to get rid of it.

That's all, folks.

Juergen

[ATTACHED IMAGE - CLICK FOR FULL SIZE]

Attachment

Edited by pullmoll (01/31/10 04:12 AM)



gregf
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Re: WIP 10-01-31 new [Re: pullmoll]
#212899 - 01/31/10 11:09 AM



Good update with more parts supported such as the switch logic along with other items.


>This is in preparation to export a circuit in TTL's *.net format, which is on the agenda
> as soon as I'm finished with Pong (90% done).

This will be something with other pong clone schematics later. :-)

Paddle Battle, and Digital Games Model 474 pong clone schematics are online. If the Digital Games Model 474 uses an input selection board that feeds user's game selection setting to main logic board.......exactly like URL's Video Action does, I guess that means Model 474 emulation is out of the question for now.....same goes with Video Action.



pullmoll
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Pong done (?) new [Re: pullmoll]
#212910 - 01/31/10 07:43 PM


Woah.. I think it is done now - almost. Here's a picture of the circuit created with the save to PPM option:
http://img2.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=33_pong.png

I think I need to renumber the resistors and capacitors.. or even better yet: add a auto renumber feature to sedit for certain parts.

Next I'll try to create the TTL pong.net from the schematics. It'll give me some headaches how to handle the analog cruft in there ;-)



casm
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*Jaw hits floor* new [Re: pullmoll]
#212924 - 01/31/10 10:30 PM


This is just awesome. If we ever meet up, the drinks are on me.



italieAdministrator
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Those cool things Twisty is always waiting to happen...<nt> they are happening. new [Re: casm]
#212929 - 01/31/10 11:39 PM





worded funny. hmmph.

Edited by italie (02/01/10 12:05 AM)



R. Belmont
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Re: Pong done (?) new [Re: pullmoll]
#212930 - 01/31/10 11:41 PM


> Next I'll try to create the TTL pong.net from the schematics. It'll give me some
> headaches how to handle the analog cruft in there ;-)

Awesome



Connie
MAME & Retro Game Enthusiast
Reged: 06/19/09
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Re: Pong done (?) new [Re: pullmoll]
#212938 - 02/01/10 01:39 AM


Very nice

Just seeing the architecture reminded me about learning SPICE during my Electronics diploma.
Out of interest, how useful do you think IG/SPICE could be for logic circuit creation/testing in relation to implementing code for MAME, based on an arcade board/s schematic/s?



gregf
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Re: Pong done (?) new [Re: pullmoll]
#212940 - 02/01/10 01:53 AM


> parts.xml 1.26 2 hours Add 82S141

Thanks for adding that. Some Ramtek, Exidy, Atari, Allied Leisure non-cpu video games with proms just waiting for action.


>I think I need to renumber the resistors and capacitors.. or even better yet: add a auto
> renumber feature to sedit for certain parts. Next I'll try to create the TTL pong.net
> from the schematics.

Good luck with this part.

btw: Nintendo WG manual pdf file posted for grabbing. If wanting to see what pcbs it uses, it is listed in the manual.


dirty WG culprit wanted poster image.




StilettoAdministrator
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Re: Pong done (?) new [Re: pullmoll]
#212942 - 02/01/10 02:06 AM


> Woah.. I think it is done now - almost. Here's a picture of the circuit created with
> the save to PPM option:
> http://img2.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=33_pong.png
>
> I think I need to renumber the resistors and capacitors.. or even better yet: add a
> auto renumber feature to sedit for certain parts.
>
> Next I'll try to create the TTL pong.net from the schematics. It'll give me some
> headaches how to handle the analog cruft in there ;-)

Amazing work, Juergen.

- Stiletto



Antny
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Re: Pong done (?) new [Re: pullmoll]
#212946 - 02/01/10 03:01 AM


Thank You

Keep this up and you'll have a league of fans here....oh I'm sorry you already
do. The future looks exciting.



casm
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One possible side effect... new [Re: italie]
#212947 - 02/01/10 03:05 AM


It just occurred to me that this means it's possible to circuit-bend these games. In software. Without repercussions. If it doesn't work or do something interesting, revert and start over. No irreplaceable PCBs are harmed.

I see huge amounts of my time being devoured by this possibility.




italieAdministrator
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There are no words gregf <nt> priceless comes close though. new [Re: gregf]
#212953 - 02/01/10 06:00 AM


> > parts.xml 1.26 2 hours Add 82S141
>
> Thanks for adding that. Some Ramtek, Exidy, Atari, Allied Leisure non-cpu video
> games with proms just waiting for action.
>
>
> > I think I need to renumber the resistors and capacitors.. or even better yet: add a
> auto
> > renumber feature to sedit for certain parts. Next I'll try to create the TTL
> pong.net
> > from the schematics.
>
> Good luck with this part.
>
> btw: Nintendo WG manual pdf file posted for grabbing. If wanting to see what pcbs it
> uses, it is listed in the manual.
>
>
> dirty WG culprit wanted poster image.



StilettoAdministrator
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you can't get mad at a guy who's always on message. *nt* new [Re: italie]
#212954 - 02/01/10 06:06 AM





R. Belmont
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Re: One possible side effect... new [Re: casm]
#212956 - 02/01/10 06:38 AM


> It just occurred to me that this means it's possible to circuit-bend these games. In
> software. Without repercussions. If it doesn't work or do something interesting,
> revert and start over. No irreplaceable PCBs are harmed.

Yeah, although a software simulation will never take into account the analog behaviors of some of the circuitry when "bent" certain ways.



pullmoll
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Re: Pong done (?) new [Re: Connie]
#212957 - 02/01/10 06:43 AM


> Very nice
>
> Just seeing the architecture reminded me about learning SPICE during my Electronics
> diploma.
> Out of interest, how useful do you think IG/SPICE could be for logic circuit
> creation/testing in relation to implementing code for MAME, based on an arcade
> board/s schematic/s?

I think SPICE could help understanding some analog sections of the schematics. It's mostly these analog parts, i.e. transistors with a bunch of resistors and capacitors, that make things complicated, because they have to be emulated like a digital black box in order to be compatible with the TTL part.



Sune
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Re: One possible side effect... new [Re: R. Belmont]
#212959 - 02/01/10 07:03 AM


> > It just occurred to me that this means it's possible to circuit-bend these games.
> In
> > software. Without repercussions. If it doesn't work or do something interesting,
> > revert and start over. No irreplaceable PCBs are harmed.
>
> Yeah, although a software simulation will never take into account the analog
> behaviors of some of the circuitry when "bent" certain ways.

Asteroids makes funny sounds when the tantalum caps in the sound section start to wear out. Would be cool to have some 'age' tweak for discrete components.. wait.. doesn't some of the drivers that use discrete sound have this already?

S



casm
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Re: One possible side effect... new [Re: R. Belmont]
#212965 - 02/01/10 08:22 AM


> Yeah, although a software simulation will never take into account the analog
> behaviors of some of the circuitry when "bent" certain ways.

Understood, and by no means do I think this is a replacement for the real thing. But I am keen to fool around with some of the possibilities this opens up - it's all idle curiosity right now, but I think some neat (if not necessarily terribly-useful) results might be obtained.

One of the things that really intrigues me is seeing how analogue's infinite adjustment across a set range vs. digital's fixed steps between two points plays out in software - and if/how that analogue resolution implemented in digital can be improved while maintaining usability as host processing power grows.



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Re: -insert shameless gregf plug here- new [Re: gregf]
#213033 - 02/02/10 12:17 AM





StilettoAdministrator
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bump again *nt* new [Re: CrapBoardSoftware]
#243111 - 01/08/11 08:11 PM





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Re: bump again *nt* new [Re: Stiletto]
#280748 - 03/28/12 05:59 PM




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