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mogli
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What do the analog controls settings equate to?
#234593 - 09/25/10 05:33 AM


I couldn't find this at MAMEDEV, nor in the MAME32/UI help, nor online.

Higher values of sensitivity = less travel of the dial/wheel/etc. I haven't been able to tell - is this the same for digital speed and digital centering?



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Derrick Renaud
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Re: What do the analog controls settings equate to? new [Re: mogli]
#234612 - 09/25/10 03:45 PM


Sensitivity is the scale factor to apply to the analog value. 100% means every OS analog change is sent to MAME. When using a trackball with a mouse encoder, you generally set it to 25% because a mouse counts 4x then the original arcade hardware. Another example is using a 1200 (300 teeth * 4) count spinner to replace the 72 count spinner used in Tempest. 72/1200*100 = 6%

Digital speed is used when you are using digital buttons to simulate the original analog control. This is how many analog values to change every frame. The sensitivity is also applied to this. So you generally set the sensitivity to 100% unless you want fractional increments each frame. eg Speed = 5; Sensitivity = 25% gives 5*0.25 = 1.25 analog change every frame. A special case of Speed = 0 gives 1*Sensitivity analog change per button press.

Centering is used to simulate the auto-centering of a analog device when using digital buttons. This is the speed the analog value returns to center/rest when there is no button pressed during that frame. The analog change being calculated the same way as Digital speed. When set to 0, then no centering is applied.



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Re: What do the analog controls settings equate to? new [Re: Derrick Renaud]
#234614 - 09/25/10 04:28 PM


> Sensitivity is the scale factor to apply to the analog value. 100% means every OS
> analog change is sent to MAME. When using a trackball with a mouse encoder, you
> generally set it to 25% because a mouse counts 4x then the original arcade hardware.
> Another example is using a 1200 (300 teeth * 4) count spinner to replace the 72 count
> spinner used in Tempest. 72/1200*100 = 6%
>
> Digital speed is used when you are using digital buttons to simulate the original
> analog control. This is how many analog values to change every frame. The sensitivity
> is also applied to this. So you generally set the sensitivity to 100% unless you want
> fractional increments each frame. eg Speed = 5; Sensitivity = 25% gives 5*0.25 = 1.25
> analog change every frame. A special case of Speed = 0 gives 1*Sensitivity analog
> change per button press.
>
> Centering is used to simulate the auto-centering of a analog device when using
> digital buttons. This is the speed the analog value returns to center/rest when there
> is no button pressed during that frame. The analog change being calculated the same
> way as Digital speed. When set to 0, then no centering is applied.

Is there a wiki somehow for MAME-related stuff like this? And no, "the source" doesn't count.



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Re: What do the analog controls settings equate to? new [Re: mogli]
#234648 - 09/26/10 01:45 AM


This is Off Topic a bit but kinda has to do with Analog(ish) control. If there were some way to get this on an 8-way digital control...

Up/Diagonal = 33% Left or Right
Left or Right = 66%
Down/Diagonal = 99%

Or 100%. If there were some way to set this - I think it could be useful for people that don't have an analog controller.

If someone is using the up/down for gear shifting -that would probably make things less easy.



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Thanks new [Re: Derrick Renaud]
#234835 - 09/27/10 10:26 PM


> Sensitivity is the scale factor to apply to the analog value. 100% means every OS
> analog change is sent to MAME. When using a trackball with a mouse encoder, you
> generally set it to 25% because a mouse counts 4x then the original arcade hardware.
> Another example is using a 1200 (300 teeth * 4) count spinner to replace the 72 count
> spinner used in Tempest. 72/1200*100 = 6%
>
> Digital speed is used when you are using digital buttons to simulate the original
> analog control. This is how many analog values to change every frame. The sensitivity
> is also applied to this. So you generally set the sensitivity to 100% unless you want
> fractional increments each frame. eg Speed = 5; Sensitivity = 25% gives 5*0.25 = 1.25
> analog change every frame. A special case of Speed = 0 gives 1*Sensitivity analog
> change per button press.
>
> Centering is used to simulate the auto-centering of a analog device when using
> digital buttons. This is the speed the analog value returns to center/rest when there
> is no button pressed during that frame. The analog change being calculated the same
> way as Digital speed. When set to 0, then no centering is applied.

Excellent, seeing the numbers makes it easier to understand. This should be in a readme or wiki or something.

S



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Re: What do the analog controls settings equate to? new [Re: Tomu Breidah]
#234838 - 09/27/10 10:51 PM


> This is Off Topic a bit but kinda has to do with Analog(ish) control. If there were
> some way to get this on an 8-way digital control...

Yo mogli, I'm really happy for you, and I'mma let you finish your thread, but 8-way digital inputs are the best of all time.








Antny
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Another question new [Re: Derrick Renaud]
#234846 - 09/28/10 12:22 AM


Hey Derrick,

Is there something I'm missing with analogue controls. I try to use my Xbox controller for Windows for games like Sea Wolf, light gun games, etc. and I cannot the analogue stick to work correctly. I set the sensitivity to the lowest setting and it seems to still be WAY to sensitive. I just touch the stick and the cursor goes from extreme left/right. I'm sure it's just something I'm not understanding.

Thanks



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Re: Another question new [Re: Antny]
#234848 - 09/28/10 12:37 AM


> Hey Derrick,
>
> Is there something I'm missing with analogue controls. I try to use my Xbox
> controller for Windows for games like Sea Wolf, light gun games, etc. and I cannot
> the analogue stick to work correctly. I set the sensitivity to the lowest setting and
> it seems to still be WAY to sensitive. I just touch the stick and the cursor goes
> from extreme left/right. I'm sure it's just something I'm not understanding.

Make sure the analog axes on your controller are mapped to "(Foo) Analog", and not to "(Foo) Inc/Dec". The "Inc/Dec" mappings are only for simulating an analog axis using a digital input.

This really needs to be in the FAQ...

Edited by AWJ (09/28/10 12:37 AM)



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Re: Another question new [Re: AWJ]
#234855 - 09/28/10 01:39 AM


Thanks AWJ. Yeah I do have the stick mapped to x-axis analogue (Sea Wolf II). I have the sensitivity set to "1" in analogue controls and stll the stick is still useless. Just touch it a little and it goes to extreme left/right. I can't seem to set it where I get a smooth movement.

Edited by Antny (09/28/10 01:39 AM)



Trebor
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Food Fight & Sinistar new [Re: mogli]
#234858 - 09/28/10 02:00 AM


I would handle and set these games differently than you would say for a driving game or flight game. Typically I use a setting of '200' for X/Y Sensitivity and Autocentering speeds. Works great with my HotRod SE.

Incidently, there appears to be some missing/music/melody in Sinistar when the game first begins and also throughout the game when you start a new life, when it displays how many pieces Sinistar contains and how many Sinibombs you possess.

-Trebor



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Re: Another question new [Re: Antny]
#234893 - 09/28/10 02:28 PM


> Thanks AWJ. Yeah I do have the stick mapped to x-axis analogue (Sea Wolf II). I have
> the sensitivity set to "1" in analogue controls and stll the stick is still useless.
> Just touch it a little and it goes to extreme left/right. I can't seem to set it
> where I get a smooth movement.

I'll take a look. IIRC Seawolf 1 uses a positional control which maps the full range into individual steps. Not sure what 2 uses.

I just closed the pool. for me for MAME.




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Re: What do the analog controls settings equate to? new [Re: CrapBoardSoftware]
#234919 - 09/28/10 06:09 PM


> Is there a wiki somehow for MAME-related stuff like this? And no, "the source"
> doesn't count.

The FAQ section here is intended to be that.



CrapBoardSoftware
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Re: What do the analog controls settings equate to? new [Re: R. Belmont]
#234933 - 09/28/10 08:26 PM


> > Is there a wiki somehow for MAME-related stuff like this? And no, "the source"
> > doesn't count.
>
> The FAQ section here is intended to be that.

Ok, but where can we add the (any) posted information?



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Re: What do the analog controls settings equate to? new [Re: CrapBoardSoftware]
#234935 - 09/28/10 08:59 PM


> > > Is there a wiki somehow for MAME-related stuff like this? And no, "the source"
> > > doesn't count.
> >
> > The FAQ section here is intended to be that.
>
> Ok, but where can we add the (any) posted information?

You want an account, ask Aaron. It's open to anyone who's sufficiently motivated and known to be reliable.

I know Grull Osso, Tafoid, me, and most of MAMEDEV have accounts. If I get time, I'll add it.

- Stiletto



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Re: What do the analog controls settings equate to? new [Re: Stiletto]
#234940 - 09/28/10 09:23 PM


> You want an account, ask Aaron. It's open to anyone who's sufficiently motivated and
> known to be reliable.
>
> I know Grull Osso, Tafoid, me, and most of MAMEDEV have accounts. If I get time, I'll
> add it.
>
> - Stiletto

No thanks, i don't want an account. I would likte contribute when i'm in the mood, without any additional registering. Like the 1000 monkeys tasks...



Antny
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Re: Another question new [Re: Derrick Renaud]
#234950 - 09/28/10 11:15 PM


Sorry Derrick, I didn't mean to create you any work. It's probably my lack of understanding rather than a problem with MAME. I find the whole analogue controls/settings thingy a little confusing......



StevieWunderful
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Re: Another question new [Re: Antny]
#234967 - 09/29/10 04:31 AM


You might consider asking over at:

www.arcadecontrols.com

on the message boards.


Something to note... is that xbox style mini analog sticks are very poor when it comes to control. A flight stick
will yield better results, because you have better
physical leverage. (and many times, better positional
sensors)

Your controller may have some sort of sensitivity
settings that you have to adjust in windows. Or at very
least, calibrate it in windows. (is the driver even loaded
for the pad?) It could also be acting as a digital
joypad (need to press a button to switch modes), or
it could be acting out as "Mouse mode". Again, modes
needing proper setting in the custom software, or the
correct button pressed.

Finally, for the sake of argument, certain analog games
used gearing in the controls. This would give them
superior accuracy, as it would turn the pot (sensor)
further distance. Depending on the type of pot used, and
if there is or is not gearing... (and even, in the case
of Sinistar, you do not have a specialized rubber-x
center spring...) you may have trouble playing certain
games well.

There are ways to interface real arcade controls to mame
in many cases. However, on some games, like 720, mame
does not allow a person to use a real controller at all,
as the driver is hacked up, with no compromises available
for those people who actually appreciate that/those games.

Anyways, best of luck.



StevieWunderful
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Re: Another question new [Re: StevieWunderful]
#234969 - 09/29/10 04:44 AM


Also, I believe sometimes you have to delete your old
ini / nvram files, and let mame create a new set. Old
files can cause problems with new mame versions.

And make sure that your controller deadzones are set
well. If the deadzone is too large, there wont be enough
space for good range of motion. I believe there is a
setting called saturation as well. I have not messed with
mame in while, because it wont do what I need it to do,
to enjoy certain games correctly. No reason to play when
you cant control it well. ahh well... maybe by the time
Im retired, they will fix it, and I can finally build a
good control panel.



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Re: What do the analog controls settings equate to? new [Re: CrapBoardSoftware]
#234973 - 09/29/10 06:32 AM


> No thanks, i don't want an account. I would likte contribute when i'm in the mood,
> without any additional registering. Like the 1000 monkeys tasks...

Well, I'm in no position of authority, but my guess is that won't happen due to spammers and vandalism. You know the sk3n3...

- Stiletto



CrapBoardSoftware
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Re: What do the analog controls settings equate to? new [Re: Stiletto]
#234983 - 09/29/10 08:02 AM


> > No thanks, i don't want an account. I would likte contribute when i'm in the mood,
> > without any additional registering. Like the 1000 monkeys tasks...
>
> Well, I'm in no position of authority, but my guess is that won't happen due to
> spammers and vandalism. You know the sk3n3...
>
> - Stiletto

Exactly. And no one has the time for a peer review



keshbach1
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Re: Another question new [Re: StevieWunderful]
#235018 - 09/29/10 07:28 PM


Sinistar uses a 49-way joystick. (No pots, just a bunch of light sensors saying I'm on/off.) It's not an analog joystick though I guess the input system treats it that way?



Kevin Eshbach



mogli
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Re: Food Fight & Sinistar new [Re: Trebor]
#235061 - 09/30/10 12:27 AM


I had the same experience when I got into MAME and re-found Sinistar. It has to do with when you first coin up relative to the finishing of the game checks upon loading. Wait a little longer to coin up, and those sounds should be there.

> Incidently, there appears to be some missing/music/melody in Sinistar when the game
> first begins and also throughout the game when you start a new life, when it displays
> how many pieces Sinistar contains and how many Sinibombs you possess.
>
> -Trebor



Consider it high comedy....sincere tragedy....whatever...don't take it personally.

The Culture




mogli
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Re: What do the analog controls settings equate to? new [Re: Gatinho]
#235062 - 09/30/10 12:31 AM


I'm not sure what you're really meaning here. Nor am I sure I understand what TOM was getting at. What's the different between using a button and a digital stick? (Except that the latter has greater travel....)

> > This is Off Topic a bit but kinda has to do with Analog(ish) control. If there were
> > some way to get this on an 8-way digital control...
>
> Yo mogli, I'm really happy for you, and I'mma let you finish your thread, but 8-way
> digital inputs are the best of all time.



Consider it high comedy....sincere tragedy....whatever...don't take it personally.

The Culture




mogli
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Re: What do the analog controls settings equate to? new [Re: R. Belmont]
#235063 - 09/30/10 12:33 AM


The problem in these kinds of cases is that it's a FAQ rather than a wiki or some other kind of documentation thingy.


> > Is there a wiki somehow for MAME-related stuff like this? And no, "the source"
> > doesn't count.
>
> The FAQ section here is intended to be that.



Consider it high comedy....sincere tragedy....whatever...don't take it personally.

The Culture




Trebor
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Re: Food Fight & Sinistar new [Re: mogli]
#235070 - 09/30/10 01:47 AM


> I had the same experience when I got into MAME and re-found Sinistar. It has to do
> with when you first coin up relative to the finishing of the game checks upon
> loading. Wait a little longer to coin up, and those sounds should be there.
>

Much obliged - it worked. I experience the same with Bump'N Jump/Burgertime, but at least those games give you 'tone' cues...lol.

-Trebor



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Re: What do the analog controls settings equate to? new [Re: mogli]
#235072 - 09/30/10 03:34 AM


I was just drawing a parallel between TOM's thread-hijack and Kanye's microphone Hijack in a silly way.



> I'm not sure what you're really meaning here. Nor am I sure I understand what TOM was
> getting at. What's the different between using a button and a digital stick? (Except
> that the latter has greater travel....)
>
> > > This is Off Topic a bit but kinda has to do with Analog(ish) control. If there
> were
> > > some way to get this on an 8-way digital control...
> >
> > Yo mogli, I'm really happy for you, and I'mma let you finish your thread, but 8-way
> > digital inputs are the best of all time.



mogli
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Re: Food Fight & Sinistar new [Re: Trebor]
#235096 - 09/30/10 06:45 AM


Out-standing. You're welcome. When it happened to me, I also came here to inquire, and was humbled.


> > I had the same experience when I got into MAME and re-found Sinistar. It has to do
> > with when you first coin up relative to the finishing of the game checks upon
> > loading. Wait a little longer to coin up, and those sounds should be there.
> >
>
> Much obliged - it worked. I experience the same with Bump'N Jump/Burgertime, but at
> least those games give you 'tone' cues...lol.
>
> -Trebor



mogli
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Re: What do the analog controls settings equate to? new [Re: Derrick Renaud]
#235097 - 09/30/10 06:48 AM


Okay, so (in the case of using a spinner for something like PP, in particular here a Tornado Spinner) does that mean higher settings of digital speed and autocenter make for a tighter response?

This seems to be the case, anyways, but not always.

Secondarily, why does older MAME have both features, while newer MAME has only digital speed?


> Sensitivity is the scale factor to apply to the analog value. 100% means every OS
> analog change is sent to MAME. When using a trackball with a mouse encoder, you
> generally set it to 25% because a mouse counts 4x then the original arcade hardware.
> Another example is using a 1200 (300 teeth * 4) count spinner to replace the 72 count
> spinner used in Tempest. 72/1200*100 = 6%
>
> Digital speed is used when you are using digital buttons to simulate the original
> analog control. This is how many analog values to change every frame. The sensitivity
> is also applied to this. So you generally set the sensitivity to 100% unless you want
> fractional increments each frame. eg Speed = 5; Sensitivity = 25% gives 5*0.25 = 1.25
> analog change every frame. A special case of Speed = 0 gives 1*Sensitivity analog
> change per button press.
>
> Centering is used to simulate the auto-centering of a analog device when using
> digital buttons. This is the speed the analog value returns to center/rest when there
> is no button pressed during that frame. The analog change being calculated the same
> way as Digital speed. When set to 0, then no centering is applied.



StilettoAdministrator
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Re: What do the analog controls settings equate to? new [Re: mogli]
#235147 - 09/30/10 06:22 PM


> The problem in these kinds of cases is that it's a FAQ rather than a wiki or some
> other kind of documentation thingy.

The FAQ is a Wiki. It's not open-access though. It's pretty close, but you still need to ask for an account.

- Stiletto



Derrick Renaud
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Re: What do the analog controls settings equate to? new [Re: mogli]
#235194 - 10/01/10 04:10 AM


> Okay, so (in the case of using a spinner for something like PP, in particular here a
> Tornado Spinner) does that mean higher settings of digital speed and autocenter make
> for a tighter response?

Huh? Higher numbers mean more movement per frame = faster movement.

> Secondarily, why does older MAME have both features, while newer MAME has only
> digital speed?

Older versions showed Centering even when not used. Newer versions remove it if it is not needed by the control, eg a spinner that goes in circles and does not auto center on a real control.



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Re: Another question new [Re: keshbach1]
#235204 - 10/01/10 05:58 AM



Yes, Mame changes the input to equivalent in analog joystick pot input.

Therefore, you can not hook up a true 49 way joystick
with mame without a hardware hack that changes the optical
signals into equivalent analog pot readings.

But, in Sinistar's case, its even more special. Sinistar
uses a special rubber "X" shaped centering system.
Most analog joysticks use a single metal center spring,
or two springs (one for each axis).

With a typical analog joystick, it requires a certain
amount of force to break free of the center. That same
amount of pressure will be the same, no matter how far
the stick is pushed away from the center - partly due
to the sticks leverage.

With a sinistar "rubber-x", each of the 4 legs of the "X"
is tied into each other. The further you move away from the center... the more pressure is required. So, it gets harder and harder to move out to the farthest edges. This makes it 10x easier to control the ship.

(As you stretch 1 leg of the rubber X, the other 2 are also pulled... thus you get 3x as much resistance... which multiples the further the main directional leg is stretched)

With Sinistar, you have to balance your speed and direction very acurately, going very slow and picking up
the small slower moving crystals... to Very fast, to avoid
enemy attacks & chasing after swift moving crystals.

With a normal analog stick, its far too easy to
accidentally push the stick too far, and thus you overshoot
a crystal by going too fast - blowing right by it. Even
controlling the ships vector is harder without the extra
resistance. (and the added leverage and huge clumsy
handle)

Another advantage of the X system, is that there is almost
no resistance in the centermost area. In a typical analog,
you have a very hard resistance in the centermost area,
making it very hard to maintain highly detailed accuracy
in that area. To combat this, programmers make a certain
deadzone area, as well as programming the game to weight
the centermost readings as much weaker than the mid to end
readings.


Now, If Mame had the option to select "Arcade Control Mode", it would allow people to use a Real Sinistar controller. You would see manufacturers like Ramcontrols.com remake the control for the masses of fans, as well as to repair the original machines.

True pot analog control is good, with a modified analog
joystick... But, is it really arcade accurate? Its certainly
acceptable compared to other travesties, such as
the game "720", which Nothing can control properly with.
(trying to do fast spins well with an analong stick is
ridiculous - even with the spring removed)

(( The game needs the dual dial input option, with the 2nd
calibration dial operational. People have no problem with
making and buying spinners. A simple modification of a
spinner can be easily made to be able to read the
calibration input. Heck, Ramcontrols is already working
on duplicating new 720 controllers... but nobody
could use them except the machine owners.. cause mame
simply does not allow the real controller to be input... )

It should not be up to the users and manufacturers to
develop hardware workarounds for mames substandard
and inaccurate input schemes. Nor should the users
have to be programmers and be forced to compile in
new code on an individual basis.



StevieWunderful
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Re: What do the analog controls settings equate to? new [Re: Tomu Breidah]
#235211 - 10/01/10 06:23 AM


Its really not a good idea, and certainly, if you really
like to play the game, then you will just pickup a cheap
analog controller. Even if its a $12 gameplay with analog
thumb pads.

Imagine this:

You have to control a Marble with a Joytick. Both
direction and speed need analog control... but you want
to try to use a digital joystick.

If you adjust the speed and direction to a low setting...
you can control the marble well to navigate tight sharp
turns without falling off the edges.

But then how do you make the marble go fast suddenly, so
that you can quickly escape the enemy that jumps right at
you?

If you adjust the setting for high speed, you can dodge
things easily.. but when you get to the part of the game
where you have to be very careful... you will be going too
fast, and fly off the level over and over again.

If you provide a set level of acceleration... it
still does not help. If a wall was about to fall on you,
and the acceleration ramp was too slow.. you could never
escape the wall from crushing you.

If the acceleration ramp was too quick, then you again
have the problem of lacking fine control needed for tight
and accurate steering & slow speeds.

I know all this, because I was helping to develop a
Marble Madness sequel. The programmer never could make
the realization that Digital control in such a game was a
stupid idea.

I had designed a brilliant digital compromise, which would
allow a player to use a button as sort of a virtual roll
of the trackball. If you tapped the button rapidly, it
would accelerate quickly. If you pulsed slowly, you stayed
moving slowly. You were not allowed to hold the button
down like a gas pedal, because that would again require an
acceleration ramp. In my method, it was truly analog.
Though of course never as accurate as a real trackball..
and of course there was no real fix for missing steering
detail. There was an idea for an analog steering simulation
formula.. but it didnt work well in practice. (to be fair,
the programmer didnt follow the design to spec, which might
have at least made it at least acceptably decent)

Anyways, as you can see.. controlling a Marble is
no easy feat with a digital controller... and a game
like marble madness is very easy compared to the Insane
difficulty, speed, accuracy of a game like Sinistar.
Even with perfect arcade controls, that game will Stomp
all over you. (I think my best was 5th level, and that
was a miracle to get there, for me)



RdW
MAME Fan
Reged: 02/13/05
Posts: 205
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stfu new [Re: StevieWunderful]
#235219 - 10/01/10 09:21 AM



> It should not be up to the users and manufacturers to
> develop hardware workarounds for mames substandard
> and inaccurate input schemes. Nor should the users
> have to be programmers and be forced to compile in
> new code on an individual basis.

This is straight insulting.

Annoying people like you do their best to kill any motivation of the mamdevs.



Tomu Breidah
No Problems, Only Solutions
Reged: 08/14/04
Posts: 6523
Loc: Neither here, nor there.
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Re: What do the analog controls settings equate to? new [Re: StevieWunderful]
#235240 - 10/01/10 05:11 PM


Yeah, I see your point. But I meant for driving/racing games where you only have left and right.

As it stands now - if someone were to use a digital control in a driving game... To "mimic" analog control you have to press left or right very quickly or slowly -repeatedly.



StevieWunderful
Reged: 11/19/04
Posts: 115
Loc: NY
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Re: stfu new [Re: RdW]
#235248 - 10/01/10 06:25 PM



I guess you are not a 720 fan either. Im not a huge
fan, but my brother is... and he would love to be able to play it the way it was designed to be played.

What IS Really Insulting, is that it CANT be played the way
it was designed.

Its a SLAP IN THE FACE to the actual game developers who designed and built these awesome games... for which there would be no Mame, if it were not for them.

Do you really think the Devs dont know the input system
is a mess?



SmitdoggAdministrator
Reged: 09/18/03
Posts: 16203
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Re: stfu new [Re: StevieWunderful]
#235250 - 10/01/10 06:48 PM


I haven't read most of your whines here but if you're talking about 720 using the real 720 joystick via MAME, then your home arcade building obsession has taken over the part of your brain usually assigned to common sense.

Edit: oh wait, you are. Here's a clue: Only a tiny little niche market you somehow found has ever even heard of Ramcontrols or their stupid future plans and the amount of people converting, I mean destroying a real 720 cab control into MAME is so minute that nobody cares.



Derrick Renaud
Discrete Coder
Reged: 10/18/03
Posts: 438
Loc: The Local Pub
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Re: stfu new [Re: Smitdogg]
#235257 - 10/01/10 07:36 PM


Still waiting for xiaou2 to send me $50,000 to work on the input system for him.

Heck still waiting for him to do something about this:
Video Pinball (Atari 1979) In the works (xiaou2).
http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/sho...part=1&vc=1

Damn those people who never get around to doing what you want in their spare time.



It is amazing though that while some people try to help, others, well, I'm not quite sure what xiaou2 thinks he will acomplish with his rants, other then to make sure no one ever works on the input system.



StevieWunderful
Reged: 11/19/04
Posts: 115
Loc: NY
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Re: stfu new [Re: Smitdogg]
#235265 - 10/01/10 08:23 PM


First Off, the majority of people over at ArcadeControls.com
do not destroy cabs, unless they are completely generic
and or beyond restoration.

In fact, there are plenty of people who have Restored
cabs to factory level glory.

The few who have modded cabs, have done so in such a
way as to be able to revert the thing back. IE: Not
a permanent change.

Id say BYOAC has actually SAVED many cabs from being in
a landfill. Because most Opps just hack cabs to bits, and
eventually toss them into a fire pit. I know, because
Ive seen it.

2nd, people who are actually INTERESTED IN 720, WILL SEEK
OUT A CONTROLLER! Which means they will find Ramcontrols
in a heartbeat!

Same as anyone who wants to play Starwars, will find and
get one of their brand new Starwars controllers.

You seem to be under the Delusion that people who are
interested in Mame are only a bunch of Programmers,
or only like Mappy.

What do you think happened to all the people who actually
Played these games in their youths?! They still exist,
collect, and recreate their passions from Scratch,
over at BYOAC.

I can assure you, there are a lot more people out there
using real arcade controls for mame than the small
'Niche' you believe to be so. With more and more people
joining the club every day.

And if you used your Brain, you would realize that if
Ramcontrols knows it can get mame people to buy its
repo's, it has more certainty of producing more and more
rare/extinct/destroyed arcade controls.

How many Pacman 4 way joysticks do you think still
exists that are actually USABLE? The Real controllers
are well based to death. They are designed to wear out.
Yet, they are far superior in control and feel than any
other new 4 way stick.

What will a Ms Pacman owner do once his controls are
toast? Put in a POS happs? Imagine, if Ramcontrols made
Brand spanking new controllers for install?! That
would be the Best... And, its very possible.

Its shitty attitudes like this reply, that really ticks
me off. Im not the only one. There are hundreds of thousands of people who feel the same way... they just dont
speak up about it.



SmitdoggAdministrator
Reged: 09/18/03
Posts: 16203
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Re: stfu new [Re: StevieWunderful]
#235267 - 10/01/10 08:38 PM


The market for using second hand real 720 controllers out of busted cabs is absolutely as niche as it gets. If you looked up niche market it the dictionary, this might as well be in as an example. And in fact, it would be an extremely small niche market. Calling it niche would be an ego boost for this minuscule group of go-getters.

You're wrong about "people who are actually interested in 720". It was a childhood favorite of mine yet I'm not seeking out this option. I just want it to play on typical PC hardware. I wouldn't complain if there was a 720orig switch added to mame.ini that let you hook up a real controller, but I wouldn't put on whatever this public display of yourself is that you are doing either.

Again wrong with the Starwars comment. Lots of people want to play it and play it in MAME with a mouse. There's a niche market for these controllers with Ramcontrols or whatever they call themselves seek to fill.

I'm not under any delusions. I like how you think I'm the one out of line here yet you're the one pissing people off, including the people who could help your nichie cause.



StevieWunderful
Reged: 11/19/04
Posts: 115
Loc: NY
Send PM


Re: stfu new [Re: Derrick Renaud]
#235268 - 10/01/10 08:44 PM


The Video Pinball artwork turned out to be a lot more
of a challenge than expected.

For one, it is art that is intended to be lit in Blacklight.
This changes the entire look of the artwork, AND, no scanner
will pick up blacklight. You would have to somehow
modify a scanner with a miniature blacklight bulb - and it
MIGHT work. But, you are not going to find such a bulb.

So that leaves Photographs. However, I dont happen to have
a very good camera. In fact, most cameras will have a very
hard time capturing good detail in low light. You end up
with blur and loss of detail & color depth. Not to mention,
with a camera, you have perspective issues. Meaning, you will need about 100 photos to get enough data for a
non-perspective stitch. (the art is NOT FLAT! )

Then you have the problem that mame does not display
3d planes. The art is NOT FLAT! It has foam parts stuck
on it that are 1cm thick. A typical scanner cant even scan
both layers at once... which would mean you would have to
destroy the artwork to scan both layers.

Next, mame is set to display it as "Flat". Which means
you wont even see the artwork the way it was meant to be
seen. Therefore, making it just about pointless to even
do in the first place.

(just about as pointless as getting that gun game smitt
is interested it... cause that game has real cups that
fly apart via strings (its not a video image) - and mame,
as far as Ive heard, has no intent to simulate such a thing)

Just as it was initially Pointless for me to scan in the
Discs of Tron artwork Ages ago, when mame would only allow
an image with 256 colors. Yet, I did hold on to the images
for like 3yrs or so, when mame finally adapted to support
16 bit color art.

For me, its not about the lack of motivation however. It
the lack of a $1000 camera, and the desire to do the job
right.

For the Artwork to be shown as it should, in all its
blacklight glory, as well as in its true intended
perspective.

While I Do have a lead on a possible Photographer to help
out... Ive not done so, more or less, because "if" I can
get him to do it.. it has to be a one shot deal. I cant
expect the guy to spend several hrs on something he has no
interest it.

So, send me a $1000 camera, Ill do the deed and send the
work back for free, as intended. I dont charge $50,000
for something that should be preserved for history.
(even though admittedly, Im not much of a fan of
Video Pinball)



SmitdoggAdministrator
Reged: 09/18/03
Posts: 16203
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Re: stfu new [Re: StevieWunderful]
#235269 - 10/01/10 08:57 PM


I can't really tell what the deal is with Quick&Crash because I've never played one. It looks like it's video in the background or not? It would be possible to simulate some other stuff. It has been discussed before that Golly Ghost, for example, could be set to use video or a ton of frames for door openings/closings.

If you're never going to do anything with Video Pinball as far as a perfectionist studio setup then just scan it and let other people try to simulate the black light and angle changes.



StevieWunderful
Reged: 11/19/04
Posts: 115
Loc: NY
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Re: stfu new [Re: Smitdogg]
#235274 - 10/01/10 09:42 PM


The market for using second hand real 720 controllers out of busted cabs is absolutely as niche as it gets. If you looked up niche market it the dictionary, this might as well be in as an example. And in fact, it would be an extremely small niche market. Calling it niche would be an ego boost for this minuscule group of go-getters.

---

-You really do not think in realistic terms. When
A MFG like Atari made Videos... they didnt make 500.
They made THOUSANDS. As in like 50,000... 200,000.
The games were all over the states, multiples in every
city, and even all over the world.

Where do you think all those machines ended up?
In hands of the public. People who liked the game, have
the game. 720 was not the kind of cabinet that was easily
convertible... and so its more than likely that there are
more complete 720s out there than many other well known
classics.

And anyone who has one, is going to want to replace their
worn out controller with a brand spanking new one. Especially considering that the controllers have some
very wear prone parts inside of them.

---

You're wrong about "people who are actually interested in 720". It was a childhood favorite of mine yet I'm not seeking out this option. I just want it to play on typical PC hardware. I wouldn't complain if there was a 720orig switch added to mame.ini that let you hook up a real controller, but I wouldn't put on whatever this public display of yourself is that you are doing either.

---

- Its obvious that you were not a big fan then. Because
there are big fans out there, that Do invest in real
controllers.

- And if you say you wouldnt complain about not being
able to control a certain game... then either you really
dont have passion for a game that uses unique controlls..
or you are fearful a dev will Quit the Skene. Or Guru
will threaten to charge you $10,000 in interest on money
borrowed.

- 720 is just One of the MANY games that dont control
correct in Mame... for which options are very poor for
those of us who are actually passionate about playing the
games.

----

Again wrong with the Starwars comment. Lots of people want to play it and play it in MAME with a mouse. There's a niche market for these controllers with Ramcontrols or whatever they call themselves seek to fill.

- To this date, there is Huge demand for Starwars
controllers. Yes, people Do play it with a mouse... but
many of those same people are not content, and want to
buy the real controller... and in fact ARE buying it. The
price is a somewhat steep $300, not including the needed
interface... and yet, its selling out faster than the guy
can get a string of them made.

Do you realize how many Starwars cabinets there were
produced in the USA ALONE?! Its probably one of the most
popular games ever made! People Love the custom controller,
and nothing else really feels and controls as good as it,
and thus, eventually, even if 1/10 the people who liked it
as a kid bought it... added to the Cabinets that need them,
and Ramcontrols will probably be selling them for Ages.

BTW - What do you think happens when a person cant get
parts for his cabinet to make the game play correctly?
Ding Ding Ding... it gets Parted out. Or trashed
completely. New parts = longer preservation of actual
games.

Also, many MGFs made custom pc parts, such as custom
spinners, which means people are not hacking real tron
panels to get the spinner. And if they did originally do
that, they can now sell that panel back into the hands of
a cabinet owner.

---

I'm not under any delusions. I like how you think I'm the one out of line here yet you're the one pissing people off, including the people who could help your nichie cause.

---

Really? Cause the people who seem to be doing the
money collection, and the work on preservation, dont seem
to care one bit. Which to anyone with passion for these
games, is Infuriating. Including collectors, as well as
again... the designers of the originals.

Quite simply, the people who Do have passion, Do the work.
Im not going to walk on eggshells just cause someone who
lacks passion, might quit. Im certainly not the only
one person in this world who actually has a passion for
the old games. And certainly not the only person who
is ticked off that you cant play any of mames driving
games with a real shifter... let alone all the other hacks
that screw with controls, or limit the real output/inputs
of the machines.


And BTW - Jeff Anderson, a collector and person who runs
VideoTopia, sold that Namco shooting gun to the local
museum. People like him actually have passion for games.
But people like him, are not always very happy with people
from the Mame collective... for reasons stated above, as
well as poor attitudes dished out.

Devs seem to have this idea that people who like the old
games are a tiny group. Its hilarious. Arcade games have
been out there for decades, to all generations of people
all over the world. In my small city, we had like 5
large busy arcades. Ive played just about every classic
ever made, and even some of the lesser known machines.

In this city alone, I know like 15 collectors.. many of
which own ENTIRE BASEMENTS FILLED WITH ARCADE / PINBALL
MACHINES! In fact, when I worked at the arcade in the mall,
I also Sold machines to the public.

And Pinball? An even smaller more expensive hobby... which
is supposed to be "Dead" and I know many pinball collects
here, including myself, that have more than one machine.

These machines just didnt all vanish, nor did the
Passionate players throughout all the years. And if Mame
made more of an Effort towards such passionate people,
you would see a 100x rise in donation levels.

The saying goes... You scratch my back, and Ill scratch
yours.

But pissing all over people by telling them what they
cant do... giving them a hard time when they ask for
something simple...and poor/no efforts made to rectify
poor areas of preservation... along with threats and
bad attitudes from people like "Guru"... and Donation
levels are going to stay pathetic.



SmitdoggAdministrator
Reged: 09/18/03
Posts: 16203
Send PM


Re: stfu new [Re: StevieWunderful]
#235275 - 10/01/10 10:03 PM


> The market for using second hand real 720 controllers out of busted cabs is
> absolutely as niche as it gets. If you looked up niche market it the dictionary, this
> might as well be in as an example. And in fact, it would be an extremely small niche
> market. Calling it niche would be an ego boost for this minuscule group of
> go-getters.
>
> ---
>
> -You really do not think in realistic terms. When
> A MFG like Atari made Videos... they didnt make 500.
> They made THOUSANDS. As in like 50,000... 200,000.
> The games were all over the states, multiples in every
> city, and even all over the world.


I'm on the arcade sections of eBay and other auction sites almost every day a.k.a. arcade junk yards. These 720 controllers being sold is quite rare and the amount of people buying them to put in MAME cabs is quite rare. If you want some advice, wait for this new one to start being produced, ask Derrick to forgive you for being an asshole, and buy one and send it to him and ask him to add support for it with a switch. That or keep acting like a little brat.


> Where do you think all those machines ended up?
> In hands of the public. People who liked the game, have
> the game. 720 was not the kind of cabinet that was easily
> convertible... and so its more than likely that there are
> more complete 720s out there than many other well known
> classics.


There are not 100,000 of these controllers out there waiting to be picked up by MAME people.


> And anyone who has one, is going to want to replace their
> worn out controller with a brand spanking new one. Especially considering that the
> controllers have some
> very wear prone parts inside of them.


Yes if they can find one for sale, to fix up their original cab, they would buy one. But that has nothing to do with MAME.


> You're wrong about "people who are actually interested in 720". It was a childhood
> favorite of mine yet I'm not seeking out this option. I just want it to play on
> typical PC hardware. I wouldn't complain if there was a 720orig switch added to
> mame.ini that let you hook up a real controller, but I wouldn't put on whatever this
> public display of yourself is that you are doing either.
>
> ---
>
> - Its obvious that you were not a big fan then. Because
> there are big fans out there, that Do invest in real
> controllers.


It's obvious that your comments are annoying.


> - And if you say you wouldnt complain about not being
> able to control a certain game... then either you really
> dont have passion for a game that uses unique controlls..
> or you are fearful a dev will Quit the Skene. Or Guru
> will threaten to charge you $10,000 in interest on money
> borrowed.


Wow, was that the best you could do? Maybe think that one over again and re-edit?


> - 720 is just One of the MANY games that dont control
> correct in Mame... for which options are very poor for
> those of us who are actually passionate about playing the
> games.


You flatter yourself throwing around that P word.


> Again wrong with the Starwars comment. Lots of people want to play it and play it in
> MAME with a mouse. There's a niche market for these controllers with Ramcontrols or
> whatever they call themselves seek to fill.
>
> - To this date, there is Huge demand for Starwars
> controllers. Yes, people Do play it with a mouse... but
> many of those same people are not content, and want to
> buy the real controller... and in fact ARE buying it. The
> price is a somewhat steep $300, not including the needed
> interface... and yet, its selling out faster than the guy
> can get a string of them made.


I already said earlier that there is a niche market for these Star Wars controllers which that company is filling, yet you still comment about it.


> Do you realize how many Starwars cabinets there were
> produced in the USA ALONE?! Its probably one of the most
> popular games ever made! People Love the custom controller,
> and nothing else really feels and controls as good as it,
> and thus, eventually, even if 1/10 the people who liked it
> as a kid bought it... added to the Cabinets that need them,
> and Ramcontrols will probably be selling them for Ages.


See above.


> BTW - What do you think happens when a person cant get
> parts for his cabinet to make the game play correctly?
> Ding Ding Ding... it gets Parted out. Or trashed
> completely. New parts = longer preservation of actual
> games.


So is this supposed to somehow tie in an argument that adding support for these niche controllers extends the life of original games? You're stretching on that one, huh? Mr. Fantastic. You just watched Fantastic 4.


> Also, many MGFs made custom pc parts, such as custom
> spinners, which means people are not hacking real tron
> panels to get the spinner. And if they did originally do
> that, they can now sell that panel back into the hands of
> a cabinet owner.
>
> ---
>
> I'm not under any delusions. I like how you think I'm the one out of line here yet
> you're the one pissing people off, including the people who could help your nichie
> cause.
>
> ---
>
> Really? Cause the people who seem to be doing the
> money collection, and the work on preservation, dont seem
> to care one bit. Which to anyone with passion for these
> games, is Infuriating. Including collectors, as well as
> again... the designers of the originals.


You're just trolling here and you know it.


> Quite simply, the people who Do have passion, Do the work.


You mean work on your home cabinet? Selfish work all for you? You do more work for MAME than I do?


> Im not going to walk on eggshells just cause someone who
> lacks passion, might quit. Im certainly not the only
> one person in this world who actually has a passion for
> the old games. And certainly not the only person who
> is ticked off that you cant play any of mames driving
> games with a real shifter... let alone all the other hacks
> that screw with controls, or limit the real output/inputs
> of the machines.
>
>
> And BTW - Jeff Anderson, a collector and person who runs
> VideoTopia, sold that Namco shooting gun to the local
> museum. People like him actually have passion for games.
> But people like him, are not always very happy with people
> from the Mame collective... for reasons stated above, as
> well as poor attitudes dished out.


Maybe you guys should hang out.


> Devs seem to have this idea that people who like the old
> games are a tiny group.


This is something you have made up.


> Its hilarious. Arcade games have
> been out there for decades, to all generations of people
> all over the world. In my small city, we had like 5
> large busy arcades. Ive played just about every classic
> ever made, and even some of the lesser known machines.
>
> In this city alone, I know like 15 collectors.. many of
> which own ENTIRE BASEMENTS FILLED WITH ARCADE / PINBALL
> MACHINES! In fact, when I worked at the arcade in the mall,
> I also Sold machines to the public.
>
> And Pinball? An even smaller more expensive hobby... which
> is supposed to be "Dead" and I know many pinball collects
> here, including myself, that have more than one machine.
>
> These machines just didnt all vanish, nor did the
> Passionate players throughout all the years. And if Mame
> made more of an Effort towards such passionate people,
> you would see a 100x rise in donation levels.
>
> The saying goes... You scratch my back, and Ill scratch
> yours.
>
> But pissing all over people by telling them what they
> cant do... giving them a hard time when they ask for
> something simple...and poor/no efforts made to rectify
> poor areas of preservation... along with threats and
> bad attitudes from people like "Guru"... and Donation
> levels are going to stay pathetic.


There doesn't seem to be much I can do to help Guru's attitude or social skills but you're one to talk.



R. Belmont
Cuckoo for Konami
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 9606
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
Send PM


Re: stfu new [Re: StevieWunderful]
#235284 - 10/01/10 11:07 PM


> -You really do not think in realistic terms. When
> A MFG like Atari made Videos... they didnt make 500.
> They made THOUSANDS. As in like 50,000... 200,000.
> The games were all over the states, multiples in every
> city, and even all over the world.

OT: are you posting from a Commodore 64 or something? All of your posts have this weird 40-column wrap thing going on.

Anyway, from what I've read and from talking to Atari employees, only super ultra hits like Asteroids got even to 100,000. Most games were made in far smaller lots - 5,000 to 20,000. And a large percentage of all of those games have now been scrapped or destroyed or converted to Street Fighter II. (Contrast with modern console games where popular AAA titles can move over a million units in a week).

> - 720 is just One of the MANY games that dont control
> correct in Mame... for which options are very poor for
> those of us who are actually passionate about playing the
> games.

The hilarious thing is that prior to 0.85u1 720 basically required original arcade controls to be playable in MAME, and *everyone* bitched about it. I don't recall you defending the choice before it was switched to how it is now.

> Do you realize how many Starwars cabinets there were
> produced in the USA ALONE?!

Do you realize that many of those burned to ashes or were scrapped when the X-Y monitor blew various high voltage components?

> Devs seem to have this idea that people who like the old
> games are a tiny group.

Incorrect. Devs have this idea, which has been proven repeatedly, that people like to play the old games on their PC with normal peripherals, and maybe an X360 or PS3 pad. More people want to play Mortal Kombat II online than know 720 exists, let alone want to play 720 with a custom control panel. Doesn't mean they're less passionate, just that they're different.

By the way, is ram controls aware of the fabulous PR job you're doing for them? If I were them I'd be sending PayPal to Twisty to get you banned before you drag them through any more mud.



StilettoAdministrator
They're always after me Lucky ROMS!
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 6236
Send PM


Re: stfu new [Re: StevieWunderful]
#235331 - 10/02/10 08:18 AM


> And BTW - Jeff Anderson, a collector and person who runs
> VideoTopia, sold that Namco shooting gun to the local
> museum. People like him actually have passion for games.
> But people like him, are not always very happy with people
> from the Mame collective... for reasons stated above, as
> well as poor attitudes dished out.

Really? He's always been very courteous and friendly when Lord Nightmare or I have met him in gaming conventions in our area, and I don't think our attitudes are poor. And you can NEVER argue that Lord Nightmare has no passion. He's ALL passion. You might want to get your facts straight. I like Jeff.

- Stiletto



mogli
MAME Fan
Reged: 01/26/08
Posts: 1956
Send PM


Re: What do the analog controls settings equate to? new [Re: StevieWunderful]
#235414 - 10/03/10 08:19 AM


I think you missed my post from a month or so ago telling of how I enjoyed using a stick on Marble Madness as much as I enjoy a trackball. In a way more so, cos it's more efficient all told.

A analogous example is, in many vertical shooters, the difference between trying to constantly 'fly' through enemy formations and munitions, versus doing quick, bird-like movements. I don't like that latter, but have accepted that it gets the job one better.


> Its really not a good idea, and certainly, if you really
> like to play the game, then you will just pickup a cheap
> analog controller. Even if its a $12 gameplay with analog
> thumb pads.
>
> Imagine this:
>
> You have to control a Marble with a Joytick. Both
> direction and speed need analog control... but you want
> to try to use a digital joystick.
>
> If you adjust the speed and direction to a low setting...
> you can control the marble well to navigate tight sharp
> turns without falling off the edges.
>
> But then how do you make the marble go fast suddenly, so
> that you can quickly escape the enemy that jumps right at
> you?
>
> If you adjust the setting for high speed, you can dodge
> things easily.. but when you get to the part of the game
> where you have to be very careful... you will be going too
> fast, and fly off the level over and over again.
>
> If you provide a set level of acceleration... it
> still does not help. If a wall was about to fall on you,
> and the acceleration ramp was too slow.. you could never
> escape the wall from crushing you.
>
> If the acceleration ramp was too quick, then you again
> have the problem of lacking fine control needed for tight
> and accurate steering & slow speeds.
>
> I know all this, because I was helping to develop a
> Marble Madness sequel. The programmer never could make
> the realization that Digital control in such a game was a
> stupid idea.
>
> I had designed a brilliant digital compromise, which would
> allow a player to use a button as sort of a virtual roll
> of the trackball. If you tapped the button rapidly, it
> would accelerate quickly. If you pulsed slowly, you stayed
> moving slowly. You were not allowed to hold the button
> down like a gas pedal, because that would again require an
> acceleration ramp. In my method, it was truly analog.
> Though of course never as accurate as a real trackball..
> and of course there was no real fix for missing steering
> detail. There was an idea for an analog steering simulation
> formula.. but it didnt work well in practice. (to be fair,
> the programmer didnt follow the design to spec, which might
> have at least made it at least acceptably decent)
>
> Anyways, as you can see.. controlling a Marble is
> no easy feat with a digital controller... and a game
> like marble madness is very easy compared to the Insane
> difficulty, speed, accuracy of a game like Sinistar.
> Even with perfect arcade controls, that game will Stomp
> all over you. (I think my best was 5th level, and that
> was a miracle to get there, for me)



mogli
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Re: What do the analog controls settings equate to? new [Re: Derrick Renaud]
#235417 - 10/03/10 08:24 AM


> > Okay, so (in the case of using a spinner for something like PP, in particular here
> a
> > Tornado Spinner) does that mean higher settings of digital speed and autocenter
> make
> > for a tighter response?
>
> Huh? Higher numbers mean more movement per frame = faster movement.

There seems to be a 'latency' with stock MAME settings - eg: there's 'play' between movement. Like if your alignment were loose, dig?



mogli
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Re: stfu new [Re: Smitdogg]
#235420 - 10/03/10 08:35 AM



> Again wrong with the Starwars comment. Lots of people want to play it and play it in
> MAME with a mouse.
>


I'm still waiting to play this, because a mouse blows my nose for SW. Just, no.

I think X has a point about the 720 driver, controls-wise.

I agree with you that X could be more concise and less emotional.



StevieWunderful
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Posts: 115
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Re: stfu new [Re: Smitdogg]
#235444 - 10/03/10 06:07 PM


Quick & Crash is a game which uses Real moving targets. Not Video. At the end, there are 3 cups which are pre-cut and set in place... i believe with strings. Then I believe its a coil that fires to shatter them when you hit them. The parts fly everywhere.

"It has been discussed before that Golly Ghost, for example, could be set to use video or a ton of frames for door openings/closings."

Ill believe it when I see it.

"If you're never going to do anything with Video Pinball as far as a perfectionist studio setup then just scan it and let other people try to simulate the black light and angle changes."

As Ive said, Im working on getting a person with a good camera.

As for blacklight simulation, it wont work. Its purely
a photographic effect that must be captured.

Ive sent a photo set in as a temporary placeholder until
I could get the photographer / camera. Yet it has not been
added. That is beyond my control.



StevieWunderful
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Re: stfu new [Re: Stiletto]
#235445 - 10/03/10 06:15 PM


I said "But people like him," As in, many big collectors are not as happy with / at the devs.

Jeff wasnt too happy with the fact that he sent in his race drivin panorama roms, and nothing has happened with them.
He mentioned that to me, as I convinced him to dump the two
missing roms for TX-1, at my house.



bdam
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Re: stfu new [Re: StevieWunderful]
#235449 - 10/03/10 07:28 PM


>Jeff wasnt too happy with the fact that he sent in his race drivin panorama roms, and nothing has happened with them.

http://maws.mameworld.info/maws/romset/racedrivpan

So ... say that again? Pretty much the moment MAME started making progress on multiple machines he-who-shall-not-be-named (do we still have to do this?) began tinkering with it. Even barring that, by submitting the roms he got the best backup that no money can buy.



mogli
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If you mean H...... new [Re: bdam]
#235493 - 10/04/10 08:00 AM


Yes. Won't let you post.

> So ... say that again? Pretty much the moment MAME started making progress on
> multiple machines he-who-shall-not-be-named (do we still have to do this?)



R. Belmont
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Re: stfu new [Re: StevieWunderful]
#235507 - 10/04/10 04:59 PM


> I said "But people like him," As in, many big collectors are not as happy with / at
> the devs.
>
> Jeff wasnt too happy with the fact that he sent in his race drivin panorama roms,
> and nothing has happened with them.
> He mentioned that to me, as I convinced him to dump the two
> missing roms for TX-1, at my house.

I've made it clear many many times in the past that while MAME's architecture is transitioning towards being able to run multiple drivers at the same time it's not there yet. So games like Panorama that require running 3 or even 5 PCBs are necessarily a ways off. (And good luck finding a PC that runs it at a framerate when it is emulated).

Bottom line: MAMEdev does not and can not guarantee a timetable on any dump. If someone told Jeff otherwise, that person needs to be informed of actual facts.



StevieWunderful
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Re: What do the analog controls settings equate to? new [Re: mogli]
#235597 - 10/05/10 06:05 AM



The thing about MM, is that Rolling the ball is Physical. It took a lot of work to get it moving fast, and you could accidentally overshoot once you got it moving good. It was part of the challenge and fun of the game. The game itself is short and almost no gameplay at all. It was all atmosphere and controller oriented.

If you use it in mame with a digital control, you would have to set the digital acceleration very high. Which is basically cheating... because you are getting acceleration and speed that would normally be either impossible, & or take a Ton of physical work and "time" to achieve. Thus the game will be too easy (without considering the precise steering)

With a real trackball, on a real machine, on the stock settings, its Really difficult to get through all the stages without running out of time. Every moment is Crucial. You dont get that sense of urgency or difficulty with digital control.


Now, I know what you mean about the digital control however. I do like controlling a games like the PS1 version of Ridgeracer with the digital controller better than a mini analog controller, but the main reason is because mini analogs are poor as far as controllable leverages goes. A real wheel would be better, but you dont always have one laying around, and the code is adjusted to handle digital control fairly well. The difficulty of the game has little to do with acceleration, so digital accel is fine and wont effect timed challenges. Anyway, as said, the game is designed to control with digial - and thats fine. But MM, its just not right to control is with anything other than a real trackball.

A better example would be Missile Command. Id love to see you score well on MC with a digital input. You wont last more than 5 rounds if that. You have to use a mouse at Least, and even with a mouse, its not as fun as with a true trackball.

Atari XO football is another example... where its more fun and challenging to use trackballs. The faster you roll, the faster the men run. You get a real workout on that game, as its trackballs are a heavy 4" diameter, and you have to roll really fast to move fast. Controlling a game like that with a digital control will work.. but its not as fun or challenging.

What about SuperSrint? Id love to see you play even 3 levels well with a digital stick. Even a mouse wont be much good there. You need a real spinner to do well in that game.

And Spy Hunter? This game is Brutal Period. There is almost no way you can last for long after your 'grace' time is up, if you are using some digital control scheme. The game relies heavily on precise acceleration control, as well as aggressive steering, gear shifting (mamed Button toggle shifter RUINS this game), and weapon use. You could get away with it on a Nintendo programmed version, but not the real deal. And even if you could do OK, you would do 1000x better with the true controls.

And then we have a game like Hard Drivin. This game is not graphically that impressive at all. But it was hella fun to play. The controls on the sit-down were the very reason this game was so popular. The wheel has a motor strong enough to turn a dryer full of rocks, and its force feedback is so good that it rivals most modern FFB games. You felt everything that was happening with the car, from loss of traction, to effects from the cars mass shifting. The Gear shifter was also a huge feature. It was built like a tank, and yet felt so perfect as it sprung-clicked into place. Even the brakes were revolutionary on this game. They used a progressive pressure assembly, so that the further the brake was pressed in... the harder it was to press them. It was extremely realistic, and gave really excellent & super precise control. Far exceeding any other racers brake pedal system. All of this adding up to make one of the more popular racing titles in gaming history.

Playing RD in mame, with no force feedback, and without the 10 turn dryer-motor wheel... no super-shifter, and generic pedals is bad enough. But playing it digitally, is 1000x worse than if you actually hooked up at least a standard Steering wheel & Pedal set. Basically, the game is all about the feedback and specialized controls. Nobody who has ever played the original sitdown can ever deny that.

Mame has come a long way as far as arcade input possibility is concerned. However, a simple thing like Shifters is completely ignored.. which is mindblowing... and really ruins a ton of great race games for people who Really have great passion for them, and want to play them with real controls.

Anyways, thanks for your verbal agreement about the 720 issue. More people really should speak up.. but most are fearful that a dev will cry and quit all the sudden. Or that they are made to feel as Ingrates for even asking or suggesting something.



StevieWunderful
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Posts: 115
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Re: stfu new [Re: R. Belmont]
#235598 - 10/05/10 06:18 AM


I dont believe there was any issue like that. I believe it was merely a case of No communication at all.

Such as, hey buddy, I painted your house. (no response from buddy... ever...)

Was there any:

"Thanks so much for taking the time and effort to dump and send these roms in. Although we can not guarantee this will be added any time soon, due to the nature of the complexity... we highly appreciate that you sent them to us for preservation.

Im sure that little write up would have went a Long way to making him feel that much better about mame and the people behind mame.. and maybe put more effort into other dumps. BTW- in case you didnt know, Jeff has a Very extensive collection of games. Im talking an entire warehouse. But hey, one might know this is actual communications were involved. Might have saved some dumping funds on some rare games / revisions that needed to be dumped.



StevieWunderful
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Re: stfu new [Re: R. Belmont]
#235600 - 10/05/10 06:32 AM



The hilarious thing is that prior to 0.85u1 720 basically required original arcade controls to be playable in MAME, and *everyone* bitched about it. I don't recall you defending the choice before it was switched to how it is now.
------

- As Ive stated from the START, Mame should allow multiple methods to be able to control a game. Its like that in many other games in mame... but 720 is Not one of them.

It did not play well with a mouse, because the game gets de-calibrated without the additional calibration wheel.

There is no other control that could do well to control direction besides a spinner. So, an analog joystick IS a good idea for those who dont have a spinner.

In fact, even at that time, as far as I recall, the Calibration input wasnt even an Option available in the menu system. Meaning, a person with a custom built spinner couldnt even made use of the real control input.

But heres the deal... the game shouldnt be Hacked to be crippled because of Popular controller opinion. It should have the option for both methods. For even IF someone does not have the money for a new 720 controller today, when
he does... he will still have no mame input options. That is just plain pathetic. Its certainly not a preservationist spirit. And its not in line with an Accuracy spirit either.

What is so difficult with having a single switch to enable
or disable "Shifter toggle /on", "Specialty Controller Mode /on" ? By default you can keep the hack modes on, and a switch would allow purists to turn on real controls. It would appease all the people, allow for future changes, and keep in line with greater archival accuracy.



StevieWunderful
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Posts: 115
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Re: stfu new [Re: Smitdogg]
#235601 - 10/05/10 06:46 AM


"wait for this new one to start being produced"

- You have never owned a business have you? Would you
dump a lot of money into a custom controller that isnt even supported by the very program that its aimed at?

The guy will probably make them anyways, being that he does it for coin op as well... but, with mame support, there is greater chance to see it sooner than later, and produced in higher volumes.

This of course being much less so for other manufacturers who will never make custom mame devices, until mame has the options for them to begin with.


- As for custom controllers.. Ive stated in the past (and stating again now...) that Id be more than happy to build controllers for Devs that get the arcade Shifter options in. Woodworking/Wiring labor I can do. They would just have to supply the money for the parts, or we would have to take up a donation for them.



SmitdoggAdministrator
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Re: stfu new [Re: StevieWunderful]
#235602 - 10/05/10 07:01 AM


> "wait for this new one to start being produced"
>
> - You have never owned a business have you? Would you
> dump a lot of money into a custom controller that isnt even supported by the very
> program that its aimed at?


For F's sake dude, just stop. Your abrasive style just makes people dislike you. Good job. People are just lining up to help you. This statement of yours, too, is was the Brits refer to as "utter bollocks". Like I said earlier, nobody here has ever even heard of this company, but you expect everybody has been following them behind the scenes and scurrying to program support for their future hardware? And shocked and appalled that nobody has. Are you insane?


> The guy will probably make them anyways, being that he does it for coin op as
> well... but, with mame support, there is greater chance to see it sooner than later,
> and produced in higher volumes.


Do yourself and him a favor and ask him to get in touch with Derrick. You can't seem to do any good at all.


> This of course being much less so for other manufacturers who will never make custom
> mame devices, until mame has the options for them to begin with.


OK. That's reasonable. Program support for devices that haven't been made yet... It's just not going to happen for ransacked parts out of broken cabs, no matter how many thousands of them you think there are out there waiting to be bought up by people just dying to spend a week figuring out the wiring and whatever else. So keep kicking and screaming cause you look pretty sweet. People can just build a prototype and approach Derrick as a human being and see if he'll add support for them if he gets one for free and then if it works out, go into production. This simple little idea is difficult for you to understand.


> - As for custom controllers.. Ive stated in the past (and stating again now...) that
> Id be more than happy to build controllers for Devs that get the arcade Shifter
> options in. Woodworking/Wiring labor I can do. They would just have to supply the
> money for the parts, or we would have to take up a donation for them.


You're pretty much out of the question at this point, I can't imagine why anyone would want to work with your militant ass.



R. Belmont
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Re: stfu new [Re: StevieWunderful]
#235627 - 10/05/10 04:32 PM


> "Thanks so much for taking the time and effort to dump and send these roms in.
> Although we can not guarantee this will be added any time soon, due to the nature of
> the complexity... we highly appreciate that you sent them to us for preservation.

That has never happened in history, and you know it. It's real simple: you dump a game, your name is credited when it's added. After that, there is no relationship with the dumper unless his work turns out to be defective.

> Im sure that little write up would have went a Long way to making him feel that much
> better about mame and the people behind mame.. and maybe put more effort into other
> dumps.

And a few minutes of research would have caused him to discover how things actually work. I paid $2000 out of pocket to get Star Wars Trilogy dumped for MAME and nobody sucked my cock for it afterwards. It doesn't happen to anyone, and it's not exactly a well-hidden fact by this point.

You seem to be under the impression that MAMEdev is a professional well-funded corporation that can afford to hire secretaries to write flowery Dr. Phil letters to dumpers and that we can jump on whatever the BYOAC crowd has deemed indispensable in a given week. It's not. MAME is what we do after work, in between football games on TV and dinner with the girlfriend. (In the case of inputs and shifters, it's what Derrick does when it's too cold to go swimming in Canada). If you want better service, you'll need to start paying $69.95 each time there's a version bump.



twistyAdministrator
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Re: stfu new [Re: R. Belmont]
#235630 - 10/05/10 04:46 PM


> I paid $2000 out of pocket to get Star Wars Trilogy dumped for MAME and nobody
> sucked my cock for it afterwards.

The DevQuote master delivers again



Tomu Breidah
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Re: If you mean H...... new [Re: mogli]
#235731 - 10/06/10 08:49 AM


> Yes. Won't let you post.
>

You mean Señor Jaze?



StilettoAdministrator
They're always after me Lucky ROMS!
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Re: If you mean H...... new [Re: Tomu Breidah]
#235752 - 10/06/10 03:47 PM


> > Yes. Won't let you post.
> >
>
> You mean Señor Jaze?

Leetspeak - H@ze / H@z3. Or Arbee's coined "Tom Riddle"

- Stiletto



Fever
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Re: If you mean H...... new [Re: Stiletto]
#235777 - 10/06/10 07:23 PM


> > > Yes. Won't let you post.
> > >
> >
> > You mean Señor Jaze?
>
> Leetspeak - H@ze / H@z3. Or Arbee's coined "Tom Riddle"
>
> - Stiletto

Could just go with David Hayward!
Actually, I was thinking about you meeting people with Lord Nightmare with you - do you seriously introduce yourselves as Stilleto and Lord Nightmare?
"Hello there, I'm Lord Nightmare, pleased to meet you"
No offence to him, just stuck me as funny!



mogli
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Indeed. Very funny. new [Re: twisty]
#235813 - 10/07/10 05:13 AM


> > I paid $2000 out of pocket to get Star Wars Trilogy dumped for MAME and nobody
> > sucked my cock for it afterwards.
>
> The DevQuote master delivers again



mogli
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I prefer 'H'.... new [Re: Stiletto]
#235815 - 10/07/10 05:20 AM


It's a little ambiguous, yet circumstantially distinctive. Could mean heroin...or H/honey......[smiles]



mogli
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Re: What do the analog controls settings equate to? new [Re: StevieWunderful]
#235816 - 10/07/10 05:22 AM


I don't consider using any [alternative] controls cheating. Some are desirable to me, others are not.

And I still think Spy Hunter is graphically impressive.



krick
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Re: Video Pinball new [Re: StevieWunderful]
#235827 - 10/07/10 07:58 AM


> The Video Pinball artwork turned out to be a lot more
> of a challenge than expected.
>
> For one, it is art that is intended to be lit in Blacklight.
> This changes the entire look of the artwork, AND, no scanner
> will pick up blacklight. You would have to somehow
> modify a scanner with a miniature blacklight bulb - and it
> MIGHT work. But, you are not going to find such a bulb.
>
> So that leaves Photographs. However, I dont happen to have
> a very good camera. In fact, most cameras will have a very
> hard time capturing good detail in low light. You end up
> with blur and loss of detail & color depth. Not to mention,
> with a camera, you have perspective issues. Meaning, you will need about 100 photos
> to get enough data for a
> non-perspective stitch. (the art is NOT FLAT! )
>
> Then you have the problem that mame does not display
> 3d planes. The art is NOT FLAT! It has foam parts stuck
> on it that are 1cm thick. A typical scanner cant even scan
> both layers at once... which would mean you would have to
> destroy the artwork to scan both layers.
>
> Next, mame is set to display it as "Flat". Which means
> you wont even see the artwork the way it was meant to be
> seen. Therefore, making it just about pointless to even
> do in the first place.
>
> (just about as pointless as getting that gun game smitt
> is interested it... cause that game has real cups that
> fly apart via strings (its not a video image) - and mame,
> as far as Ive heard, has no intent to simulate such a thing)
>
> Just as it was initially Pointless for me to scan in the
> Discs of Tron artwork Ages ago, when mame would only allow
> an image with 256 colors. Yet, I did hold on to the images
> for like 3yrs or so, when mame finally adapted to support
> 16 bit color art.
>
> For me, its not about the lack of motivation however. It
> the lack of a $1000 camera, and the desire to do the job
> right.
>
> For the Artwork to be shown as it should, in all its
> blacklight glory, as well as in its true intended
> perspective.
>
> While I Do have a lead on a possible Photographer to help
> out... Ive not done so, more or less, because "if" I can
> get him to do it.. it has to be a one shot deal. I cant
> expect the guy to spend several hrs on something he has no
> interest it.
>
> So, send me a $1000 camera, Ill do the deed and send the
> work back for free, as intended. I dont charge $50,000
> for something that should be preserved for history.
> (even though admittedly, Im not much of a fan of
> Video Pinball)


For anyone who is interested, if you look at the diagrams in the Video Pinball manual...

http://mame.3feetunder.com/mameworld/Video_Pinball_TM-130_1st_Printing.pdf

...you'll see that the "playfield" is actually in the top of the cabinet and you look down on a partially-reflective mirror that combines the reflected playfield from above with the monitor graphics from below. There's a blacklight next to the playfield that either illuminates it directly, or with reflected light from the mirror.




The playfield itself is made of two layers, with the bottom layer (when viewed while mounted in the cabinet) being much thicker, with cut-out areas. Because of the viewing angle, you actually see the edges of this layer reflected in the mirror, so the playfield is in effect "3-D".

After spending some time thinking about it, I think the "correct" way to properly capture the artwork is to take a real Video Pinball machine, replace the partial mirror with a full mirror, turn on the black light, and photograph the mirror from the angle of an actual player.

To emulate it properly, the output from MAME would then need to be perspective corrected to match the angle of the artwork photograph, then overlaid on top.

Since the perspective effect in MAME probably won't be happening any time soon, I think for the meantime you could rig up something with a blacklight and a just snap a high-res digital photograph straight on, possibly with some sort of a tri-pod to get a sharp stable picture.

This image would then need to be mirrored, and the scoring LEDs would need to be emulated and added with the artwork system. I think the manual has a schematic for the scoring LEDs, if needed.



Fever
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Re: Indeed. Very funny. new [Re: mogli]
#235957 - 10/08/10 11:40 PM


> > > I paid $2000 out of pocket to get Star Wars Trilogy dumped for MAME and nobody
> > > sucked my cock for it afterwards.
> >
> > The DevQuote master delivers again

It's alright, its was a good point but I'm not laughing until I loose control of my bowls or anything - If Smitt said it you wouldn't even notice!
Admit!
Suck-ups!



StevieWunderful
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Posts: 115
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Re: stfu new [Re: R. Belmont]
#236012 - 10/10/10 07:10 AM



Quote:


That has never happened in history, and you know it. It's real simple: you dump a game, your name is credited when it's added. After that, there is no relationship with the dumper unless his work turns out to be defective.




So basically what you are saying, is that in the Internet world, there is no need for being Nice, even if its a "copy-cut-paste" generic reply?

Is this how you handle your business in the real world?
Someone drops a beautiful steak dinner on your plate.. and
you simply walk away without even so much as a "Grunt" ?

Just because it has not been so in the past, does not mean it should be so in the future.

And in the case of someone like Jeff, who has an entire warehouse of games, and knows collectors and Ops all over the world... it would be better that someone does get buddy-buddy with him to see if there is anything else that could be dumped. Without any "Personal" connection, its unlikely that any such deals will be made, or be made in any timely manor. (IE: before its too late)

The TX-1 I saved from getting destroyed/converted, was found 'Only' because of my Personal connections to many various collectors, who also know other collectors & ops.


Quote:


I paid $2000 out of pocket to get Star Wars Trilogy dumped for MAME




I pretty much lost most respect for you to even make that comment. The game is a big fat Pile of Steaming dog poop. The original is 1000x more fun & challenging to play.

But anyways, if you think its unfair that you had to shoulder the costs... there are others that could have helped. Ohh, whats that? There is a dumping union that is comprised of various NON-DEVS? One has to wonder exactly how much money to date, has the non-devs poured into the PCB dumping funds? And how many non devs have donated and send in pcbs & dumped data? And how many non-devs who have done so, who really want accurate control capability?


Quote:


we can jump on whatever the BYOAC crowd has deemed indispensable in a given week.




Mame is a Hypocritical convention. One one hand, it states that its all about accuracy and preservation. On the other, it cant be bothered to institute true accurate control of certain games.

Ask for allowances for games where its impossible to control without the real controller... and you get told they will Not modify it because thats not how the arcade worked. Ask for a game which is hacked so it cant be played with a real controller... and your told to STFU.

Mame wants such extreme precision, that Laserdiscs were just about Never going to be instituted because the team couldnt make any allowances or compromises at all. Yet when asking for VideoPinball artwork, they want a flat scan, not blacklight lit, not shown in correct perspective, simulated blacklight (yeah right), not accurate at all. Excellent preservation attitude ehh? Contradictory ? Nah.

And what of documenting Sideart, or more importantly, Controls? In the future, will anyone know what a 720 controller looked like? How it operated? How it was constructed? A game without the properly designed and tested control is not an accurate representation of that game. It wont match the level of control a player has, nor will it behave the same ways in regards to tightly tested level designs and time restraints. Its not going to be accurate as was tested & designed, without the proper controller specs.

There are several games in mame that people have No clue as to what way they were controlled with. And because mames inputs show a jumbled mass of hacks, one wouldnt even know 'what is what' without a lot of outside research... and that is "IF" the manuals / info can be found easily. (in many cases, it cant)


Will anyone know what it actually looked like staring into a real video pinball machine? Or more impressive.. a Discs of Tron, which has like 3 levels of artwork depth? Not with mames current limits and lack of data collection.

Now, I realize that some of this stuff would seem beyond what mames goals originally were. But to preserve an arcade machine in only "part"... is like preserving only the engine in an old classic car, and scrapping the rest. Its a historic injustice.

Yes, it creates more difficulty in management, however, there are many other non-programmers who can help step up in the other areas. But, they cant do it without the proper frameworks added. Once the framework is in place, people all over can start better, more accurate preservation efforts, in mass effect.


Quote:


If you want better service, you'll need to start paying $69.95 each time there's a version bump.




People have asked nicely for features, and offered to pay for them... and have been turned down.

So... Mames core principles of accuracy dont apply, and neither does money. Which leaves very little option but to get angered... especially when monies HAVE been Donated to the cause of PRESERVATION by such passionate peoples... such peoples who would love to actually enjoy these games the way they were DESIGNED to be played.

A game isnt just a CPU. Its a beast of multiple combined creations, which enlisted the talents of countless skill sets.

Every part of a game is important. Just like every part of a classic car is important. And of course, a classic car isnt going to be worth much if its not drivable. Or if its hacked to "only" be driven with a Playstation
controller.

Tell me, if people in the future think its Fine to drive a real classic sports car with a PS2 controller... do you think its right to strip it of its real control option, and hack in a PS2 controller?

Just because it might be what the masses were asking, does not make it right. If people dont have access to the real controls of the car.. then fine, a hack will be necessary. But to those who have the real cars parts.. they shouldn't be denied the ability to, for instance, hook up a real shifter to the classic car.



SmitdoggAdministrator
Reged: 09/18/03
Posts: 16203
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Re: stfu new [Re: StevieWunderful]
#236015 - 10/10/10 09:12 AM


> That has never happened in history, and you know it. It's real simple: you dump a
> game, your name is credited when it's added. After that, there is no relationship
> with the dumper unless his work turns out to be defective.
>
> So basically what you are saying, is that in the Internet world, there is no need
> for being Nice, even if its a "copy-cut-paste" generic reply?
>
> Is this how you handle your business in the real world?
> Someone drops a beautiful steak dinner on your plate.. and
> you simply walk away without even so much as a "Grunt" ?
>
> Just because it has not been so in the past, does not mean it should be so in the
> future.
>
> And in the case of someone like Jeff, who has an entire warehouse of games, and
> knows collectors and Ops all over the world... it would be better that someone does
> get buddy-buddy with him to see if there is anything else that could be dumped.
> Without any "Personal" connection, its unlikely that any such deals will be made, or
> be made in any timely manor. (IE: before its too late)


Jeff is probably pretty cool. It's about time you stop comparing yourself to him.


> The TX-1 I saved from getting destroyed/converted, was found 'Only' because of my
> Personal connections to many various collectors, who also know other collectors &
> ops.


Oh wow. Let me guess, you're about to be a buzz kill...


> I paid $2000 out of pocket to get Star Wars Trilogy dumped for MAME
>
> I pretty much lost most respect for you to even make that comment. The game is a big
> fat Pile of Steaming dog poop. The original is 1000x more fun & challenging to play.
>
> But anyways, if you think its unfair that you had to shoulder the costs... there are
> others that could have helped. Ohh, whats that? There is a dumping union that is
> comprised of various NON-DEVS?


Nice troll. First off, it's mostly non-mamedev. Second off, what's your point here, besides horrible grammar?


> One has to wonder exactly how much money to date, has
> the non-devs poured into the PCB dumping funds?


It's clear how much has gone through the DU.


> And how many non devs have donated
> and send in pcbs & dumped data?


Lots, including everything from myself...


> And how many non-devs who have done so, who really
> want accurate control capability?


Hmm I don't know, where are your supporters? You always speak for an invisible army? Are they as socially retarded as you? Dreamy. Sex tape.


> we can jump on whatever the BYOAC crowd has deemed indispensable in a given week.
>
> Mame is a Hypocritical convention. One one hand, it states that its all about
> accuracy and preservation. On the other, it cant be bothered to institute true
> accurate control of certain games.


No, your interpretation eats dick is the problem. Here is the interpretation you should get: People work on it in their free time with what is important to them keeping accuracy, preservation and the whole "spirit" in mind but not as a shackle. It never claimed to be perfect or to always support highly custom original cab controls wired to a PC by a mad man. You dreamed it.


> Ask for allowances for games where its impossible to control without the real
> controller... and you get told they will Not modify it because thats not how the
> arcade worked. Ask for a game which is hacked so it cant be played with a real
> controller... and your told to STFU.


Eh, well "you're" told the latter. Agreed there.


>
> Mame wants such extreme precision, that Laserdiscs were just about Never going to be
> instituted because the team couldnt make any allowances or compromises at all. Yet
> when asking for VideoPinball artwork, they want a flat scan, not blacklight lit, not
> shown in correct perspective, simulated blacklight (yeah right), not accurate at all.
> Excellent preservation attitude ehh? Contradictory ? Nah.


I mean, is this really referring to my request? I have to assume since hardly anyone else will bother replying to you? Are you that petty? First, I'm not a mamedev. Second, I never said I was going to use the artwork as a flat scan without any further processing. More dreams? Seriously though, as soon as it comes up again for sale, I'd bid on it and send it to Mr. Do. Tick-tock, 5 years and counting.


>
> And what of documenting Sideart, or more importantly, Controls? In the future, will
> anyone know what a 720 controller looked like? How it operated? How it was
> constructed? A game without the properly designed and tested control is not an
> accurate representation of that game. It wont match the level of control a player
> has, nor will it behave the same ways in regards to tightly tested level designs and
> time restraints. Its not going to be accurate as was tested & designed, without the
> proper controller specs.


We could almost come to an agreement here if you weren't such an asshole about it. My preference would be detailed info about the cab in source notes to start with and an alt switch if a replacement controller ever gets manufactured (like the Act Labs light gun for guns).


> There are several games in mame that people have No clue as to what way they were
> controlled with. And because mames inputs show a jumbled mass of hacks, one wouldnt
> even know 'what is what' without a lot of outside research... and that is "IF" the
> manuals / info can be found easily. (in many cases, it cant)


They should be forced to find scare original arcade controls and know how to wire them up according to MAME whims. If they can't find them then they will have no clue. They will think it was controlled by a penis.


> Will anyone know what it actually looked like staring into a real video pinball
> machine? Or more impressive.. a Discs of Tron, which has like 3 levels of artwork
> depth? Not with mames current limits and lack of data collection.
>
> Now, I realize that some of this stuff would seem beyond what mames goals originally
> were. But to preserve an arcade machine in only "part"... is like preserving only the
> engine in an old classic car, and scrapping the rest. Its a historic injustice.
>
> Yes, it creates more difficulty in management, however, there are many other
> non-programmers who can help step up in the other areas. But, they cant do it without
> the proper frameworks added. Once the framework is in place, people all over can
> start better, more accurate preservation efforts, in mass effect.


Nobody is going to pre-program 3 levels of artwork or anything else into a game before the artwork is scanned/photo'd. If you have the Video Pinball artwork then do something with it. You've got to be the most annoying hypocrite in the world. You've had it for like 5 years and haven't gotten correct images yet? And yet you bitch at other people for much more difficult stuff? Please, just send your artwork to Mr. Do.


> If you want better service, you'll need to start paying $69.95 each time there's a
> version bump.
>
> People have asked nicely for features, and offered to pay for them... and have been
> turned down.
>
> So... Mames core principles of accuracy dont apply, and neither does money. Which
> leaves very little option but to get angered... especially when monies HAVE been
> Donated to the cause of PRESERVATION by such passionate peoples... such peoples who
> would love to actually enjoy these games the way they were DESIGNED to be played.


Here's what you don't get - nobody would have accepted your money or help if they would have known what was at the end of the handshake. We would have all just told you to go be mad in the corner.


> A game isnt just a CPU. Its a beast of multiple combined creations, which enlisted
> the talents of countless skill sets.
>
> Every part of a game is important. Just like every part of a classic car is
> important. And of course, a classic car isnt going to be worth much if its not
> drivable. Or if its hacked to "only" be driven with a Playstation
> controller.
>
> Tell me, if people in the future think its Fine to drive a real classic sports car
> with a PS2 controller... do you think its right to strip it of its real control
> option, and hack in a PS2 controller?


Congrats, you won the tard award.


> Just because it might be what the masses were asking, does not make it right. If
> people dont have access to the real controls of the car.. then fine, a hack will be
> necessary. But to those who have the real cars parts.. they shouldn't be denied the
> ability to, for instance, hook up a real shifter to the classic car.


Seriously dude, nobody even knows how to wire them to a PC. They can be added to MAME as a switch if you can figure it out and send in the code but assuming it to be done is something that I can't even come up with an accurate word to describe. It's like a mix between arrogance and expectancy theory and just plain dick hole.

Really though, you're a huge waste of time. Go back to BYOAC and... BYOAC. This Jeff guy seems pretty cool though. Tell him we want to make a trade. You for him.



Heihachi_73
I am the Table!
Reged: 10/29/03
Posts: 950
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Re: stfu new [Re: StevieWunderful]
#236017 - 10/10/10 10:53 AM


> Mame is a Hypocritical convention. One one hand, it states that its all about
> accuracy and preservation. On the other, it cant be bothered to institute true
> accurate control of certain games.

This is MAME, be lucky that it even supports controller input in the first place considering the above statement, or everyone would be stuck using a keyboard.



etabeta
Reged: 08/25/04
Posts: 2035
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Re: stfu new [Re: StevieWunderful]
#236020 - 10/10/10 11:36 AM


>> If you want better service, you'll need to start paying $69.95 each time there's a
>> version bump.
>
> People have asked nicely for features, and offered to pay for them... and have been
> turned down.
>

you don't know what sarcasm is, do you?

however, the point is that MAME is an hobbyist project and as such no devs want money to work on it (e.g. because, among other reasons, the devs which do programming for work could not contribute anymore if MAME was a commercial software)

if you want to donate, you can send money to the dumping project (which is completely separate, in the sense that no money sent to DU goes in devs' pockets)

if you want exotic controllers to be supported, you just have to study the source and send a diff (as Howard Casto did for lightguns output)

everything else is just blah blah blah



Mr. DoAdministrator
MAME Art Editor
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Re: stfu new [Re: StevieWunderful]
#236023 - 10/10/10 12:37 PM



> Mame wants such extreme precision, that Laserdiscs were just about Never going to be
> instituted because the team couldnt make any allowances or compromises at all. Yet
> when asking for VideoPinball artwork, they want a flat scan, not blacklight lit, not
> shown in correct perspective, simulated blacklight (yeah right), not accurate at all.
> Excellent preservation attitude ehh? Contradictory ? Nah.


No... that's not what we want.

I have some ideas of my own for this. Would you be willing to ship it out to me, if I cover all costs?



Derrick Renaud
Discrete Coder
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Re: stfu new [Re: StevieWunderful]
#236038 - 10/10/10 04:30 PM


xiaou2 said a bunch of rambling nonsense plus this bit:

> Mame is a Hypocritical convention. One one hand, it states that its all about
> accuracy and preservation. On the other, it cant be bothered to institute true
> accurate control of certain games.

How many times do you have to be told that MAME is a hobby project and not a company with paid employees for you to make demands to? Your delusion that supporting the dumping project gives you the right to be annoying is also baffling. I believe in the MAME FAQ, it states that MAME gets coded when someone with the desire to do so, does so. Also Guru's site says just because you send funds to dump a game, do not expect it to be emulated in any given time frame.

So yes, MAME is deliberately not adding the controls you want just to piss you off. Just like years ago, MAME did not have sound for discrete games. That was also done just to deliberately piss people off.

Or maybe discrete sounds were not done because no one with the skills and spare time to work on it was involved in the project. Could that be possible? After years of not being done, suddenly discrete games started to have sound when someone started to have the time/interest to do so. Not because some wanker demanded it.

There was a much larger interest in having multiple trackball/gun input and a universal means of Ikari style rotational support. Strangely this was added after time when someone found the time/interest to do so.

If someone wants to add proper real input, not unmaintainable hacked code, then MAME would accept it. But you are on a one man mission to make sure no one has any interest in doing so. Anyone with the thought of doing it would see your rambling, annoying posts and steer clear knowing whatever they kindly did in their free time, would probably still be jumped upon with more annoying posts.

So keep being annoying.
D.



mogli
MAME Fan
Reged: 01/26/08
Posts: 1956
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Re: Indeed. Very funny. new [Re: Fever]
#236115 - 10/11/10 09:06 PM


Well, that's just it. Belmont has a certain voice, and so something said by him comes across a different way.

> > > > I paid $2000 out of pocket to get Star Wars Trilogy dumped for MAME and nobody
> > > > sucked my cock for it afterwards.
> > >
> > > The DevQuote master delivers again
>
> It's alright, its was a good point but I'm not laughing until I loose control of my
> bowls or anything - If Smitt said it you wouldn't even notice!
> Admit!
> Suck-ups!



Bryan Ischo
MAME Fan
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Posts: 358
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Re: stfu new [Re: StevieWunderful]
#236371 - 10/14/10 09:04 PM


I may regret wading into this flame war, but I would like to try to offer a helpful suggestion.

Reading what xiao2 has posted, I get the feeling that he is reacting to some degree to a feeling of helplessness, because he doesn't have the programming skills necessary to change the MAME source code himself. I think we can all sympathize when feeling frustrated because we can't do something ourselves and those who can, don't help (even if it is for good reasons, such as that they are volunteers who shouldn't have to do something they don't want to!).

I think that people who are not devs can make significant contributions to MAME (yeah I know I am stating the obvious here, given how much important non-developer stuff has been done on MAME), and even in areas that they might not have realized they can help with.

For example, the topic at hand: I myself have spent a considerable amount of time puzzling through MAME's input system to try to figure out how it works so that I can figure out how to best utilize it in my project. One thing that I thought I could conclude, but was not certain of - because I certainly don't know all of the myriad complex details that went into creating MAME and don't want to jump to unfounded conclusions - was that there seems to be inconsistencies and just plain old gaps of logic in the way that some inputs were defined. There are lots of places where an input type is used that is not consistent with how the same input might be used in a different game (driving game shifters seem to be riddled with this problem).

OK, that being said, the problem is not that it is particularly hard to program these things; the problem is that it's hard to keep everything consistent when a variety of contributors are involved. I myself, if I were asked to include a new driver in MAME, would be unlikely to make all of the correct choices in how inputs are defined because there are so many complex details involved that I have little knowledge of; and this is assuming that there even *is* a 'correct' choice in many cases.

All that being said, I have often thought that what MAME really needs for any individual game is a very clear and well documented specification of what needs to be done to accurately represent that game in MAME. Professional programs are normally implemented starting with a specification, which defines in great detail the specific behaviors that the program must exhibit, and this specification is translated by the programmer into a program that does what the spec says it should. MAME could benefit from a similar approach, where the specification for a game would be a greatly detailed document describing, among other things, the controllers that the game supported, what they were named, how they looked, how they were positioned, even how they were made in some circumstances where the controller was unique and this is important information to preserve, even if it cannot be acted on directly in MAME source code.

What I'm getting at, in a very verbose way, is that the job of creating an emulation of a game is only partly a coding job; a very large part of it - maybe even the largest part of it - has nothing to do with code, instead involving things like dumping the roms, collecting information on the hardware (schematics, etc), documenting the behavior that needs to be emulated in the greatest possible detail, etc. And non-developers can - and do already, obviously - contribute to all of these non-coding aspects of the emulation.

So for whatever frustration you have about MAME's emulation, I think that you don't have to feel powerless in solving the problem. One very useful thing you can do is to document the issue, in very great detail, and in a concise form that could lead a programmer to more easily code up your requirements.

I've dabbled a bit in contributing some patches to MAME, and I would personally be happy to help improve it in ways such as making controllers work better; and I would actually be able to do this if I had any idea of what was wrong and what the right behavior was supposed to be.

I'm just saying that, if you do the work of making concise and well-documented requests for improvements to MAME, then people like me (and I'm guessing there are many people out there who could/would contribute coding in this way) would have a chance to help you out.

You could even take this to its ultimate conclusion and organize a project to track such well-detailed and well-documented requests, so that not just your own particular pet problem can be fixed, but everyone else's as well.



R. Belmont
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Reged: 09/21/03
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Re: stfu new [Re: Bryan Ischo]
#236382 - 10/14/10 11:25 PM


> All that being said, I have often thought that what MAME really needs for any
> individual game is a very clear and well documented specification of what needs to be
> done to accurately represent that game in MAME.

You're making the exact identical mistake as xiaou2: you're assuming MAME is a corporate product aimed at end users. MAME is not intended to be professional or saleable or ISO 9000 compliant. It is the vector sum of the interests and directions of all of the contributors, full stop.

If you want to fix this problem, talk to Derrick Renaud. He is the alpha and the omega of inputs and gear shifts. And that's why it was stupid for xiaou2 to piss him off.



Bryan Ischo
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Reged: 03/28/10
Posts: 358
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Re: stfu new [Re: R. Belmont]
#236391 - 10/15/10 12:22 AM


> > All that being said, I have often thought that what MAME really needs for any
> > individual game is a very clear and well documented specification of what needs to
> be
> > done to accurately represent that game in MAME.
>
> You're making the exact identical mistake as xiaou2: you're assuming MAME is a
> corporate product aimed at end users. MAME is not intended to be professional or
> saleable or ISO 9000 compliant. It is the vector sum of the interests and directions
> of all of the contributors, full stop.

Actually, I'm not. I realize that MAME is not anything other than a volunteer project with no guarantees on what will or won't be implemented. I'm just saying that if a user has a strong desire to see something happen in MAME, they should take it upon themselves to do some legwork of writing up clear and detailed descriptions of what they want. If Derrick Renaud does not have the time or inclination to fix it, then having a detailed request will give a different developer a fighting chance of implementing the requested feature.

However, even writing up a detailed request is no guarantee that anything will be done about it. Maybe no developer will be interested in helping even if the end user has presented the problem to them on a silver platter. I left out saying this in my previous message as I couldn't think of a good way to say it, and also because I didn't want to present discouragement along with the hopeful message that I thought I was giving, but maybe I should have included that disclaimer.

> If you want to fix this problem, talk to Derrick Renaud. He is the alpha and the
> omega of inputs and gear shifts. And that's why it was stupid for xiaou2 to piss him
> off.

I'm suggesting to xiao2 that his best chance at effecting change is to do his part and document things in a way that makes Derrick Renaud's job easier. I know I have been involved in discussions on these forums about gear shift controls and other controls over the past few months and if someone would take the time to track these issues, keep a summary of the options, and work towards having a description of a solution that could be coded up, then I think this problem would be alot closer to being solved (this implies that there really is a problem with the way that shifter controls and other controls are coded in MAME, which is of course debateable, but it's not the point I'm trying to make).



jazzx
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Re: stfu new [Re: Derrick Renaud]
#236424 - 10/15/10 07:17 AM


Yes. Derrick could hardly say it better.

MAME is the greatest free program to ever grace the internet.

Due to its contributors, it has evolved from small beginnings to the giant leviathan of a program we have today. Catering for multiple controllers, operating systems, Mac & PC, 32 & 64 bit. It has a choice of frontends and packed with all sorts of features. It emulates games over a timespan of over 25 years of videogame history.

Because none of its many features have been "rushed out" to meet production deadlines, the result is, for the most part, one of the most professional pieces of software you'll ever see! It can now successfully emulate some processor intensive 3D games that weren't even in the arcade when the first version was released with a smattering of 80s games.

But being evolved, sometimes that evolution takes a direction that might not cater for exactly what you would like to see, whether that be support for the original controller in a given game or supporting a strangely configured computer.

For example, I would love to see midi support, so I could play my synthesiser on my favourite game, Beatmania.

What will be my reaction if that doesn't happen in the near future?

"WAAAAHHH!! BOO HOO!!!! I WANT MY MONEY BACK!!!!"

... erm .. this is free, of course. The only people who pay are those white knights who donate to the project for the benefit of all users. Or run the websites which help keep things up and running.

Thanks to their efforts, our computers can have a museum of unique working arcade games, which would need a sports stadium to house in the non-virtual world.


So - to anyone who wants to start making demands of the development team, chucking your toys & games (several thousand of them) out of the pram and into daddy's (the developer's) face because your favourite one doesn't work as you want - why don't you do the decent thing, delete MAME from your computer and see if you can find ANY piece of professional software that does the same thing, and updates as regularly? Then, and only then, will you be able to play the disgruntled customer.

Enough of that, I'm off to have some fun ...
My new 64-bit computer is able to play Tekken3 and a bunch of other 3d monsters that my old system couldn't handle. (and the beauty of the program is that it caters for all systems - so many games, lots of fun).

Thankyou developers!

JazzX



Andrew
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Re: Video Pinball new [Re: krick]
#236431 - 10/15/10 01:55 PM


> To emulate it properly, the output from MAME would then need to be perspective corrected to match the angle of the artwork photograph, then overlaid on top.

I remember playing with that feature in StretchMAME a few years ago. I think Jan Klaassen added that nifty fishbowl effect to FBA a while back. Sheesh talk about a blast from the past.





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Derrick Renaud
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Re: stfu new [Re: Bryan Ischo]
#236442 - 10/15/10 04:28 PM


For what I propose for the gearshifts to follow the current MAME source, see:
http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/sho...true#Post232699

Obviously this does not cover other types of custom controls such as 720. For that maybe some type of PORT_FAKE_CONTROL("xx")/PORT_REAL_CONTROL("xx") system to conditionaly connect them per a UI selection. Where "xx" is the string the UI will show to select from. I have not put a lot of thought into that though.

As for other unused control info. I added PORT_FULL_TURN_COUNT, that tells how many times a control will increment in 1 full turn, such as PORT_FULL_TURN_COUNT(72) for Tempest. This would eventually allow you to specify the full turn count on your control, so it automatically scales the sensitivity to be the same. Eg, specify your control has 1200 count, then the sensitivity would be set to 6%. =72/1200*100. Other info could be added in a similar manner.

Other non emulation things programmers could add are:
XML help based system, were a tag is added to UI items and help.xml is searched for that tag and the info is displayed. help\gamename.xml would also be searched for any extra setup info for that menu item. A UI key such as [F1] would be defined to display the info when the UI is displayed, a menu item is highlighted and the button pressed.

XML based control name override, where control\gamename.xml would be searched to override button/control PORT_NAME info.



Bryan Ischo
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Posts: 358
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Re: stfu new [Re: Derrick Renaud]
#236460 - 10/15/10 06:30 PM


> For what I propose for the gearshifts to follow the current MAME source, see:
> http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/sho...true#Post232699

Thank you, that is very interesting and informative.

Now all we need to do is get xiaou2 to contribute positive, helpful discussion to that topic instead of this one and I think all will be good!!!


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