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drewcifer
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QSound typing time.
#249247 - 03/19/11 01:37 AM


s_bastian has done it again!

After numerous heroic efforts to get enough free time to work on MAME, s_bastian has come through again with the Typing Monkeys project! This time it's the QSound chip the doc most recently decapped. Many of you already know the drill, but there are a couple of new options for you to play with this time.

First. Take a look at this image:
http://www.progettoemma.net/dump/example.png
That is how the data is laid out in the chip. In other words, if you're on an edge, please ignore that column of 1's on the left (or right) side.

Second. Since there are some regions of the ROM that are very difficult to make out, multiple photographs have been taken of certain sections of the ROM. If you are having an extremely difficult time reading some of the bits, save you work, then try clicking on the "Image 01", "Image 02", or "Image 03" radio selections and click the "Apply Filters" button. If there is a different photo of the section you're working on, it will appear in the image window.

I completed a dsp16a disassembler and committed it to the MAME tree awhile back, so once we get all this stuff typed in, we can start trying to decode the bits immediately.

Without further ado:
http://www.progettoemma.net/dump/

Thanks again goes out to s_bastian and Dr. Decapitator. Happy typing!
Andrew

PS. A little dot is a '1' and an empty space is a '0'



CrapBoardSoftware
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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: drewcifer]
#249251 - 03/19/11 01:55 AM


This was/is more diffcult to understand than the previous setups...



drewcifer
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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: CrapBoardSoftware]
#249252 - 03/19/11 01:59 AM


> This was/is more diffcult to understand than the previous setups...

What, exactly, does the word "This" refer to in the sentence above?

The images themselves? The "dot is 1" ; "blank space is 0" thing? The "Image01," "Image02," "Image03" thing? The whole experience?



CrapBoardSoftware
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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: drewcifer]
#249253 - 03/19/11 02:03 AM


> > This was/is more diffcult to understand than the previous setups...
>
> What, exactly, does the word "This" refer to in the sentence above?
>
> The images themselves? The "dot is 1" ; "blank space is 0" thing? The "Image01,"
> "Image02," "Image03" thing? The whole experience?

The GUTTER thing, for example. Do i have to write it for the blank row the first half of each image too?

EDIT: seems so. Otherwise the check complains about that probably not all rows were processed. Maybe you should add that to the description?



drewcifer
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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: CrapBoardSoftware]
#249254 - 03/19/11 02:13 AM


> The GUTTER thing, for example. Do i have to write it for the blank row the first half
> of each image too?
>
> EDIT: seems so. Otherwise the check complains about that probably not all rows were
> processed. Maybe you should add that to the description?

It's true. Each ROM has a different layout. Some of 'em are a bit harder to decipher than others. How can we improve the image i pointed in the original post, so that it better explains things?
http://www.progettoemma.net/dump/example.png

[edit] : Oh, i see. it's the thing at the bottom. Huh, i dunno. But everyone's doing a good job so far. I'll ask s_bastian to write something about it at some point. Thanks for the suggestion!

Andrew



iq_132
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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: drewcifer]
#249255 - 03/19/11 02:16 AM


Just did a couple, looks LA03 & LA04 are all 0's?



CrapBoardSoftware
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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: drewcifer]
#249256 - 03/19/11 02:16 AM


> > The GUTTER thing, for example. Do i have to write it for the blank row the first
> half
> > of each image too?
> >
> > EDIT: seems so. Otherwise the check complains about that probably not all rows were
> > processed. Maybe you should add that to the description?
>
> It's true. Each ROM has a different layout. Some of 'em are a bit harder to decipher
> than others. How can we improve the image i pointed in the original post, so that it
> better explains things?
> http://www.progettoemma.net/dump/example.png
>
> Andrew

The text 'GUTTER" to write after row 8 was not clear at first for me. Oh and btw: please make the box containing the image already large enough so that we do not have to scroll...



drewcifer
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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: CrapBoardSoftware]
#249257 - 03/19/11 02:19 AM


> The text 'GUTTER" to write after row 8 was not clear at first for me. Oh and btw:
> please make the box containing the image already large enough so that we do not have
> to scroll...

I added this to my last post (likely after you started to reply to it):

[edit] : Oh, i see. it's the thing at the bottom. Huh, i dunno. But everyone's doing a good job so far. I'll ask s_bastian to write something about it at some point. Thanks for the suggestion!

Yeah, the gutter thing is no big deal.

As far as the image box thing, I think s_bastian had a reason for that originally, but I'm not sure. He'll be along to read this at some point, and if he's got some time, I'm sure he'll do what he can.

Andrew



drewcifer
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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: iq_132]
#249258 - 03/19/11 02:20 AM


> Just did a couple, looks LA03 & LA04 are all 0's?

Yup. Lots of 'em are. Thanks for the bits !



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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: drewcifer]
#249259 - 03/19/11 02:25 AM


I also agree that the descriptions are confusing.

Took me a while to figure out why I was only seeing 7 bits on the left side of the images. Didnt realize that the first bar was connected to the 1st bits.

To make things easier, I suggest you overlay at least one image, or partial image, with actual values over the bits. That will show visually, without any need for description, of how things are supposed to be recorded.

Also, instead of writing Gutter, the letter G should suffice. Theres no reason to make people type even more than they absolutely have to.


In your description, you list the red line as the gutter... which does not make sense. In the image, the red line separates the left bits from the right... which is good, cause it helps visually break up the image. Last time I had to tape a piece of string on my monitor to achieve this same thing - which sucked, as it left tape residue behind.

I believe you meant to say that the blank horizontal rows that have no bits at all, are gutters. Such as Ive noticed between rows 7 & 8.

You also do not say if gutter is supposed to be written before row zero, and after row 15. And, are gutters really needed to be written? If they are all the same, then why bother to write them in?



drewcifer
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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: StevieWunderful]
#249260 - 03/19/11 02:33 AM


> I also agree that the descriptions are confusing.

I haven't read the descriptions myself.

> Took me a while to figure out why I was only seeing 7 bits on the left side of the
> images. Didnt realize that the first bar was connected to the 1st bits.

Since I'm not sure what you mean here, there must be something confusing going on. I think there are always 8 bits on the left side and 8 bits on the right side? Hopefully this is the case. I believe s_bastian used an automated image splitter, so it may have shifted in some cases.

> To make things easier, I suggest you overlay at least one image, or partial image,
> with actual values over the bits. That will show visually, without any need for
> description, of how things are supposed to be recorded.

This would totally help, yeah.

> Also, instead of writing Gutter, the letter G should suffice. Theres no reason to
> make people type even more than they absolutely have to.

You don't actually have to type GUTTER. Just do two carriage returns there.


> In your description, you list the red line as the gutter... which does not make
> sense. In the image, the red line separates the left bits from the right... which is
> good, cause it helps visually break up the image. Last time I had to tape a piece of
> string on my monitor to achieve this same thing - which sucked, as it left tape
> residue behind.

Yeah, we should change that to separator or something. Glad it's useful to ya!

> I believe you meant to say that the blank horizontal rows that have no bits at all,
> are gutters. Such as Ive noticed between rows 7 & 8.

Word.

> You also do not say if gutter is supposed to be written before row zero, and after
> row 15. And, are gutters really needed to be written? If they are all the same, then
> why bother to write them in?

Not needed. That should be easy for s_bastian to change on the page. Thank you too for the bits!

Andrew



drewcifer
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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: CrapBoardSoftware]
#249261 - 03/19/11 02:35 AM


One request: Please only do data entry for a single image once, and then move on to the next one. For example, if you have typed in bits for LA06.png, please move on to LA07.png next. This helps us eliminate any bias people have when viewing a certain image. 3 heads are often better than one!

Thanks for all type typing Falcone!
Andrew



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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: drewcifer]
#249264 - 03/19/11 02:42 AM


> > Just did a couple, looks LA03 & LA04 are all 0's?
>
> Yup. Lots of 'em are. Thanks for the bits !

Quick question - LC00 has a weird column (the first one). I'm not sure if there are two bits stored there or one? Marking that column ? for now.



drewcifer
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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: iq_132]
#249267 - 03/19/11 02:46 AM


> > > Just did a couple, looks LA03 & LA04 are all 0's?
> >
> > Yup. Lots of 'em are. Thanks for the bits !
>
> Quick question - LC00 has a weird column (the first one). I'm not sure if there are
> two bits stored there or one? Marking that column ? for now.

Take another look at this image:
http://www.progettoemma.net/dump/example.png

See how there is a column of 1's on the far left that isn't actually marked with a colored dot? That's because it's on the far left edge of the die, and those 1's are to be ignored. It's confusing, I know. I'm sure it's tripping up a lot of people, so I'll likely go in by hand at a later date and clean up the obvious ones.

Andrew



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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: drewcifer]
#249276 - 03/19/11 04:05 AM


> One request: Please only do data entry for a single image once, and then move on to
> the next one
. For example, if you have typed in bits for LA06.png, please move on to
> LA07.png next
. This helps us eliminate any bias people have when viewing a certain
> image. 3 heads are often better than one!
>
> Thanks for all type typing Falcone!
> Andrew

Shoot. I'm sorry. I started off by doing like you requested here, but then I did one that was the last on the page. I should've trusted my instincts 'cause I thought to myself "Maybe I should only do them in order, to avoid confusing people". Then I didn't listen to my own advice! If I haven't been banned from interpreting these, I'll be sure to follow in order from now on.

BTW - What do I do if I've tried negative, contrast, all images and I'm still lost? For example, I have a WIP for "LG06.png", due to 2 bits I can't be certain of. Do I submit my best guess and mark it as completed or should I just leave it as a WIP for now?

Edited by takearushfan (03/19/11 04:12 AM)



BIOS-D
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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: takearushfan]
#249280 - 03/19/11 04:16 AM


> > One request: Please only do data entry for a single image once, and then move on to
> > the next one. For example, if you have typed in bits for LA06.png, please move on
> to
> > LA07.png next. This helps us eliminate any bias people have when viewing a certain
> > image. 3 heads are often better than one!
> >
> > Thanks for all type typing Falcone!
> > Andrew
>
> Shoot. I'm sorry. I started off by doing like you requested here, but then I did one
> that was the last on the page. I should've trusted my instincts 'cause I thought to
> myself "Maybe I should only do them in order, to avoid confusing people". Then I
> didn't listen to my own advice! If I haven't been banned from interpreting these,
> I'll be sure to follow in order from now on.
>
> BTW - What do I do if I've tried negative, contrast, all images and I'm still lost?
> For example, I have a WIP for "LG06.png", due to 2 bits I can't be certain of. Do I
> submit my best guess and mark it as completed or should I just leave it as a WIP for
> now?

As stated on the description, if you believe the value is a '1' but you're not sure, type 'H'. If it looks like is a '0', type 'L'. If you can't tell what value is, just type '?'.

BTW, I'm sorry my first image had no gutter, description was not very clear. So if I got this right and for a image filled with zeros it should look like this.


Code:


00000000 00000000
00000000 00000000
00000000 00000000
00000000 00000000
00000000 00000000
00000000 00000000
00000000 00000000
00000000 00000000

00000000 00000000
00000000 00000000
00000000 00000000
00000000 00000000
00000000 00000000
00000000 00000000
00000000 00000000
00000000 00000000



Double spaced line should either be blank or have the word GUTTER on it.

EDIT: Damn it, misread the question. Just forget it. ^_^U

Edited by BIOS-D (03/19/11 04:29 AM)



drewcifer
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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: takearushfan]
#249291 - 03/19/11 06:07 AM


> Shoot. I'm sorry. I started off by doing like you requested here, but then I did one
> that was the last on the page.

Oh, I'm sorry, I misspoke. I didn't mean that you absolutely must do them in order. Just that we prefer it if you don't do the same image twice. I should have said "then move on to some other one" rather than "then move on to the next one."

You help, as well as the help of everyone else, is much appreciated and we're definitely not interested in banning a helping hand.

Andrew



drewcifer
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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: BIOS-D]
#249293 - 03/19/11 06:17 AM


> As stated on the description, if you believe the value is a '1' but you're not sure,
> type 'H'. If it looks like is a '0', type 'L'. If you can't tell what value is, just
> type '?'.

Yeah, there are going to be some bits that are very difficult to discern with this one. Please do your best using the advice above, and I'll see what I can do once everyone weighs in.

> BTW, I'm sorry my first image had no gutter, description was not very clear. So if I
> got this right and for a image filled with zeros it should look like this.

Understood. It sounds like the consensus is that the description, images, and presentation are much more confusing this time than the previous times. I apologize to all the people who have posted their issues, and appreciate y'all being patient with us.

Don't worry about the gutters and formatting and stuff. I go in by hand after everything is complete and fix the spacing, analyze the differences of opinions, and generally tidy things up, so it's no big deal. It's still work, but it's nowhere near as much work as typing it all in myself. *Everything* is appreciated.

> 00000000 00000000
> 00000000 00000000
> 00000000 00000000
> 00000000 00000000
> 00000000 00000000
> 00000000 00000000
> 00000000 00000000
> 00000000 00000000
>
> 00000000 00000000
> 00000000 00000000
> 00000000 00000000
> 00000000 00000000
> 00000000 00000000
> 00000000 00000000
> 00000000 00000000
> 00000000 00000000

Yeah, the lines above are what one would expect. I should have said this earlier - 8x8 bits on the top-left, 8x8 bits on the top-right, 8x8 bits on the bottom-left, and 8x8 bits on the bottom-right. As I mentioned to xiaou2 earlier, there may be some image cutting issues though, so I'll look into that when the administration tool gets some tuning.

> EDIT: Damn it, misread the question. Just forget it. ^_^U

No worries. The more questions and answers I read, the more of an understanding I get of how this stuff looks to people.

Thanks for your input and your time!
Andrew



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Hey nirv, do only 1 image then move to another one. new [Re: drewcifer]
#249303 - 03/19/11 06:46 AM


nirv, avoid doing the same image twice.



Firehawke
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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: drewcifer]
#249327 - 03/19/11 10:20 AM


Got a little time to spend while waiting for my turn to come around again on a charity event, so I'll fill in what I can. Hopefully I'm putting in correct information!



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BIOS-D
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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: Firehawke]
#249329 - 03/19/11 10:26 AM


> Got a little time to spend while waiting for my turn to come around again on a
> charity event, so I'll fill in what I can. Hopefully I'm putting in correct
> information!

If I can make a suggestion, I found out a bit near gutter in RE03.png that looked like a '0' but turned up a '1' when apply negative filter.

So for everyone make sure you turn monitor bright up or double check with a second picture on negative filter.



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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: BIOS-D]
#249330 - 03/19/11 10:29 AM


Brightness IS way up, so if you're looking at my work and noting something wrong, I'm not sure where. You said E03? I can't go back and look at that one again, so it's a bit hard to doublecheck now.



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BIOS-D
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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: Firehawke]
#249331 - 03/19/11 10:40 AM


> Brightness IS way up, so if you're looking at my work and noting something wrong, I'm
> not sure where. You said E03? I can't go back and look at that one again, so it's a
> bit hard to doublecheck now.

Sorry about that, it was only a general comment. I just didn't know where to put it.



s_bastian
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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: drewcifer]
#249334 - 03/19/11 11:50 AM


Some overall answers on the situation:

- The "gutter" isse, and overall description of the work to be done. I believed that the EXAMPLE image was clear enough, apparently not many users found it as useful as I thought. Sorry for not being clear, I'll enable Andrew to actually edit THAT part of the text so that he can fix it "on the fly" in case it is not clear.
- The image chopping: This image was a hell of a matter, as it has no actual vertical gutter to use as reference, and horizontal gutter is one every 8 rows. For this reason it has been cut into smaller chunks than previous (last one was a 32x16, now we have a 16x16). This may seem annoying now, but you'll thank me when you will arrive at the bottom of each bank, when you will have to switch between totally white and totally black images and do some guesswork too. It is mind-numbing to try to understand those portions. Tiling should be correct, I've made some checks before putting everything online
- The scrolling image box. This has always been the same since the first job. Why? Because if you don't have this most users will not be able to fit the image and the typing area into the same screen. I believe it is much better to have a fix typing area and scrolling just a portion of the image, than having to scroll the whole page up and down for every bit you read

Anything else? Please ask, I'll do my best to fix.



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www.progettoemma.net



9ofzeven
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Use Firebug... new [Re: drewcifer]
#249335 - 03/19/11 11:57 AM Attachment: screenshot.png 104 KB (0 downloads)


... to change the image height to around 60px. This makes it really easy to have only one line of data on the screen.

Edit: +screenshot

[ATTACHED IMAGE - CLICK FOR FULL SIZE]

Attachment

Edited by 9ofzeven (03/19/11 01:25 PM)



Firehawke
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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: drewcifer]
#249336 - 03/19/11 12:01 PM


There seems to be a good amount of overlapping going on. I'll enter one of the slots, only to see it get overwritten by someone else..

This could make for a lot of wasted work.



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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: Firehawke]
#249338 - 03/19/11 12:23 PM


> There seems to be a good amount of overlapping going on. I'll enter one of the slots,
> only to see it get overwritten by someone else..
>
> This could make for a lot of wasted work.

We know this is a issue but there is not much we can do. This is the reason why we ask to MARK THE IMAGE as WIP as soon as you take it on



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9ofzeven
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Some suggestions new [Re: drewcifer]
#249339 - 03/19/11 12:25 PM


Here is how I would have liked to read the instructions:

How to enter: (put this at the top of the page where work is done.)

"
Text field has the same orientation as the image, therefore start by looking at the top left of the image and enter the data line-wise from left to right.
Enter a bit by typing "1" for a dotted spotted and "0" for a blank spot.
If you are not 100% sure, type "H" instead of "1" or "L" instead of "0".
If you have no clue, type "?".
The two 8-bit fields per line are to be separated by a space character.
After the first 8 lines, insert an empty line or type "GUTTER". Do this only once per image.
"
I think that the example with the colored circles is totally misleading, just show a sample image + corresponding text field and put the png right on the page instead of making users click.

At the bottom of the page, below Save:
Put a note what will happen next: namely that your entry and name will likely disappear and be replaced by a new todo.
Mention that at the end of the project, credit will be given - this is what people are interested in.

Edit:
Also put a note on the top of the "working on" page that says: "If you are serious about this, enter your name and save as WIP now."

Edited by 9ofzeven (03/19/11 12:43 PM)



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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: drewcifer]
#249340 - 03/19/11 12:31 PM


Problem with a double post on RI05.png, I set the extra to abandon



Layne
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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: drewcifer]
#249341 - 03/19/11 12:36 PM


Some people is doing 2 or 3 times the same image (RK05.png done 3 times by Fizbam).



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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: drewcifer]
#249349 - 03/19/11 02:48 PM


awesome news. QSound emulation getting improvements



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bodger319
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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: drewcifer]
#249352 - 03/19/11 03:55 PM


The last time the Typing Monkeys were called upon, the job was finished before I found out about it so I have really enjoyed being able to be involved this time and do my little bit.

I found the scrolling image made it easier to keep track of which line I was working on. If the whole image had been on screen I would have been holding a ruler against the monitor at various times.

I donŽt know whether this would be technically possible but IŽll throw the idea in anyway.
What if people log in and are allocated an image to work on.
If they find the image too difficult, they can abandon it and be allocated a different one.
If this was possible it could eliminate the problems of someone doing the same image several times and of overlapping.

Regards
Mark

PS IŽll do a few more blocks later on if any are left but I need to give my eyes and brain a break from all the 0s and 1s.



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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: bodger319]
#249353 - 03/19/11 04:00 PM


> What if people log in and are allocated an image to work on.
> If they find the image too difficult, they can abandon it and be allocated a
> different one.
> If this was possible it could eliminate the problems of someone doing the same image
> several times and of overlapping.

No extra login for me. It will maybe seem strange to others, but that would be a slight barrier that i think will prohibit me from participating. It's in the easy come-and-go...



bodger319
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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: CrapBoardSoftware]
#249354 - 03/19/11 04:15 PM


> No extra login for me. It will maybe seem strange to others, but that would be a
> slight barrier that i think will prohibit me from participating. It's in the easy
> come-and-go...

However at the moment you enter your name, select WIP, submit that and then carry on. Or at least that is how I have understood the instructions and am doing.
If the method I suggested was feasible you would just enter your name and submit it.

Regards
Mark



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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: bodger319]
#249355 - 03/19/11 04:18 PM


> > No extra login for me. It will maybe seem strange to others, but that would be a
> > slight barrier that i think will prohibit me from participating. It's in the easy
> > come-and-go...
>
> However at the moment you enter your name, select WIP, submit that and then carry on.
> Or at least that is how I have understood the instructions and am doing.
> If the method I suggested was feasible you would just enter your name and submit it.
>
> Regards
> Mark

But that would precede a registration somehow. (Too) many accounts already, for if i don't even know if i will (have an) use of (them) at later time. That's like a "binding" in some way



Pochi
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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: s_bastian]
#249356 - 03/19/11 04:30 PM


As long as it saves and compares all submissions marked "completed" extra eyes can't hurt.



Olivier Galibert
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Looks like it's done new [Re: drewcifer]
#249359 - 03/19/11 05:23 PM


You guys rock :-)

OG.



bodger319
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Re: Looks like it's done new [Re: Olivier Galibert]
#249360 - 03/19/11 05:53 PM


> You guys rock :-)
>
> OG.

I just did my small bit (or multiple Bits ) for the project.

IMHO the praise should go to the following people.
1) The fundraisers that got us the chip
2) The Decapper
3) The organiser of the "Typing Monkey" project
4) The people who will make sense of all the 0s and 1s

However my personal thanks go to all of the Typing Monkeys for leaving some for me to do.
With the last chip they didnŽt

Regards Mark



Pochi
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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: Layne]
#249362 - 03/19/11 06:14 PM


> Some people is doing 2 or 3 times the same image (RK05.png done 3 times by Fizbam).

Maybe if someone saves a second file for an image they have already completed, a nice message could pop up requesting that they select a different image? Like if XXXY saves a completed reading of image AA, and then tries to save a WIP in a different slot for image AA, a page could pop up saying something like "You have already submitted a reading of this image. It is key to the project that at least three different people submit readings of the image. You can best help us out by selecting a different image."

Same sort of thing could help prevent collisions. If XXXY has saved a WIP for image AA slot 1 and then YYYZ saves a WIP for the same image and slot, a message could pop up for YYYZ saying that XXXY appears to be working on the image, and to avoid duplication of work, would they please select another image.



bodger319
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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: Pochi]
#249365 - 03/19/11 06:39 PM


> > Some people is doing 2 or 3 times the same image (RK05.png done 3 times by Fizbam).
>
This could be because it is all 0s and it doesnŽt require two other people to confirm it.
Yes, Fizbam didnŽt follow the instructions but maybe he had a good reason.
Maybe slection buttons for all 1s and all 0s.
Then for these unused spaces, 3 people dont have to type in 256 0s or 1s. It gets flagged up by the first person as an unused space. If required and it is not all 0s or 1s then it could be put back out for typing.

Regards
Mark



drewcifer
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Re: Looks like it's done new [Re: Olivier Galibert]
#249368 - 03/19/11 07:14 PM


> You guys rock :-)
>
> OG.

Yeah, y'all are great, thanks for the help!

I won't have much time to work on it today, but watch for an update to this thread in the next couple of days. I may mark a few of the completed ones as undone for various reasons.

At any rate, thanks for the help, thanks for the suggestions, and thanks for moving QSound one step closer to being an emulated chip!

Andrew



mike20599
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I thought QSound was already emulated? new [Re: drewcifer]
#249377 - 03/19/11 10:09 PM


Some smart person tell me what this accomplishes plz.



CrapBoardSoftware
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Re: I thought QSound was already emulated? new [Re: mike20599]
#249378 - 03/19/11 10:14 PM


> Some smart person tell me what this accomplishes plz.

A sample player was used IIRC to simulate the QSound spatializer in generic stereo space. But not the actual chip with it's internal ROM which has a DSP16 core.



takearushfan
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Re: Looks like it's done new [Re: drewcifer]
#249379 - 03/19/11 10:28 PM Attachment: huh.gif 25 KB (0 downloads)


Can someone help me out? The banner/explanation loads, but the actual files don't. The attached image is all I get.

[ATTACHED IMAGE - CLICK FOR FULL SIZE]

Attachment



BIOS-D
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Re: Looks like it's done new [Re: takearushfan]
#249380 - 03/19/11 10:31 PM


> Can someone help me out? The banner/explanation loads, but the actual files don't.
> The attached image is all I get.

That's because there aren't images left to type. Hence, the subject "Looks like it's done" in these posts.



R. Belmont
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Re: I thought QSound was already emulated? new [Re: mike20599]
#249382 - 03/19/11 11:09 PM


> Some smart person tell me what this accomplishes plz.

The sample playback aspect of the QSound chip was previously HLE'd, but with no actual QSound HRTF processing. This gets us 100% arcade-perfect sound including the QSound effect.



StilettoAdministrator
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Re: Looks like it's done new [Re: drewcifer]
#249383 - 03/19/11 11:22 PM


> > You guys rock :-)
> >
> > OG.
>
> Yeah, y'all are great, thanks for the help!

I enjoy working on these, but as luck would have it, I headed out for the evening Friday before you posted this, came home and crashed, and slept in for a good long time. It came as a complete shock to realize that it was ALL done at noontime today.

Good job, guys!

- Stileto



CrapBoardSoftware
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Re: Looks like it's done new [Re: Stiletto]
#249387 - 03/19/11 11:49 PM


> > > You guys rock :-)
> > >
> > > OG.
> >
> > Yeah, y'all are great, thanks for the help!
>
> I enjoy working on these, but as luck would have it, I headed out for the evening
> Friday before you posted this, came home and crashed, and slept in for a good long
> time. It came as a complete shock to realize that it was ALL done at noontime today.
>
> Good job, guys!
>
> - Stileto

It was like this for me during the last collaboration



takearushfan
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Re: Looks like it's done new [Re: BIOS-D]
#249392 - 03/20/11 01:18 AM


> > Can someone help me out? The banner/explanation loads, but the actual files don't.
> > The attached image is all I get.
>
> That's because there aren't images left to type. Hence, the subject "Looks like it's
> done" in these posts.




mike20599
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Ah OK thanks! -NT- new [Re: R. Belmont]
#249402 - 03/20/11 04:23 AM


-NT-



takearushfan
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Re: Looks like it's done new [Re: drewcifer]
#249445 - 03/20/11 08:27 PM


> ... watch for an update to this thread in
> the next couple of days. I may mark a few of the completed ones as undone for various
> reasons.

As lame as this sounds, I hope you do have more for us to work on. I have no life so it was rather enjoyable to work on those images. Bring it on



Lord Nightmare
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Re: Looks like it's done new [Re: takearushfan]
#249453 - 03/21/11 12:50 AM


> > ... watch for an update to this thread in
> > the next couple of days. I may mark a few of the completed ones as undone for
> various
> > reasons.
>
> As lame as this sounds, I hope you do have more for us to work on. I have no life so
> it was rather enjoyable to work on those images. Bring it on

You can help typing the sin/cos/tan/etc tables from the snes Cx4 chip... I still need to get s_bastian to set that up. (the cx4 doesn't actually seem to have any REAL rom in it, the real rom is probably located hidden within the megaman x2 and x3 snes code!)

LN



"When life gives you zombies... *CHA-CHIK!* ...you make zombie-ade!"



takearushfan
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Re: Looks like it's done new [Re: Lord Nightmare]
#249466 - 03/21/11 09:10 AM


> You can help typing the sin/cos/tan/etc tables from the snes Cx4 chip... I still need
> to get s_bastian to set that up. (the cx4 doesn't actually seem to have any REAL rom
> in it, the real rom is probably located hidden within the megaman x2 and x3 snes
> code!)
>
> LN

That's cool. I'll be on the lookout



drewcifer
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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: drewcifer]
#249492 - 03/21/11 08:47 PM


Results are in, and the left side is completely done!

The right side, however, had a few more snags. It seems as though the biggest sticking point is the "doing the same image multiple times" thing. Someone in this thread suggested we add a check for this situation, and I agree, it would be a good thing to do.

This time around, there was one user who made it a point to intentionally do everything s/he could to mess up the data. Good thing we've got checks for this sort of thing. It was just a matter of minutes to delete their work...

There are a handful of chunks back up for typing. Once these are out of the way, we should be able to move on to decoding things!
http://www.progettoemma.net/dump/

Andrew



s_bastian
Wasting time at work...
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Re: Looks like it's done new [Re: Lord Nightmare]
#249493 - 03/21/11 09:08 PM


> You can help typing the sin/cos/tan/etc tables from the snes Cx4 chip... I still need
> to get s_bastian to set that up. (the cx4 doesn't actually seem to have any REAL rom
> in it, the real rom is probably located hidden within the megaman x2 and x3 snes
> code!)
>
> LN

if my real life situation gets a little better I'll be glad to set everythign up. I had to become ill with 38.5 fever to find some time...



The first Italian MAME resource at
www.progettoemma.net



SmitdoggAdministrator
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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: drewcifer]
#249494 - 03/21/11 09:11 PM



> This time around, there was one user who made it a point to intentionally do
> everything s/he could to mess up the data. Good thing we've got checks for this sort
> of thing. It was just a matter of minutes to delete their work...

What's the IP so it can be banned from the forums if it hasn't already been?



drewcifer
One bad Mutha-(shut yo' mouth!)
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Posts: 427
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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: Smitdogg]
#249495 - 03/21/11 09:17 PM


> > This time around, there was one user who made it a point to intentionally do
> > everything s/he could to mess up the data. Good thing we've got checks for this
> sort
> > of thing. It was just a matter of minutes to delete their work...
>
> What's the IP so it can be banned from the forums if it hasn't already been?

check yer privates.



SmitdoggAdministrator
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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: drewcifer]
#249496 - 03/21/11 09:18 PM


There's no need to protect an asshole's privacy but ok.



Mr. DoAdministrator
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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: drewcifer]
#249498 - 03/21/11 09:35 PM


> Results are in, and the left side is completely done!
>
> The right side, however, had a few more snags. It seems as though the biggest
> sticking point is the "doing the same image multiple times" thing. Someone in this
> thread suggested we add a check for this situation, and I agree, it would be a good
> thing to do.
>
> This time around, there was one user who made it a point to intentionally do
> everything s/he could to mess up the data. Good thing we've got checks for this sort
> of thing. It was just a matter of minutes to delete their work...
>
> There are a handful of chunks back up for typing. Once these are out of the way, we
> should be able to move on to decoding things!
> http://www.progettoemma.net/dump/
>
> Andrew

This is surprisingly refreshing. (???)

Just knocked out about 10. Come do some more after I pick up my daughter.



TafoidAdministrator
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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: drewcifer]
#249499 - 03/21/11 09:41 PM


> > > This time around, there was one user who made it a point to intentionally do
> > > everything s/he could to mess up the data. Good thing we've got checks for this
> > sort
> > > of thing. It was just a matter of minutes to delete their work...
> >
> > What's the IP so it can be banned from the forums if it hasn't already been?
>
> check yer privates.

Hook me up with some IP, bro. We all have places we want to protect. Such sabotage must be dealt with



Mr. DoAdministrator
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Looks like Round 2 is done new [Re: Mr. Do]
#249501 - 03/21/11 10:28 PM



> This is surprisingly refreshing. (???)
>
> Just knocked out about 10. Come do some more after I pick up my daughter.


< 2hrs for everybody



Firehawke
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Re: Looks like it's done new [Re: Lord Nightmare]
#249506 - 03/21/11 11:36 PM


I'm definitely up for helping with that, just say the word when it's up for work.



drewcifer
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Re: Looks like Round 2 is done new [Re: Mr. Do]
#249511 - 03/22/11 12:17 AM


> < 2hrs for everybody

Yeah, and quality was very high for these last few!

We've now completed typing all bits for the QSound dsp16a embedded CPU. Big thanks goes to everyone who helped:

9ofzeven, Akka, AnDyC, AV23, Ava Pug, BIOS-D, Blokey, bodger319, ChuKy, Danzivar, DeeDee, Dr. Spankenstein, Falcone, Firehawke, Frankie, gnoppi, Hurray Banana, iq_132, K, kjg2007, Kosmo, KWSM, Layne, leniad, monkey, MonkeyEgg, Mr. Do, mux, NaokiS, neofrank, niiiih, nirv, OHWEOW, Pernod, phibo, Pochi, QM, qs, r09, Robbie, Rockman, Russ H., Sacrilego, takearushfan, x_wins, ZSD

There are large vertical swaths of 0s in the data, seemingly implying its orientation is rotated (+-)90 degrees. It doesn't pop right in, but there may be any combination of mirroring going on, so it'll take a little fiddling.

Unfortunately, this imaging sequence had a few more questionable bits than earlier ones. This is due mostly to the imaging technique, but there are roughly 8 bits that are covered by crud, making them completely unreadable. Couple that with the fact that the CPU core doesn't exist yet, and we've got ourselves a challenge on our hands!

Wish us luck. I'll keep y'all updated to any progress.

Thanks again to everyone for doing the typing, s_bastian for setting up the webpage, and the Doc for doing the decaps!
Andrew



takearushfan
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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: drewcifer]
#249551 - 03/22/11 08:48 AM


> This time around, there was one user who made it a point to intentionally do
> everything s/he could to mess up the data.

Do you mean that they were merely getting things wrong frequently, which could potentially be accidental, or was this person SO off that you could tell it was deliberate? If it's the latter then they deserve a smack upside the head!



bodger319
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Re: Looks like Round 2 is done new [Re: drewcifer]
#249580 - 03/22/11 08:06 PM


Just out of interest, is there any chance of a few figures and stats?

Rom Size

For first tranche
Total bits typed (size in bytes x 8 x3)
Max number of users on the go at the same time if it is possible to determine this one.
Time taken from start to finish.
Average number of bits per hour/minute.

Same info for the blocks that had to be repeated.

This particular Typing Monkey would see it as a virtual banana

Also until we are next required, how about having a couple of images available on the site wherewith we can hone our skills. ie view the image, type the bits, submit it and get a response how many were correct.?
Maybe four categories, easy, medium, difficult, horrendous ?

Regards,
Mark



redk9258
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Re: Looks like Round 2 is done new [Re: bodger319]
#249586 - 03/22/11 08:59 PM


> This particular Typing Monkey would see it as a virtual banana




CrapBoardSoftware
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Re: Looks like Round 2 is done new [Re: bodger319]
#249587 - 03/22/11 09:23 PM


> Just out of interest, is there any chance of a few figures and stats?
>
> Rom Size
>
> For first tranche
> Total bits typed (size in bytes x 8 x3)
> Max number of users on the go at the same time if it is possible to determine this
> one.
> Time taken from start to finish.
> Average number of bits per hour/minute.
>
> Same info for the blocks that had to be repeated.
>
> This particular Typing Monkey would see it as a virtual banana
>
> Also until we are next required, how about having a couple of images available on the
> site wherewith we can hone our skills. ie view the image, type the bits, submit it
> and get a response how many were correct.?
> Maybe four categories, easy, medium, difficult, horrendous ?
>
> Regards,
> Mark

Why would someone need all that? Are you bored, by chance? :P



bodger319
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Re: Looks like Round 2 is done new [Re: CrapBoardSoftware]
#249588 - 03/22/11 09:31 PM


> Why would someone need all that? Are you bored, by chance? :P

Bored but not bored enough to help with typing in the sin/cos/tan/etc tables from the snes Cx4 chip



BIOS-D
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Re: Looks like Round 2 is done new [Re: bodger319]
#249592 - 03/22/11 10:52 PM


> > Why would someone need all that? Are you bored, by chance? :P
>
> Bored but not bored enough to help with typing in the sin/cos/tan/etc tables from the
> snes Cx4 chip

So you want everyone to compete and forget about quality (let alone the purpose of the project) for the sake of typing as much and fast as you can?

Global stats like total of not duplicated images and amount of ROM size would be interesting once the typing is finished though.



bodger319
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Re: Looks like Round 2 is done new [Re: BIOS-D]
#249594 - 03/22/11 11:12 PM


> So you want everyone to compete and forget about quality (let alone the purpose of
> the project) for the sake of typing as much and fast as you can?
>

I do not understand where you got that impression from.
I would just like to know what we as a group achieved.

> Global stats like total of not duplicated images and amount of ROM size would be
> interesting once the typing is finished though.
The ROM size is the main thing that interests me and, unless I have been misinformed by what has been posted here, the typing is finished.

Regards
Mark



s_bastian
Wasting time at work...
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Re: Looks like Round 2 is done new [Re: bodger319]
#249597 - 03/22/11 11:52 PM


there was no actual timestamping so we cannot understand precisely how much time it took, or average timing of each one, and it is a data we are absolutely not interested in, quality is the priority. But:

Each image consisted of 256 bits
there was a total of 256 images

So, we have a romsize of 65.536 bits, that is 8kb

All images were typed three times
So we have a grand total of 196.608 bits typed

Annnounce was doone at 9.37PM of 18MAR and completed was announced at 1.23PM of 19MAR. That mans that we took less than 16 hours to do the job



DMala
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Re: I thought QSound was already emulated? new [Re: R. Belmont]
#249622 - 03/23/11 05:04 AM


> The sample playback aspect of the QSound chip was previously HLE'd, but with no
> actual QSound HRTF processing. This gets us 100% arcade-perfect sound including the
> QSound effect.

That is some cool beans, right there.



drewcifer
One bad Mutha-(shut yo' mouth!)
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Posts: 427
Loc: Sweden
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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: takearushfan]
#249631 - 03/23/11 06:00 AM


> > This time around, there was one user who made it a point to intentionally do
> > everything s/he could to mess up the data.
>
> Do you mean that they were merely getting things wrong frequently, which could
> potentially be accidental, or was this person SO off that you could tell it was
> deliberate? If it's the latter then they deserve a smack upside the head!

I don't really wanna' say what his methods were since it will kinda' give away some of the things our safeguards protect against, but it became pretty evident after looking at a few of his entries he wasn't just making honest mistakes.

Andrew



BIOS-D
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Re: Looks like Round 2 is done new [Re: s_bastian]
#249632 - 03/23/11 06:03 AM


> there was no actual timestamping so we cannot understand precisely how much time it
> took, or average timing of each one, and it is a data we are absolutely not
> interested in, quality is the priority. But:
>
> Each image consisted of 256 bits
> there was a total of 256 images
>
> So, we have a romsize of 65.536 bits, that is 8kb
>
> All images were typed three times
> So we have a grand total of 196.608 bits typed
>
> Annnounce was doone at 9.37PM of 18MAR and completed was announced at 1.23PM of
> 19MAR. That mans that we took less than 16 hours to do the job

Those are really some interesting stats. I wonder if someday the project will need community to type 2Mb of data. Under the same conditions as this, that would make around:

- 2,097,152 bits = 262,144 Bytes = 256 KB
- 8,192 images * 3
- ~512 hours = ~21 days



drewcifer
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Re: Looks like Round 2 is done new [Re: bodger319]
#249634 - 03/23/11 06:09 AM


> Just out of interest, is there any chance of a few figures and stats?

Thanks, s_bastian, for filling in the ROM size details later in this thread.

As far as timing and user stats go, I agree that they would be fun to see, but additions like that require work, work requires time, and time is something s_bastian and I have very little of these days.

There are actually a bunch of cool things the Image Decode Project could have added to it, but it's serving its purpose now and while it may grow in the future, it's probably going to grow at a slow pace. We'll keep your suggestions in mind though.

Thanks for your bits, and maybe we'll get some additional statistics in someday!
Andrew



drewcifer
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Re: Looks like Round 2 is done new [Re: drewcifer]
#249635 - 03/23/11 06:15 AM


One additional stat is there were 7 bits so covered in gunk, they were unreadable. In other words, I had to leave 7 ?'s in the decap. These will likely be figured out by looking at the disassembled code, but it adds one more annoyance to the emulation of the QSound DSP.

I do have to commend everyone again on their work this time around. There were some very difficult images to work with, and they turned out excellent in almost every case.

Andrew



s_bastian
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Re: Looks like Round 2 is done new [Re: BIOS-D]
#249641 - 03/23/11 09:15 AM


> Those are really some interesting stats. I wonder if someday the project will need
> community to type 2Mb of data. Under the same conditions as this, that would make
> around:
>
> - 2,097,152 bits = 262,144 Bytes = 256 KB
> - 8,192 images * 3
> - ~512 hours = ~21 days

I hope we will never have to work on such huge project. The main success of this is that it is FAST and gets completed before people get bored and frustrated of typing. From previous experiences in other fields, these projects tend to slow down after 3/4 days, and are prone to die if the completion time goes further 15 days, expecially if no actual result is given to the typers, and this will be the case (it makes no sense to publish half of the rom...)

This is anyway just speculation, we will see what happens if we will need such a job done!!



s_bastian
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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: drewcifer]
#249645 - 03/23/11 01:32 PM


> I don't really wanna' say what his methods were since it will kinda' give away some
> of the things our safeguards protect against, but it became pretty evident after
> looking at a few of his entries he wasn't just making honest mistakes.
>
> Andrew

As I told to somebody by PM, the job is done so fast that we can discover messes like these only after the job has been completed. Luckuly enough, we had forseen that somebody might have tried to mess up so we setup a safety routine preventing people to access other people's work when marked as completed. This prevents sabotage like somebody deleting or overwriting with trash other people's work. If we hadn't this, the damage might have been MUCH worst...

For the future, my plan is to setup a compare routine with functions like php's levenshtein() to detect when inputed text is TOO different from other people's entries (some bits may vary, but if 20% is different there is something odd going on!) and mail-report us, so that we can try to block some users by banning IPs, or pruning the sabotage.

The system is anyway growing, each run includes new features and all is studied so that things are modular and can be just tuned and reused (see the mutiple image handling for this run, the system self detects if there is a alternate image and puts the link if applicable ). I just wish I had some more spare time to setup things in anticipation instead of running to cover holes...

Edited by s_bastian (03/23/11 01:33 PM)



bodger319
MAME Fan
Reged: 01/23/06
Posts: 287
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Re: Looks like Round 2 is done new [Re: s_bastian]
#249690 - 03/23/11 10:34 PM


> there was no actual timestamping so we cannot understand precisely how much time it
> took, or average timing of each one, and it is a data we are absolutely not
> interested in, quality is the priority. But:
>
> Each image consisted of 256 bits
> there was a total of 256 images
>
> So, we have a romsize of 65.536 bits, that is 8kb
>
> All images were typed three times
> So we have a grand total of 196.608 bits typed
>
> Annnounce was doone at 9.37PM of 18MAR and completed was announced at 1.23PM of
> 19MAR. That mans that we took less than 16 hours to do the job

I totally agree. Quality and not speed is what is important. Every bit-error will increase the workload on the decoders.
An idea just poppep to mind. In an image two out the three might say a bit is a 1 and the third said it is a 0. The third person may be right and the other two have got it wrong. How about throwing open all "disputed" cases for others to type in? Two out of three is good, four out of six is better when it disagrees with the two out of three.

The ROM-size and time-taken speaks for itself. Just from those can a few amazing stats be exxtracted / extrapolated.
On average more than 16 Images (3 times) typed in every hour although only 101110 ( ) people were working on it.

Regards
Mark



s_bastian
Wasting time at work...
Reged: 06/14/04
Posts: 310
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Re: Looks like Round 2 is done new [Re: bodger319]
#249696 - 03/24/11 12:59 AM


Final result is NOT automated but there is a routine comparing row by row and marking mismatched bits for the control (see image to have an idea, this is where Drewcifer does the magic...



As you can see in "final result", chances of error or different interpretation are also brought forward as reference for error when trying to decode/debug the bits So, chances that a mitype passes trhough the control are anyway low, no matter what is the result with the higher percantage.



drewcifer
One bad Mutha-(shut yo' mouth!)
Reged: 07/01/04
Posts: 427
Loc: Sweden
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Re: Looks like Round 2 is done new [Re: s_bastian]
#249698 - 03/24/11 01:47 AM


He's right though - if we put particularly difficult sections out there for more people to review, it would give us more eyes on the tough stuff.

Couldn't hurt. It (or some more-easy-to-implement version of it) will be added to the ever-growing todo list. Just can't promise a delivery date or anything .

Andrew

> Final result is NOT automated but there is a routine comparing row by row and marking
> mismatched bits for the control (see image to have an idea, this is where Drewcifer
> does the magic...
>
>
> As you can see in "final result", chances of error or different interpretation are
> also brought forward as reference for error when trying to decode/debug the bits So,
> chances that a mitype passes trhough the control are anyway low, no matter what is
> the result with the higher percantage.



takearushfan
MAME Fan
Reged: 02/29/08
Posts: 136
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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: drewcifer]
#249701 - 03/24/11 03:30 AM


> I don't really wanna' say what his methods were since it will kinda' give away some
> of the things our safeguards protect against, but it became pretty evident after
> looking at a few of his entries he wasn't just making honest mistakes.

That's so very wrong. So much for all MAME users being in it for anything other than playing the games. It's not as if the integrity of the data matters or anything crucial like that.
As for me, I figure that I may not be able to code (well), but I do have an eye for details, so I was up for the project.
I guarantee that you can take any contributor who claims to be bored and I'll be 5 times as bored... with 10x less of a life, heh < wait, that's not something I should be proud of



s_bastian
Wasting time at work...
Reged: 06/14/04
Posts: 310
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Re: Looks like Round 2 is done new [Re: drewcifer]
#249728 - 03/24/11 09:48 AM


> He's right though - if we put particularly difficult sections out there for more people
> to review, it would give us more eyes on the tough stuff.
>
> Couldn't hurt. It (or some more-easy-to-implement version of it) will be added to the
> ever-growing todo list. Just can't promise a delivery date or anything .

mmmmm I have to rewrite the database core of it, in order to have a more fexible structure than the one we now have. A way to be able to set the "necessary number of readings" for each single image, not that easy but not even THAT difficult. Got a couple of ideas, let's see what comes out of it....



R. Belmont
Cuckoo for Konami
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 9615
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
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Re: QSound typing time. new [Re: takearushfan]
#249754 - 03/24/11 05:45 PM


> That's so very wrong. So much for all MAME users being in it for anything other than
> playing the games.

I wouldn't even say that - someone who just wants to play the games probably isn't opposed to having correct QSound in the Capcom lineup



Lord Nightmare
Speech Synth Berzerker
Reged: 03/08/04
Posts: 850
Loc: PA, USA
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Re: Looks like it's done new [Re: s_bastian]
#251869 - 04/15/11 02:30 PM


> > You can help typing the sin/cos/tan/etc tables from the snes Cx4 chip... I still
> need
> > to get s_bastian to set that up. (the cx4 doesn't actually seem to have any REAL
> rom
> > in it, the real rom is probably located hidden within the megaman x2 and x3 snes
> > code!)
> >
> > LN
>
> if my real life situation gets a little better I'll be glad to set everythign up. I
> had to become ill with 38.5 fever to find some time...

Chip pictures sent.


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