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edcosta
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monitor
#281096 - 04/01/12 04:29 AM Attachment: Imagem0376.jpg 184 KB (1 downloads)


I recently bought a new monitor 20", but when it lights, a dark stain appears, when I load a game, disappears. any idea?

[ATTACHED IMAGE - CLICK FOR FULL SIZE]

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mogli
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Re: monitor new [Re: edcosta]
#281102 - 04/01/12 04:47 AM


New, or new to you?

That is uber fuckin weird. If the KLOV folks ain't seen nothin like that, then it's a real oddity.



Consider it high comedy....sincere tragedy....whatever...don't take it personally.

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redk9258
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Re: monitor new [Re: edcosta]
#281111 - 04/01/12 05:02 AM


Are the colors correct in that spot? Maybe a magnetic field from that speaker above?



edcosta
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Re: monitor new [Re: redk9258]
#281119 - 04/01/12 05:20 AM


> Are the colors correct in that spot? Maybe a magnetic field from that speaker above?

the colors are correct, CRT owns demag coil , and speakers are armoured, it is not magnetization stain, it is totally dark...
I heard tell that it can be the yoke impedance (13,4 ohms)...



edcosta
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Re: monitor new [Re: mogli]
#281120 - 04/01/12 05:21 AM


> New, or new to you?

totally new, never used...



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Re: monitor new [Re: edcosta]
#281205 - 04/02/12 12:38 AM


> I recently bought a new monitor 20", but when it lights, a dark stain appears, when I
> load a game, disappears. any idea?

The only things I can think of are:

1) Moisture inside the tube.

2) Manufacturing issue with the shadow mask/phosphor screen.



grog
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Re: monitor new [Re: edcosta]
#281215 - 04/02/12 02:08 AM


http://www.ukvac.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=2&title=tech-maintenance-repairs



mogli
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Re: monitor new [Re: edcosta]
#281618 - 04/05/12 09:08 PM


> > Are the colors correct in that spot? Maybe a magnetic field from that speaker
> above?
>
> the colors are correct, CRT owns demag coil , and speakers are armoured, it is not
> magnetization stain, it is totally dark...
> I heard tell that it can be the yoke impedance (13,4 ohms)...

My first thought, which I belayed to see whether it might be outed, was why you weren't apparently hitting up the seller/manufacturer?



Consider it high comedy....sincere tragedy....whatever...don't take it personally.

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Garreth
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Re: monitor new [Re: mogli]
#283819 - 04/25/12 02:03 PM


If your speakers are shielded they must be pretty strong, get em out of there and see if it is fixed, if it is, shield em better...



edcosta
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Re: monitor new [Re: Garreth]
#283869 - 04/26/12 05:27 AM


> If your speakers are shielded they must be pretty strong, get em out of there and see
> if it is fixed, if it is, shield em better...


with other monitor does not happen, therefore it can not be speakers... and this happens after certain time... and speakers are so small...



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Re: monitor new [Re: edcosta]
#283873 - 04/26/12 06:38 AM


> > If your speakers are shielded they must be pretty strong, get em out of there and
> see
> > if it is fixed, if it is, shield em better...
>
>
> with other monitor does not happen, therefore it can not be speakers... and this
> happens after certain time... and speakers are so small...


That doesn't necessarily prove much. Different monitors react in different ways to Gauss.

Having said that, I still say it's a shadow mask/phosphor issue.



Garreth
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Re: monitor new [Re: italie]
#283894 - 04/26/12 10:16 AM


Try twisting the high voltage connector that fits in the top of the screen just a bit, the round thing that looks like a suction pad.
Wear gloves or something !! 10 000 volts !!

If you just play sound of the same khz as your games is the spot then visible, or going away?
And regular speaker shielding is not necessaraly shielding it from magnetism it is a quite open gauze and if it is non ferro
then it is not shielding anything.

Wiring of speakers are also electromagnetic, they are not running close to the screen are they?
Aluminium foil could help testing since it provides some shielding.

Edited by Garreth (04/26/12 11:25 AM)



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Re: monitor new [Re: Garreth]
#283902 - 04/26/12 02:05 PM


> Try twisting the high voltage connector that fits in the top of the screen just a
> bit, the round thing that looks like a suction pad.
> Wear gloves or something !! 10 000 volts !!

Ummm....

> If you just play sound of the same khz as your games is the spot then visible, or
> going away?
> And regular speaker shielding is not necessaraly shielding it from magnetism it is a
> quite open gauze and if it is non ferro
> then it is not shielding anything.

Ummmmm......

> Wiring of speakers are also electromagnetic, they are not running close to the screen
> are they?
> Aluminium foil could help testing since it provides some shielding.

Ugggggggggg....


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Garreth
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Re: monitor new [Re: italie]
#283904 - 04/26/12 02:22 PM


attempt of sarcasm.. shut up
either of my advise will work wrap the wire and shield the speakers as test and reseat the high voltage cable, it is not that dangerous. i have a cab with 2 jacobs ladders and shit 2x 12000 volts bzzzz



edcosta
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Re: monitor new [Re: Garreth]
#283907 - 04/26/12 03:16 PM


OK, I am going to do you suggests... thanks by help.



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Re: monitor new [Re: edcosta]
#283927 - 04/26/12 07:47 PM


> OK, I am going to do you suggests... thanks by help.

Don't...seriously. His advice has the potential to get you hurt and or break your equipment.



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Re: monitor new [Re: Garreth]
#283928 - 04/26/12 07:52 PM


> attempt of sarcasm.. shut up
> either of my advise will work wrap the wire and shield the speakers as test and
> reseat the high voltage cable, it is not that dangerous. i have a cab with 2 jacobs
> ladders and shit 2x 12000 volts bzzzz

Nothing he describe would suggest an issue with the HV being "seated" wrong...nor could that possibly cause this issue.

Shoving tin foil in random locations is just asking for trouble...and really has more potential to make things worse.



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Re: monitor new [Re: edcosta]
#283934 - 04/26/12 09:47 PM


> OK, I am going to do you suggests... thanks by help.

Please don't if you want to live. If the HV connector wasn't seated properly, either the screen would not light up at all, or you'd get visible arcing, a loud snapping/sizzling/hissing, and an ozone smell.

Either your speakers are interfering with the monitor (remove them temporarily to see) or your CRT has a manufacturing defect. It's not the HV connector and it's definitely not the yoke.



Garreth
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Re: monitor new [Re: R. Belmont]
#283977 - 04/27/12 06:23 AM


I also think it is the magnetism,
but turning the high volt cable a few degrees could help, there is conductive coating all over the inside, the high volt cable is seated inside the tube with 2 metal wires by transport the wire trembles and coating could get damaged having one wire not touching the coating making the flow of electricity under certain frequency's flow not completely all over the conductive coating. hence the dead spot.
personaly i also think it is either the magnetic coil, or a wire running to close to the tube.
You will not damage your tube by turning the high voltage cable, i worked on tv's for 20 years, if there are image probs after transport, that is the first thing you do.



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Re: monitor new [Re: Garreth]
#284002 - 04/27/12 12:36 PM


> I also think it is the magnetism,
> but turning the high volt cable a few degrees could help, there is conductive coating
> all over the inside, the high volt cable is seated inside the tube with 2 metal wires
> by transport the wire trembles and coating could get damaged having one wire not
> touching the coating making the flow of electricity under certain frequency's flow
> not completely all over the conductive coating. hence the dead spot.
> personaly i also think it is either the magnetic coil, or a wire running to close to
> the tube.
> You will not damage your tube by turning the high voltage cable, i worked on tv's for
> 20 years, if there are image probs after transport, that is the first thing you do.


So you've fixed TV for twenty years with your wizard powers?

Everything you've describe is bush-league repair, and dangerous to the inexperienced person attempting them. If you are suspecting a weak point in current flow internally, all the more reason NOT to stick your hands on the HV.



edcosta
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Re: monitor new [Re: italie]
#284072 - 04/28/12 12:43 AM


I did what Garreth suggested and... nothing. I moved in the HV wire and I saw that the black stain modifies of size... but it does not disappear... (I am bad of english...)



B2K24
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Re: monitor new [Re: edcosta]
#284082 - 04/28/12 02:57 AM


I guess be grateful you lived and were able to tell us the result






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Re: monitor new [Re: edcosta]
#284102 - 04/28/12 05:26 AM


> I did what Garreth suggested and... nothing. I moved in the HV wire and I saw that
> the black stain modifies of size... but it does not disappear... (I am bad of
> english...)

I didn't expect his advice to amount to much, short of you getting shocked.

You likely have a tube defect. You need a new tube. No amount of tweaking is going to fix this.



RetroRepair
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Re: monitor new [Re: italie]
#284165 - 04/28/12 06:32 PM


It's almost like the guns are not tracing over that area. I'd say that means there could be a HV related issue since the HV is there to ground spent electrons and if the guns can't hit the phosphor there then there must be a "cloud" of electrons in the way. The shape would lend itself to that explaination anyway.

I'd say rather than the HV itself being at fault though, it's more likely that the tube never had proper aquadag application in that area.

If it goes away when a game loads though then I've no idea. A different resolution would not affect that. If you can see it all the time then your tube is done for. Either way the phosphor is not getting hit in that area.

Maybe a video would help diagnose it further? I'm very interested in what this could be.

Edited by RetroRepair (04/28/12 06:50 PM)



http://www.youtube.com/retrorepair



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Re: monitor new [Re: RetroRepair]
#284179 - 04/28/12 10:20 PM


> Maybe a video would help diagnose it further? I'm very interested in what this could
> be.

The only other thing I can think of is ~possibly~ a blanking/sync circuit issue. If the black spot is oriented in the top left of monitor, a weak component might be keeping the beam blanked a little too long. Maybe a slow cap hasn't had enough time to charge after the long retrace from bottom to top? This would allow the potential to behave differently at a lower res when the game starts...

Tough to say without a schematic to reference, or even a model number. Even tougher to buy that explanation since he said it was new.

I'm still banking on tube/phosphor defect.



RetroRepair
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Re: monitor new [Re: italie]
#284258 - 04/29/12 06:07 AM


I know what you mean but I can't see blanking "sort of" working. It'd work or not.

I'd replace the tube as you suggest.

I'd still like to see a video though.



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Re: monitor new [Re: RetroRepair]
#284269 - 04/29/12 07:14 AM


> I know what you mean but I can't see blanking "sort of" working. It'd work or not.

Depending on the circuit layout, a slow cap/leaky transistor combo can cause issues where blanking can start to get wonky and create dark spots. Could also be a protective blank if the B+ is on the fence for some reason, but you'd still probably need a leaky/weak transistor/cap combo to make that happen, and I can't picture it being as stationary of a dark spot as this was described.


> I'd replace the tube as you suggest.

Or ship it back if he just bought the thing...


> I'd still like to see a video though.

I would too.



Garreth
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Re: monitor new [Re: italie]
#284427 - 04/30/12 01:56 PM


Did i say twist it with your bare hands when it is plugged in?
And it changed in size, sometimes this fixes it, i am just trying to help, dont be a baby about it.

You sure it was not a 220/240 volts screen, modified with a 110/120V plug? try pulling the high voltage plug out and sticking it back in so the pins are sitting horizontaly compared to the screen, !!! watch out even unplugged it can still discharge 10 000 volts.
When unplugged take a hairdryer and blow it in the hole and heat up the tube so any moist can escape trough the hole.
And if you can just exchange it

it could be just moist since the technology is old, the screen may have been sitting on a shelf for years heat and cold could have drawn in moisture over time, an electric charge could make it all sit in one spot.
When working on high voltage make sure you wear leather gloves or rubber with some other type of wintergloves over. and put on some shoes, and never touch the metal or the tube itself.

Edited by Garreth (04/30/12 03:36 PM)



RetroRepair
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Re: monitor new [Re: Garreth]
#284451 - 04/30/12 06:44 PM


> Did i say twist it with your bare hands when it is plugged in?
> And it changed in size, sometimes this fixes it, i am just trying to help, dont be a
> baby about it.

At voltages that can stop your heart, no one is being a baby.

> You sure it was not a 220/240 volts screen, modified with a 110/120V plug? try
> pulling the high voltage plug out and sticking it back in so the pins are sitting
> horizontaly compared to the screen, !!! watch out even unplugged it can still
> discharge 10 000 volts.

What do you plan to achieve with this?? And try 20,000 volts.

Most tubes made after 1990 do tend to self discharge but you should ALWAYS manually discharge the CRT JUST IN CASE (with it turned off) by using a rubber handled screwdriver attached to a croc clip cable, attached to the metal braid on the outside of the tube (ground). If you then touch the second anode (the bit under the cap) with the screwdriver you will discharge any residual power. Just make sure you keep one hand in your pocket so you are not touching ground/the metal frame by accident. You might need to do this a couple of times if you hear a "snap".

> When unplugged take a hairdryer and blow it in the hole and heat up the tube so any
> moist can escape trough the hole.

That hole does NOT enter the tube itself. The tube is completely sealed, it's just thin enough that the voltage can conduct to the inside of the tube at that point.

Regardless, italie is right, if it's new he should get his money back.

Edited by RetroRepair (04/30/12 08:00 PM)



http://www.youtube.com/retrorepair



Garreth
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Re: monitor new [Re: RetroRepair]
#284562 - 05/01/12 11:56 AM


It could stop your heart if you are old, then again just just scaring an old man could have the same effect, the voltage itself is not damaging.
10 20 depends on the size.
then heat up the backside glass tube where the inner tube sits in, moist on the conductive coating can cause black spots.
And you where wrong about just using a rubber coated screwdriver, technicaly it needs a rating that states what voltages it can withstand preferably made of a type of plexiglass, since rubber can be damaged but still looks sealed. i just did not want to make it any more difficult for this guy since his english is not that good.
And my plan to achieve was to make the HV flow as smooth as possible
None of the other advise gave this guy anything to work with other then to exchange the entire thing wich i think he thought of himself.

Edited by Garreth (05/01/12 12:01 PM)



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Re: monitor new [Re: Garreth]
#284569 - 05/01/12 02:17 PM


> It could stop your heart if you are old, then again just just scaring an old man
> could have the same effect, the voltage itself is not damaging.

Bullshit, and I won't promote that kind of attitude toward monitor safety, ESPECIALLY with those who don't know better. You never even mentioned turning the darned thing off, discharging, or unplugging it. People don't just assume that.


> 10 20 depends on the size.

10-30KV...and a 19inch is most certainly in the 15-20KV range.

> then heat up the backside glass tube where the inner tube sits in, moist on the
> conductive coating can cause black spots.

What? And why are you heating the tube? If there is moisture inside you risk cracking/shattering.

> And you where wrong about just using a rubber coated screwdriver, technicaly it needs
> a rating that states what voltages it can withstand preferably made of a type of
> plexiglass, since rubber can be damaged but still looks sealed.

NOW you want to worry about safety?

> i just did not want
> to make it any more difficult for this guy since his english is not that good.
> And my plan to achieve was to make the HV flow as smooth as possible
> None of the other advise gave this guy anything to work with other then to exchange
> the entire thing wich i think he thought of himself.

If that is really the only viable option, and it was fairly obvious from the get go, I would not consider making him heat the tube and play with HV "making it easy" on him.



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Re: monitor new [Re: italie]
#284605 - 05/01/12 11:52 PM


The screwdriver doesn't need any rating. There is a wire that is connected to ground downstream of the handle. I'm sure if this is done enough times the arcs will erode part of the screwdriver each time this is done.

If you like playing with this kind of shit (high voltage), put a spark plug wire from your car against your belt buckle while standing in a puddle of water. Have a friend crank the engine. You might have roasted nuts



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Re: monitor new [Re: italie]
#284607 - 05/01/12 11:59 PM


> > It could stop your heart if you are old, then again just just scaring an old man
> > could have the same effect, the voltage itself is not damaging.
>
> Bullshit, and I won't promote that kind of attitude toward monitor safety, ESPECIALLY
> with those who don't know better. You never even mentioned turning the darned thing
> off, discharging, or unplugging it. People don't just assume that.
>

In fairness, and not to argue, I've always been told and prooved that the ampres are the killers, not the voltage.



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redk9258
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Re: monitor new [Re: Naoki]
#284609 - 05/02/12 12:06 AM


> In fairness, and not to argue, I've always been told and prooved that the ampres are
> the killers, not the voltage.

If you know anything about electricity VOLTAGE is what causes current (AMPERAGE) to flow. It depends on the resistance (or reactance). Do you know that value of the path between said high voltage, your heart and ground?

I=E\R

I=amps
E=voltage
R=resistance.



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Re: monitor new [Re: redk9258]
#284616 - 05/02/12 01:23 AM


> > In fairness, and not to argue, I've always been told and prooved that the ampres
> are
> > the killers, not the voltage.
>
> If you know anything about electricity VOLTAGE is what causes current (AMPERAGE) to
> flow. It depends on the resistance (or reactance). Do you know that value of the path
> between said high voltage, your heart and ground?
>
> I=E\R
>
> I=amps
> E=voltage
> R=resistance.

I never said I was a genius when it came to electricity, and I know there has to be some ovltage obviously, but really I was just stating what I had been told.



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Re: monitor new [Re: Naoki]
#284637 - 05/02/12 04:50 AM


> > > In fairness, and not to argue, I've always been told and prooved that the ampres
> > are
> > > the killers, not the voltage.
> >
> > If you know anything about electricity VOLTAGE is what causes current (AMPERAGE) to
> > flow. It depends on the resistance (or reactance). Do you know that value of the
> path
> > between said high voltage, your heart and ground?
> >
> > I=E\R
> >
> > I=amps
> > E=voltage
> > R=resistance.
>
> I never said I was a genius when it came to electricity, and I know there has to be
> some ovltage obviously, but really I was just stating what I had been told.

Also takes less than a tenth of an amp across the heart to be lethal. Resistance through the human body under varied conditions ranges from 1K to 100K Ohms. Some simple math with the equations red provided should enlighten you. Literally.



Garreth
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Re: monitor new [Re: italie]
#284676 - 05/02/12 02:30 PM


unplug screen from socket, unplug HIGH VOLTAGE cable, heat up tube with hairdryer, NOT paint stripper, blow hairdryer repeatedly into hole for dry air exchange, replace HIGH VOLTAGE cable with pins horizontal as opposed to screen, your screen is vertical, so place pins back vertical. just give the heat it's time to exchange air trough hole.
If you will excuse me i have some trolls to troll



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Re: monitor new [Re: Garreth]
#284712 - 05/02/12 11:11 PM


Do NOT touch high voltage wire without discharging it first! Unless you don't really like living and want to flirt with death.



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Re: monitor new [Re: edcosta]
#288807 - 06/06/12 12:30 PM


Hey!

I've seen this one!

I'm an arcade tech that has been working on CRT monitors for about twenty years now.

Your problem is a small capacitor. Usually 3.3 or 4.7 uf 50v.

Capacitors can fail, (do fail) fresh from the manufacturer.

Randy Fromm's monitor flowcharts say "Is the picture distorted or curved" --> "Electrolytic Capacitor failure, this is the most common failure of all. It is best to replace all the Electrolytic Capacitors at this time"

He is right. Replacing all the Electrolytic Capacitors will solve this problem.

Interestingly, the black 'blob' with edges that fade away from the 'spot' will look the same without a signal applied. Turn up the 'screen' knob on the flyback until the entire screen looks grey with retrace lines and the 'blob' will be dark black.

It's a capacitor.



edcosta
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Re: monitor new [Re: Topheron]
#288815 - 06/06/12 03:04 PM


> Hey!
>
> I've seen this one!
>
> I'm an arcade tech that has been working on CRT monitors for about twenty years now.
>
> Your problem is a small capacitor. Usually 3.3 or 4.7 uf 50v.
>
> Capacitors can fail, (do fail) fresh from the manufacturer.
>
> Randy Fromm's monitor flowcharts say "Is the picture distorted or curved" -->
> "Electrolytic Capacitor failure, this is the most common failure of all. It is best
> to replace all the Electrolytic Capacitors at this time"
>
> He is right. Replacing all the Electrolytic Capacitors will solve this problem.
>
> Interestingly, the black 'blob' with edges that fade away from the 'spot' will look
> the same without a signal applied. Turn up the 'screen' knob on the flyback until the
> entire screen looks grey with retrace lines and the 'blob' will be dark black.
>
> It's a capacitor.

nice! thanks by info.



edcosta
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Re: monitor - RESOLVED! new [Re: edcosta]
#290442 - 06/28/12 09:22 PM Attachment: Imagem0466.jpg 312 KB (0 downloads)


the problem was in yoke of 14ohms, which was not compatible with the monitor that requires a yoke of 36ohms or more... thanks to all by help.
(my english is bad...).

[ATTACHED IMAGE - CLICK FOR FULL SIZE]

Attachment



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one question... new [Re: edcosta]
#290495 - 06/29/12 05:06 AM


It came NEW with the bad yoke? Otherwise you could have included the fact that you bought a new tube and put an old yoke on it...



edcosta
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Re: one question... new [Re: italie]
#290525 - 06/29/12 04:27 PM


> It came NEW with the bad yoke? Otherwise you could have included the fact that you
> bought a new tube and put an old yoke on it...

only the monitor (chassi board) is new. I forgot me to tell that detail...



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Re: one question... new [Re: edcosta]
#290544 - 06/29/12 10:33 PM



Quote:


only the monitor (chassi board) is new. I forgot me to tell that detail...






"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in frustration and were suddenly silenced..."



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Well, at the very least it gives me a chance to use this.... new [Re: aavada]
#290559 - 06/30/12 04:15 AM Attachment: biqh8.gif 208 KB (0 downloads)


> only the monitor (chassi board) is new. I forgot me to tell that detail...
>
>
> "I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out
> in frustration and were suddenly silenced..."

[ATTACHED IMAGE]

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