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Stefano Teso
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Reged: 03/23/12
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valkyrie source is now in the wild
#288518 - 06/02/12 01:35 PM


Hello all,

finally keeping my promise of releasing valkyrie, I've published the full source on github:

https://github.com/stefanoteso/valkyrie/

Feel free to grab a copy and mess with it :-)

A couple of very important points:

- There is a ton of documentation in the source. Pretty much every little detail I have found is annotated right there. The only exception are of course the manually annotated disassemblies, that AFAIK I'm restricted to keep for myself.

- I have made some serious updates to the GPU emulation and renderer since the last update; this means that the two RAM areas previously known as UNKRAM, are now finally assigned their real (hopefully) name: texture RAM. And the old Texture RAM area is now known as the frame buffer area. As a consequence, the boot menu texture now needs to be decoded properly, which is not implemented yet. The end result is that the menu text is currently unreadable.

- The aforementioned update also documents A LOT of previously unknown or under-documented GPU instructions. The renderer has not been updated to draw meshes properly according to the new findings, due to extreme lack of time on my part.

- Due again to lack of time, I have not fixed everything I could before the release. This means that some portions of the code are in a rather poor state, especially the ROM loading code. Feel free to blame me and fix the thing yourself. ;-)

Make sure to read the README, INSTALL, CONTRIBUTING, and TODO files for more details. If you want to contribute, feel welcomed. I won't have much time to spend on valkyrie until deep summer, and probably not even then; but I'll happily answer requests for clarification or guidance, and merge requests.

Also please, please, plese let me know if you find any embarrassing bug or traces of foul language in the source ;-)

Have fun!



CTOJAH
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Reged: 07/13/10
Posts: 887
Loc: Macedonia,Veles
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: Stefano Teso]
#288525 - 06/02/12 03:46 PM


I understand that in this phase emulator is heading towards developers/programmers and not to basic users.(gamers)
I have only one question at the moment :
- What's the catch with Linux ? AFAIK only ~ 3% of the world use this OS ?!



Charles MacDonald
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Reged: 01/06/08
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: CTOJAH]
#288526 - 06/02/12 03:58 PM


Hey now, the source is available so you can port it to any OS you want!



Stefano Teso
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Posts: 6
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: CTOJAH]
#288527 - 06/02/12 04:17 PM


> I understand that in this phase emulator is heading towards developers/programmers
> and not to basic users.(gamers)
> I have only one question at the moment :
> - What's the catch with Linux ? AFAIK only ~ 3% of the world use this OS ?!

That 3% of the world includes me. :-)

The emulator is simple enough that it would take a windows developer probably less than a day to port. I'm no windows developer though.

shameless plug: GNU/linux is much much more user friendly than it used to be; consider giving Ubuntu or Fedora a try if you never have done so -- just burn a live CD ;-)



CTOJAH
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Reged: 07/13/10
Posts: 887
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: Stefano Teso]
#288529 - 06/02/12 04:46 PM


Since I left WorkBench and my beloved Amiga 1200, (around '95~'96) I am constantly in marriage with Windows (7 64bit at the moment) so I'll stick to M$... ...maybe I am getting old, You know
Don't get me wrong - I highly appreciate Your work and I am always excited when I see a new emulator pops up.(especially for non-emulated system as this one)



Vas Crabb
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Reged: 12/13/05
Posts: 3725
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: Stefano Teso]
#288533 - 06/02/12 05:22 PM


> shameless plug: GNU/linux is much much more user friendly than it used to be;
> consider giving Ubuntu or Fedora a try if you never have done so -- just burn a live
> CD ;-)

I have Fedora at work, and every week a kernel update requires me to recompile my video drivers to get acceleration back. That's not very user-friendly. How have Linux developers managed to go so long without realising that users would actually benefit from a stable kernel ABI?



Stefano Teso
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#288535 - 06/02/12 05:40 PM


> I have Fedora at work, and every week a kernel update requires me to recompile my
> video drivers to get acceleration back. That's not very user-friendly. How have Linux
> developers managed to go so long without realising that users would actually benefit
> from a stable kernel ABI?

Off-topic:

Are you using the closed source drivers? If that's the case, its likely an issue with how Fedora handles them.

The DRM API/ABI is supposed to be strongly backward compatible. Linus rudely pushes back all patches that violate this assumption. ;-)

So at least when using the open source stack (that is, open source X driver and open source mesa driver) everything should work fine across updates, modulo bugs. I have been using Debian like that for the past few years, and never had to recompile the kernel to keep X or GL working.

Besides, why updating a working kernel? :-)



Spelunker
In need of a new user name
Reged: 06/02/12
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: Stefano Teso]
#288542 - 06/02/12 09:05 PM


Huge thanks for this, built fine on Arch Linux 64bit with two caveats, changed the CC and LD from 'gcc-4.7' to 'gcc' (likely a better default?) and also add -lGL to the LDFLAGS for it to build.

Skimming through the source everything looks very nice and tidy, I wish my spare-time code looked like this



drewcifer
One bad Mutha-(shut yo' mouth!)
Reged: 07/01/04
Posts: 427
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: Spelunker]
#288543 - 06/02/12 09:36 PM


> Skimming through the source everything looks very nice and tidy, I wish my spare-time
> code looked like this

I totally agree. Everything is very clean. Thanks for making it available!

Andrew



Solstar
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Reged: 08/29/08
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: Stefano Teso]
#288545 - 06/02/12 11:00 PM


after years of windows(and like some other here,amiga workbench)i have used various ubuntu rel,and in all of them,i'm stil lstruggling to dso simple tasks,like PLAYING A DAMN MP3,which won't let you do that,because of licenses,codecs and more stuff.oh and don'0t let me start about isntalling programs..good luck with that.and i thought (back in the 90's )that dos commands were complicated..i gladlywent back to win.i wqill wait for a win version of such emu



Spelunker
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: Solstar]
#288546 - 06/02/12 11:16 PM



Quote:


PLAYING A DAMN MP3,which won't let you do that,because of licenses,codecs and more stuff




That's the specially crafted iq-barrier which has been implemented in Linux, if you can't figure out how to install a codec-pack (which is about as hard as on Windows) then you are not supposed to be using Linux. You are better off with Windows.



Cable
retro gamer
Reged: 08/30/08
Posts: 131
Loc: UK
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: Stefano Teso]
#288549 - 06/03/12 12:29 AM


Excellent News! Good luck in making this emulator, be able to let us play these games, one day



SmitdoggAdministrator
Reged: 09/18/03
Posts: 15680
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: Spelunker]
#288566 - 06/03/12 05:52 AM


Very hard to fathom how you could choose this user name. You have 24 hours to change it and if you end up being or even faintly resembling abracadabra then you will be banned for the 100th time.



Spelunker
In need of a new user name
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: Smitdogg]
#288571 - 06/03/12 07:28 AM



Quote:


Very hard to fathom how you could choose this user name.




Ehh, it's the first arcade game I ever played (well that or battle of atlantis) ? Am I missing something, is there a name copyright issue going on here?



SmitdoggAdministrator
Reged: 09/18/03
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: Spelunker]
#288572 - 06/03/12 07:40 AM


You can see in the description of the majority of the boards here the Mr. Do is a mod. I can't understand how you could have missed that if you have read the boards before and I doubt you just stumbled onto them today. If you didn't know, it's not ok to take someone's user name and change something tiny and use it, like if someone signed up with "Smitdog" that would not last long. I also got a message from someone saying you are a known troll, a particularly annoying one, and signing up on other places with known regulars' names with tiny things changed, but I don't have any proof so I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt for now. Either way, you can't use that user name, so you need to change it.



Spelunker
In need of a new user name
Reged: 06/02/12
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: Smitdogg]
#288574 - 06/03/12 08:19 AM


I visit this site mainly to see emulation news, when I feel like talking of emulation I use bannister.org and their emulator subforums.

This emulator doesn't have a forum there and I wanted to send my thanks to the author of Valkyrie for his hard work and releasing it as open source.

So no, I had no idea that MrDo was taken, I figured the board registration would have told me so. I assume I can simply change the name in my profile settings and will do so if that is the case.



Quantum Leaper
OCRer and Monkey Typist for Galaxy Game
Reged: 03/08/04
Posts: 198
Loc: Orion spiral arm of the Milky Way
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#288575 - 06/03/12 08:55 AM


> > shameless plug: GNU/linux is much much more user friendly than it used to be;
> > consider giving Ubuntu or Fedora a try if you never have done so -- just burn a
> live
> > CD ;-)
>
> I have Fedora at work, and every week a kernel update requires me to recompile my
> video drivers to get acceleration back. That's not very user-friendly. How have Linux
> developers managed to go so long without realising that users would actually benefit
> from a stable kernel ABI?

I know the feeling when I was running Ubuntu on one of my computers, it didn't support acceleration either, GeForce 8800GT, so I installed the drivers, the max resolution was 320x200, felt like my old C64 but with millions of colors. Sound wasn't much better, I did get it to work, after I told Ubuntu to stop trying to output to digital and use analog outputs. My speakers are old but they are very good.

I still think Linux (no matter the flavor) is still user unfriendly. Just try getting help on the internet, the response tends to be RTFM, even though you state that you did and still need help. Ubuntu forums tend to be better though.



Anonymous
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: Spelunker]
#288581 - 06/03/12 10:32 AM


> That's the specially crafted iq-barrier which has been implemented in Linux, if you
> can't figure out how to install a codec-pack (which is about as hard as on Windows)
> then you are not supposed to be using Linux.

You don't think people with a high iq are more likely to just install Windows and go do something more productive with their time? Linux on the desktop has a personality-barrier which I'm happy to be on the Microsoft side of.



Vas Crabb
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Reged: 12/13/05
Posts: 3725
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: Quantum Leaper]
#288583 - 06/03/12 11:01 AM


> I still think Linux (no matter the flavor) is still user unfriendly. Just try getting
> help on the internet, the response tends to be RTFM, even though you state that you
> did and still need help. Ubuntu forums tend to be better though.

Best linux forum ever was gaybuntu – never copped any of the usual attitude there. I guess most of the obnoxious Linux users aren't confident enough in their sexuality to frequent a forum with "gay" in the name. I wonder why it didn't last…



Vas Crabb
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: ]
#288584 - 06/03/12 11:05 AM


> > That's the specially crafted iq-barrier which has been implemented in Linux, if you
> > can't figure out how to install a codec-pack (which is about as hard as on Windows)
> > then you are not supposed to be using Linux.
>
> You don't think people with a high iq are more likely to just install Windows and go
> do something more productive with their time? Linux on the desktop has a
> personality-barrier which I'm happy to be on the Microsoft side of.

Windows is just as bad. Someone needs to be shot for the brain-dead approach to 64-bit support with the stupid reflected filesystem and registry views. The registry is fucked up concept in general, and the cause of countless headaches with stupid crap left around in it for no good reason. If you think you're somehow smarter for preferring Windows, you're no better than the Linux fanboys.



Stefano Teso
MAME Fan
Reged: 03/23/12
Posts: 6
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: Spelunker]
#288586 - 06/03/12 11:29 AM


> Huge thanks for this, built fine on Arch Linux 64bit with two caveats, changed the CC
> and LD from 'gcc-4.7' to 'gcc' (likely a better default?) and also add -lGL to the
> LDFLAGS for it to build.

Good point, I'll change the Makefile ASAP.

> Skimming through the source everything looks very nice and tidy, I wish my spare-time
> code looked like this

Happy to hear that :-)



Spelunker
In need of a new user name
Reged: 06/02/12
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#288588 - 06/03/12 11:40 AM


I agree that my response was crass, and I won't say Solstar is stupid for wanting to run Windows, in fact I'd say he is a much better judge than I am at what OS _he_ wants to run.

My gripe was with the bullshit that 'OMG, it's impossible to play even an mp3!!' No, codecs which cost money to licence are not distributed by default in Linux/BSD etc since the operating systems are distributed for free. How can they carry that licencing cost?

When you get mp3 etc codec support out-of-the-box with Windows it's because the cost of licencing that has been baked into the price you pay for it.

Still, as anyone who has ever used Windows knows, you generally don't get very far on the codecs it's shipped with and eventually you will download and install other codecs OR download a program which contains them, like VLC.

Guess what, same thing goes for Linux in every distribution I've ever used. I download VLC, mplayer, and the codecs they support are downloaded and installed aswell, automagically! Just as simple as when a Windows user downloads and doubleclicks on CCCP-codec pack (or whatever is the rage these days).

So no, I'm not here to try and convince anyone to use Linux or any other operating system, again you will choose what's best for you. I just take offense at people spreading bs.



Olivier Galibert
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#288599 - 06/03/12 04:13 PM


> How have Linux
> developers managed to go so long without realising that users would actually benefit
> from a stable kernel ABI?

They wouldn't, which is why. Now, video support on linux is catastrophic for a number of reasons, some good, a large number bad. It's not really the fault of the kernel, or maybe it is in the sense that most of it should be in there and isn't.

OG.



Vas Crabb
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Loc: Melbourne, Australia
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: Olivier Galibert]
#288600 - 06/03/12 04:36 PM


> > How have Linux
> > developers managed to go so long without realising that users would actually benefit
> > from a stable kernel ABI?
>
> They wouldn't, which is why. Now, video support on linux is catastrophic for a number
> of reasons, some good, a large number bad. It's not really the fault of the kernel,
> or maybe it is in the sense that most of it should be in there and isn't.
>
> OG.

Stable kernel ABIs benefit everyone. Suppose I sell an expensive piece of specialised hardware, and provide drivers for it, and then go bankrupt because I can't make a living selling to such a small niche. If the kernel ABI is stable, your drivers continue to work across kernel upgrades. If not, you or someone else will have to hack them up and rebuild them. Putting the drivers into the main kernel tree isn't the solution for two reasons: firstly it's a specialised piece of gear, and I didn't sell a huge number of them, so it's pointless distributing the driver to everyone; secondly, none of the kernel developers will actually have the hardware, so they'll have no hope of maintaining it anyway. Solaris has managed to provide stable kernel ABIs for ages - why is it too hard for the Linux dudes, and apparently Apple, too?



HowardC
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#288609 - 06/03/12 08:10 PM


> > > How have Linux
> > > developers managed to go so long without realising that users would actually
> benefit
> > > from a stable kernel ABI?
> >
> > They wouldn't, which is why. Now, video support on linux is catastrophic for a
> number
> > of reasons, some good, a large number bad. It's not really the fault of the kernel,
> > or maybe it is in the sense that most of it should be in there and isn't.
> >
> > OG.
>
> Stable kernel ABIs benefit everyone. Suppose I sell an expensive piece of specialised
> hardware, and provide drivers for it, and then go bankrupt because I can't make a
> living selling to such a small niche. If the kernel ABI is stable, your drivers
> continue to work across kernel upgrades. If not, you or someone else will have to
> hack them up and rebuild them. Putting the drivers into the main kernel tree isn't
> the solution for two reasons: firstly it's a specialised piece of gear, and I didn't
> sell a huge number of them, so it's pointless distributing the driver to everyone;
> secondly, none of the kernel developers will actually have the hardware, so they'll
> have no hope of maintaining it anyway. Solaris has managed to provide stable kernel
> ABIs for ages - why is it too hard for the Linux dudes, and apparently Apple, too?

Because there isn't any money in it for the linux/apple guys. Believe it or not most hardware companies aren't going to waste time making drivers for OSes with such low adoption rates. Heck most of your linux drivers are written by linux fans and NOT by the O.M. Also linux is the OS equivelent of mame.... those guys are hobbyists... they don't care if it breaks your setup.

From both a user's and programmer's perspective here is the difference between linux and windows:

Windows is designed to easily add anything to the OS... drivers, software, ect. Now it might not do the best job, bu tthe average user can easily install drivers and software on windows just by following a wizard. Updates to the core of the OS generally do not effect drivers and software installed on a windows user's system. THIS is what makes it user friendly.

Linux has made great strides over the years to make things user friendly but it isn't modular enough at the core and thus it will always fall short. Most of your "drivers" in Linux have to be complied into or for the kernel instead of simply installing them. Every time linux's kernel gets a significant update (which seems to be constantly) most of yoru drivers, particularly video and sound drivers have to be re-compiled. This would be the windows equivelent of having to re install all of your drivers every time microsoft sends out a security update. As in it isn't particularly hard, but your computer is out of action for an hour or two.


Linux can be very stable though (at this point I question if it's more stable than windows 7 though... that thing is pretty damn stable). Linux's open srouce nature also allows it to be adapted to ANYTHING. So linux is very well suited for embedded devices, servers, tablets, ect... Just don't expect to be updating it a lot.

Simply put, linux isn't suited for the end user. Users want to install their own software, they want to keep things updated for safety and they want to play around. Linux just can't handle the abuse the average user puts an OS through the way windows does, particularly recent revisions of windows.



Solstar
MAME Fan
Reged: 08/29/08
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: Spelunker]
#288610 - 06/03/12 08:17 PM


quote "I still think Linux (no matter the flavor) is still user unfriendly."

nope,Spelunker..that above is the reason why.,..it doesnt have anything to do with iq barrier...i'm a caveman regarding coding and stuff but i perfectly know how to install codecs for multimedia players...which apaprently is not so easy on linux.unfortunately,you(you in general)Linux users think you're some kind of "elitists",gods or something along those lines,and all the other people who can't get into your own little,closed "world",is just "trash"



Spelunker
In need of a new user name
Reged: 06/02/12
Posts: 38
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#288637 - 06/04/12 01:38 AM



Quote:


Stable kernel ABIs benefit everyone. Suppose I sell an expensive piece of specialised hardware, and provide drivers for it, and then go bankrupt because I can't make a living selling to such a small niche. If the kernel ABI is stable, your drivers If not, you or someone else will have to hack them up and rebuild them.




First off, in reality there is no such thing as a stable kernel ABI in any mainstream operating system out there.

When XP64 was released and people upgraded (I was one of them) there was a great shortage of 64-bit drivers for existing hardware devices, making lots of them unuseable for XP64. When Vista was released with a new driver system lots of hardware which was fully functioning under XP was suddenly unuseable under Vista, because the hardware companies have no incentive to support legacy hardware, they want to sell you new hardware.

So in your example, your hardware wouldn't have survived either the transition from XP to XP64, or XP to Vista. And not to Windows 7 either which by default requires drivers to be signed.

Had you instead open sourced your driver it could have been ported to all the above, and had you submitted it for inclusion to the Linux kernel it would have been maintained by the kernel devs and kept functioning across any kernel abi/api changes.



Spelunker
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: HowardC]
#288638 - 06/04/12 02:12 AM



Quote:


Every time linux's kernel gets a significant update (which seems to be constantly) most of yoru drivers, particularly video and sound drivers have to be re-compiled.




Only if they are kept outside of the Linux kernel, which today would basically be NVidia's proprietary driver. And even if the Linux kernel is updated every 2 or 3 months you don't have to update to it. In fact, unless you are running a bleeding edge distro like I am (Arch Linux) and instead use Ubuntu, Mint, etc et al then this is no problem.

For me personally, Linux drivers work wonderfully, whenever I boot Linux on my machines it automatically sets correct native resolution, loads drivers for my network cards, wacom bamboo, even my NVidia 9800GT is supported out of the box through the excellent Nouveu open source drivers should I not run the proprietary NVidia drivers. It just works, out of the box.

Back when I was on Windows the first thing I had to do after installing was to manually download and install official NVidia/ATI/Wacom etc drivers for my machines in order to have my hardware fully functioning.

As for Linux not having a stable kernel interface, this is a conscious choice brought on by many reasons, not only does it give the developers much more flexibility but also the simple fact that from a developer standpoint proprietary drivers are simply inconvenient.

Particularly given that Linux aims to support tons of hardware 'out-of-the-box' across a wide range of cpu architectures for which it's simply incredibly naive to rely on the good will of companies to provide binary drivers. Not to mention locating fixing bugs, with open source drivers any developer with the appropriate knowledge can fix it, and they do.

So the Linux developers make it hard work to keep a proprietary driver as you will have to do the work of updating it against the changing kernel interface. However, on the flip side, if you release your driver as open source to be included in the kernel then the kernel devs will take care of the kernel interface maintenance for you, aswell as fix bugs, add features, and if possible tune the performance. And most importantly, your hardware will then run on all Linux supported targets out of the box.

This has led to a vast number of hardware companies biting the bullet and provide open source drivers (or the specs necessary to implement them), or even hire full time programmers to work continously on implementing and perfecting Linux in-tree drivers, like Intel for their Sandy/Ivy bridge architectures. They do this because while Linux certainly is small fry on the desktop (no argument there), it's huge in everything from servers, embedded, mobile, even totally dominating in super computers.

Even Microsoft(!) recently submitted open source driver code for Linux so that it would support their Hyper-V virtualization solution. Obviously they didn't do this out of altruism, but because their Hyper-V customers wanted to run Linux efficiently under virtualization.

No other operating system or kernel supports near as much hardware out of the box as Linux does, and it also supports all this hardware across the largest amount of cpu architectures supported by any system.

No, I'm not saying it's perfect, and from a pure desktop user perspective I can definatley see why people in general prefer Windows or OSX. It also has problematic areas like laptops and hibernation where certain hardware causes problems.

But it's also not bad as many of you guys are trying to make it out to be, and distros like Ubuntu make it alot more accessable for beginners.



Orochi_Kyo
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Reged: 07/30/08
Posts: 13
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: Spelunker]
#288639 - 06/04/12 02:13 AM


Linux is not for everybody, less for people who doesnt know how to play a MP3, or people who believe they are smarter for using Windows. Even my mom use linux to use LibreOffice, navigate through internet, listen music and watch movies. When she need something to be installed, she calls me to do it. Theres nothing bad on that cause I know A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO CALLS ME TO INSTALL A SIMPLE ANTIVIRUS IN WINDOWS.Theres no cure for lazyness.



Matty_
Part-time troll
Reged: 01/25/08
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: Spelunker]
#288641 - 06/04/12 02:49 AM


> First off, in reality there is no such thing as a stable kernel ABI in any mainstream
> operating system out there.

Solaris and AIX manage to have very stable kernel ABIs.

> So in your example, your hardware wouldn't have survived either the transition from
> XP to XP64, or XP to Vista. And not to Windows 7 either which by default requires
> drivers to be signed.

Did you read the post you replied to? No claims were made about Windows. Strawman argument is strawman.

> Had you instead open sourced your driver it could have been ported to all the above,
> and had you submitted it for inclusion to the Linux kernel it would have been
> maintained by the kernel devs and kept functioning across any kernel abi/api changes.

Once again, read the fucking post you replied to: it's assumed the driver is open-source but that doesn't magically create maintainers for it; the Linux kernel tree is not the place for drivers for every niche product; the kernel devs may be able to keep a driver building across kernel releases but they have no way of testing it to ensure it's functional.

So in summary, you pull a strawman and then produce the arguments that the post your responded to already addressed. As long as Linux fans ignore the problems, they won't be solved.



Spelunker
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: Matty_]
#288652 - 06/04/12 04:40 AM



Quote:


Solaris and AIX manage to have very stable kernel ABIs.



Granted I failed to notice that he specifically mentioned Solaris/AIX and as such assumed the discussion was still that of Windows <-> Linux. But again, it's not that Linux devs can't 'manage' stable kernel ABI's, they don't want to. They don't want to support proprietary out of tree drivers at all, if someone else wants to maintain such drivers and keep them up to date then fine but that's on them. And judging by the vast amount of hardware Linux supports this is working just fine. Even companies like NVidia which refuse to open source their drivers maintains a proprietary driver for Linux.


Quote:


Once again, read the fucking post you replied to: it's assumed the driver is open-source but that doesn't magically create maintainers for it



Where is it 'assumed' that the driver is open source? Also the developers doesn't have to have the hardware in order to keep it compiling against the current kernel abi/api.

And if it was an open source driver then if a user really relied on the hardware (which could be the case as Vas Crabb stated it was some _expensive_ specialist hardware) he/she could hire someone to maintain it and make it work against new driver interfaces even on Windows when it's driver interface changes (and it will change again).


Quote:


As long as Linux fans ignore the problems, they won't be solved.



What problems? Drivers? Again Linux supports more hardware out-of-the box than any system, it supports more hardware than Solaris/AIX ever will, and despite it's stable kernel abi Solaris and other big iron *nix continue to fade into obscurity, even it's current owners Oracle are now pushing their 'Unbreakable Linux' solution and developing btrfs for Linux and IBM has invested more than a billion into Linux development.

Linux has no stable driver abi/api, yet it enjoys vastly more driver support than any other *nix which has more stable abi's like the BSD's and Solaris, but you still maintain that this is some big problem for Linux? Really?



Matty_
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: Spelunker]
#288654 - 06/04/12 04:45 AM


> Where is it 'assumed' that the driver is open source? Also the developers doesn't
> have to have the hardware in order to keep it compiling against the current kernel
> abi/api.

Keeping it compiling doesn't equate to keeping it working.

> And if it was an open source driver then if a user really relied on the hardware
> (which could be the case as Vas Crabb stated it was some _expensive_ specialist
> hardware) he/she could hire someone to maintain it and make it work against new
> driver interfaces even on Windows when it's driver interface changes (and it will
> change again).

Which is an expense the user wouldn't be liable for if Linux had stable kernel ABIs.



Spelunker
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: Matty_]
#288657 - 06/04/12 05:53 AM



Quote:


Keeping it compiling doesn't equate to keeping it working.



No but the kernel devs generally takes the obligation of not breaking the driver with their changes. Of course they do rely very much on bug reports for this purpose from people who actually uses the hardware.


Quote:


Which is an expense the user wouldn't be liable for if Linux had stable kernel ABIs.



Well, I guess they should use Solaris/AIX then, certainly not Windows, OSX, BSD's, etc which all have a history of breaking the driver interface with major revisions.

Of course it strikes me as a much better solution to have a driver submitted as open source and have the people responsible of the actual interfaces making sure it works with changes made to them, like having them in the kernel tree.

That said this thread has been sadly derailed from it's original subject, and I'm am likely more guilty of that than anyone so I won't carry this discussion further unless someone REALLY wants to



SmitdoggAdministrator
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: Spelunker]
#288659 - 06/04/12 06:35 AM Attachment: linux.jpg 122 KB (0 downloads)




[ATTACHED IMAGE]

Attachment



Solstar
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: Orochi_Kyo]
#288677 - 06/04/12 01:28 PM


> When she need
> something to be installed, she calls me to do it.
>

so i need to call someone every time i need to install something?this means that even you mum is lazy at this point right?

this is ,again,not being lazy,because i can work my way out of the windows registry for example,and it took its time out of...hmm."lazyness",just to name something.problem is that linux has one of the most complicated interface just do about anything that is much simpler in windows.its not lazyness..many people tried,and tried and tried...but there was something everytime that discouraged them.i don't think it was lazyness,trust me...out of 50 people,there could be a 30% of lazyass,i admit that..and the rest?what did kept the rest from learning that wonderful os you praise so much?hell i even managed to get Wine on ubuntu to run,just to see if it really could handle old games better than virtual machines like legends and local folklore says about it..after 5 mins that i realized how slow it was,i got gladly back to vmware



R. Belmont
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#288688 - 06/04/12 04:56 PM


> I have Fedora at work, and every week a kernel update requires me to recompile my
> video drivers to get acceleration back.

Add RPMFusion to your repos - you'll get Nvidia or ATI driver updates for free alongside each kernel update. It's even easier than video driver updates on Windows then.



R. Belmont
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: CTOJAH]
#288690 - 06/04/12 05:04 PM


> - What's the catch with Linux ?

FWIW, a significant amount of MAME/MESS development is done on Linux, FreeBSD, and Mac OS X these days. Hell, we just had a guy submit a Haiku port so he could write a MESS driver

Anyway, you get the source, and I think it's using SDL, so making it work on Windows should be pretty trivial given the official MAME toolchain.



mesk
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: Cable]
#288691 - 06/04/12 05:10 PM


Thank you Stefano I cant wait to give it a try.....as soon as someone kindly decides to port it to Windows



Vas Crabb
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: R. Belmont]
#288694 - 06/04/12 05:38 PM


> > I have Fedora at work, and every week a kernel update requires me to recompile my
> > video drivers to get acceleration back.
>
> Add RPMFusion to your repos - you'll get Nvidia or ATI driver updates for free
> alongside each kernel update. It's even easier than video driver updates on Windows
> then.

Heh, don't get me started on Windows video drivers - Windows Update recommended I install updated ATi drivers like a year ago, and it made my PC lock up under heavy CPU load. Had to use System Restore to back it out, and have been too scared to update video drivers since. I'm due for a brand new PC with Windows 7 x64 - here's hoping it has stable video drivers.



DoomSooth
Reged: 01/18/04
Posts: 12
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: R. Belmont]
#288695 - 06/04/12 05:39 PM


I can "port" a haiku for you.


MAME, MESS and others
We want news about those here
Please, no more Linux

This haiku ain't news
But I could not help myself
It had to be done




Olivier Galibert
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#288708 - 06/04/12 09:32 PM


> Putting the drivers into the main kernel tree isn't
> the solution for two reasons: firstly it's a specialised piece of gear, and I didn't
> sell a huge number of them, so it's pointless distributing the driver to everyone;
> secondly, none of the kernel developers will actually have the hardware, so they'll
> have no hope of maintaining it anyway.

Actually, experience shows they do a fair job maintaining even drivers for hardware they don't have.


> Solaris has managed to provide stable kernel
> ABIs for ages - why is it too hard for the Linux dudes, and apparently Apple, too?

Core hardware is still moving a lot. Multicore, more-or-less integrated memory managers with numa-ish interfaces, iommus, power management tend to have an impact on the drivers too (especially w.r.t locking and power states, but also memory management). So the driver code still changes because even the internals API changes. But the changes seem usually relatively simple to apply across the drivers.

And thankfully driver are a dying species. Outside of video with is still an extremely moving target hardware is converging towards standardized interfaces (microsoft requires it more and more, hardware manufacturers aren't especially fond of software, etc). More and more devices sit on usb and you can reach them from userspace with a stable interface, so gadgets aren't an issue anymore. So as a result people who want to play with OSes can spend way less time on devices and more to what they're really interested it.

OG.



Anonymous
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#288949 - 06/08/12 07:09 PM


> Windows is just as bad. Someone needs to be shot for the brain-dead approach to
> 64-bit support with the stupid reflected filesystem and registry views.

There are good reasons behind all the compromises, nobody said that Windows was perfect. I think Microsoft do a better job than they are given credit for.

Linux is fine for some things, but it's not the well supported desktop OS that your gran should install.



R. Belmont
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: ]
#288955 - 06/08/12 08:34 PM


> Linux is fine for some things, but it's not the well supported desktop OS that your
> gran should install.

I've seen enough "grans" attempting to run Windows in hilariously bad ways that I will never again believe there's any particular ease of use advantage to Windows. It's like MAMEUI: there are no inherent objective advantages, it's just what people are used to.



Vas Crabb
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: ]
#288986 - 06/09/12 03:47 AM


> There are good reasons behind all the compromises, nobody said that Windows was
> perfect. I think Microsoft do a better job than they are given credit for.

Tell me what the good reason behind the fucking abuse of #define in all the Windows headers to select between wide/narrow character versions of APIs. That causes so much trouble when trying to develop cross-platform software. The only good thing about the steaming pile of crap is that it keeps developers busy, and therefore generates employment. Oh wait, that's an instance of the broken window fallacy.



Anonymous
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#288988 - 06/09/12 03:59 AM


> Tell me what the good reason behind the fucking abuse of #define in all the Windows
> headers to select between wide/narrow character versions of APIs.

Win9x was ascii, WinNT was unicode with ascii backwards compatibility. When you consider the heritage of windows, it's pretty amazing they managed to have two completely seperate codebases that had any amount of compatibility at all.

> That causes so much trouble when trying to develop cross-platform software.

After twenty years of *nix experience from multiple vendors, I've had more headaches with *nix compatibility. There is more than just linux out there.



Anonymous
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: R. Belmont]
#288989 - 06/09/12 04:21 AM


> I've seen enough "grans" attempting to run Windows in hilariously bad ways that I
> will never again believe there's any particular ease of use advantage to Windows.
> It's like MAMEUI: there are no inherent objective advantages, it's just what people
> are used to.

That is an advantage though. In the same way that learning English is an advantage, even if you preferred your children to learn esperanto or klingon instead.

While every major printer manufacturer or ISP offers support for Windows but not Linux, then it's an easy choice to make.

I understand the alure, I used an Amiga as a main machine at home until 12 years ago & chose to run Windows NT4 at work when all the cool kids ran Win9x. I just don't have the time or energy to devote to religious computer wars anymore, the mainstream is good enough.



Vas Crabb
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: ]
#289001 - 06/09/12 09:36 AM


> > That causes so much trouble when trying to develop cross-platform software.
>
> After twenty years of *nix experience from multiple vendors, I've had more headaches
> with *nix compatibility. There is more than just linux out there.

Yeah, but I don't know of a single UNIX where you end up with a massive list of "badwords" that you can't use without being incredibly careful about #include order. I mean, you can't even safely call a method SendMessage.



AeroCityMayor
Entity formerly known as alien_mame
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: ]
#289006 - 06/09/12 05:05 PM



Quote:


smf said

I just don't have the time or energy to devote to religious computer wars anymore, the mainstream is good enough.









That's always been my approach!

Cheers,

Ralph.



Coherance of posts inversely proportional to Foster's consumption!!!




CrapBoardSoftware
My real name is banned dickhead
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: Smitdogg]
#289176 - 06/11/12 02:15 PM


Simply classic. I bet you did those pictures by yourself. Not?Nevermind, don't feel underestimated, but you don't have to understand any of the factions or their reasoning. Just let them flow & continue.

And thanks to Spelunker for raising valid points and actually following through with the discussion. For quite a bit of time i wondered why this board or the MAME scene seems so much Windows-infested. Maybe to some degree it's a link between relatively simple (arcade) games and a similar simple (limited) understanding and acceptance of hardware/software/technical hurdles, where even installing codecs seem to create a problem. (I take installing gstreamer plugins via CLI over messing with codec packs on Windows and the relevant registry parts any day)



mesk
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: CrapBoardSoftware]
#289178 - 06/11/12 03:42 PM


> Simply classic. I bet you did those pictures by yourself. Not?Nevermind, don't feel
> underestimated, but you don't have to understand any of the factions or their
> reasoning. Just let them flow & continue.
>
> And thanks to Spelunker for raising valid points and actually following through with
> the discussion. For quite a bit of time i wondered why this board or the MAME scene
> seems so much Windows-infested. Maybe to some degree it's a link between relatively
> simple (arcade) games and a similar simple (limited) understanding and acceptance of
> hardware/software/technical hurdles, where even installing codecs seem to create a
> problem. (I take installing gstreamer plugins via CLI over messing with codec packs
> on Windows and the relevant registry parts any day)

So all Windows users are simple minded? Because they prefer to follow a wizard to install software and then get on with their day?
Typical butthurt Linux fanboy BS.Do you guys have some sort of spider sense that alerts you if anyone online talks bad about your precious OS? Unbelievable bullshit.



Anonymous
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Re: valkyrie source is now in the wild new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#289186 - 06/11/12 05:43 PM


> Yeah, but I don't know of a single UNIX where you end up with a massive list of
> "badwords" that you can't use without being incredibly careful about #include order.
> I mean, you can't even safely call a method SendMessage.

I'd settle for *nix standardising on #include file names.

*nix has as many "badwords", maybe you just haven't tried writing a method called putchar.

Edited by smf (06/11/12 05:44 PM)


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