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Hannes
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Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz???
#288885 - 06/07/12 05:43 PM



Hello Folks...

I have an old Laptop that I dedicated to be my MAME-PC.
It is a Gericom Blockbuster II

Pentium 4 3,06 Ghz
ATI mobility radeon 9700
2GB RAM
laud like Fighter Jet

now I have bought another Laptop for a 100 bucks, here we have a:

Dell Latitude D820

Intel T2400 Centrino Duo 1,82Ghz
NVIDIA quadro nvs 100m
2GB DDR2 RAM
With Dockingstation


The dockingstation is very cool as I can take out the Notebook with a press on a button and its unwired. Further I can use the docking stations ON-Button and wire it to a button outside the cabinet.

The Pentium Laptop got a S-Video-Port on the back, the Centrino not but got one in the docking station which should work, just have to test it.

What are your thoughts



mesk
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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Hannes]
#289014 - 06/09/12 08:09 PM


Are you intent on using a laptop? Personally I would very much suggest against using a laptop for emulation or gaming.If I were in your shoes I would sell them both and try to get a desktop with at least a core 2 duo @ 3ghz or as close as you can get to 3ghz.



Hannes
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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: mesk]
#289015 - 06/09/12 08:55 PM




The point is, I am not a computer junky...my friend on the other hand is a real freak.

So if something is wrong with the system or I need further games, another frontend or updates, I take the laptop under the arm and bring it to him.

With the dockingstation it is very easy to remove the laptop and I can grab the On/Off-button and wire it to a button outside the cabinet.

I should have state that I only want to play M.A.M.E.-Games, no Xbox or Playstation or what ever consoles.

Mainly 70īs or 80īs games. The newest would be some lightgun-games like House of the Death but the rest would be real oldscool stuff.

Do I really need something stronger than the Intel Core Duo?
From what people say Ghz are not Ghz, a Dualcore with around 2Ghz is supposed to be faster than a Pentium 4 single core with 3Ghz....



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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Hannes]
#289016 - 06/09/12 10:20 PM


> Do I really need something stronger than the Intel Core Duo?
> From what people say Ghz are not Ghz, a Dualcore with around 2Ghz is supposed to be
> faster than a Pentium 4 single core with 3Ghz....

GHz are still GHz, but it's true that your 1.8GHz Core 2 Duo is faster than the 3 GHz Pentium 4, it does more work per clock cycle. It'll be fine for most games.
The majority of the games that you won't be able to play on the 1.8GHz Core 2 Duo don't run at a playable framerate on any existing CPU anyway.
It's gonna get hot though. Laptops aren't built to have the CPU work hard all the time and MAME will give it a good workout.

S



Hannes
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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Sune]
#289020 - 06/09/12 11:32 PM



Sounds good, but it is not a Core 2 Duo it is a Core Duo

Type CPU / Microprocessor
Market segment Mobile
Family Intel Core Duo
Model number ? T2400
Frequency ? 2x1833 MHz
Bus speed ? 667 MHz
Clock multiplier ? 11
Package 478-pin micro FC-PGA
1.38" x 1.38/3.5 cm x 3.5 cm
Socket Socket M
Introduction date Jan 5, 2006
Price at introduction $294


So if you understand right (I am not a native speaker) you tell me go with the Core Duo Laptop? With the dockingstation it would be a nice setup I think.

The Notebook itself got no S-Video-out but I get it via the dockingstation, I hope that wont harm the quality of the signal....



redk9258
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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Hannes]
#289021 - 06/10/12 12:03 AM


Do yourself a favor and get a desktop PC. The laptop is most likely going to overheat and slow down or shut off. The tower isn't much larger than a laptop, so you can still take it elsewhere for updates / maintenance.



Hannes
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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: redk9258]
#289022 - 06/10/12 12:25 AM


> Do yourself a favor and get a desktop PC. The laptop is most likely going to overheat
> and slow down or shut off. The tower isn't much larger than a laptop, so you can
> still take it elsewhere for updates / maintenance.


I was looking for Desktop-PCīs in the second hand shop but couldīnt find anything with a S-Video-out... but I got 3 old Laptops with it...

I have friends that play modern Warfare III or Battlefield III on their Notebooks without to overheat, why would the Dual-Core with that 20-30 years old games, I hope you dont get it wrong if I ask...



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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Hannes]
#289025 - 06/10/12 12:53 AM


> Sounds good, but it is not a Core 2 Duo it is a Core Duo

Doesn't make much of a difference in this case, it's still faster than the 3 GHz P4.

If you have to choose between the two definitely go for the Core Duo laptop.

S



Hannes
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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Sune]
#289027 - 06/10/12 01:12 AM


> >
>
> Doesn't make much of a difference in this case, it's still faster than the 3 GHz P4.
>
> If you have to choose between the two definitely go for the Core Duo laptop.
>
> S

Thats what I would like to die....also because ich the cool dockingstation

www.parts4nb.com/catalogue/product/dell-latitude-d830--docking-station

also, the notebook would consume a lot less energy... thats my thoughts



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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Hannes]
#289031 - 06/10/12 03:16 AM


> I have friends that play modern Warfare III or Battlefield III on their Notebooks
> without to overheat, why would the Dual-Core with that 20-30 years old games, I hope
> you dont get it wrong if I ask...

You are comparing apples to oranges.

Age is completely irrelevant. You have to consider that those 20-30 year old games are running under emulation.
Running in MAME, many games from the 80's have higher CPU requirements than most modern PC games. Your 1.8 GHz Core Duo will not be able to run SEGA's Turbo which is from 1981.

Accurate and faithful emulation at the level that MAME does it, is much, much harder on your CPU than MW/BF3.

S



Hannes
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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Sune]
#289032 - 06/10/12 03:34 AM



....i see...so, if I would consider to go with the apples and kick the oranges, what would be a good plan.
I would not by a PC but just the ideal components:

Motherboard (what processor / how much RAM in the best case?)

Grafic-card (which one with a S-Video would be the best choice and are they still available?)

SSD (how much for M.A.M.E. only, no console emulation, 64GB?)

Sound-card

Power supply


....something forgotten?



Sune
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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Hannes]
#289038 - 06/10/12 06:05 AM


> I would not by a PC but just the ideal components:
>
> Motherboard (what processor / how much RAM in the best case?)

4GB is fine for MAME on 64-bit Windows 7. Windows 7 likes RAM. As far as I know, MAME by itself won't take up much more than 512MB at worst, and that's when running one specific Konami game that I can't recall the name of (EDIT - the game is called Gaiapolis). Besides the game, MAME only loads the parts of itself into memory that are required for emulating the game you're running.

CPU and mobo, don't know, not into the latest tech until I can afford it.
Buy the fastest CPU you can afford. Don't waste a ton of money on an extra 3-400 MHz, once you're past 3GHz on a modern CPU the few games that you won't be able to play require a CPU that doesn't exist yet anyway.
AFAIK something like 5 or 6 more games from the 90's become playable if you overclock past 4GHz, you decide if it's worth it.

> Grafic-card (which one with a S-Video would be the best choice and are they still
> available?)

This is difficult, modern video cards only have digital outputs, S-video is analog. My old 9800GTX+ has S-video but you can get away with a cheaper card than that, a 9500 GT (or even 8600/8800 GT) will do fine if you can find one. Not sure when they stopped making video cards with analog TV-out, probably some time during the GTX 2xx series.

EDIT - from a quick image search, some GTX 260 models have analog TV output. That's a fine card and should be easier to find than the older ones I mentioned.

I don't know anything about ATI cards.

> SSD (how much for M.A.M.E. only, no console emulation, 64GB?)

You'll see close to 0 benefit from running MAME off of an SSD. 64GB is too small for anything.

The Crucial M4 drives seem nice, they get good reviews. If it's going to be your only drive I'd go for at least 512GB. Those things cost a lot of money though. Otherwise get a 128GB SSD just for Windows and keep MAME on a second, conventional drive.

> Sound-card

Not necessary, on-board sound is fine on modern motherboards. No idea what people buy nowadays. I like my X-Fi Titanium.

> Power supply

Anything that gets a good review here:
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/page/power

Google "power supply calculator" to get an idea of what kind of wattage you'll need. Do not skimp on the power supply, get a good quality 80+ certified one with a good bit of headroom (say an extra 200 watts) that way it'll last longer and run more efficiently.

S



Hannes
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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Sune]
#289077 - 06/10/12 06:21 PM




The grafic-cards you recommend are not difficult to find, but non of them got the S-Video-out how it looks, all of them got

DVI
HDMI
D-Sub (which seems to be VGA)

for example:

http://www.ebay.at/itm/Gainward-9500-GT-...=item1c27ec0e0b


This one could work, if TV-Out is just another name for the desired S-Video-out

http://www.ebay.at/itm/NVIDIA-9500GT-PCI...=item2ebf01f954


I think if I go with components I will look for the best for a MAME I can buy, since there are enough used parts around to choose from.

Would you say the 9800GTX+ is the best I could do for a MAME?

I saw that they are different, for example some got 512MB onboard RAM, others a GB or even more.
If you can five me an exact recommendation what the BEST choice would be I am going to find it...

Ohh, I just saw you edit...

yes, there are plenty of the GTX 260, would you say that is the best I could do?

All of them seems to have S-Video... great
but again, they seems to come from different producers like MSI, Gainward, Sparkle, EVGA, and so on and so on.

If there are so many available I would like to know which is the best suited one, hope you can enlight me.


The big advantage I see in an SSD is the fast boot, If I have to wait for a minute or more before I can play I will skip the gaming most of the time, I know myself



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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Hannes]
#289079 - 06/10/12 07:38 PM


> yes, there are plenty of the GTX 260, would you say that is the best I could do?

MAME can use your video card for pixel shader effects (HLSL) that emulate a CRT monitor. The 260 will do great if you're going to use these effects. Otherwise you can get away with using any old (but preferably DX9) video card.

> All of them seems to have S-Video... great
> but again, they seems to come from different producers like MSI, Gainward, Sparkle,
> EVGA, and so on and so on.
>
> If there are so many available I would like to know which is the best suited one,
> hope you can enlight me.

It doesn't matter that much. I know many people prefer EVGA.
Read reviews, find the one that has the quietest cooling solution.

512MB is fine, I don't know if the CRT pixel shader effects can use more memory than that, maybe at really high resolutions.

> The big advantage I see in an SSD is the fast boot, If I have to wait for a minute or
> more before I can play I will skip the gaming most of the time, I know myself

I haven't looked but I believe a complete MAME ROM collection takes up close to a TB or more now. Get a 128GB SSD for Windows only and keep MAME on a conventional drive. You'll save lots of money that way.

S



Hannes
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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Sune]
#289081 - 06/10/12 08:14 PM


OK, I go for the EVGA with most RAM I can find.
The pixel shadding is for sure cool for me, I am going to use s 70cm TV for the genuine effect, so any picture improving technic is welcome. I also will go with a 100Hz-Screen..together with the shadder it could look realen good.

Now I need recommendations for a CPU and the MoBo on which it sits, please...

I think the MoBo is less critical than the Grafic-Card...



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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Hannes]
#289084 - 06/10/12 09:01 PM


> OK, I go for the EVGA with most RAM I can find.
> The pixel shadding is for sure cool for me, I am going to use s 70cm TV for the
> genuine effect, so any picture improving technic is welcome. I also will go with a
> 100Hz-Screen..together with the shadder it could look realen good.

Sounds nice. I think with that TV you should be using component video instead of S-video, the picture quality is much much better. The video card should come with a small breakout cable that has the three component plugs and an S-video plug on it. Or you could just run it via HDMI or, if the TV doesn't have digital inputs, a DVI to VGA adapter. Experiment with what you have.

Another thing, analog TV-out is locked at 50 or 60Hz so I'm not sure if a 100Hz refresh rate on the TV will do any good. It would be better to use VGA or DVI/HDMI so that you can set the video card refresh rate to 100Hz as well. And then you can enable triple buffering in MAME to get smoother scrolling - some arcade games run at odd refresh rates so triple buffering really helps to smooth things out, but it only works well if the monitor refresh rate is above 60Hz.

> Now I need recommendations for a CPU and the MoBo on which it sits, please...
>
> I think the MoBo is less critical than the Grafic-Card...

It's important to use a motherboard that works in harmony with your other components and doesn't create any bottlenecks. Though it's not as important if it's only going to run MAME. You don't need Firewire, bluetooth, TPM module, SLI support, WiFi, dual LAN, 12 SATA ports, 6 PCI/PCI-E slots, 4 memory slots etc etc. Get something simple (maybe micro-ATX) with Intel chipset, that can run the CPU (a fast Core i7) and 2x2GB DDR3 at their max rated FSB. Don't spend money on super expensive low latency RAM, it's not important for MAME. And the mobo and CPU don't have to be Ivy or even Sandy Bridge, stay one or two generations behind and save some money.. which you can then donate to the dumping project

Good luck, I hope someone can recommend a nice motherboard for you. Let us know how it goes.

S



Hannes
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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Sune]
#289091 - 06/10/12 10:15 PM



The 100Hz TV's are designed for 50/60Hz input.
I cannot find CRT-TV's with something else then the usual coaxial antenna plug or S-Video.
There might be some models with component-in but they are very rare.

Anyways, I saw a posting about that topic. That guy have checked all possible connections.
His conclusion was that the best solution is S-Video and if a laptop is used the laptop-screen is to turn off.

That guy said that even component is inferior to S-Video....

If I can increase the refresh rate if HDMI,DVI or even VGA than S-Video should be able to as it is newer than VGA, right?



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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Hannes]
#289093 - 06/10/12 10:48 PM


> The 100Hz TV's are designed for 50/60Hz input.
> I cannot find CRT-TV's with something else then the usual coaxial antenna plug or
> S-Video.
> There might be some models with component-in but they are very rare.

I assumed it was an LCD TV.
My Samsung CRT TV has component inputs but it's SD only, it'll go up to 576i in PAL mode.

> That guy said that even component is inferior to S-Video....

You must be confusing component with composite. They're not the same thing.

This is not a matter of opinion - it's not technically possible for S-video to provide better image quality than component video.
If it does, then the equipment is defective.

> If I can increase the refresh rate if HDMI,DVI or even VGA than S-Video should be
> able to as it is newer than VGA, right?

Actually S-video is about a decade older than VGA. but again, age has nothing to do with it :-) it has to do with signal standards. Analog TV-out is always fixed at 50 (PAL) or 60Hz (NTSC). When you use VGA or DVI, you could say that the TV is no longer a TV, it then becomes a PC monitor.

S



Hannes
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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Sune]
#289097 - 06/10/12 11:39 PM




Yes yes, I know the that composite is not component

I was digging an found the article about the MAME-Monitors again, here you have it, its from the September 13, 2009 and can be found at:

www.forum.arcadecontrols.com


I can't tell you how important it is for you to read the PC2JAMMA section about monitors and TV displays related to MAME. There are a ton of different formats of arcade monitors (historically speaking if you are looking to upgrade an old already existing arcade game) and you can pick some very different types of displays. I would recommend trying to get a 25-27" display for the best overall play on all of the various vertical, horizontal, and newer NeoGeo style fighter games. Galaga (vertical) looks fine on a 27", even though you are not using a lot of the side area, while horizontal games also look fine (size and aspect ratio-wise).

Computer monitors offer the highest resolutions, crispest colors, widest PC support with various video cards, and are also, unfortunately, the most expensive, and generally you have to settle for a smaller size. They also tend to exaggerate the "jaggies" in the older lower resolution games under MAME. Basically, the same thing that delivers high resolution and clarity on a computer monitor, kills the whole "feel" and look of an older arcade game. There are ways to get MAME to insert "scan-lines" to emulate some of the nostalgia, but you just can't get the same look out of a computer monitor, IMHO.

Arcade monitors come in vastly different flavors. Most of the new styles are simply RGB 19, 25 and 27" TV picture tubes, and will run you from $250-$600 for even a fairly low-medium resolution monitor. Also, from the PC2JAMMA, it looks like there are only a couple video cards (namely the ATI) that support native register level programming of the chipset by MAME for all of the lower frequencies needed by arcade monitors.

Finally, there is the TV option. This is the path that I chose, and I'm very satisfied with it. A 27" color TV can be found these days for around $250 (that article is from the year 2000, now a TV is some bucks, even the 100Hz).
Even cooler, is that you can pipe CATV into the coax and switch between watching TV on your Arcade box, and the S-Video input from the computer.

Make absolutely certain that whatever you do here, you get an S-Video capable video card and TV.
Side-by-sides of the two TV's and the computer monitor

I didn't think it would make a huge difference...it DOES. With the normal old RCA Composite video, the screen was blurry and washed out. Straight lines, and text were wavy and undistinct. Many of the smaller images (like ships and bullets in Galaga and the main character in Guantlet) were very poor looking and smeared. Text Scores and Initials were almost unreadable (especially bright white or red colors). I was extremely disappointed. Switching to S-Video made all the difference in the world. I had two 27" TV's available, and could drive both the Composite and S-Video (as well as the PC monitor) all at the same time, and did side-by-side comparisons. There is a huge difference. I actually like the S-Video TV mode the best. Even better than the PC Monitor, just because a lot of the jaggies that are present in lower resolution games ends up getting sort of averaged/smeared together in an analog anti-aliasing way...grin. So, just make sure to go with S-Video. You also want to make sure that there are audio inputs (and I wanted audio outs to be able to run to the separately powered computer sub woofer and satelites for watching TV).

Now, I did have to play around with the options a while to get the BEST display. Right now, the important ones that seem to give me EXCELLENT aspect ratios and size for ALL of the games (vertical, horizonal, even the NeoGeo type games) is to be sure to run with the -ntsc option and -640x480.


Mame on TV vs. CRT Monitor



It can look great with a little bit of tweaking on your part. Quality of image will depend on TV image quality, video card, its settings and connection used. Even on the most crappy TV you can make it look great. What looks blurry or blocky on a monitor usually looks fine on a tv. On a monitor you can have many resolutions, on a tv you are limited to a few. On a monitor you can see the entire screen, on a tv you will have either too little or too much tv realstate used.

What I learned:

* You don't need the greateast and latest video card to run MAME or other emulators. As long as it's not 3D you'll do fine. Even with that caveat, I found Project 64 to run flawlessy on a geforce 2 with the most resource intensive games (eg, Perfect Dark).

* Image screen will never "fit" the TV realstate like a normal tv signal. Either you get a bit of black bars around your screen (underscan) or you have the image overscan a bit outside your tv's viewable boundaries.

To get the best possible tv image you need to do a few things:

For a normal TV with S-Video or RCA inputs:
+ Set the resolution to 640 by 480 (32 bit). This is the best most compatible resolution for TV signals.
+ If possible use S-Video cables. It looks a tad better.
+ Play with the flicker and sharpness settings (if available) on your video card driver. I found you can trade off a bit of flicker for a bit of sharpness with considerable improvement.
+ Like said before, blow up your image size so that the screen overscans the viewable boundaries of your TV to a comfortable compromise.
+ After you are done setting up your cab pc, set your TV as the primary and only display. That means no clone mode and no dualview (in nvidia's case). Emulators are usually programmed to display on the primary monitor. Also games that use video overlays (eg. Daphne) usually will display to primary only.
+ If the emulator provides it, activate a "Double pixels" filter. This can go by names (eg. "Scale 2x") so you need to play with yout emulator settings. MAME does this automatically btw.

That only gets you halfway though. You need to tell MAME a few things:

(The following tips can be achieved with the command line version of MAME)

+ Add the parameter "-screen_aspect 4:3" (without the quotes) to your MAME command line. If you are using an HDTV in widescreen mode, make it "-screen_aspect 16:9". This eliminates black bars around MAME's game screen.
+ Play with the "-d3deffect sharp" parameters to sharpen the image a little bit. There are other filters (read the mame docs for more info). To run the previous parameter you also need to add "-d3d" switch also.

For example: to run Alien Syndrome on a TV I would use the following mame command:

mame.exe c:\mygames\aliensyn.zip -resolution 640x480x32 -joy -d3d -d3deffect sharp -screen_aspect 4:3

One last thing:

+ If your card is an older nvidia card, try TVTool. It can improve the svideo output considerable, removes blackbars, and disables macrovision. It doesn't work on newer cards though.



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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Hannes]
#289103 - 06/11/12 12:05 AM


> Yes yes, I know the that composite is not component
>
> I was digging an found the article about the MAME-Monitors again, here you have it,
> its from the September 13, 2009 and can be found at:

1) Preaching to the choir (I know all those things)

2) There's no mention of component in that article.

3) It's nice but it's old (because of some of the things discussed, it must be older than 2009) and there are lots of obsolete tips in it that no longer applies to MAME nor TV-out with nvidia cards.

These are my recommendations when using an SDTV:

Use the cabling/signal standard that provides the best possible image quality (component, s-video, composite, in that order)
Stay at the highest possible NTSC resolution supported by the TV and your video card's TV-out.
Avoid PAL mode, it's 50Hz - at 50Hz you'll get skipping sounds and jumpy scrolling.

Any post-processing you apply when using an SDTV will make the image worse.
I recommend disabling all of MAME's image post-processing (mame.ini):

Disable bilinear filtering (filter 0)
Disable all of MAME's D3D effects such as scanlines and PNG overlays (effect none)
Disable image prescaling, it's not useful at low resolutions (prescale 0)
Disable HLSL (hlsl_enable 0)

Keep in mind that an SDTV is essentially an arcade monitor with a tuner, therefore you don't need any post processing, it's better to send the cleanest possible image to the TV - as a real arcade game PCB would - then let the TV take care of the rest.

S



Hannes
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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Sune]
#289106 - 06/11/12 12:19 AM



I hope I can find an old SDTV with component-in,
I dont want that flat-screened/16:9 TVīs like this ...

http://www.willhaben.at/iad/viewimage?adId=41943085

I think that only the youngest of the CRT-TVīs got component, right?

I am going to look if I find a CRT-TV that got the charactarisic look of an old monitor and component if you suggest the component-in.

But than I have to retink the grafic-card-choice.
Which one would I look for then?


EDIT:

I just looked for TVīs with component-in, component-video an what ever keywords and could not find even a sigle one in the local second hand websites...

For the comparissm to S-Video as keyword, with S-Video I found 74 on one site...

Edited by Hannes (06/11/12 12:27 AM)



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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Hannes]
#289109 - 06/11/12 12:33 AM




Zero on eBay as well




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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Hannes]
#289110 - 06/11/12 12:33 AM Attachment: MSI_9800GT_bundle.jpg 24 KB (0 downloads)


> I hope I can find an old SDTV with component-in,
> I dont want that flat-screened/16:9 TV

A flat screen 16:9 TV is not too good for vertical games, but using bezel artwork (with artwork_crop 1 set) helps a lot. For horizontal games on a 16:9 TV you can use the additional space for original game artwork, this looks absolutely stunning at high resolutions. Then you'd use MAME's post processing effects to make the game itself look like it's running on an old CRT monitor. You can even curve the image, it's amazing. Try it on a desktop PC with flat panel monitor and see what you think.

> I am going to look if I find a CRT-TV that got the charactarisic look of an old
> monitor and component if you suggest the component-in.

I wouldn't go through the trouble for an old TV, personally I'd just use s-video, but component is better.

> But than I have to retink the grafic-card-choice.
> Which one would I look for then?

Please read my posts properly, I already told you the GTX 260 comes with a breakout cable that has both Component and S-video plugs on it.
Here's a photo.

S

[ATTACHED IMAGE]

Attachment



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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Sune]
#289111 - 06/11/12 12:52 AM




I am sorry if you think I am not reading properly, I really do but it is a lot of new knowledge, facts, and wisdom and its hard to recall every single detail.

But it doesīnt matter, I want to go with an old TV and I cannot find one with component, seems like the component is to young for the old CRT-TVīs....

A flat does not have the characteristic curved shape and further it will blow my budget.

An additional point is that I make research for me but also my 5 buddies that want to build a MAME at the same time. Itīs a group-project and every singe member decided for a CRT because of the cool vintage-look....



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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Hannes]
#289112 - 06/11/12 01:03 AM


> An additional point is that I make research for me but also my 5 buddies that want to
> build a MAME at the same time. Itīs a group-project and every singe member decided
> for a CRT because of the cool vintage-look....

If you buy an arcade cab that has a real arcade monitor in it and an Arcade VGA video card you can beat them all.

The Arcade VGA is a modified Radeon card that outputs true 15-31Khz RGB just like a real arcade PCB does. It hooks right up to an arcade monitor - or a CRT TV with SCART input.

S



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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Sune]
#289115 - 06/11/12 01:31 AM




Sorry, but that is outside my reach and goes over my knowledge....to be honestly I also did not really understand what you mean.

If a 15Khz-Monitor is built in, what hooks directly to a CRT TV with SCART input? The modified Readon? What do I need a CRT-TV for if a 15-31Khz-Monitor is already in?

No lets forget about that, that is to complicated, the suggested Card via S-Video sounds good and I can handle that.

The 100Hz TV is made to convert 50/60Hz input into a 100Hz picture for less flickering and the component-video seems to be a standart for modern LCD/Plasma-Displays as I could not find even a single CRT that features that ports.



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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Hannes]
#289116 - 06/11/12 01:51 AM


> Sorry, but that is outside my reach and goes over my knowledge....to be honestly I
> also did not really understand what you mean.

It's not much more complicated than connecting a regular video card to a regular monitor. It's just a different signal and a different type of connector.

> If a 15Khz-Monitor is built in, what hooks directly to a CRT TV with SCART input? The
> modified Readon? What do I need a CRT-TV for if a 15-31Khz-Monitor is already in?

If your arcade cabinet came with an arcade monitor you don't need a TV. Get an ArcadeVGA video card instead.
If there is no arcade monitor in your arcade cabinet, you can use a CRT TV with SCART input. Then use the Arcade VGA instead of a regular video card to drive it, through the RGB pins of the SCART input. It'll work exactly like a 15Khz arcade monitor.

Just an idea, something you might not have thought about. You get to impress your friends and make the rest of us jealous at the same time, SCART is Europe-only.

> The 100Hz TV is made to convert 50/60Hz input into a 100Hz picture for less
> flickering and the component-video seems to be a standart for modern
> LCD/Plasma-Displays as I could not find even a single CRT that features that ports.

Okay. I don't know what the situation is in Germany but here in Brazil such CRT TVs are common, we have two CRT SDTVs with component inputs in the house.

S



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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Sune]
#289121 - 06/11/12 02:06 AM




Quote:

If your arcade cabinet came with an arcade monitor you don't need a TV. Get an ArcadeVGA video card instead.
If there is no arcade monitor in your arcade cabinet, you can use a CRT TV with SCART input. Then use the Arcade VGA instead of a regular video card to drive it, through the RGB pins of the SCART input. It'll work exactly like a 15Khz arcade monitor.

That sounds interesting....

yes, every better TV here got SCART, thats true.
In that case, would not it be the best solution to look for such a acarde VGA-Card?

The Acarde-VGA-Card got a SCART-Connector? Or did I get you wrong?

Brazil...sounds nice, your women are far better then ours here (Austria, its the little country next to Germany that produce RED BULL and where Arnold Schwarzenegger comes from



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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Hannes]
#289124 - 06/11/12 02:23 AM





Hmmmmm....but that MAME's post processing effects starts running trough my head....

Would a LCD-Display running these effects look genuine?

I was looking for videos on youtube.com but could find anything.

A 30" LCD would not be that exensive, if it is not Full HD but HD-ready even cheaper, might be that a LCD-Disply looks better with less resolution.

But I would need to see that effects....



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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Hannes]
#289126 - 06/11/12 03:04 AM


> yes, every better TV here got SCART, thats true.
> In that case, would not it be the best solution to look for such a acarde VGA-Card?

Short of the real thing, it's the most authentic way to play these games.
http://www.ultimarc.com/avgainf.html
Also read this: http://www.ultimarc.com/monfaq.html
Note that, contrary to what the page says there is no reason to buy an ArcadeVGA if you're not going to use an arcade monitor (or a SCART equipped SDTV).

> The Acarde-VGA-Card got a SCART-Connector? Or did I get you wrong?

The ArcadeVGA has regular VGA and DVI outputs. Andy sells a VGA breakout cable that you can then solder a SCART connector to. Wiring diagram is in the FAQ (link above), there's also this:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/callum.henderson/basement_boomera_000007.htm
You can also try your luck with a premade VGA to SCART cable, there are several on Ebay UK - trouble is that there is no way to know if the pinout is correct.

> Brazil...sounds nice, your women are far better then ours here (Austria, its the
> little country next to Germany that produce RED BULL and where Arnold Schwarzenegger
> comes from

I've lived here for 6 years, I'm from Denmark originally..like Arnold's best buddy Sven-Ole. And you are right about the women.

S



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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Hannes]
#289127 - 06/11/12 03:10 AM


> Hmmmmm....but that MAME's post processing effects starts running trough my head....
>
> Would a LCD-Display running these effects look genuine?

Nothing beats the real thing!
A nice HLSL CRT effect + original, high res artwork looks pretty damn good on a flatpanel though.

> A 30" LCD would not be that exensive, if it is not Full HD but HD-ready even cheaper,
> might be that a LCD-Disply looks better with less resolution.

Yeah full HD is not necessary.

There's a couple of screen shots in the HLSL threads on the "Sticky Collection" board.

Try it yourself. Take MAME with you on a flash drive and go visit someone who has a huge flatpanel monitor and a DX9 video card.

S



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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Hannes]
#289128 - 06/11/12 03:11 AM


OK, thats really looking cool, you know what you are talking about.


http://www.gameex.info/forums/topic/9796-mame-now-with-scanlines/

A bit toooooo scanlined for my eyes but I am sure it looks better in the reality.... are the effects adjustable?



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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Hannes]
#289132 - 06/11/12 03:25 AM




So, no its 3:30 in the morning, I want to go to bed since 11:00 but you kept me on the computer

You gave me tons of information and insight in the mame-monitoring.

I really appreciate and I will come back tomorrow with some further questions if you allow me..

I think I will go with an 32" LCD, post processed like scanlines and curvy outlines/shape. Over it a glass with a black painted bezel (on the backside) in the same curvy format as the image of the game.
The glass gives the shiny surface of a CRT plus will hide the the to wide width of the screen as well as the frame of the Flatscreen...

I think that could look real vintage, what do you think?



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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Hannes]
#289133 - 06/11/12 03:25 AM


> http://www.gameex.info/forums/topic/9796-mame-now-with-scanlines/
>
> A bit toooooo scanlined for my eyes but I am sure it looks better in the reality....

Yeah the lines are uneven and ugly in that screenshot, doesn't look anything like an arcade monitor to me. If you put some effort into it you can come up with a much better looking effect.

> are the effects adjustable?

Yes, there's a ton of parameters you can tweak. It helps if you know a thing or two about CRT display technology though..

Open mame.ini in notepad and see for yourself.

S



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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Sune]
#289134 - 06/11/12 03:28 AM





When my build is that far I will come back to you anyways for the adjustment as I dont know ZERO about CRT/Acarde-Monitors at all.



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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Hannes]
#289135 - 06/11/12 03:29 AM


> I think I will go with an 32" LCD, post processed like scanlines and curvy
> outlines/shape. Over it a glass with a black painted bezel (on the backside) in the
> same curvy format as the image of the game.
> The glass gives the shiny surface of a CRT plus will hide the the to wide width of
> the screen as well as the frame of the Flatscreen...
>
> I think that could look real vintage, what do you think?

That's an interesting idea, it sounds like it could create an effective enough illusion.

Personally I'd never put a flatpanel monitor in an arcade cabinet but that's just me.

S



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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Hannes]
#289136 - 06/11/12 03:30 AM


> When my build is that far I will come back to you anyways for the adjustment as I
> dont know ZERO about CRT/Acarde-Monitors at all.

Feel free, I've been around for over a decade, I'll still be here when your monitor is hooked up.

S



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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Sune]
#289141 - 06/11/12 04:40 AM




after all that monitor stuff I could mit sleep and was looking how much flatscreens are.

I did mit decide yet to go with a panel but das some hlsl-stuff and I am impressed.

As I want to go huge I was looking for 32"ers and saw that I get them for under 150€....

The question now is: should I go for the highest resolution I can get for the money or would a lower res like 1366 x 768 be definitly a plus for the vintage effect?

Or in other words: 2 devices, both for 150 bucks

Model A HD-Ready ( 1366 x 768 )
Model B Full-HD. ( 1920 x 1080 )

which model should I take?



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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Hannes]
#289149 - 06/11/12 05:59 AM


> The question now is: should I go for the highest resolution I can get for the money
> or would a lower res like 1366 x 768 be definitly a plus for the vintage effect?

Quite the opposite - the higher the resolution, the better quality the effects.

The GTX 260 should be fine for driving the 1920x1080 display + generating HLSL effects. Obviously the higher the resolution, the more GPU power is needed to draw them.

There are some HLSL settings that bring even my 1GB GTX 460 to its knees, it's been a while since I played around with it so I don't remember which ones.

When using HLSL, you are supposed to disable the other post processing settings - bilinear filtering, prescale (HLSL has its own prescale setting) and effects png (HLSL uses aperture.png).

This is my current HLSL configuration (from mame.ini) that I use for all games at 1280x1024:

hlsl_enable 1
hlslpath hlsl
hlsl_ini_read 0
hlsl_ini_write 0
hlslini %g
hlsl_prescale_x 3
hlsl_prescale_y 3
hlsl_preset -1
hlsl_write
hlsl_snap_width 1280
hlsl_snap_height 1024
shadow_mask_alpha 0.10
shadow_mask_texture aperture.png
shadow_mask_x_count 720
shadow_mask_y_count 576
shadow_mask_usize 0.18750
shadow_mask_vsize 0.12500
curvature 0.03
pincushion 0.03
scanline_alpha 0.75
scanline_size 1.0
scanline_height 0.7
scanline_bright_scale .65
scanline_bright_offset 0.6
scanline_jitter 0.10
defocus 0.0,0.0
converge_x 0.0,0.0,0.0
converge_y 0.0,0.0,0.0
radial_converge_x 0.0,0.0,0.0
radial_converge_y 0.0,0.0,0.0
red_ratio 1.0,0.0,0.0
grn_ratio 0.0,1.0,0.0
blu_ratio 0.0,0.0,1.0
saturation 1.5
offset 0.0,0.0,0.0
scale 1.0,1.0,1.0
power 1.0,1.0,1.0
floor 0.0,0.0,0.0
phosphor_life 0.0,0.0,0.0
yiq_enable 0
yiq_cc 3.59754545
yiq_a 0.5
yiq_b 0.5
yiq_o 0.0
yiq_p 1.0
yiq_n 1.0
yiq_y 6.0
yiq_i 1.2
yiq_q 0.6
yiq_scan_time 52.6
yiq_phase_count 2

I don't know what happens if you use these settings on a display with a higher resolution, it'll probably look different.
You can tweak all the parameters from the sliders menu in real time while mame is running.

S



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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Sune]
#289164 - 06/11/12 10:35 AM




Hmmm, the question is if I still should go with then 260 if I go with a Flatpanel via HDMI or YUV...if I dont need the S-Video any longer I dont want to save in the wrong side and when the post processing is that exhausting for the grafic-card I want to have resources left.



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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Hannes]
#289207 - 06/11/12 10:34 PM


> Hmmm, the question is if I still should go with then 260 if I go with a Flatpanel via
> HDMI or YUV...if I dont need the S-Video any longer I dont want to save in the wrong
> side and when the post processing is that exhausting for the grafic-card I want to
> have resources left.

I'm positive the GTX 260 will deliver at 1920x1080.

When I said that HLSL brought my GTX 460 to its knees I meant when I was playing around with the parameters, not with the settings that I'm actually using.

But it would be useful if someone with a 2xx card and a high res display would chime in.

S



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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Sune]
#289220 - 06/11/12 11:53 PM




I have sent a mail to www.mamedev.org, the MAME developers....

Lets see if they help on that questions...



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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Hannes]
#289227 - 06/12/12 01:06 AM




Today I was thinking about the

Acarde-CRT/TV-CRT vs LCD/Plasma/PC-Monitor


topic and found an interesting comparissm:

http://mirrors.arcadecontrols.com/OscarControls/monitors.shtml


Unfortunately hte sheet is quite useles due to the fact that the images are

1, are lined under one anothr so that you can only see 2 or max 3 at the same time and directly next to each other

and

2, tumbnails, which means that you have to open the dumbnails to get to a usefull compareable image....but than you have to have the other 7 images burned in your memories to compare....

that does not work properly for me so I did the work, opened every single dumbnail, pastet them horizontally next to each other and added the facts.
I even arranged them in order to have the most similar images side by side to one another to have the best possible overview.

Surprisingly, the high res computer monitor gave the most accurate image compared to the Wels-Gardner D9 100 XGA.

So meanwhile I think a high res LCD, post processed, can looks authentic...

(I hope that image works since you cannot upload images to the board...)




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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Hannes]
#289270 - 06/12/12 06:53 AM


> Surprisingly, the high res computer monitor gave the most accurate image compared to
> the Wels-Gardner D9 100 XGA.
>

The Wells-Gardner D9100 supports PC resolutions and has a tighter dot pitch, so it's not surprising that it looks very similar to a PC monitor's output.

The problem is that you aren't supposed to see sharply defined pixels with distinct colors. It's supposed to blur together on a 15KHz arcade monitor so that a bush looks like a bush and not a pile of different colored pixels.

The most "authentic" ones are the two in the middle of the bottom row. That's how a real 15KHz arcade monitor looks.


I own a cabinet with a standard resolution 15KHz arcade monitor. I am currently using an ArcadeVGA 3000 video card through a J-PAC (both are Ultimarc products).

I use the GroovyMAME build, which is designed for running on arcade monitors.

I have also experimented with using a cheap Radeon HD 4550 with the CRT_Emudriver modified Radeon drivers and it also works quite well with GroovyMAME.

More info on GroovyMAME at the GroovyMAME support forum if you're curious...
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?board=52.0



GroovyMAME support forum on BYOAC
CRT_EmuDriver - ATI Radeon Catalyst video driver for GroovyMAME
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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Sune]
#293060 - 08/01/12 09:36 PM


> > The question now is: should I go for the highest resolution I can get for the money
> > or would a lower res like 1366 x 768 be definitly a plus for the vintage effect?
>
> Quite the opposite - the higher the resolution, the better quality the effects.

> S


After you told me that and since I want to go a bit bigger I decided to go with a 30" with 2560x1600 resolution...do you see any problem using this kind of screens?



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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Hannes]
#293065 - 08/01/12 11:08 PM


> > > The question now is: should I go for the highest resolution I can get for the
> money
> > > or would a lower res like 1366 x 768 be definitly a plus for the vintage effect?
> >
> > Quite the opposite - the higher the resolution, the better quality the effects.
>
> > S
>
>
> After you told me that and since I want to go a bit bigger I decided to go with a 30"
> with 2560x1600 resolution...do you see any problem using this kind of screens?

The only thing I can think of is that you will need a beefier video card than a GTX 260 to be able to do HLSL, artwork and everything at such a high resolution. I don't know how beefy, I haven't seen anybody really benchmark this stuff. It's going to look awesome for sure.


S



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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Hannes]
#293091 - 08/02/12 03:54 AM


100 or 200Euro on top of the videocard budget would not be a big deal.

What exactly is the Artwork in that matter, the spacers left and right of the gamefield if upright games were played on a landscape screen?



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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Hannes]
#293141 - 08/02/12 09:55 PM


> 100 or 200Euro on top of the videocard budget would not be a big deal.
>
> What exactly is the Artwork in that matter, the spacers left and right of the
> gamefield if upright games were played on a landscape screen?

You mean you've been playing games without the artwork??

Go download some and see for yourself:
http://mrdo.mameworld.info/mame_artwork_ingame.html

S



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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Sune]
#293150 - 08/02/12 10:55 PM




I never played a MAME-Cabinet so far.
I downloaded some of the Artwork, looks like the grafics around the screen, right?

If so, what got it to do with the screen?
I still have to lern a lot.....



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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Hannes]
#293156 - 08/03/12 12:12 AM


> I never played a MAME-Cabinet so far.
> I downloaded some of the Artwork, looks like the grafics around the screen, right?

It's scanned artwork from the cabinet that the game shipped in. Sometimes overlays as well, mostly used by older games such as Armor Attack and Boot Hill. You wouldn't want to play those without the artwork.

> If so, what got it to do with the screen?
> I still have to lern a lot.....

It's like I said earlier, your gigantic flatpanel is not 4:3 like an arcade monitor which means you'd have to look at empty black space around the game graphics, especially when playing games that used a vertically oriented monitor like Pac Man, Donkey Kong, Gyruss, Frogger and a ton of other classics.
Now you can feast your eyes on beautiful, high-quality original artwork lovingly restored by talented people in the community instead of looking at empty space.

To get the most game display as possible, keep "artwork crop" activated and use only backdrop, bezel and overlay artwork.

S



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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Sune]
#293163 - 08/03/12 01:42 AM




I see. like I stated bevore I am going to build a 4:3 frame with curveature over the LCD screen to get the correct ratio. A glassshield on top should give an perfect illusion.

As for the vertically oriented games, here would the artwork be helpful.



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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Hannes]
#293170 - 08/03/12 03:00 AM


Would it look look like that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1zwoJRWciI&feature=youtube_gdata_player

In that case, with the shadow that simulates the depth, I could go without the frame but that would only work with some very old games that had such a cab with a glass and s bezel on it I think.



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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Hannes]
#293174 - 08/03/12 03:18 AM


and one more question, would the HLSL only curve and scanline the game aera or the artwork too?

That would not look good...



Sune
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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Hannes]
#293175 - 08/03/12 03:23 AM


> and one more question, would the HLSL only curve and scanline the game aera or the
> artwork too?

Not only that, it curves and scanlines your whole house and the street outside as well.

> That would not look good...

Yes I agree, that would look terrible!

Why don't you load up MAME on the PC you're using right now and see for yourself what it looks like?

S



Hannes
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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Sune]
#293177 - 08/03/12 03:30 AM


I build the cabinets for me and my other friends, the software-department is my friends task as I am not a software guy.

He is very busy at the moment...thats why I ask in the forum....

From what I understood you use the artwork and the HLSL, thats why I asked you



Sune
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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Hannes]
#293183 - 08/03/12 04:45 AM


> I build the cabinets for me and my other friends, the software-department is my
> friends task as I am not a software guy.
>
> He is very busy at the moment...thats why I ask in the forum....
>
> From what I understood you use the artwork and the HLSL, thats why I asked you

You need:

The mame executable

1 rom.zip in the roms folder (btime.zip for example, not hard to find, don't ask here though)

artwork zip file for that game in the artwork folder

HLSL and artwork enabled in mame.ini

Don't rely on my opinion, you'll be spending a lot of time and money so you should really see this for yourself and see what you think.

S



Hannes
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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Sune]
#293185 - 08/03/12 04:53 AM


But I rely in you

You gave me a big insight and information, but I see the point, I will try....



Hannes
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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Hannes]
#295259 - 09/08/12 12:22 AM


Sir Sune...I need your advise once more.
I now start to understand the advantage of the tube screen.

I read that the CRTīs can play back literally any resolution a games is designed in.

4:3 ratio is also a very good thing. I will build a rotating CRT so that I get rid of the use of artwork if the game got another orientation then the screen.

Now I need some advise, is a usual TV via SCART (RGB) really as good as a arcade monitor. Some people say "IT REALLY IS AN ARCADE MONITOR"

I would like to go with an 29" or slightly bigger, old TV.

Is there something negative about it...



Sune
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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Hannes]
#295267 - 09/08/12 01:31 AM


> Now I need some advise, is a usual TV via SCART (RGB) really as good as a arcade
> monitor. Some people say "IT REALLY IS AN ARCADE MONITOR"

It's true. An SDTV with SCART input is a 15KHz arcade monitor with a TV tuner.

Two issues that I can think of;

The image will probably not fit the screen in all resolutions. Arcade monitors have easily reachable zoom controls but most TVs don't. Some will have picture size controls on the PCB inside, on other TVs these controls might be accessible from the "secret" service menu, some TVs will even remember settings for various resolutions.

Beware that some cheap TVs may not actually support RGB on the SCART plug, only composite and S-Video. And some TVs need to be fed a low voltage to pin 16 in order to auto-switch to RGB mode. You'll have to look up the details yourself because I can't remember anymore.

> Is there something negative about it...

Not really. Not all games are 15KHz though. But google "soft-15Khz".

S



Hannes
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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Sune]
#295319 - 09/08/12 04:32 PM


> > Now I need some advise, is a usual TV via SCART (RGB) really as good as a arcade
> > monitor. Some people say "IT REALLY IS AN ARCADE MONITOR"
>
> It's true. An SDTV with SCART input is a 15KHz arcade monitor with a TV tuner.
>
> Beware that some cheap TVs may not actually support RGB on the SCART plug, only
> composite and S-Video. And some TVs need to be fed a low voltage to pin 16 in order
> to auto-switch to RGB mode. You'll have to look up the details yourself because I
> can't remember anymore.
>
> > Is there something negative about it...
>
> Not really. Not all games are 15KHz though. But google "soft-15Khz".
>
> S

And the old SCART-TV is to prefer over, lets say a 24" Computermonitor, right?

How can I find out if a TV's Scart supports real RGB...?



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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Hannes]
#295333 - 09/08/12 09:43 PM


> And the old SCART-TV is to prefer over, lets say a 24" Computermonitor, right?

If it's important to you that the games look like they did in the 80's then yes, definitely, and if you can make it rotate, even better.

From my point of view, the only upside to using a modern, non-4:3 high resolution display in an arcade cab would be the artwork.

> How can I find out if a TV's Scart supports real RGB...?

Look in the manual, look on the internet, ask someone who works with TVs etc.

Most TVs with SCART input do support it, even some flat panel TVs.

S



Hannes
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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Sune]
#295387 - 09/09/12 04:34 PM


Do you see then the need of Ultimate Arc's Acarde VGA or something similar?

http://www.ultimarc.com/avgainf.html

Would you say I can go with an 29" TV?



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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Hannes]
#295575 - 09/11/12 10:08 PM


> Do you see then the need of Ultimate Arc's Acarde VGA or something similar?
>
> http://www.ultimarc.com/avgainf.html

That's one way to do it. You could also google soft-15Khz as i suggested earlier.

> Would you say I can go with an 29" TV?

Yes, size is not an issue (video card-load wise) when its an SDTV because you'll be running at low resolutions anyway. Make sure it can do 60Hz though!!

S



Hannes
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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Sune]
#295578 - 09/11/12 11:43 PM




I researched about Soft-15KHz as I take your advises very serious, like always but I did not know that the Soft 15KHz-Software can replace the VGA-Card (as a Hardware)...as soon as I have some time I will go into that stuff deeper but would like to get a recommendation which path you would go....the Soft-15KHz or the VGA-Card... some bucks are not the issue if it is the better solution.

As for the 29incher....I thought BECAUSE it is a STandartTV
and I am very close as well as because I run it on low resolution that the big size will be a problem on short distance....but would love big screen.

I think I still do not really understand the MAME-Resolution-Stuff but maybee you can bring some light in the topic.

To get a 60Hz-device would not be a big problem I think...what about one of the 100Hz-ers? I could easily come by them as well

Thanks for all the help btw, I appreciate A LOT




Sune
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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Hannes]
#295580 - 09/12/12 12:43 AM


> I researched about Soft-15KHz as I take your advises very serious, like always but I
> did not know that the Soft 15KHz-Software can replace the VGA-Card (as a
> Hardware)...as soon as I have some time I will go into that stuff deeper but would
> like to get a recommendation which path you would go....the Soft-15KHz or the
> VGA-Card... some bucks are not the issue if it is the better solution.

Right now I would probably go with Soft-15Khz and for the sake of flexibility try to get the most powerful, modern video card I could afford that's compatible with it.

Not knocking the ArcadeVGA at all, it's just what I would do instinctively. I'd have to do more research and see what other people are doing.

> As for the 29incher....I thought BECAUSE it is a STandartTV
> and I am very close as well as because I run it on low resolution that the big size
> will be a problem on short distance....but would love big screen.

This is a question of personal taste. I guess if who's playing will be standing very close to the screen it's probably going to be a bit overwhelming. If you have to turn your head to follow the action when playing either the screen is too big or the person is too close. Maybe consider this when you design your arcade cab and put some distance between monitor and control panel. Try to find photos online of cabs with 29" CRT monitors.

> I think I still do not really understand the MAME-Resolution-Stuff but maybee you can
> bring some light in the topic.

I'll try but you have to ask some questions then..

> To get a 60Hz-device would not be a big problem I think...what about one of the
> 100Hz-ers? I could easily come by them as well

It still has to be able to sync to 60Hz. Ideally it should be 120Hz then I guess? Honestly I'm not sure what the implications are, if the 100Hz refresh rate is a post-processing thing or what.

> Thanks for all the help btw, I appreciate A LOT

No problem, you're welcome.

S



krick
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Re: Intel Centrino Duo 1,8Ghz VS Intel Pentium 4 - 3,06 Ghz??? new [Re: Sune]
#295582 - 09/12/12 02:08 AM


You can also use the CRT_EmuDriver (modified Catalyst driver) with a compatible ATI Radeon card and GroovyMAME as I mentioned above instead of Soft15KHz.

There's people using the above with a device called the UMSA (Ultimate SCART Adapter) to connect their PC to an SCART TV...

http://scarthunter.blogspot.com.au/2012/06/umsa-ultimate-scart-adapter-review.html



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CRT_EmuDriver - ATI Radeon Catalyst video driver for GroovyMAME
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