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John IVModerator
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[Annc] Unit3D Pinball pre-alpha released.
#319074 - 12/21/13 01:11 AM


http://www.vpforums.org/index.php?showtopic=26236&hl=

This is the culmination of two plus years of work by a couple of French programmers to merge the 3D tables and editing capabilities of Future Pinball with the Unity 3D physics engine and PinMAME for ROM interaction.

It's the first rough release but it shows promise. Though FP has been given new leases on life with the new method for injecting updated physics through the BAM program, the original .exe and its graphic tech are a decade old. Anyhow, it takes a decently beefy system but you can cut down a lot of the graphic effects. Here's the longer 68 page thread, laugh.

http://www.vpforums.org/index.php?s=1dd958bbf8232b69d8102df1ea945514&showtopic=16056&page=68



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hotgraphics
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Re: [Annc] Unit3D Pinball pre-alpha released. new [Re: John IV]
#319079 - 12/21/13 03:02 AM


Great to see there's now a 3D alternative to VP that uses PinMAME. Thanks for sharing the news.






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Re: [Annc] Unit3D Pinball pre-alpha released. new [Re: John IV]
#319086 - 12/21/13 06:38 AM


> http://www.vpforums.org/index.php?showtopic=26236&hl=
>
> This is the culmination of two plus years of work by a couple of French programmers
> to merge the 3D tables and editing capabilities of Future Pinball with the Unity 3D
> physics engine and VPMame for ROM interaction.
>
> It's the first rough release but it shows promise. Though FP has been given new
> leases on life with the new method for injecting updated physics through the BAM
> program, the original .exe and its graphic tech are a decade old. Anyhow, it takes a
> decently beefy system but you can cut down a lot of the graphic effects. Here's the
> longer 68 page thread, laugh.
>
> http://www.vpforums.org/index.php?s=1dd958bbf8232b69d8102df1ea945514&showtopic=16056&page=68


Wow.

Just played with it really quick, and it's pretty cool. This'll be something to watch, me thinks.




RELAX and just have fun. Remember, it's all about the games.




Dullaron
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What ever you do... new [Re: John IV]
#319088 - 12/21/13 08:01 AM


do not save the settings. Will break it. I had that problem.



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John IVModerator
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Re: What ever you do... new [Re: Dullaron]
#319093 - 12/21/13 08:40 AM


If you choose a different display mode in the rendering section besides fake fullscreen mono and you have multiple monitors it doesn't like it and errors out w/ a COM error on subsequent runs. You can get out of it by rewriting the baseline configuration file options.ui.puo in the \config folder. Shouldn't be necessary to re-register the pinmame dll.



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zambr
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Re: What ever you do... new [Re: John IV]
#319099 - 12/21/13 04:10 PM


This looks very promising

Ideally, shouldn't this be using a modern MAME build rather than PinMAME? I thought MAME supported pin ROM sets nowadays.

I assume current MAME can't emulate the dot matrix display yes?

Edited by zambr (12/21/13 04:15 PM)



StilettoAdministrator
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Re: What ever you do... new [Re: zambr]
#319103 - 12/21/13 05:35 PM


> This looks very promising
>
> Ideally, shouldn't this be using a modern MAME build rather than PinMAME? I thought
> MAME supported pin ROM sets nowadays.
>
> I assume current MAME can't emulate the dot matrix display yes?

No, MAME can do that with some of them IIRC.

However, MAME can't - and doesn't want to - imitate Visual PinMAME's COM-model DLL hackery.

MAME would need to come up with some new way to be controlled by an external engine like Visual Pinball and the like, and Visual Pinball would need to add support for this method. This method of being controlled would also have to be cross-platform - so, not Visual PinMAME's Windows-only method. This has been discussed in the past.

- Stiletto



HowardC
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Re: What ever you do... new [Re: Stiletto]
#319112 - 12/22/13 01:25 AM


> > This looks very promising
> >
> > Ideally, shouldn't this be using a modern MAME build rather than PinMAME? I thought
> > MAME supported pin ROM sets nowadays.
> >
> > I assume current MAME can't emulate the dot matrix display yes?
>
> No, MAME can do that with some of them IIRC.
>
> However, MAME can't - and doesn't want to - imitate Visual PinMAME's COM-model DLL
> hackery.
>
> MAME would need to come up with some new way to be controlled by an external engine
> like Visual Pinball and the like, and Visual Pinball would need to add support for
> this method. This method of being controlled would also have to be cross-platform -
> so, not Visual PinMAME's Windows-only method. This has been discussed in the past.
>
> - Stiletto

Except that this just isn't true. Mame's output system isn't platform independent... it's pretty much windows only, so there is no reason that pinball interfacing can't be treated in a similar manner. Make an input system similar to the output system (technically you could use the exact same method) and you are done.

If mamehooker can accurately sync the gambling game lights and rapid fire outputs like in Terminator 2 properly with my bad coding practices then it should be able to handle the output stream of a pinball table pretty well in addition to an input stream and dmd matrix stream. Because windows event messages are native and built into any windows.."window" it is probably the fastest method you can possibly use short of compiling mame into the pinball simulation itself.

The real reason it hasn't been done, I hate to say, is probably politics. Similar to that whole "no gambling game" nonsense we had to deal with.

I will agree that the com dll nonsense isn't the best way to do it though... that pretty much requires a custom build of mame, which doesn't make any sense and would essentially be pinmame all over again.

But just for the record like 70% of the pinball games in mame are broken... I'm not sure why... they work in pinmame so it could be used as a guide to hook them up. Maybe pinmame's emulation drivers are all hacked up? Maybe it's just that nobody can be bothered to work on them?



HowardC
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Re: [Annc] Unit3D Pinball pre-alpha released. new [Re: Mr. Do]
#319113 - 12/22/13 01:28 AM


> > http://www.vpforums.org/index.php?showtopic=26236&hl=
> >
> > This is the culmination of two plus years of work by a couple of French programmers
> > to merge the 3D tables and editing capabilities of Future Pinball with the Unity 3D
> > physics engine and VPMame for ROM interaction.
> >
> > It's the first rough release but it shows promise. Though FP has been given new
> > leases on life with the new method for injecting updated physics through the BAM
> > program, the original .exe and its graphic tech are a decade old. Anyhow, it takes
> a
> > decently beefy system but you can cut down a lot of the graphic effects. Here's the
> > longer 68 page thread, laugh.
> >
> >
> http://www.vpforums.org/index.php?s=1dd958bbf8232b69d8102df1ea945514&showtopic=16056&page=68
>
>
> Wow.
>
> Just played with it really quick, and it's pretty cool. This'll be something to
> watch, me thinks.

Assuming it's kept up it will certainly be a relief to retire the hacked up 20 year old nightmare that is visual pinball. Don't get me wrong, I loved it back in the day (still do) but when people are having to pre-render objects and make sprites out of them to use on a simulator that's technically capable of 3d graphics, it's time to move on.



Dullaron
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Re: [Annc] Unit3D Pinball pre-alpha released. new [Re: HowardC]
#319120 - 12/22/13 04:21 AM


> > > http://www.vpforums.org/index.php?showtopic=26236&hl=
> > >
> > > This is the culmination of two plus years of work by a couple of French
> programmers
> > > to merge the 3D tables and editing capabilities of Future Pinball with the Unity
> 3D
> > > physics engine and VPMame for ROM interaction.
> > >
> > > It's the first rough release but it shows promise. Though FP has been given new
> > > leases on life with the new method for injecting updated physics through the BAM
> > > program, the original .exe and its graphic tech are a decade old. Anyhow, it
> takes
> > a
> > > decently beefy system but you can cut down a lot of the graphic effects. Here's
> the
> > > longer 68 page thread, laugh.
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.vpforums.org/index.php?s=1dd958bbf8232b69d8102df1ea945514&showtopic=16056&page=68
> >
> >
> > Wow.
> >
> > Just played with it really quick, and it's pretty cool. This'll be something to
> > watch, me thinks.
>
> Assuming it's kept up it will certainly be a relief to retire the hacked up 20 year
> old nightmare that is visual pinball. Don't get me wrong, I loved it back in the day
> (still do) but when people are having to pre-render objects and make sprites out of
> them to use on a simulator that's technically capable of 3d graphics, it's time to
> move on.

All I can say is Pinball Arcade all the way. Even though cost money to buy the tables. No hacks and no bullshit.



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https://sites.google.com/site/o0kinghanco0o/mame_building_info (Updated on the 07/18/2017 at 9:49 PM.)



HowardC
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Re: [Annc] Unit3D Pinball pre-alpha released. new [Re: Dullaron]
#319126 - 12/22/13 06:25 AM


> > > > http://www.vpforums.org/index.php?showtopic=26236&hl=
> > > >
> > > > This is the culmination of two plus years of work by a couple of French
> > programmers
> > > > to merge the 3D tables and editing capabilities of Future Pinball with the
> Unity
> > 3D
> > > > physics engine and VPMame for ROM interaction.
> > > >
> > > > It's the first rough release but it shows promise. Though FP has been given new
> > > > leases on life with the new method for injecting updated physics through the
> BAM
> > > > program, the original .exe and its graphic tech are a decade old. Anyhow, it
> > takes
> > > a
> > > > decently beefy system but you can cut down a lot of the graphic effects. Here's
> > the
> > > > longer 68 page thread, laugh.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.vpforums.org/index.php?s=1dd958bbf8232b69d8102df1ea945514&showtopic=16056&page=68
> > >
> > >
> > > Wow.
> > >
> > > Just played with it really quick, and it's pretty cool. This'll be something to
> > > watch, me thinks.
> >
> > Assuming it's kept up it will certainly be a relief to retire the hacked up 20 year
> > old nightmare that is visual pinball. Don't get me wrong, I loved it back in the
> day
> > (still do) but when people are having to pre-render objects and make sprites out of
> > them to use on a simulator that's technically capable of 3d graphics, it's time to
> > move on.
>
> All I can say is Pinball Arcade all the way. Even though cost money to buy the
> tables. No hacks and no bullshit.

No accurate emulation, "pinmame cab" options, or view options either. Not only that but most tables will never get a pinball arcade release due to licensing issues. I mean when the Addams Family, the best selling table of all time, isn't on the list of tables, then something is wrong. Pinball Arcade is ok, but it's more like the console ports of arcade titles from back in the day... close but no cigar.



John IVModerator
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Re: [Annc] Unit3D Pinball pre-alpha released. new [Re: HowardC]
#319127 - 12/22/13 06:39 AM


I agree TPA has its problems, but it is likely using Mame for its emulation, Steve Ellenoff of Pinmame went there to work. They promise cab view and you can change between 4 different views. The PC version after their 360 debacle will get dx11 lighting too.

Anyhow, that said I still prefer Future Pinball w/ updated physics. This new one has potential but is very raw right now, as one would expect from a pre-alpha.



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HowardC
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Re: [Annc] Unit3D Pinball pre-alpha released. new [Re: John IV]
#319128 - 12/22/13 07:15 AM


> I agree TPA has its problems, but it is likely using Mame for its emulation, Steve
> Ellenoff of Pinmame went there to work. They promise cab view and you can change
> between 4 different views. The PC version after their 360 debacle will get dx11
> lighting too.
>
> Anyhow, that said I still prefer Future Pinball w/ updated physics. This new one has
> potential but is very raw right now, as one would expect from a pre-alpha.

Maybe it has something to do with the DMD rendering then... I admittedly haven't played all the PBA titles, but in terms of the roms, they all seemed a bit off... barely noticeable but still something screwy.

Regardless of that, I'm not sure if android tablets and the game consoles have enough horse power to emulate the roms, especially android tablets.

In terms of the stuff they are supposed to deliver... well we'll see when it gets here. I was going to get the Wii U versions... with a secondary screen to show the DMD, ect it seemed like a no-brainer, but I was shocked to see that the second screen wasn't really taken advantage of at all, nor were the "built in" nudge controls of the Wii U gamepad. I think they need to stop making new tables for a bit and work on optimizing their engine to the various platforms they support.

I already prefer this (Unity3d) to FP, even with updated physics. It has a ways to go, but in terms of DMD/scoreboard support it already blows both visual pinball and FP out of the water.... no fiddling with the zorder of vpinmame, no focus issues, it just works.



John IVModerator
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Re: [Annc] Unit3D Pinball pre-alpha released. new [Re: HowardC]
#319129 - 12/22/13 08:16 AM


Yes it's definitely nice to have the ROM interaction baked in so nicely compared to the old VP way.

There is a reluctance / pride thing going on w/ many of the FP authors who have since begun doing SS tables where they enjoy 'simulating' the ROM interaction. Just seems to me it would be nicer for them to be able to just give that to pinmame and concentrate on the creation of the tables. Shrug. It'll be interesting to see which 'side' comes to the table first and embraces this new method. The VP guys haven't dealt w/ 3d table creation esp. inside FP, so we'll see I suppose. Options are good.



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HowardC
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Re: [Annc] Unit3D Pinball pre-alpha released. new [Re: John IV]
#319131 - 12/22/13 08:35 AM


> Yes it's definitely nice to have the ROM interaction baked in so nicely compared to
> the old VP way.
>
> There is a reluctance / pride thing going on w/ many of the FP authors who have since
> begun doing SS tables where they enjoy 'simulating' the ROM interaction. Just seems
> to me it would be nicer for them to be able to just give that to pinmame and
> concentrate on the creation of the tables. Shrug. It'll be interesting to see which
> 'side' comes to the table first and embraces this new method. The VP guys haven't
> dealt w/ 3d table creation esp. inside FP, so we'll see I suppose. Options are good.

Yeah I've noticed, and while I respect that, it seems a little silly to me. If we wanted somebody else programming a table we'd play an original FP table, not a re-creation of a classic.

It's hard enough getting the physical table built... leave the programming and game management to the professionals I say.

I wish I knew a little more about pinmame roms. I'm having trouble sleeping tonight so I was looking over the stuff at colordmd.com. I think that sort of colorization could be added to vpinmame and probably, because we have access to the game's memory and roms, it would actually be easier to colorize things. Surely graphics aren't generated on the fly and pinball roms have the equivalent of sprites right? If so it'd be a simple matter of adding a palette to the sprites and perhaps using the game state to choose the text sprite's colors.

I honestly haven't been this excited about pinball sims since the early 2000's. FP was stuck in simulations and VP was a dinosaur, making it cumbersome to even author a complex table, much less get it running correctly.



R. Belmont
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Re: What ever you do... new [Re: HowardC]
#319145 - 12/23/13 05:06 AM


> Except that this just isn't true. Mame's output system isn't platform independent...
> it's pretty much windows only, so there is no reason that pinball interfacing can't
> be treated in a similar manner. Make an input system similar to the output system
> (technically you could use the exact same method) and you are done.

Aww, dammit, I imagined writing Linux/*BSD/Mac OS X output support.

*checks*

Oh, I didn't! Hurray!

> But just for the record like 70% of the pinball games in mame are broken... I'm not
> sure why... they work in pinmame so it could be used as a guide to hook them up.
> Maybe pinmame's emulation drivers are all hacked up? Maybe it's just that nobody can
> be bothered to work on them?

PinMAME's code is really, really awful. It's so bad that even people who think MAMEdev makes up coding standards to avoid doing actual work agrees their code should be nuked from orbit.



Dullaron
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Re: What ever you do... new [Re: R. Belmont]
#319151 - 12/23/13 06:32 AM


> > Except that this just isn't true. Mame's output system isn't platform
> independent...
> > it's pretty much windows only, so there is no reason that pinball interfacing can't
> > be treated in a similar manner. Make an input system similar to the output system
> > (technically you could use the exact same method) and you are done.
>
> Aww, dammit, I imagined writing Linux/*BSD/Mac OS X output support.
>
> *checks*
>
> Oh, I didn't! Hurray!
>
> > But just for the record like 70% of the pinball games in mame are broken... I'm not
> > sure why... they work in pinmame so it could be used as a guide to hook them up.
> > Maybe pinmame's emulation drivers are all hacked up? Maybe it's just that nobody
> can
> > be bothered to work on them?
>
> PinMAME's code is really, really awful. It's so bad that even people who think
> MAMEdev makes up coding standards to avoid doing actual work agrees their code should
> be nuked from orbit.

You know. Wasting Dev time on this.



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Re: What ever you do... new [Re: HowardC]
#319152 - 12/23/13 06:46 AM


> The real reason it hasn't been done, I hate to say, is probably politics.

Stop pretending you know what the real reason is. While you back track by saying probably, you have no idea what the probability of your assertion is.



HowardC
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Re: What ever you do... new [Re: ]
#319153 - 12/23/13 07:45 AM


> > The real reason it hasn't been done, I hate to say, is probably politics.
>
> Stop pretending you know what the real reason is. While you back track by saying
> probably, you have no idea what the probability of your assertion is.

Not pretending.... such a hostile response in regards to such an innocent comment doesn't exactly help your case their chief. Anyway cheer up, Christmas time is here! Have a good one.



HowardC
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Re: What ever you do... new [Re: R. Belmont]
#319154 - 12/23/13 07:54 AM


> > Except that this just isn't true. Mame's output system isn't platform
> independent...
> > it's pretty much windows only, so there is no reason that pinball interfacing can't
> > be treated in a similar manner. Make an input system similar to the output system
> > (technically you could use the exact same method) and you are done.
>
> Aww, dammit, I imagined writing Linux/*BSD/Mac OS X output support.
>
> *checks*
>
> Oh, I didn't! Hurray!
>
> > But just for the record like 70% of the pinball games in mame are broken... I'm not
> > sure why... they work in pinmame so it could be used as a guide to hook them up.
> > Maybe pinmame's emulation drivers are all hacked up? Maybe it's just that nobody
> can
> > be bothered to work on them?
>
> PinMAME's code is really, really awful. It's so bad that even people who think
> MAMEdev makes up coding standards to avoid doing actual work agrees their code should
> be nuked from orbit.

Thanks for replying. Is it a deal with the core structure being all wonky or the individual drivers themselves, or both?

I would comment on the quality of the code, but so long as the emulation is accurate and it works... well glass houses and stones and what-not.



Anonymous
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Re: What ever you do... new [Re: HowardC]
#319160 - 12/23/13 03:46 PM


> > > The real reason it hasn't been done, I hate to say, is probably politics.
> >
> > Stop pretending you know what the real reason is. While you back track by saying
> > probably, you have no idea what the probability of your assertion is.
>
> Not pretending....

Where do you get your information about the "real reason" then?

> such a hostile response in regards to such an innocent comment
> doesn't exactly help your case their chief.

I don't have a case to answer to, I'm just trying to stop you throwing wild accusations around.



R. Belmont
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Re: What ever you do... new [Re: HowardC]
#319165 - 12/23/13 09:10 PM


> Thanks for replying. Is it a deal with the core structure being all wonky or the
> individual drivers themselves, or both?

Some of both. They made up a system of abstracting away the usual MAME innards and it got so out of control that it actually made it impossible for them to easily follow newer MAME progress. Thus they're stuck on 0.69 or whatever it is forever, and thus MAMEdev has had to basically rewrite everything PinMAME's done from scratch.

> I would comment on the quality of the code, but so long as the emulation is accurate
> and it works... well glass houses and stones and what-not.

It works, but there's a growing pile of improvements MAME has that could benefit them, like our cycle-perfect 6502 and 6809 CPU cores (and in-progress Z80 and 68000), plus improvements to sound chips and general I/O components and everything else (and eventually the netlist system for TTL pre-CPU pins). That's part of the impetus to pull those games into MAME.



DJ_Infinity
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has anyone even got this running new [Re: John IV]
#319278 - 12/27/13 12:03 AM


I have a coupla "beefy" systems and it crashes after loading. Any ideas? if not i can stick with visual pinball nine. Thanx



hotgraphics
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Re: has anyone even got this running new [Re: DJ_Infinity]
#319282 - 12/27/13 01:41 AM


Hi, have you done this step?, "The first step is to replace your current vpinmame.dll with the one present at the folder root, then launch the Setup.exe of VPinMame and install it.". If you have, you might have to try pressing the windows key (to get out of Unit3D) and clicking ok in PinMAME. Then it should be ok.


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