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Cyberonix
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Mame 162 -listxml
#340524 - 05/27/15 05:19 PM


With the new version of Mame is there a way to separate only Mame related files from Mess related files using -listxml since they two have now been combined?



TafoidAdministrator
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Cyberonix]
#340531 - 05/27/15 06:11 PM


> With the new version of Mame is there a way to separate only Mame related files from
> Mess related files using -listxml since they two have now been combined?


If you create or use the Official MAME binary - no. It is entirely everything in the source now. Former MAME and MESS are done with SUBTARGET=arcade and SUBTARGET=mess accordingly. The biggest thing to note is that all XMLs will have MAME/MACHINE (before it was MAME/GAME) in it, so that will be a small adjustment for frontends and audit programs using XML output. The best way right now is to produce a -listsource output and compare the sourcefile names to the actual SRC/MAME/DRIVERS" and "SRC/MESS/DRIVERS" names to 'split' your names in a unified MAME build.

Eventually, the concept of MAME/MESS differential will no longer be in play - it will all be MAME with the ability for those who compile to have complete control over how little or how much they include in their binaries.



DamienD
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Tafoid]
#340537 - 05/27/15 07:11 PM


Heya guys,

Probably slightly unrelated so moderators please feel free to move if appropriate.

With the latest version of Mame / MameUI I'm unable to create a DAT file in ClrMAMEPro. Receive an error:

-------------------------

An error occurred while reading information from:

C:\MAMEUI64\Mameui64.exe

You either stopped the loading process or the file is corrupt.

-------------------------

Thing is I tried running "Mameui64 -listxml" from a command prompt and all good.

Guess this is a ClrMamePro issue, anyone know how to get a DAT created or do I need to wait for a new version?



Cyberonix
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Tafoid]
#340538 - 05/27/15 07:11 PM


Ugh! Thanks for the info, Tafoid.



Roman
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: DamienD]
#340545 - 05/27/15 07:58 PM


well...the answer can be found on the cmpro messageboard



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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Roman]
#340548 - 05/27/15 08:16 PM


> well...the answer can be found on the cmpro messageboard

Yea the changes been made.



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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Tafoid]
#340549 - 05/27/15 08:17 PM


A new "systemtype" tag in the -listxml output would solve this problem. Frontends could build a games list containing arcade machines only.

From what I could see in MAME's source code (drivers), arcades games have "GAME (game details)", console/haldheld have "CONS (game details)" and computer games have "COMP (game details)".
It seems that MAME doesn't know the difference between console and handheld as they are both threated as console.

I don't know if it's easy to add to -listxml but it could be something like this:

Code:

< machine name="elevator" sourcefile="taitosj.c" systemtype="arcade" >
< machine name="a2600" sourcefile="a2600.c" systemtype="console">
< machine name="ax150" sourcefile="msx.c" systemtype="computer" >




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Cyberonix
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: CiroConsentino]
#340552 - 05/27/15 08:39 PM


That would definitely be useful.



DamienD
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Roman]
#340554 - 05/27/15 08:49 PM


Just checked it out. Thank you for the heads-up ;-)



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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: CiroConsentino]
#340566 - 05/27/15 11:24 PM


> I don't know if it's easy to add to -listxml but it could be something like this:
> < machine name="elevator" sourcefile="taitosj.c" systemtype="arcade" >
> < machine name="a2600" sourcefile="a2600.c" systemtype="console">
> < machine name="ax150" sourcefile="msx.c" systemtype="computer" >

Great Idea!



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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: CiroConsentino]
#340596 - 05/28/15 08:57 AM


Perhaps it could even be enough: "arcade" and "home" (or "MAME" andare "MESS"). Definitely would simplify the understanding.
But I am very confident that a change will be made at the official XML...



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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: AntoPISA]
#340609 - 05/28/15 02:52 PM


> Perhaps it could even be enough: "arcade" and "home" (or "MAME" andare "MESS").
> Definitely would simplify the understanding.
> But I am very confident that a change will be made at the official XML...

You're still thinking in terms of game systems. There are also things like terminals and minis emulated that don't fit for either.



Mr Ric
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: CiroConsentino]
#340734 - 05/30/15 06:57 PM


> I don't know if it's easy to add to -listxml but it could be something like this:
> < machine name="elevator" sourcefile="taitosj.c" systemtype="arcade" >
> < machine name="a2600" sourcefile="a2600.c" systemtype="console">
> < machine name="ax150" sourcefile="msx.c" systemtype="computer" >

Or how about something like...

< machine name="elevator" sourcefile="taitosj.c" isarcade="yes" >

That one entry could distinguish between MAME and MESS.



Shoegazr
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Mr Ric]
#340736 - 05/30/15 07:25 PM


> > I don't know if it's easy to add to -listxml but it could be something like this:
> > < machine name="elevator" sourcefile="taitosj.c" systemtype="arcade" >
> > < machine name="a2600" sourcefile="a2600.c" systemtype="console">
> > < machine name="ax150" sourcefile="msx.c" systemtype="computer" >
>
> Or how about something like...
>
> < machine name="elevator" sourcefile="taitosj.c" isarcade="yes" >
>
> That one entry could distinguish between MAME and MESS.

That seems ok, though I'd think something like "iscoinop" would be better than "isarcade". The "arcade" classification seems a bit odd in contrast with the others. That said, I'm wondering how stuff like gambling machines would work since that falls under coinop. I guess subcategories e.g. coinop/gambling; coinop/game; coinop/redemption might be a way to handle it, though it seems a bit messy.



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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Shoegazr]
#340737 - 05/30/15 07:35 PM


> > > I don't know if it's easy to add to -listxml but it could be something like this:
> > > < machine name="elevator" sourcefile="taitosj.c" systemtype="arcade" >
> > > < machine name="a2600" sourcefile="a2600.c" systemtype="console">
> > > < machine name="ax150" sourcefile="msx.c" systemtype="computer" >
> >
> > Or how about something like...
> >
> > < machine name="elevator" sourcefile="taitosj.c" isarcade="yes" >
> >
> > That one entry could distinguish between MAME and MESS.
>
> That seems ok, though I'd think something like "iscoinop" would be better than
> "isarcade". The "arcade" classification seems a bit odd in contrast with the others.
> That said, I'm wondering how stuff like gambling machines would work since that falls
> under coinop. I guess subcategories e.g. coinop/gambling; coinop/game;
> coinop/redemption might be a way to handle it, though it seems a bit messy.

I dunno. The whole point of merging is the put forward the idea that MAME is more than arcade - everyone seems to be trying to determine quick ways to separate the figurative wheat from the chaff much like they have done with gambling/redemption/fruit machines/pinballs.

There are front-ends with more than enough capability to use .ini lists to determine what in MAME is an arcade, computer, chess machine, calculator, or any other classification one can come up with. I'm not saying that the MAME project won't ever come up with an internal solution, but it is not in the immediate short term roadmap for the project.



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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Tafoid]
#340738 - 05/30/15 07:52 PM



Quote:


There are front-ends with more than enough capability to use .ini lists to determine what in MAME is an arcade, computer, chess machine, calculator, or any other classification one can come up with. I'm not saying that the MAME project won't ever come up with an internal solution, but it is not in the immediate short term roadmap for the project.



Yes but then we would have to create a list to separate them manually. And MAME can do this without hassle, it's already there in the source code anyway, and easily export to the -listxml output.

But I've been told to not hold by breath, that such tag will never be implemented in MAME.



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Mr Ric
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Tafoid]
#340739 - 05/30/15 07:56 PM


> There are front-ends with more than enough capability to use .ini lists to determine
> what in MAME is an arcade, computer, chess machine, calculator, or any other
> classification one can come up with.

What .ini lists have this info?



Shoegazr
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Tafoid]
#340740 - 05/30/15 08:08 PM


> I dunno. The whole point of merging is the put forward the idea that MAME is more
> than arcade - everyone seems to be trying to determine quick ways to separate the
> figurative wheat from the chaff much like they have done with
> gambling/redemption/fruit machines/pinballs.

Make no mistake - this isn't suggesting separation of "wheat from chaff", just adding further perspective on efforts to categorize all of it. Nothing is necessarily "wheat" OR "chaff"; this is purely objective.

> There are front-ends with more than enough capability to use .ini lists to determine
> what in MAME is an arcade, computer, chess machine, calculator, or any other
> classification one can come up with. I'm not saying that the MAME project won't ever
> come up with an internal solution, but it is not in the immediate short term roadmap
> for the project.

Ah, that's too bad as it's going to lead to fragmentation in ways to handle it, among other things. I'm not sure it's clear why that position was taken, it seemed like a good time to capitalize on the issue, but so be it.



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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Mr Ric]
#340742 - 05/30/15 09:31 PM


None. Someone will have to make it, and it will have to be manually updated on every MAME release... which is a bummer.



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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: CiroConsentino]
#340747 - 05/30/15 10:17 PM


> None. Someone will have to make it, and it will have to be manually updated on every
> MAME release... which is a bummer.

http://www.progettosnaps.net/MESS/pS_MESS_category.zip
That is pretty much all you need if you want to categorize the newly added stuff from MESS.



Mr Ric
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Tafoid]
#340748 - 05/30/15 11:58 PM


> http://www.progettosnaps.net/MESS/pS_MESS_category.zip
> That is pretty much all you need if you want to categorize the newly added stuff from
> MESS.

For a front-end to have to open and read through another file to create it's list of arcade drivers is going to add a lot of extra I/O and take a lot longer. Not to mention relying on the timely release of the file. Like Ciro said, it's a bummer.



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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Mr Ric]
#340749 - 05/31/15 12:14 AM


> > http://www.progettosnaps.net/MESS/pS_MESS_category.zip
> > That is pretty much all you need if you want to categorize the newly added stuff
> from
> > MESS.
>
> For a front-end to have to open and read through another file to create it's list of
> arcade drivers is going to add a lot of extra I/O and take a lot longer. Not to
> mention relying on the timely release of the file. Like Ciro said, it's a bummer.

Now that is silly.
The file I linked to is 100kb TOTAL. Let's compare that to processing and I/O for other front-end items such as the .dat files (mameinfo.dat ~14mb), history.dat ~23mb). Front-Ends already need to deal with a very large MAME XML file (nearly 180mb!!). The extra second or two of processing/compare/filtering an existing list is frankly nothing in the grand scheme of things.



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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Tafoid]
#340750 - 05/31/15 01:02 AM


WOW! This file takes care of the issue. Emu Loader can read file and filter out all non-arcade machines...
Will download it and do some testing.

Emu Loader already filter out around 1290 machines that use software lists when creating MAME games lists (all console/computer).



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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: CiroConsentino]
#340753 - 05/31/15 01:44 AM


> WOW! This file takes care of the issue. Emu Loader can read file and filter out all
> non-arcade machines...
> Will download it and do some testing.
>
> Emu Loader already filter out around 1290 machines that use software lists when
> creating MAME games lists (all console/computer).

I figured it wouldn't be too difficult and since someone takes the time to update it, you can keep things updated easily.



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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Mr Ric]
#340771 - 05/31/15 12:45 PM


> For a front-end to have to open and read through another file to create it's list of
> arcade drivers is going to add a lot of extra I/O and take a lot longer. Not to
> mention relying on the timely release of the file. Like Ciro said, it's a bummer.

Since Ciro's goal in doing so is to prevent his users from ever seeing about half the work I (and many others) have put into the combined project, it *should* incur some pain. They'll never know how good the GBA driver is now, or be able to play hap's handhelds.

That said, a 100KB file parses in about a quarter second if you aren't doing it wrong.



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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: R. Belmont]
#340772 - 05/31/15 12:54 PM


I am sure there is good reason to combine and make systems and games indistinguishable and I will always respect the ideology, politics and direction of MAME even if I don't agree with it.

Having said that, it can only be a five minute job for any coder to add another variable and I think some of the derivative builds are already starting to do it. If not I expect they will.

To comment on what RBelmont said, they are not going to see the work anyway if a utility or front end expects to see or list a MAME game. The user will just see the name of the system that won't launch or work.

Anyway, I can't see that this won't be addressed in a future release. I am sure it is not a big deal really. Probably just more of an oversight.

Cheers.
Tom.



uman
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Tafoid]
#340773 - 05/31/15 12:59 PM


Cant agree with you Tafoid, at any point.

Your solution sounds simple, but it create dependencies to third party developers, by using their cat .ini files. This wasnt needed before, it was a option and not really necessary. In your scenario now, this would be a mandatory, which is questionable. Frontend-developers would need to wait until the catlist.ini´s are published. There where problems in the past allready, with wrong formatted mamelists, where frontends stopped updating lists in the middle of the process, resulting with a bugged list.
Also there are Frontends, that use their own database, which in your scenario would become obsolete .

I dont like the whole MAME-MESS marriage at all. The day I read about the first time, I thought this would be just a optional thing, for people who compile their own MAME version and now it just turns out to be the opposite. You now need to compile your own "old fashioned" MAME, whis is a pity, sorry to say this. I dont see MESS in a state, where this whole process is reasonable.

I really dont want to bitch around here, but I would really appreciate it, if the MAME devs would reconsider their decision and if it is not better to keep this whole thing optional, as it causes all the mentioned problems and they are not small .

greets u-man



uman
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: R. Belmont]
#340774 - 05/31/15 01:07 PM


> > For a front-end to have to open and read through another file to create it's list
> of
> > arcade drivers is going to add a lot of extra I/O and take a lot longer. Not to
> > mention relying on the timely release of the file. Like Ciro said, it's a bummer.
>
> Since Ciro's goal in doing so is to prevent his users from ever seeing about half the
> work I (and many others) have put into the combined project, it *should* incur some
> pain. They'll never know how good the GBA driver is now, or be able to play hap's
> handhelds.
>
> That said, a 100KB file parses in about a quarter second if you aren't doing it
> wrong.

I really dont see the point here. Why would no one see the work, that was put into the GBA driver? Either somebody is interested in MESS or not. Why forcing and confronting people that always used only MAME?

Sorry, but i dont see, how this can be a good argument.



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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Tafoid]
#340775 - 05/31/15 01:12 PM


> > > http://www.progettosnaps.net/MESS/pS_MESS_category.zip
> > > That is pretty much all you need if you want to categorize the newly added stuff
> > from
> > > MESS.
> >
> > For a front-end to have to open and read through another file to create it's list
> of
> > arcade drivers is going to add a lot of extra I/O and take a lot longer. Not to
> > mention relying on the timely release of the file. Like Ciro said, it's a bummer.
>
> Now that is silly.
> The file I linked to is 100kb TOTAL. Let's compare that to processing and I/O for
> other front-end items such as the .dat files (mameinfo.dat ~14mb), history.dat
> ~23mb). Front-Ends already need to deal with a very large MAME XML file (nearly
> 180mb!!). The extra second or two of processing/compare/filtering an existing list is
> frankly nothing in the grand scheme of things.

From another perspective: A million people downloading and running a 100kb file is a lot of ticks and IO. Versus a 5 minute code change. Seems silly to me but not looking for an argument, I will always support MAME.



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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: uman]
#340781 - 05/31/15 02:43 PM


There is a MAME arcade compile at Emu-France website that list only arcade games. I've also uploaded them to EL's donwload page for easy access (MEGA links).



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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: R. Belmont]
#340783 - 05/31/15 02:51 PM


yes, parsing a file with 50 thousand game entries would not take more than 4 seconds.

I've just removed the softwarelist hack from my frontend. All MESS drivers are listed now. But there is no softwarelist support yet (if ever).
I just think it would be nice if MAME had a tag in -listxml output so we know if a game is arcade, console or computer. I've seen a bunch games from different machines (arcade/console/computer) with the same game name and game title (Pole Position, Pac-man, Elevator Action, to name a few).
Note that I'm not asking for this systemtype tag. This is just an observation.

Emu Loader is not built to handle software lists, and to support them I would have to rewrite 80% of the project
I would be a lot easier to create a new frontend from scratch.

I've been using UME for many months as the main MAME. I could have done this softwarelist detection hack a long time ago but I chose not to.



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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: CiroConsentino]
#340784 - 05/31/15 02:56 PM


> There is a MAME arcade compile at Emu-France website that list only arcade games.
> I've also uploaded them to EL's donwload page for easy access (MEGA links).

I think you misunderstand me. It is no problem for me to compile such a MAME version. It is a problem for all the novice/beginner people and it is no solution for frontend-developers to force their users to download and use a "special" compiled MAME version, not to mention, that you have again the depencies of third party developers, that wasnt needed before.



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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: R. Belmont]
#340788 - 05/31/15 04:36 PM


> Since Ciro's goal in doing so is to prevent his users from ever seeing about half the
> work I (and many others) have put into the combined project, it *should* incur some
> pain. They'll never know how good the GBA driver is now, or be able to play hap's
> handhelds.

...or enjoy the work many others have put into helping MAME emulate tons of other systems as good as or better than any other emu, which up until now has been all but hidden from so many. Beyond that, it's a historically-significant piece of work and to deny people a "window" to that history would be a disservice and a shame.

I would expect/hope that for every FE going in the direction of Emu Loader in short-term denial, we'll see two more adding full support for all MAME features including softwarelists. I would think a systemtype tag would help in the long run anyway - once people start understanding "wow, I can get Genesis too?" they won't want it any other way, so efforts to FE around them won't have much of an impact.



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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: R. Belmont]
#340789 - 05/31/15 05:05 PM



Quote:


Since Ciro's goal in doing so is to prevent his users from ever seeing about half the work I (and many others) have put into the combined project, it *should* incur some pain. They'll never know how good the GBA driver is now, or be able to play hap's handhelds.



That's not my goal. Emu Loader is an arcade emulators frontend and it's not just for MAME. ZiNc, Daphne, Demul, Supermodel3... that alone makes it very hard to fully support MAME+MESS.
It wasn't built for console/computer. I created another frontend called EmuCon for console/handheld/computer and MESS/UME is supported.

I think the work on MESS is amazing and everyone involved are really investing in that project. I'm not trying to undermine MESS in any way.



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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: uman]
#340791 - 05/31/15 05:45 PM


> I really dont see the point here. Why would no one see the work, that was put into
> the GBA driver? Either somebody is interested in MESS or not. Why forcing and
> confronting people that always used only MAME?

The entire point of 0.162 is that there is only MAME now, and people interested in MAME should also be interested in the former MESS stuff. I know Haze is the hero of a lot of people here, but it seems few were listening to him when he explained UME.



R. Belmont
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: uman]
#340792 - 05/31/15 05:52 PM


> I dont see MESS in a state, where this whole process is reasonable.

What state is that, in particular?



uman
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: R. Belmont]
#340796 - 05/31/15 07:07 PM


> > I dont see MESS in a state, where this whole process is reasonable.
>
> What state is that, in particular?

Well, we had that discussion a long time ago and IMHO MESS is not in a good state for many systems, i.e. including Vectrex, Amiga,C64, SNES (i know BSNES is not fluent enough ) etc. etc.

And this discussion will be pointless, because one thing, doesnt have to do with the other thing. If you really think MESS will get more attention now, you are wrong IMHO. People will have to deal with some kinda heartless MAME+MESS marriage. End users will deal with frontends, that leave them with bugs in their game-lists and developers need to do extra work just to get this all working. So at least, it will be a very bad start for this consolidation and will not make people happy from the beginning. In my case, it will just make me more hating this messy MESS thing and not the opposite.

How you did to expect more acceptance under the users, especially doing this in that manner, is really questionable? Where do you see the advantage here? It is not something, that works right out of the box and in no way rock solid or well conceived.


> ...or enjoy the work many others have put into helping MAME emulate tons of other
> systems as good as or better than any other emu, which up until now has been all but
> hidden from so many. Beyond that, it's a historically-significant piece of work and
> to deny people a "window" to that history would be a disservice and a shame.
>
> I would expect/hope that for every FE going in the direction of Emu Loader in
> short-term denial, we'll see two more adding full support for all MAME features
> including softwarelists. I would think a systemtype tag would help in the long run
> anyway - once people start understanding "wow, I can get Genesis too?" they won't
> want it any other way, so efforts to FE around them won't have much of an impact.

man, what kind of dreams do you dream here? no frontend has ever denied someone of using MESS... period.
Emu Loader, QMC2, bla bla.. i give a fuck.
Should i list here all frontends that doesnt work that way?

Same goes for the systems emulated... i will never use Vectrex, Amiga, C64 SNES with MESS, as there are better emulators, even cycle-accurate.

your "wow, I can get Genesis too?" exists allready in some frontends, so this is not some new holy grail found here and guess what, it took the developers a lot of time and work, to have that feature, which now becomes a little useless, until it can work again like it was once.

All in all, i dont see a single good argument, for this step. This is off course just my opinion, but I will not scream "hurray" here.

Edited by uman (05/31/15 07:29 PM)



Master O
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Tafoid]
#340808 - 05/31/15 10:35 PM


> > With the new version of Mame is there a way to separate only Mame related files
> from
> > Mess related files using -listxml since they two have now been combined?
>
>
> If you create or use the Official MAME binary - no. It is entirely everything in the
> source now. Former MAME and MESS are done with SUBTARGET=arcade and SUBTARGET=mess
> accordingly. The biggest thing to note is that all XMLs will have MAME/MACHINE
> (before it was MAME/GAME) in it, so that will be a small adjustment for frontends and
> audit programs using XML output. The best way right now is to produce a -listsource
> output and compare the sourcefile names to the actual SRC/MAME/DRIVERS" and
> "SRC/MESS/DRIVERS" names to 'split' your names in a unified MAME build.
>
> Eventually, the concept of MAME/MESS differential will no longer be in play - it will
> all be MAME with the ability for those who compile to have complete control over how
> little or how much they include in their binaries.

Question: Is SUBTARGET=arcade case-sensitive when Mame is compiled in Windows?



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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Master O]
#340813 - 06/01/15 12:49 AM





Vas Crabb
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: CiroConsentino]
#340814 - 06/01/15 01:14 AM


> I've just removed the softwarelist hack from my frontend. All MESS drivers are listed
> now. But there is no softwarelist support yet (if ever).
> I just think it would be nice if MAME had a tag in -listxml output so we know if a
> game is arcade, console or computer. I've seen a bunch games from different machines
> (arcade/console/computer) with the same game name and game title (Pole Position,
> Pac-man, Elevator Action, to name a few).
> Note that I'm not asking for this systemtype tag. This is just an observation.

Arcade/console/computer is a stupid categorisation. You're mixing two broad device types (console and computer) with an intended venue (arcade). There are also things that clearly don't fit either category in MAME, like printers, terminals, handheld dedicated games, etc.



Shoegazr
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: uman]
#340815 - 06/01/15 01:18 AM


> man, what kind of dreams do you dream here? no frontend has ever denied someone of
> using MESS... period.
> Emu Loader, QMC2, bla bla.. i give a fuck.
> Should i list here all frontends that doesnt work that way?

Excuse me, who do you think you are? Not only are you talking yourself in circles, but you have no idea what you're talking about to begin with.

> Same goes for the systems emulated... i will never use Vectrex, Amiga, C64 SNES with
> MESS, as there are better emulators, even cycle-accurate.

First, there is no better Vectex emulator than what is represented by the MAME driver, so you're wrong (MAME Vectrex overlays could be much better if that's what you mean, but they aren't part of the emulation). On the others you listed I'd agree with you, even documented that agreement - but to say you'll "never" use them is silly; and you are using three convenient examples to try to prove your point when you know there are many other drivers for which MAME has no real equal - and when you know there are some systems *only* emulated by MAME.

Many years ago when there were hundreds of arcade emulators about, people who didn't "get it" had a similar attitude about them vs. MAME, and couldn't see that history wouldn't be kind to any of them given basic common sense. We will see history repeat itself yet again with many non-coinop system emulators and slowly, over time, they will fall into obscurity in light of MAME. I'm glad for that, history is better for that, and I honestly don't care if you disagree with me; you will be wrong in time.

> your "wow, I can get Genesis too?" exists allready in some frontends, so this is not
> some new holy grail found here and guess what, it took the developers a lot of time
> and work, to have that feature, which now becomes a little useless, until it can work
> again like it was once.

In SOME frontends yes, which kindof proves the point I made (and that you basically missed) - namely that MAME's consolidation will lend more visibility to non-coinop systems, full stop. I appreciate a good frontend too, especially excellent ones like QMC2 which more people should be using. However, you seem to act as if MAMEdev need to play second fiddle to the frontend developers and somehow cater to THEM when the reality is the other way around, by definintion: without MAME and MAMEdev, there WOULD be no frontends.

It sounds naive after all these years of bearing witness to this kind of crap, but for all the ungrateful whining going on here I can certainly see why MAMEdev reaction is the way it is.



CiroConsentino
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#340824 - 06/01/15 02:32 AM


I see your point. I will not discuss this any further. Future Emu Loader versions will show all machines, MAME and MESS (without software lists though).

If one wants only arcade games with my frontend, there's a arcade only compile of MAME 0.162 around...



Tom Speirs
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: CiroConsentino]
#340869 - 06/01/15 07:12 PM


I don't think any of the front end developers are whining or suggesting we don't owe anything to MAME. I am certainly not. We are just pointing out our findings and passing on reports from our users.

Cheers.
Tom.



Tom Speirs
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Tom Speirs]
#340872 - 06/01/15 07:38 PM


In some ways the XML does produce some good results though for people wishing to actually play. For example that Commodore 64 TV console with included games. Not sure if it is working or not but that is a cool addition that was not there before.

However it is not an arcade machine.

Not suggesting the changes are ill thought out but from a project perspective I would kind of expect a rebranding and name change too rather than Multiple Arcade Machine Emulator. Maybe that is in the works?

By the way @Ciro - I am doing the same, filtering out stuff that has a software list and not that we can not anyway but mostly keeping everything else MESS related.



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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Tom Speirs]
#340878 - 06/01/15 10:01 PM


I'm not whining either. I don't mind having MESS machines listed in my frontend, but I can't support software lists without some serious core modifications to the frontend.

Be careful not to hide games from neogeo, stv and megaplay because they have the softwarelist tag in the -listxml output and are also used use for the multi-slot games loading.

Neo-Geo load 6 games at once, ST-V load 4 games and Sega Mega-Play load 8 games.
PlayChoice-10 should also be included but the driver is not multi-slot compatible yet.

Edited by CiroConsentino (06/01/15 10:03 PM)



Tom Speirs
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: CiroConsentino]
#340883 - 06/01/15 10:39 PM


Thanks for the heads up. I don't think the multislot stuff affects GameEx. Maybe we are talking about different things or maybe my users have not noticed or its not a feature we need.

These are my filters (what does not get listed)
Any "Machine" that has:
1. software list tag
2. Only a single device of screen
3. Anything that has different size ram.

Don't get me wrong I would much rather only have "Arcade" games just saying I am not complaining as its not my place to



CiroConsentino
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Tom Speirs]
#340884 - 06/01/15 11:34 PM


>> 2. only a single device of screen

I don't follow. You're talking about this entry ?
< device_ref name="screen" / >
if yes, don't filter it out as arcade games have this entry.

>> 3. Anything that has different size ram.
< ramoption default = "1" > 4194304 < / ramoption >

Bad idea. If I'm not mistaken, some arcade games use this tag

Edited by CiroConsentino (06/01/15 11:38 PM)



Tom Speirs
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: CiroConsentino]
#340889 - 06/01/15 11:48 PM


Its kind of the best I can do with what we have been given with 0.162. Its not possible to get perfection. GameEx is less of a manager and more of a front end experience than what you have I think. So Ill just wait for the complaints.

In regards to the device. I filtered games that only had 1 device equalling screen and no other devices. I think that is okay.

As for the RAM, you could be right. I will wait for the complaints!



Tom Speirs
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Tom Speirs]
#340890 - 06/01/15 11:59 PM


I think the stance I will take with this is to encourage people to make there own build.

I will suggest to headkaze to build into his MAME compiler.

Having said that, I don't see or understand the issue with adding a simple tag to the XML. I guess I don't get or understand the emotion or politics over such a minor change to the code but again its not for me to complain. Or maybe I have it wrong and its a huge task to code such a thing.



Vas Crabb
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Tom Speirs]
#340892 - 06/02/15 12:12 AM


> Having said that, I don't see or understand the issue with adding a simple tag to the
> XML. I guess I don't get or understand the emotion or politics over such a minor
> change to the code but again its not for me to complain. Or maybe I have it wrong and
> its a huge task to code such a thing.

The game/system macros in MAME are long overdue for an overhaul. The current distinction will likely go away when this happens, and it won't be replaced with anything similar. I've already explained why its current form is not useful.



Tom Speirs
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#340893 - 06/02/15 12:18 AM


That's are positive response right? In that things will improve?

Apologies if I don't understand as I don't follow development of MAME too much from a software engineer standpoint.



CiroConsentino
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Tom Speirs]
#340896 - 06/02/15 12:54 AM


there is a MAME arcade compile around. Only arcade games listed. I myself uploaded them to my frontend's download page. The are MEGA links.

http://emuloader.mameworld.info



Tom Speirs
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: CiroConsentino]
#340897 - 06/02/15 12:58 AM


Thanks!

I can get you proper hosting for this if you want it?

Just let me know. Ill provide you what you need to upload and allow pain free download for those who want it.

Happy for you to handle it ill just provide the hosting.



Vas Crabb
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Tom Speirs]
#340899 - 06/02/15 01:32 AM


> That's are positive response right? In that things will improve?
>
> Apologies if I don't understand as I don't follow development of MAME too much from a
> software engineer standpoint.

Things will improve in that the ridiculous macros that cause system definitions to not fit in any reasonably sized window will be replaced with something better and easier to understand. You're probably not going to get a tag telling you that a machine is or isn't a coin-operated electronic video game designed for public use.



Tom Speirs
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#340901 - 06/02/15 01:39 AM


> > That's are positive response right? In that things will improve?
> >
> > Apologies if I don't understand as I don't follow development of MAME too much from
> a
> > software engineer standpoint.
>
> Things will improve in that the ridiculous macros that cause system definitions to
> not fit in any reasonably sized window will be replaced with something better and
> easier to understand. You're probably not going to get a tag telling you that a
> machine is or isn't a coin-operated electronic video game designed for public use.

Probably not is better than not. I live in hope! I would just define it as "Arcade" but there is obviously a plan behind what appears to be madness!

I support you guys all the way. Just my opinion for what its worth and I would not say I am dumb would be to provide some extra "documentation" around what is what (what is the machine). It meets the project goal and ticks all the boxes. I would also suggest a new project name and describing the new goals of the project. Its obviously not an Arcade Emulator anymore. What exactly is it? Or maybe the two siblings MAME and MESS need a parent?



CiroConsentino
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Tom Speirs]
#340902 - 06/02/15 01:40 AM


Thanks but there's no need. MEGA is free already.
You're free to download it and upload/share anywhere you want



Vas Crabb
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Tom Speirs]
#340904 - 06/02/15 02:33 AM


> Probably not is better than not. I live in hope! I would just define it as "Arcade"
> but there is obviously a plan behind what appears to be madness!

The trouble is "arcade" is difficult to define.

Think about gambling machines. Should it include gambling machines from regions where they're legal in "arcades" (e.g. UK)? What about gambling machines from regions where they're illegal in arcades and aren't found there (e.g. Australia)? What about gambling machines from regions where they widely illegally operated in arcades (e.g. Italy)?

Also, pinball machines designed for public use would get grouped under "arcade" but that probably isn't what a lot of front-end users actually want.

Would you include note changing machines? They typically show up in arcades. But then the complementary machine, a coin counting machine that delivers a receipt or an upchanging machine that counts coins and gives notes, are usually found in banks, not arcades.

If anything does show up in the XML, it won't be an "is arcade game" flag, because that's too problematic to define.



Tom Speirs
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: CiroConsentino]
#340905 - 06/02/15 02:47 AM


> Thanks but there's no need. MEGA is free already.
> You're free to download it and upload/share anywhere you want.

No worries. Thank you for providing it and for your time.

Like I said, my stance will be to encourage folks to compile for "Arcade" for now going forward unless of course they want to emulate a console system. I expect there will also be plenty of binaries released unofficially like that too.

Unless I misunderstood something in this topic we have that option.



Tom Speirs
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#340907 - 06/02/15 02:53 AM


> > Probably not is better than not. I live in hope! I would just define it as "Arcade"
> > but there is obviously a plan behind what appears to be madness!
>
> The trouble is "arcade" is difficult to define.
>
> Think about gambling machines. Should it include gambling machines from regions where
> they're legal in "arcades" (e.g. UK)? What about gambling machines from regions where
> they're illegal in arcades and aren't found there (e.g. Australia)? What about
> gambling machines from regions where they widely illegally operated in arcades (e.g.
> Italy)?
>
> Also, pinball machines designed for public use would get grouped under "arcade" but
> that probably isn't what a lot of front-end users actually want.
>
> Would you include note changing machines? They typically show up in arcades. But then
> the complementary machine, a coin counting machine that delivers a receipt or an
> upchanging machine that counts coins and gives notes, are usually found in banks, not
> arcades.
>
> If anything does show up in the XML, it won't be an "is arcade game" flag, because
> that's too problematic to define.

I agree with you. It will be hard to define and be "clean" at the same time from one kind of perspective.

Although, my point is its a no brainer and 5 minutes to do just "arcade". If we take our monster brains out of the question it just seems silly. You can compile as Arcade but you cant list Arcade. Its just plain as day to me. Although if I want to I can easily overcomplicate it too.

I think its something that should be considered in the future to perhaps do clearly define what the machines are. It would be incredibly useful and purposeful although that's not a 5 minute job obviously. A lot of that work has been done elsewhere but I think it would be great if it was core.

Again, I have no complaints and people were given a solution in the second post of this topic.



Tom Speirs
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Tom Speirs]
#340910 - 06/02/15 03:55 AM


I just messaged with HeadKaze and he said he just updated his MAME Compiler utility to support the new target types.

I don't know if you have used or heard of his tool and there is more talk about it at BYOAC than here. Its an easier way to compile MAME and I think it will help the situation while there is only one combined official binary.

Cheers.
Tom.



B2K24
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Tom Speirs]
#340911 - 06/02/15 04:08 AM


It's not necessary to use unofficial software to compile MAME.

I find it hard to believe that there is an easier solution than to paste 1 line into cmder.exe and press the enter key :P



Tom Speirs
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: B2K24]
#340913 - 06/02/15 04:17 AM


> It's not necessary to use unofficial software to compile MAME.
>
> I find it hard to believe that there is an easier solution than to paste 1 line into
> cmder.exe and press the enter key :P

I dunno buddy, I never tried the official "easy" way

I don't even know what cmder.exe is. All I found was some kind of console emulator.



Tom Speirs
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Tom Speirs]
#340914 - 06/02/15 04:31 AM


Anyway thanks to everyone for not telling me to f*ck off or flaming me!

Its nice to see things are at there best again here.

I appreciate it.

All the best.
Tom.



joey35car
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: B2K24]
#340917 - 06/02/15 04:45 AM


> It's not necessary to use unofficial software to compile MAME.
>
> I find it hard to believe that there is an easier solution than to paste 1 line into
> cmder.exe and press the enter key :P

That's exactly what I do.

make -j5 SUBTARGET=arcade PTR64=1 TOOLS=1 STRIP_SYMBOLS=1
make -j5 SUBTARGET=mess PTR64=1 TOOLS=1 STRIP_SYMBOLS=1
make -j5 PTR64=1 TOOLS=1 STRIP_SYMBOLS=1

I use one of the above of what build I want.



Tom Speirs
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: joey35car]
#340919 - 06/02/15 05:04 AM


> > It's not necessary to use unofficial software to compile MAME.
> >
> > I find it hard to believe that there is an easier solution than to paste 1 line
> into
> > cmder.exe and press the enter key :P
>
> That's exactly what I do.
>
> make -j5 SUBTARGET=arcade PTR64=1 TOOLS=1 STRIP_SYMBOLS=1
> make -j5 SUBTARGET=mess PTR64=1 TOOLS=1 STRIP_SYMBOLS=1
> make -j5 PTR64=1 TOOLS=1 STRIP_SYMBOLS=1
>
> I use one of the above of what build I want.

I was just trying to be kind to folks who aren't so smart as us



BIOS-D
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: uman]
#340921 - 06/02/15 05:41 AM


> I think you misunderstand me. It is no problem for me to compile such a MAME version.
> It is a problem for all the novice/beginner people and it is no solution for
> frontend-developers to force their users to download and use a "special" compiled
> MAME version, not to mention, that you have again the depencies of third party
> developers, that wasnt needed before.

It's very crystal clear:

1. You're looking for excuses to hate something when things are not your way. The typical spoiled brat behavior.

2. No one forces you to use MESS drivers in the same way no one forces you to get every ROM needed for the MESS drivers to work. There isn't any performance difference between MAMEArcade and MAME+MESS, just more options. You don't go to a car manufacturer to demand a smaller gas tank because you only run your vehicle a few blocks, just simply add less gasoline.

3. You talk in representation of "novice/beginner people" who can't compile and will use anything are handed to them anyway.

4. Front-ends are made to give accessibility to specific program versions. They're not called in-betweens because the dependency is from the program itself they want to front-end, not the other way around.

5. Third party development is always needed. ClrMAME needs to update constantly, MinGW too. A front-end is third party software. Again, pure spoiled brat excuses.



MooglyGuy
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: uman]
#340933 - 06/02/15 08:38 AM


> Either somebody is interested in MESS or not.

Wrong. There is also a third category, the biggest category, people who know of MAME but have never even heard of MESS. Having the two projects merged neatly solves that problem. More visibility for MESS, or even MAME, is never a bad thing, because it inherently attracts more developers to the project. Don't believe me? Look through the most recent whatsnew.txt files at all of the people who have suddenly popped up and started contributing since MAME switched to being hosted at Github.



uman
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Shoegazr]
#340937 - 06/02/15 12:16 PM



> Excuse me, who do you think you are? Not only are you talking yourself in circles,
> but you have no idea what you're talking about to begin with.
>
> > Same goes for the systems emulated... i will never use Vectrex, Amiga, C64 SNES
> with
> > MESS, as there are better emulators, even cycle-accurate.
>
> First, there is no better Vectex emulator than what is represented by the MAME
> driver, so you're wrong (MAME Vectrex overlays could be much better if that's what
> you mean, but they aren't part of the emulation). On the others you listed I'd agree
> with you, even documented that agreement - but to say you'll "never" use them is
> silly; and you are using three convenient examples to try to prove your point when
> you know there are many other drivers for which MAME has no real equal - and when you
> know there are some systems *only* emulated by MAME.
>
> Many years ago when there were hundreds of arcade emulators about, people who didn't
> "get it" had a similar attitude about them vs. MAME, and couldn't see that history
> wouldn't be kind to any of them given basic common sense. We will see history repeat
> itself yet again with many non-coinop system emulators and slowly, over time, they
> will fall into obscurity in light of MAME. I'm glad for that, history is better for
> that, and I honestly don't care if you disagree with me; you will be wrong in time.
>
> > your "wow, I can get Genesis too?" exists allready in some frontends, so this is
> not
> > some new holy grail found here and guess what, it took the developers a lot of time
> > and work, to have that feature, which now becomes a little useless, until it can
> work
> > again like it was once.
>
> In SOME frontends yes, which kindof proves the point I made (and that you basically
> missed) - namely that MAME's consolidation will lend more visibility to non-coinop
> systems, full stop. I appreciate a good frontend too, especially excellent ones like
> QMC2 which more people should be using. However, you seem to act as if MAMEdev need
> to play second fiddle to the frontend developers and somehow cater to THEM when the
> reality is the other way around, by definintion: without MAME and MAMEdev, there
> WOULD be no frontends.
>
> It sounds naive after all these years of bearing witness to this kind of crap, but
> for all the ungrateful whining going on here I can certainly see why MAMEdev reaction
> is the way it is.

Ok.. first, i dont want to heat up this discussion to a point, where no one listens to what somebody else has to say.

I will start with Vectrex, as ParaJVE is the best emulator for Vectrex: http://vectrex-emu.blogspot.de/

Maybe you are right, if you look at accuracy, cant test it, as i am not at home to compare it with my real Vectrex.
But there are more things to consider, especially the look and feel, this is where ParaJVE shines. It has one of the best vector shaders I have seen, a thing that i am missing in MAME or MESS in general. I am on it to change this and it will be for sure the next big thing i want to deliver to MAME.

Off course I understand the whole MAME dev philosophy thing behind it, but saying that i.e. overlays are not important (MAME Vectrex overlays could be much better if that's what you mean, but they aren't part of the emulation), is simply not true, it is just not as important as i.e. accuracy. This case is especially true, if it comes to Vectrex and the same goes for the look and feel of the presentation of Vectors in general.

Like i said, i cant compare the accuracy of MESS, ParaJVE and a real Vectrex at the moment, but I never felt that ParaJVE did the job wrong and I own a real Vectrex and because of these facts, i can safely say, that the MESS emulation is miles away from competing against ParaJVE, which stopped development 4 years ago and it stopped not because there was no interest, it stopped because it reached a point of perfection, where the developer thought "its far enough".

This brings me to the next thing:

We will see history repeat itself yet again with many non-coinop system emulators and slowly, over time, they will fall into obscurity in light of MAME. I'm glad for that, history is better for that, and I honestly don't care if you disagree with me; you will be wrong in time.

But you could look at this statement just the opposite way.... MAME+MESS merged, to bring more attention to non-arcade-emulation that is far away from comparing to similar emulation, that existed for years. The attention brings ,"so to say", people to make maybe a wrong decision. In case of Vectrex to a emulation that is not in a nice and "true" gaming experience state.
Every single person that i send a link to ParaJVE didnt regret it and used it as their main emulator.
Evil said, MAME+MESS will help to forget about the "better emulators" and will create a new "standard", that puts better alternatives into forgottenness .

Off course, I admit that MESS also contains examples that are outstanding. I just wanted to show a different view. There is also the thing with the lazyness of people. MESS is considered by many as a "One that rules them all" solution. Especially these people, will maybe never experience a better alternative. So MAME+MESS can become a twosided-sword, even if i clearly see the "in the long run" term and agree with it.

The frontends: I think my definition for it, differs from yours. QMC2 is for me a advanced GUI for MAME. It is not cab-friendly and it is MAME (+MESS) exclusive only.
IMHO not excellent enough. I cant tell about any exclusive feature that QMC2 has.... seems pretty basic to me.

Updates: Meanwhile MAME has a frequent update circle. A thing that devolopers need to deal with. It is work that needs no blaming to anyone. But the approach with the merge of MAME and MESS is heavy.
If it had be introduced with small steps, i.e. starting with the option that you can only compile yourself such a version, developers would have time to look into it and have the time to react for further upcoming things. At least many companys are doing it that way. This would be a fair approach and it would help more to guarantee a succesfull start, as the fontends would be working properly .
Instead of working together, we are flaming here. We dont need a second fiddle definition, we need teamwork and treating each other with some respect. It shouldnt be "eat or die". I am for sure, not a person who is only whining and bitching, i am more in a search for reasonable arguments to deal with. Where ever i can, i try to help MAME being the ultimate experience. I had and will have projects focusing on that.

> It's very crystal clear:
>
> 1. You're looking for excuses to hate something when things are not your way. The
> typical spoiled brat behavior.

Not true, just have other thoughts about the whole thing (see above) . A forum that doesnt accept other thoughts... well .

> 2. No one forces you to use MESS drivers in the same way no one forces you to get
> every ROM needed for the MESS drivers to work. There isn't any performance difference
> between MAMEArcade and MAME+MESS, just more options. You don't go to a car
> manufacturer to demand a smaller gas tank because you only run your vehicle a few
> blocks, just simply add less gasoline.

All of this, is not important to me (see above) . If attention was intended (the only agument of you all), then the MAME devs could have it done better.

> 3. You talk in representation of "novice/beginner people" who can't compile and will
> use anything are handed to them anyway.

(see above)

> 4. Front-ends are made to give accessibility to specific program versions. They're
> not called in-betweens because the dependency is from the program itself they want to
> front-end, not the other way around.

True, but the merge now introduced way more dependencies. The developers are not only dependent on MAME itself anymore and additional sources/steps are now needed, with no benefit at all. More work that is less productive.

> 5. Third party development is always needed. ClrMAME needs to update constantly,
> MinGW too. A front-end is third party software.

True, but from a developer point of view, you should always try to be as independent as possible. ClrMAME is not a frontend, or a necessary tool for creating one and more important it just has one purpose. It doesnt need to deal with other world-of-emulation-news. It is not a fair comparison, i.e. to GameEx, that must deal with many other factors.
And MinGW well... it is kinda the heart of MAME.

> Wrong. There is also a third category, the biggest category, people who know of MAME
> but have never even heard of MESS. Having the two projects merged neatly solves that
> problem. More visibility for MESS, or even MAME, is never a bad thing, because it
> inherently attracts more developers to the project. Don't believe me? Look through
> the most recent whatsnew.txt files at all of the people who have suddenly popped up
> and started contributing since MAME switched to being hosted at Github.

see above.



R. Belmont
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: uman]
#340961 - 06/02/15 05:26 PM


> It has one of the best vector shaders I have seen, a thing that i am
> missing in MAME or MESS in general.

I think Jezze can fix this :-)

And we *do* feel that the overlays are important (I own a working hardware Vectrex, I'm fully aware of the difference those make), it's just a matter of finding someone who can bring them up to modern MAME standards where all the artwork is scanned at 3000 DPI or so. (I have like 2 overlays and one of them isn't in great condition, so I can't do it).

> The frontends: I think my definition for it, differs from yours. QMC2 is for me a
> advanced GUI for MAME. It is not cab-friendly and it is MAME (+MESS) exclusive only.
> IMHO not excellent enough. I cant tell about any exclusive feature that QMC2 has....
> seems pretty basic to me.

QMC2 is the only frontend that exposes all of the power of MAME/MESS. For example, you can place arbitrary emulated cards into the slots of an Apple II or PC or 68030 Mac. This is something of a hassle from the command line (to put it mildly), but in QMC2 it's dead easy.

QMC2 *does* have a simplified cabinet mode where you can control it with joysticks and theme it however you'd like, by the way. The default theme it comes with was user-submitted even.

> If it had be introduced with small steps, i.e. starting with the option that you can
> only compile yourself such a version, developers would have time to look into it and
> have the time to react for further upcoming things. At least many companys are doing
> it that way. This would be a fair approach and it would help more to guarantee a
> succesfull start, as the fontends would be working properly .

We tried that, exactly how you describe. UME was a non-default option in MAME for 3+ years, with a very prominent dev (Haze) advocating for it loudly (and providing canned binaries that frontend authors could test with). Only QMC2 added full support for it, as far as I'm aware. I'm not entirely sure why; playing console and even computer games on MAME cabinets is not exactly a fringe activity.

So while I'm sorry the FEs are now in a bad place, it's not like they didn't have a lot of time in advance to get ready.



R. Belmont
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Tom Speirs]
#340962 - 06/02/15 05:44 PM


> I would also suggest a new project name and describing the new goals of the
> project. Its obviously not an Arcade Emulator anymore.

The "MAME" branding has significant value that we're in no hurry to get rid of; we officially define it as "not an acronym" now. Like KFC



R. Belmont
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Tom Speirs]
#340963 - 06/02/15 05:50 PM


> Like I said, my stance will be to encourage folks to compile for "Arcade" for now
> going forward unless of course they want to emulate a console system. I expect there
> will also be plenty of binaries released unofficially like that too.

I'm surprised you're taking this position. Playing console and computer games in MAME cabinets is quite a popular pursuit in and of itself, which is why many FEs already support launching other emulators besides MAME. Given that, it shouldn't be a huge deal to support MAME as one of those emulators.

As Haze and I have spitballed, the first FE that has QMC2's power and MAMEUI's idiot-proofness will take over the world, and potentially make someone some good money.



MooglyGuy
Renegade MAME Dev
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Posts: 1676
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: R. Belmont]
#340966 - 06/02/15 06:15 PM


> > It has one of the best vector shaders I have seen, a thing that i am
> > missing in MAME or MESS in general.
>
> I think Jezze can fix this :-)
>
> And we *do* feel that the overlays are important (I own a working hardware Vectrex,
> I'm fully aware of the difference those make), it's just a matter of finding someone
> who can bring them up to modern MAME standards where all the artwork is scanned at
> 3000 DPI or so. (I have like 2 overlays and one of them isn't in great condition, so
> I can't do it).
>
> > The frontends: I think my definition for it, differs from yours. QMC2 is for me a
> > advanced GUI for MAME. It is not cab-friendly and it is MAME (+MESS) exclusive
> only.
> > IMHO not excellent enough. I cant tell about any exclusive feature that QMC2
> has....
> > seems pretty basic to me.
>
> QMC2 is the only frontend that exposes all of the power of MAME/MESS. For example,
> you can place arbitrary emulated cards into the slots of an Apple II or PC or 68030
> Mac. This is something of a hassle from the command line (to put it mildly), but in
> QMC2 it's dead easy.
>
> QMC2 *does* have a simplified cabinet mode where you can control it with joysticks
> and theme it however you'd like, by the way. The default theme it comes with was
> user-submitted even.
>
> > If it had be introduced with small steps, i.e. starting with the option that you
> can
> > only compile yourself such a version, developers would have time to look into it
> and
> > have the time to react for further upcoming things. At least many companys are
> doing
> > it that way. This would be a fair approach and it would help more to guarantee a
> > succesfull start, as the fontends would be working properly .
>
> We tried that, exactly how you describe. UME was a non-default option in MAME for 3+
> years, with a very prominent dev (Haze) advocating for it loudly (and providing
> canned binaries that frontend authors could test with). Only QMC2 added full support
> for it, as far as I'm aware. I'm not entirely sure why; playing console and even
> computer games on MAME cabinets is not exactly a fringe activity.
>
> So while I'm sorry the FEs are now in a bad place, it's not like they didn't have a
> lot of time in advance to get ready.




CiroConsentino
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: R. Belmont]
#340970 - 06/02/15 07:53 PM



Quote:


QMC2 is the only frontend that exposes all of the power of MAME/MESS. For example, you can place arbitrary emulated cards into the slots of an Apple II or PC or 68030 Mac. This is something of a hassle from the command line (to put it mildly), but in QMC2 it's dead easy.



... place arbitrary cards into slots of Apple II, PC, 68030 Mac. Can you give an example ?

Quote:


So while I'm sorry the FEs are now in a bad place, it's not like they didn't have a lot of time in advance to get ready.



I've been using UME for many many months now. I could have included support for MESS in Emu Loader's last major rewrite, but I decided to keep it arcades only, even though UME was already available. I guess I really made a bad choice.

I could try to modify EL's core to support MESS machines, but it will not be 100% due to the way my frontend is coded (MAME + ZiNc + Daphne + Demul, etc...
The biggest problem is multi-floppy games for computers and find an easy way to handle software lists for multiple machines of the same family.

Family ? MSX have tons of different machines but they all use the same software lists. And so does Commodore Amiga, Atari 800.
This is one thing I'm struggling to categorize.
Create only one MSX category with a bunch of MSX machines. Same for Amiga, Atari 800, Atari 2600, MSX 2, Super Nintendo, etc...
This would have to be done manually by me. Possibly by creating a .ini file listing all machines for each family. I don't know how often MESS machines change names or new ones are added...
[MSX]
expert11
ax150
bruc100

[Amiga]
a1000
a1200

...and so on.



R. Belmont
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: CiroConsentino]
#340971 - 06/02/15 08:24 PM


> ... place arbitrary cards into slots of Apple II, PC, 86030 Mac. Can you give an
> example ?

Sure. Run mame apple2p -listslots. You'll see a list showing 8 slots, sl0 to sl7, of what cards are available for each slot, and what card is installed in that slot by default (if there is one). On the command line, you do -{slotname} {cardname}, so for instance "-sl3 videoterm" would put the "Videoterm" 80 column card into slot 3. This in turn will cause a second screen to attach to the driver and show the 80-column output when something activates it.

If you try the same -listslots on e.g. ibm5160 or at486 you'll see options for familiar ISA cards like the Sound Blaster and AdLib.

The one thing that's tricky about this is that slot devices can have their own slot connectors on them (e.g. the Sonic and Knuckles cartridge for the Sega Genesis/Megadrive famously has "lock-on"), so once you've added a card to a slot, you must call MAME with -listslots again to see if anything new has happened. We don't know in advance when something is going to add a card (this is equally a problem for the built-in GUI).

Many consoles implement their controllers through this system, so for instance -listslots on the PSX driver will show player 1 and player 2 slots, with options for the stock controller, the analog controller, the DualShock, and other favorites. It's therefore worth implementing this feature even when it's not for computers.

> I could try to modify EL's core to support MESS machines, but it will not be 100% due
> to the way my frontend is coded (MAME + ZiNc + Daphne + Demul, etc...
> The biggest problem is multi-floppy games for computers and find an easy way to
> handle software lists for multiple machines of the same family.

Understood. It's been new concepts for us as we've added them too, and etabeta can tell you many stories about having MAME's built-in GUI attempt to handle all of this stuff

> Family ? MSX have tons of different machines but they all use the same software
> lists. And so does Commodore Amiga, Atari 800.
> This is one thing I'm struggling to categorize.

I agree that family would be an interesting tag. We have a "compatible" tag for the COMP() and CONS() macros, I don't know if that information makes it out into the XML or not.



Tom Speirs
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Posts: 129
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: R. Belmont]
#340977 - 06/02/15 09:44 PM


> > Like I said, my stance will be to encourage folks to compile for "Arcade" for now
> > going forward unless of course they want to emulate a console system. I expect
> there
> > will also be plenty of binaries released unofficially like that too.
>
> I'm surprised you're taking this position. Playing console and computer games in MAME
> cabinets is quite a popular pursuit in and of itself, which is why many FEs already
> support launching other emulators besides MAME. Given that, it shouldn't be a huge
> deal to support MAME as one of those emulators.
>
> As Haze and I have spitballed, the first FE that has QMC2's power and MAMEUI's
> idiot-proofness will take over the world, and potentially make someone some good
> money.
I think you may misunderstand. We do already do that. Its not about not supporting MESS. I already do that. Many people run it for consoles, including me. Its just about separating the two in the front end. Its just a design/schematics thing really. That's my point all along. So we can list say arcade games and say Atari 2600 separately in the front end. So that's why I don't get it. I am all for promoting mess and I actually use and support it. It just causes a problem from a front end perspective that I cant separate console from arcade while still supporting and allowing the two.

It seems you are trying to support and encourage use of MESS (which I am all for) by providing technical issues whereas youd be much better leaving promotion up to the less technical more sales savvy people among us.

Just to address though the only reason I would suggest people to compile is so I can "differentiate" between Arcade and Console. Its not so I only have Arcade. Far from it.

In my opinion MESS is superior to any other console emulator apart from on the quality of the emulation itself on some systems. Its already won me over I am not in agreement with others who think otherwise.

Anyway, thanks for replying, I appreciate it. Thanks for all your great work too. I appreciate it more than you realise. I love Xevious 3D.



B2K24
MAME @ 15 kHz Sony Trinitron CRT user
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Tom Speirs]
#340980 - 06/02/15 09:54 PM


> I think you misunderstand. We do already do that. Its not about not supporting MESS.
> I already do that. Many people run it for consoles, including ne. Its just about
> separating the two in the front end. Its just a design/schematics thing really.
> That's my point all along. So we can list say arcade games and say Atari 2600
> separately in the front end. So that's why I don't get it. I am all for promoting
> mess and I actually use and support it. It just causes a problem from a front end
> perspective that I cant separate console from arcade while still supporting and
> allowing the two.

If you can come up with some kind of software lists category where it displays all the machines that have corresponding software lists in one window (similar to how MAME CHDs Games works)

Once you pick a machine if it can generate the game listing from the appropriate XML file. I will be in Heaven



Tom Speirs
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: B2K24]
#340985 - 06/02/15 10:17 PM


> > I think you misunderstand. We do already do that. Its not about not supporting
> MESS.
> > I already do that. Many people run it for consoles, including ne. Its just about
> > separating the two in the front end. Its just a design/schematics thing really.
> > That's my point all along. So we can list say arcade games and say Atari 2600
> > separately in the front end. So that's why I don't get it. I am all for promoting
> > mess and I actually use and support it. It just causes a problem from a front end
> > perspective that I cant separate console from arcade while still supporting and
> > allowing the two.
>
> If you can come up with some kind of software lists category where it displays all
> the machines that have corresponding software lists in one window (similar to how
> MAME CHDs Games works)
>
> Once you pick a machine if it can generate the game listing from the appropriate XML
> file. I will be in Heaven

I'm all for that and the new build has a lot of potential for something like that. I would still like to know what the machine actually is though!



Tom Speirs
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Tom Speirs]
#340988 - 06/02/15 10:50 PM


I think if you were looking for people to take notice it worked in my case

I do see a lot of potential with the combined build.

I will stick to my guns though and say we do need some more definition around machine "types".

Cheers.
Tom.



etabeta
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: R. Belmont]
#340991 - 06/02/15 11:52 PM


> The one thing that's tricky about this is that slot devices can have their own slot
> connectors on them (e.g. the Sonic and Knuckles cartridge for the Sega
> Genesis/Megadrive famously has "lock-on"), so once you've added a card to a slot, you
> must call MAME with -listslots again to see if anything new has happened. We don't
> know in advance when something is going to add a card (this is equally a problem for
> the built-in GUI).

for Genesis/MegaDrive, though, the slot options are not user-configurable and are setup internally when you load the appropriate file in the first cartslot.
in this case you can detect the new subslot which appears when you load the Sonic & Knuckles cart or the Game Genie cart, by parsing the output of -listmedia (base console has only -cart, while console with sk or ggenie mounted also has a -cart2)

basically anytime you select an option or a media you have to re-parse -listslots and -listmedia to update the configurations
or, even better, parse the -lx output in search of <device> and <slot> entries (stopping at the end of the first <machine> block, otherwise you would also parse the optional device and you'd get several unneeded entries).

an example: compare the following snippet of the output of "mame genesis -lx"

Code:

<device type="cartridge" tag="mdslot" mandatory="1" interface="megadriv_cart">
<instance name="cartridge" briefname="cart"/>
<extension name="smd"/>
<extension name="bin"/>
<extension name="md"/>
<extension name="gen"/>
</device>


with the output of "mame genesis -cart sk -lx"

Code:

<device type="cartridge" tag="mdslot" mandatory="1" interface="megadriv_cart">
<instance name="cartridge1" briefname="cart1"/>
<extension name="smd"/>
<extension name="bin"/>
<extension name="md"/>
<extension name="gen"/>
</device>
<device type="cartridge" tag="mdslot:rom_sk:subslot" interface="megadriv_cart">
<instance name="cartridge2" briefname="cart2"/>
<extension name="smd"/>
<extension name="bin"/>
<extension name="md"/>
<extension name="gen"/>
</device>


you see that the presence of the specific "sk" cart has made appear a second cart slot.
of course the "instance" parameters are the command line option that are available for that specific configuration (-cart1 and -cart2 in the second case, but emulation acknowledge also -cart and -cart2)

another example: compare the following small piece of output for "mame ibm5150 -lx"

Code:

<slot name="isa1">
<slotoption name="mda" devname="isa_ibm_mda"/>
[...]
<slotoption name="sblaster1_0" devname="isa_sblaster1_0"/>
<slotoption name="sblaster1_5" devname="isa_sblaster1_5"/>
[...]
<slotoption name="pds" devname="isa_pds"/>
</slot>
<slot name="isa2">
[...]


with the following one corresponding to "mame ibm5150 -isa1 sblaster1_0 -lx"

Code:

<slot name="isa1">
<slotoption name="mda" devname="isa_ibm_mda"/>
[...]
<slotoption name="sblaster1_0" devname="isa_sblaster1_0"/>
<slotoption name="sblaster1_5" devname="isa_sblaster1_5"/>
[...]
<slotoption name="pds" devname="isa_pds"/>
</slot>
<slot name="isa1:sblaster1_0:pc_joy">
<slotoption name="basic_joy" devname="basic_joy" default="yes"/>
<slotoption name="mssw_pad" devname="mssw_pad"/>
</slot>
<slot name="isa1:sblaster1_0:mdin">
<slotoption name="midiin" devname="midiin_port" default="yes"/>
</slot>
<slot name="isa1:sblaster1_0:mdout">
<slotoption name="midiout" devname="midiout_port" default="yes"/>
</slot>
<slot name="isa2">
[...]


as you can see, having selected a soundblaster card in -isa1, you now have a MIDI In port, a MIDI out port and a new "-isa1:sblaster1_0:pc_joy" slot option that accepts the values "" (for empty port), "basic_joy" (for a basic joystick) and "mssw_pad" (for a MS Sidewinder joy). none of these were available in the original configuration because there was nothing mounted in the ISA1 slot

feel free to ask for further info if you need them



Shoegazr
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: uman]
#341000 - 06/03/15 02:39 AM


> Ok.. first, i dont want to heat up this discussion to a point, where no one listens
> to what somebody else has to say.

Fair enough, I'm all for civil discourse, but do understand that when you come in out of the blue, all guns blazing with profanities as you did, you can expect to be put in your place. I don't take kindly to that; you wouldn't either. Now then, irate mode off.

> Maybe you are right, if you look at accuracy, cant test it, as i am not at home to
> compare it with my real Vectrex.

Well, accuracy is precisely the best measure. Understand that it is difficult to be objective when comparing emulators; it's a sliding scale where you have to carefully balance accuracy as the main metric against lots of other criteria that factor in to varying but lesser degrees. Usually accuracy wins, though in rare cases, especially when it's a close call, it doesn't. It's not as cut-and-dried as you might initially believe.

> But there are more things to consider, especially the look and feel, this is where
> ParaJVE shines. It has one of the best vector shaders I have seen, a thing that i am
> missing in MAME or MESS in general. I am on it to change this and it will be for sure
> the next big thing i want to deliver to MAME.

I'll agree that vector shaders are interesting diversions and can improve the end-user experience (though MAME's shaders are pretty damn good these days and getting better), but they certainly don't tip the scale in favor of ParaJVE. Even with accuracy aside, MAME's long-term survivability alone factors in heavily - ParaJVE is rotting, it hasn't been updated in half a decade and will eventually stop running on future platforms that are not compatibile with its underlying input/output/video/etc. requirements. We saw this happen even faster than *I* had thought with standalone arcade emulators - go try running one of the many that were designed for Windows 98 in Windows 8 and tell me how that works out for you. In contrast, MAME sees heaps of updates every day, many of them specifically designed to increase compatibility with modern operating systems, and isn't going away anytime soon.

> Off course I understand the whole MAME dev philosophy thing behind it, but saying
> that i.e. overlays are not important (MAME Vectrex overlays could be much better if
> that's what you mean, but they aren't part of the emulation), is simply not true, it
> is just not as important as i.e. accuracy. This case is especially true, if it comes
> to Vectrex and the same goes for the look and feel of the presentation of Vectors in
> general.

Sorry, but overlays are NOT as important. For one, scanning in a set of overlays takes some effort, but not nearly the talent required to emulate the system itself, which is far more scarce. Looking at it another way, you can certainly approximate the Vectrex experience without overlays; but if ALL you had was overlays without any games? Yeah. And MAME DOES have overlays, just not good ones. That will be fixed in time I'm sure - it just takes someone willing to do it.

> Like i said, i cant compare the accuracy of MESS, ParaJVE and a real Vectrex at the
> moment, but I never felt that ParaJVE did the job wrong and I own a real Vectrex and
> because of these facts, i can safely say, that the MESS emulation is miles away from
> competing against ParaJVE, which stopped development 4 years ago and it stopped not
> because there was no interest, it stopped because it reached a point of perfection,
> where the developer thought "its far enough".

And that's exactly why ParaJVE is a bad emulator to put any faith in at all. Perhaps it's an interesting curiosity/toy (though I'd still prefer to use MAME with its suboptimal overlays), but certainly not anything to be taken seriously for historical purposes. And that reminds me - it sounds like you haven't even TRIED MAME's vectrex driver because you wouldn't be saying half the things you are otherwise.

> But you could look at this statement just the opposite way.... MAME+MESS merged, to
> bring more attention to non-arcade-emulation that is far away from comparing to
> similar emulation, that existed for years. The attention brings ,"so to say", people
> to make maybe a wrong decision.

...which is why MAME isn't the best choice for ALL systems, just for MANY of them. Obviously there are systems like certain IBM Mainframes, the PS2 etc. that MAME doesn't emulate at all, so if you have any interest in those systems you need to look elsewhere. Likewise for systems like the Dreamcast that won't be emulated to any usable level in MAME for probably many, many years to come - so again you need to look elsewhere. But for Vectrex? Nah.

> Every single person that i send a link to ParaJVE didnt regret it and used it as
> their main emulator.

I can't stop you, but you are doing both those people and history a disservice.

> Off course, I admit that MESS also contains examples that are outstanding. I just
> wanted to show a different view. There is also the thing with the lazyness of people.
> MESS is considered by many as a "One that rules them all" solution. Especially these
> people, will maybe never experience a better alternative. So MAME+MESS can become a
> twosided-sword, even if i clearly see the "in the long run" term and agree with it.

Indeed one of MAME's greatest strengths, and one that has helped it survive all these years while so many others are long-forgotten, is precisely that it's "one emulator to rule them all" - but not for reasons you cite. This approach wins primarily because it consolidates knowledge into a single area, easily-accessible by developers and users alike. And as MAME itself has proven countless times in the past, it's the ONLY approach that matters in the end. Ironically, part of the reason is due to the "emulation experience" being far less important than the "system experience" yielded by the target platforms. Features designed for the end-user like rewind support, shaders, "cool GUIs" etc. are historically meaningless when compared to the accurate, long-term preservation of the system itself.

> The frontends: I think my definition for it, differs from yours. QMC2 is for me a
> advanced GUI for MAME. It is not cab-friendly and it is MAME (+MESS) exclusive only.
> IMHO not excellent enough. I cant tell about any exclusive feature that QMC2 has....
> seems pretty basic to me.

Sorry, but you're wrong. QMC2 is the most advanced GUI for MAME specifically because it supports the entire feature-set of both MAME and the erstwhile MESS which no other FE has been able to do. And at least in my opinion, it is elegant and well-written software by someone who knows what they're doing. It also has a cabinet mode if that's your thing, though if you have a trackball on your cabinet, your cab. monitor supports a decent resolution, and you configure hotkeys in an optimal way, you can use the regular GUI just fine on a cabinet. That's the way I do it - it works well for me and I get all the advantages of the main GUI without having to downshift to a separate "cabinet mode".

> Updates: Meanwhile MAME has a frequent update circle. A thing that devolopers need to
> deal with. It is work that needs no blaming to anyone. But the approach with the
> merge of MAME and MESS is heavy.
> If it had be introduced with small steps, i.e. starting with the option that you can
> only compile yourself such a version, developers would have time to look into it and
> have the time to react for further upcoming things. At least many companys are doing
> it that way. This would be a fair approach and it would help more to guarantee a
> succesfull start, as the fontends would be working properly .

First, why are you comparing MAME to "companys" (sic)? Second, the approach with the merge was far from "heavy" - UME has been around for years now so people have had fair warning there, and if you still consider it "heavy", well I hate to say it, but too bad. It's free software, written by people who love to emulate stuff with the goal of preserving history first and foremost, which is obviously going to exhibit characteristics quite different from that of the typical commercial enterprise. So yeah, get over it.



CiroConsentino
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: R. Belmont]
#341001 - 06/03/15 02:39 AM


Thanks for the apple2 usage tip. Another huge reply, sorry.

>> I agree that family would be an interesting tag. We have a "compatible" tag for the
>> COMP() and CONS() macros, I don't know if that information makes it out into
>> the XML or >> not.
Huh, now that you mentioned the compatible tag, I think it does.

in the machine "a2600" (Atari 2600 NTSC) there this entry (-listxml):

< softwarelist name="a2600" status="original" filter="NTSC" / >

in the a2600p (Atari 2600 PAL) machine there's this entry (-listxml:

< softwarelist name="a2600" status="original" filter="PAL" / >

and in the atari2600.xml software list, some games have this entry:

< sharedfeat name="compatibility" value="PAL" / >

It probably means that these game are only compatible with the PAL version of Atari 2600. ?

and other games have this entry:

< sharedfeat name="compatibility" value="NTSC" / >

safe to say those games are only compatible with the Atari 2600 NTSC.

Some games don't have the compatiblity tag. Probably they can be used by any Atari 2600 machine.
Still need to check more gamaes and other machines like Amiga, MSX, Atari 800, Super Nintendo, Master System, etc...

I hope I'm right about this.



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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: etabeta]
#341002 - 06/03/15 02:44 AM


Thanks for the details. Complex stuff. I think I'll start a new file to list all these things about MESS until I understand things better. Yes I'm new to MESS, much more complex than MAME.



Tom Speirs
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Tom Speirs]
#341008 - 06/03/15 06:28 AM


Perhaps a screenshot of my "multiple emulator" front end GameEx will shed some light on the dilemma. Please just take this is an example. It's not about me.

1. I don't have the option of forcing everyone to only use MAME. I need to support all Emulators. If I only supported MAME and MESS and this was a different kind of product there would be no issue as I would integrate everything. Which by the way as mentioned, would be a killer front end but I don't have that option right now. I agree its certainly worth exploring though.
2. You can see in the screenshot the front end is using both MAME (Arcade) and MESS.
3. No disagreement from me on how awesome MAME (Arcade) and MESS are and no lack of support in GameEx either. Also, no complaints on having a combined build. I think its a good idea. For me personally its renewed my passion for MAME. It's exciting times.
4. At worst, all that happens with official 0.162 is folks see a few extra entries in the list. Most are filtered out. If not folks can just press "delete".
5. So the end result is it encourages people not to use the official build.
6. I would like to use Software lists for consoles in the future and as things are it means two separate builds of the same code are required.
7. I am just trying to help and am being a little OC. Its no big deal and I have no complaints.




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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: CiroConsentino]
#341010 - 06/03/15 07:20 AM


> Some games don't have the compatiblity tag. Probably they can be used by any Atari
> 2600 machine.
> Still need to check more gamaes and other machines like Amiga, MSX, Atari 800, Super
> Nintendo, Master System, etc...
>
> I hope I'm right about this.

the compatibility flag is not an easy concept because it is a compromise between being as user friendly as we can with non-expert users and being flexible enough to satisfy more expert users. E.g. if you launch a2600 emulation with a game that has NTSC or no compatibility flags the games load and run with no issues, both if you run it as "mame a2600 gamename" and as "mame a2600 -cart gamename". if you do the same with a game that only has PAL compatibility then mame will have two different behaviors depending on the command line options

* expert usage: if you launch emulation with "mame a2600 -cart gamename" and gamename has PAL compatibility, the emulator gives you a warning at command line but it launches anyway the game, because it assumes that you are experienced enough to understand that if you get a black screen at start the cause is related to the warning you have been exposed to
* noob usage: if you launch emulation with "mame a2600 gamename" (without the -cart switch) and gamename has PAL compatibility, the emulator assumes you are just here to play and thus refuses to load the game (mame actually *filters out* the game from the software list in this case, giving a best match message)

the latter scenario prevents you to sit at a black screen in systems like a2600 and a7800, but for instance gives you no way to see the "wrong region" messages that many genesis and snes games contain, which might be instead interesting for developers (and thus experienced users have a way to load every game in every console region, by adding the media switch -cart)

feel free to keep asking for clarifications: I understand very well that it's hard to digest all the available options at once



CiroConsentino
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: etabeta]
#341015 - 06/03/15 01:52 PM


Thank you. I will add this info to my to-do list for MESS games
If I have more questions I'll sure be asking.



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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: CiroConsentino]
#341022 - 06/03/15 05:34 PM


> Thanks for the details. Complex stuff. I think I'll start a new file to list all
> these things about MESS until I understand things better. Yes I'm new to MESS, much
> more complex than MAME.

yeah, it's a lot of stuff one has to learn...
and partially it's also my fault, since I tried to jump to some complex example without a gentle introduction to the bases

let me try to amend this now

running "mame system __options__ -lx" is your best friend here. whenever you parse the output of this command, you will have a series of <machine> entries where the first one represents the actual running system and the latter ones (if any) represents all the possible entities that can be attached to the running system
since the amount of attachable entities varies with the selected __options__ you might probably want to focus your parsing effort on the first <machine> block

in such <machine> block, in addition to the options you're used to parse for the "classic" MAME (I guess roms and chds, plus maybe the number of controls and/or dipswitches and confsettings) you shall focus your attention on the <slot> and <device> nodes which represent respectively the available slot options and the available media switches. The former are used to configure hardware of the running system (making possible to greatly extend the standard emulated configuration), the latter are used to mount software on the running system. You need to consider them at once because specific slot options can create new media switches and new slot options (think to a c1541 floppy drive attached to a C64 expansion slot, which in turn has a serial port to attach additional floppy drives), and specific images mounted in media switches can create new slot options and add new media switches (think to a passthru cart, like a Game Genie, which has a slot to insert additional piggyback carts)

therefore, let us examine the structure of the <slot> and <device> nodes.

we start from "device" which is simpler. a standard occurrence of such a node in the -lx output is like the following one taken from a2600

Code:

<device type="cartridge" tag="cartslot" mandatory="1" interface="a2600_cart">
<instance name="cartridge" briefname="cart"/>
<extension name="bin"/>
<extension name="a26"/>
</device>


the device attribute (type, tag, mandatory, interface) are of internal use so you can skip them for the moment. what it really matters are instance and extension. the former tells you how to form the command line to mount a game image in this media: you can use either "-cartridge XXXX" or "-cart XXXX", with XXXX being either a shortname from softlist or the fullpath to a file image. the latter gives you a list of admissible extensions if you load an image from fullpath (from softlist, the extension is not checked because we often use the label markings as rom names and we get extension like .ic1, .u4, etc. which are not really enforceable). if your frontend does not filter files by extensions, the emulator will simply give a message of unrecognized file format

concerning the "slot" options, instead, let's take a look to one of the ISA options, i.e. let's analyze (part of) the first occurrence of <slot> in the output of "mame ibm5150 -lx"

Code:

<slot name="isa1">
<slotoption name="mda" devname="isa_ibm_mda"/>
<slotoption name="cga" devname="cga" default="yes"/>
[...]
<slotoption name="com" devname="isa_com"/>
<slotoption name="fdc" devname="isa8_fdc_superio"/>
<slotoption name="fdc_xt" devname="isa8_fdc_xt"/>
[...]
<slotoption name="sblaster1_0" devname="isa_sblaster1_0"/>
<slotoption name="sblaster1_5" devname="isa_sblaster1_5"/>
[...]
</slot>


the name of the slot is the first important object to read, because it means that the emulator will accept an option "-isa1" at command line. the possible valued of this option are listed in the name attribute of the <slotoption> fields: so for instance, MAME will accept "-isa1 mda", "-isa1 com", "-isa1 fdc" attaching in each case a different piece of hardware to the running machine (a MDA graphic card in the first case, a serial COM adapter in the second, a floppy drive in the third).
The default value for the option, if nothing is provided at command line, is the option with the default="yes" attribute so that in this case the option defaulted to "-isa1 cga" (mounting a CGA chipset).

If you would like to explain to the users what each option corresponds to, you can get the devname attribute of each <slotoption> and search the rest of the <machine> entries for the corresponding description. E.g. if you want to know what is added by "-isa1 fdc_xt" you can search the rest of the -lx output for a <machine name="isa8_fdc_xt"> entry to find out that in fact with this option you are adding an "ISA 8bits XT FDC hookup".

There are a few more advanced features, like the fact that you can use
Code:

mame ibm5150 -isa1 ""

to launch emulation with empty ISA1 slot, or the fact that some slot options are not displayed because are not user-configurable (and thus internal only) and they could lead to <slot> entries without *any* slot options, but I think that getting accustomed to the above is more than enough for start



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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: etabeta]
#341024 - 06/03/15 06:48 PM


Great tutorial, thanks.
First, I need to do some changes in Emu Loader's core to separate arcade from non-arcade machines (and keep the other emulators, ZiNc, Demul, Daphne, etc). Then I'll start coding a function to parse software lists and some of their particulars. From there, MESS support will slowly grow

Is it safe to assume that all machines containing < device type="cassette" ; < device type="cartridge" and < device type="floppydisk" entries can be tagged as non-arcade from -listxml output ?



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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: CiroConsentino]
#341025 - 06/03/15 07:27 PM


> Great tutorial, thanks.
> First, I need to do some changes in Emu Loader's core to separate arcade from
> non-arcade machines (and keep the other emulators, ZiNc, Demul, Daphne, etc). Then
> I'll start coding a function to parse software lists and some of their particulars.
> From there, MESS support will slowly grow
>
> Is it safe to assume that all machines containing < device type="cassette" ; <
> device type="cartridge" and < device type="floppydisk" entries can be tagged as
> non-arcade from -listxml output ?

cartridge is available to neogeo and megatech and stv bioses, to allow multi-cart loading



CiroConsentino
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: etabeta]
#341026 - 06/03/15 07:33 PM


Yes I know about them: neogeo, stv, megaplay, playch10
Emu Loader does support multi-slot loading for these systems already

Even though playch10 (PlayChoice-10) doesn't have support for multi-slot loading, I've included it in the IsMultiSlotArcade() function I've created for Emu Loader.
This function will check for all arcade machine names with multi-slot loading support.



etabeta
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: CiroConsentino]
#341029 - 06/03/15 08:34 PM


> Yes I know about them: neogeo, stv, megaplay, playch10
> Emu Loader does support multi-slot loading for these systems already
>
> Even though playch10 (PlayChoice-10) doesn't have support for multi-slot loading,
> I've included it in the IsMultiSlotArcade() function I've created for Emu Loader.
> This function will check for all arcade machine names with multi-slot loading
> support.

it's planned to convert pc10 to multislot, but current codebase would require to duplicate most of the emu/bus/nes/ code in order to support both the NES consoles and the PC10 arcade
since this would make later maintenance a nightmare, I'm still working on a more satisfactory design solution



Traso
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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: Cyberonix]
#341032 - 06/03/15 11:01 PM


Wasn't '06-ish about the time a lot of people wanted this merge so they could use one emulator?

Don't most people already have their special game lists? (I do; nor do I play any console games.) Isn't only the All Games list affected by this? Starting from scratch in building one's special game lists is only different in that the list is a lot longer.

That said, if it's perhaps only 'five minutes to code', and given all the hubbub here about this, why hasn't someone just done it? Why hasn't someone just amiably pointed out their thoughts and asked if it could be done? (I've mentioned this before....)

game type: whether put on location, it's still an arcade type game, right? Why not just 'count' all the games in MESS before the merge as a separate 'class' (versus coding class), and then any MESS type additions be similarly 'accounted' at inclusion? Similarly so with the games that were in 'MAME'. Further distinctions can be added later.



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Re: Mame 162 -listxml new [Re: CiroConsentino]
#341293 - 06/10/15 01:13 AM


This is no longer the case. I will not make the frontend detect device entries anymore, except for machines that have the softwarelist tags.

Emu Loader will only detect softwarelist tags and create games lists for each machine that uses them. And I will only make use of the .xml files in MAME's 'hash' folder.

Then, I'll use AntoPISA's new MESS category_full.ini to filter arcade and non-arcade sets. Since he's going to keep that file updated, if users want to see only arcade or only non-arcade games, it will be a lot easy with AntoPISA .ini file

This the best solution...


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