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DamienD
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MAMEUI64 v.163 - "Arcade" only DAT
#341858 - 06/25/15 07:25 PM


Hello there John IV,

Many thanks for MAMEUI64; I've been using this for many years now ;-)

A quick question really. Yesterday I downloaded MAMEUI64 v.163 and wanted to work out what I'm missing from my complete v.162 ROMs / CHDs collection.

I create a DAT file via ClrMamePro from the above executable but when running a scan all MESS stuff is appearing...

I guess you now build MAMEUI64 with MESS enabled? Do you know if it's possible to create a DAT file that excludes MESS?

I tried posting on the ClrMamePro forum (see below) but...

http://www.emulab.it/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=5ohvjcacip7ri6ekjiilpjh003&topic=3917.0

Kind regards,
Damien.



DamienD
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Re: MAMEUI64 v.163 - "Arcade" only DAT new [Re: DamienD]
#341878 - 06/25/15 10:52 PM


John IV; ignore the above post...

Do you think it's possible to compile a version of MAMEUI64 that only contains arcade games and make it available so that people could grab this if desired?

Kind regards,
Damien.



redk9258
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Re: MAMEUI64 v.163 - "Arcade" only DAT new [Re: DamienD]
#341880 - 06/25/15 11:54 PM


It can be done, but not for long. Soon all MESS drivers will be merged into the MAME source. This will make it very difficult to exclude MESS or ARCADE. Why fight it? Just accept it is the new way. I kind of like it now. I find myself playing Atari 2600, Gameboy and SNES from within MAMEUI more than I used to play from MESSUI.



Big Karnak
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Re: MAMEUI64 v.163 - "Arcade" only DAT new [Re: DamienD]
#341886 - 06/26/15 03:54 AM


Here is the 64-bit, Arcade-Only MAME 0.163 build:

https://www.sendspace.com/file/sp9wws



John IVModerator
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Re: MAMEUI64 v.163 - "Arcade" only DAT new [Re: DamienD]
#341891 - 06/26/15 04:35 AM


MAMEUI has always sought to mirror the base version, now the core has MESS rolled in so that's what I'll release.



john iv
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DamienD
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Re: MAMEUI64 v.163 - "Arcade" only DAT new [Re: redk9258]
#341911 - 06/26/15 10:47 AM


I guess I just love MAME for what it orginally created for ; arcade emaulation. I don'ty really want it cluttered with console / home systems that I'll never use in MAME.

If I want to emulate other systems then I use the relevant emulators e.g SNES9x (SNES), UNZ (FM Towns), pseX (Playstation) etc...



DamienD
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Re: MAMEUI64 v.163 - "Arcade" only DAT new [Re: Big Karnak]
#341912 - 06/26/15 10:48 AM


Cheers Big Karnak ;-)



Mamesick
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Re: MAMEUI64 v.163 - "Arcade" only DAT new [Re: DamienD]
#341913 - 06/26/15 11:33 AM


> I guess I just love MAME for what it orginally created for ; arcade emaulation. I
> don'ty really want it cluttered with console / home systems that I'll never use in
> MAME.

Completely agreed. But me and you are not MAME Developers so we have to stay silent and accept the new way.

> If I want to emulate other systems then I use the relevant emulators e.g SNES9x
> (SNES), UNZ (FM Towns), pseX (Playstation) etc...

There are so many computers/consoles dedicated emulators that a comprehensive list and choose which is the best if compared to MESS is really difficult.

I'm interested in Commodore emulation, but in MESS the video part is buggy as hell. Also I feel the lack of an user-friendly interface, where to switch easily between disk images, etc. etc. In addition, 1541 emulation seems really slow and buggy too, I have to test with more attention but MESS fails when you use software turbo disk loader, emulation freezes.



DamienD
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Re: MAMEUI64 v.163 - "Arcade" only DAT new [Re: Mamesick]
#341915 - 06/26/15 12:00 PM


> There are so many computers/consoles dedicated emulators that a comprehensive list
> and choose which is the best if compared to MESS is really difficult.
>
> I'm interested in Commodore emulation, but in MESS the video part is buggy as hell.
> Also I feel the lack of an user-friendly interface, where to switch easily between
> disk images, etc. etc. In addition, 1541 emulation seems really slow and buggy too, I
> have to test with more attention but MESS fails when you use software turbo disk
> loader, emulation freezes.

I hear what you're saying and totally agree Mamesick.

I love Amigas and wouldn't use anything else but WinUAE ;-)



DamienD
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Re: MAMEUI64 v.163 - "Arcade" only DAT new [Re: DamienD]
#342023 - 06/29/15 06:15 PM


John IV; is there any way to add in a "filter" to MAMEUI64 that excludes MESS?



redk9258
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Re: MAMEUI64 v.163 - "Arcade" only DAT new [Re: DamienD]
#342033 - 06/30/15 01:17 AM


It may be possible to add a filter like for mechanical games if there is a tag after the MESS drivers are merged into the MAME drivers. For now, it's probably best to stop whining about it. The MESS drivers are less than 1%. If you must have an arcade only list, download the source and edit .\src\mame\arcade.lst into an ini file that is placed into the "folders" folder.



haynor666
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Re: MAMEUI64 v.163 - "Arcade" only DAT new [Re: Mamesick]
#342099 - 07/03/15 08:23 AM


MESS part is indeed far behind ARCADE part but this will probably change. After MESS is merged with MAME more people will probably start use this part, more bugs will appear and finally more interest from dev.

I'll probably for a quite some time stay with Kega Fusion, bsnes (higan), vba-m, Nestopia, WinUAE.



Mamesick
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Re: MAMEUI64 v.163 - "Arcade" only DAT new [Re: haynor666]
#342100 - 07/03/15 08:59 AM


I'd like so much use MESS for C64 emulation that you have no idea. I'm thinking at the possibility to use OpenGL shaders and so on.... but when I launch a cracked game and see how MESSY is the intro of the cracker group, I start to cry and close all immediately. VIC-II video chip features are so well documented since at least 15 years. The firsts accurate C64 emulators appeared around 1999-2000 if not before, so I find quite absurd to see that video bugs in MESS today. Probably is better add support for XBOX in MESS than try to emulate a 30 years old computer. Probably.

Edited by Mamesick (07/03/15 09:10 AM)



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Re: MAMEUI64 v.163 - "Arcade" only DAT new [Re: Mamesick]
#342113 - 07/03/15 08:08 PM


> I'd like so much use MESS for C64 emulation that you have no idea. I'm thinking at
> the possibility to use OpenGL shaders and so on.... but when I launch a cracked game
> and see how MESSY is the intro of the cracker group, I start to cry and close all
> immediately. VIC-II video chip features are so well documented since at least 15
> years. The firsts accurate C64 emulators appeared around 1999-2000 if not before, so
> I find quite absurd to see that video bugs in MESS today. Probably is better add
> support for XBOX in MESS than try to emulate a 30 years old computer. Probably.

Sorry in advance about changing the tone of the thread, but some things were said that I'd like to address in a broad fashion. Much of the core emulation has been in the MAME source for a long time. I look at the failure of many desired drivers in MAME and MESS and it boils down to a few major issues in my eyes (and in my own view):

(1) Developers. All good machines emulated by MAME/MESS need an active developer behind them. Along with that, the same developer or another one knowledgeable in a certain system or systems should also be available to keep track of and adjust machine-specific code when the MAME core changes. This would include adjusting for more accurate CPU emulation, addition of new devices or machines, or other changes in core behavior.

(2) Licensing. There is probably the biggest thing MAME is working to improve on right now. Right now, our project's license is not compatible with very much outside of some early projects. Many of the single machine emulators have a valid predetermined license which is most cases is incompatible with MAME's current license. This means that we cannot simply copy/paste parts of code from other projects to suit our needs. We can use source that is available as reference points, but things need to be completely rewritten once it appears in our source. This falls back to Devs and time which are in short supply these days. It is hoped that the license efforts now will result in better code availability in the future for all systems from other projects' source code.

(3) Documentation. This includes as above other sources to examine as well as original datasheets, manuals, schematics reference audio/video recordings, artwork and other pieces to help construct the larger puzzle that is accurate documentation/emulation. In some cases there is ample documentation for a Developer to be able to make a solid "as good as" driver in the MAME core to compete with the more popular single machine emulators. Even in a perfect world where everything needed can be found, you need a capable Developer able to take this information and code it into a driver. Very few people are able to do that and can express that interest (as I mentioned above) to do it and maintain it for others to enjoy.

(4) Appreciation. A large portion of the gaming public view MAME as not a documentation project (which is its primary goal), but as simply and free machine emulator. Each person coming in has their own expectation, for sure, and most of them expect perfection right off the bat. Whenever that is not possible and such issues are obvious, MAME will instruct the users through 'flags' which bring up a screen informing them of the machines' shortcomings which they usually must acknowledge (OK). MAME tries to inform them of what to expect but large numbers of users not only find this annoying, but patch out this behavior in "no nag" patches. The fact that so many people patch out this one screen and other informational popups (loading, initializing and so forth) sort of disappoints me as a developer and a tester. To me, it feels like a lack of appreciation for the efforts and goals of the project. In the end, though, I understand the reasoning behind making your cabinet/setup play just like the arcade and use fancy graphical front-ends that display movies, allow selection of your desired game(s) and that each user has the right to use the program how they feel like using it. Would you continue to work on something if you don't at least sense some appreciation from the people that enjoy, benefit and in some cases profit from your hard work?

That's about all I have to say for now.



Mamesick
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Re: MAMEUI64 v.163 - "Arcade" only DAT new [Re: Tafoid]
#342121 - 07/03/15 09:33 PM


Tafoid, all you said in your reply is right and perfectly understandable. I agree for example with the "no-nag" patches and so on. What I have to say is another thing:
Ok, Developers may not be happy with critics from users but when you made something available for free to the public you have to be ready to receive feedbacks from your users base, positives and negatives. If you simply think that a "Fuck off dude, me I'm Developer God, you a retarded nerd!" is the answer and the attitude to use... well there's not much future for MAME+MESS project. I can understand that it's a hobby, a passion (like I guess it's for me with my MAMEUIFX) and often "real life" arrives with its problems to solve. It's normal. Though it's a fact that the focus of the development is now the 'MESS' part of the project. MAME-ARCADE (if you want to call in this way) is quite abandoned after the big "Raiden 2 & Zero Team working!" happened at least more than a year ago. I'm not criticizing the efforts on MESS, it's right because it's clear it needs more "attention" by Developers and surely offers more challenges to a talented coder. Though, if the efforts are add more and more skeleton computers and systems to the core instead of have a serious look to what it's already emulated and improve it, so, sorry to say this, I find the "there's no an active Developer behind that system" motivation a pathetic excuse. This is my opinion, wrong or right the time will say.



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Re: MAMEUI64 v.163 - "Arcade" only DAT new [Re: Mamesick]
#342155 - 07/04/15 10:44 PM


> Tafoid, all you said in your reply is right and perfectly understandable. I agree for
> example with the "no-nag" patches and so on. What I have to say is another thing:
> Ok, Developers may not be happy with critics from users but when you made something
> available for free to the public you have to be ready to receive feedbacks from your
> users base, positives and negatives. If you simply think that a "Fuck off dude, me
> I'm Developer God, you a retarded nerd!" is the answer and the attitude to use...
> well there's not much future for MAME+MESS project. I can understand that it's a
> hobby, a passion (like I guess it's for me with my MAMEUIFX) and often "real life"
> arrives with its problems to solve. It's normal. Though it's a fact that the focus of
> the development is now the 'MESS' part of the project. MAME-ARCADE (if you want to
> call in this way) is quite abandoned after the big "Raiden 2 & Zero Team working!"
> happened at least more than a year ago. I'm not criticizing the efforts on MESS, it's
> right because it's clear it needs more "attention" by Developers and surely offers
> more challenges to a talented coder. Though, if the efforts are add more and more
> skeleton computers and systems to the core instead of have a serious look to what
> it's already emulated and improve it, so, sorry to say this, I find the "there's no
> an active Developer behind that system" motivation a pathetic excuse. This is my
> opinion, wrong or right the time will say.

I cannot speak for other Devs who may or may not berate other users or protential developers. There is a certain mindset in the more experienced and seasoned Devs which unfortunately comes across as abusive given the amount of stuff the have dealt with over the years. They get a think skin and don't allow people to change or let people in sometimes. Not all MAMEDev are like this.

You are largely right about MAME (Arcade) being given less and less interest. While there are still challenges and bugs to be fixed - it boils down to motivation, desire, good use of free time. Many bugs are ones that will require a substantial rewrite to do it correctly and accurately (not using quick hacks for the sake of getting it running). MAME has always preferred to let things sit not working if they cannot be done correctly. Hacks/patches.debug tricks are last resorts when nothing else can be done.

I still believe while we have very talented people who volunteer for the project we also have dwindling numbers of people who have that dedicated interest in a game/system/machine which many malfunctioning drivers require. The move to GIT and the license reworking has brought in a small batch of new contributors and hopefully this trend will continue and the interest will come with them allowing the entire source to get some 'new eyes' on it.



CiroConsentino
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Re: MAMEUI64 v.163 - "Arcade" only DAT new [Re: DamienD]
#342363 - 07/11/15 02:25 PM


The only way to do it right now is using an external .ini file to filter the list. AntoPISA created one called category.ini for MESS (renameSET page). My frontend Emu Loader will use this file to tag games as arcade and non-arcade so they can be filtered.
That's the only way to do it and I hope this doesn't change in the future. Note that the purpose of this new "machines" filter in Emu Loader is not to filter out all non-arcade machines, but to be able to choose what appears in the games list...

Other frontends might follow the same path.



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