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Kitsune Sniper
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Humble NeoGeo 25th Anniversary Bundle
#347899 - 12/08/15 10:34 PM


Pay $0.01 or more for:
  • Art of Fighting 2 (DRM Free + Browser)
  • Fatal Fury Special (DRM Free + Browser)
  • King of the Monsters (DRM Free + Browser)
  • Metal Slug 2 (DRM Free + Browser)
  • Samurai Shodown II (DRM Free + Browser)
  • Sengoku 3 (DRM Free + Browser)
  • The King of Fighters 2000 (DRM Free + Browser)
  • Baseball Stars 2 (DRM Free + Browser)
Beat the Average for:
  • The Last Blade (DRM Free + Browser)
  • Pulstar (DRM Free + Browser)
  • Metal Slug (DRM Free + Steam)
  • Metal Slug 3 (DRM Free + Steam)
  • Shock Troopers (DRM Free + Browser)
  • Neo Turf Masters (DRM Free + Browser)
  • The King of Fighters '98 Ultimate Match (Steam)
  • Twinkle Star Sprites (DRM Free + Browser)
  • NeoGeo 25th Anniversary Soundtrack
  • + Extra games in the second week
Pay $10 or more for:
  • Shock Troopers: 2nd Squad (DRM Free + Browser)
  • Samurai Shodown V Special (Uncensored) (DRM Free + Browser)
  • Garou: Mark of the Wolves (DRM Free + Browser)
  • Metal Slug X (DRM Free + Steam)
  • The King of Fighters 2002 Unlimited Match (Steam)


According to a friend, most of these are just emulators running the same ROMS that can be used in MAME. And a word of warning, the Metal Slug games on Steam are DotEmu Android to Windows botched ports, so...

https://www.humblebundle.com/



Kitsune Sniper
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Aaaaahahahahaha oh my god new [Re: Kitsune Sniper]
#347902 - 12/09/15 04:26 AM


I just had to dig through the games. Apparently they're selling a crudely hacked version of Nebula with some Gametap stuff mixed in.

https://twitter.com/Foxhack/status/674371627103096832
https://twitter.com/Foxhack/status/674372363555749889

https://twitter.com/frankcifaldi/status/674402562498387968

https://twitter.com/Phase4_/status/674411081360535552

Jesus Christ. Just... WOW. Smell that? That's vintage emudrama back from the grave.



Haze
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Re: Aaaaahahahahaha oh my god new [Re: Kitsune Sniper]
#347904 - 12/09/15 05:28 AM


Having dug through the dotemu Raiden port I can't say I'm even slightly surprised.



Kitsune Sniper
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Re: Aaaaahahahahaha oh my god new [Re: Haze]
#347905 - 12/09/15 05:56 AM


> Having dug through the dotemu Raiden port I can't say I'm even slightly surprised.

Yes, I recall people here mentioning their Raiden port before. But they were never this blatant about it as far as I recall!

I just upped the purchase to the $10 level (I gave it all to charity) and am downloading the games in case they try to hide what they did. I've always appreciated the work all you guys do... and man... This is bullshit. Just bullshit.

My findings and the associated tweets have been noticed by a bunch of folks already, and I plan to add all this information to The Cutting Room Floor wiki, if nobody does it before me. The internet will not be forgetting about this. Screw DotEmu.



Vas Crabb
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Re: Humble NeoGeo 25th Anniversary Bundle new [Re: Kitsune Sniper]
#347907 - 12/09/15 06:14 AM


I wonder what emulator they ripped off this time? I'm half tempted to buy it to get a legitimate copy of Sengoku 3 and KoF 2000.



Vas Crabb
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Re: Aaaaahahahahaha oh my god new [Re: Kitsune Sniper]
#347908 - 12/09/15 06:15 AM


> I just had to dig through the games. Apparently they're selling a crudely hacked
> version of Nebula with some Gametap stuff mixed in.

Fuck, no way I'm paying money for hacked-up Nebula.



Kitsune Sniper
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Set the slider to all charity, there's nothing wrong with that! *nt* new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#347909 - 12/09/15 06:21 AM


> > I just had to dig through the games. Apparently they're selling a crudely hacked
> > version of Nebula with some Gametap stuff mixed in.
>
> Fuck, no way I'm paying money for hacked-up Nebula.

NT



TriggerFin
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Re: Aaaaahahahahaha oh my god new [Re: Kitsune Sniper]
#347913 - 12/09/15 07:43 AM


> > Having dug through the dotemu Raiden port I can't say I'm even slightly surprised.
>
> Yes, I recall people here mentioning their Raiden port before. But they were never
> this blatant about it as far as I recall!
>
> I just upped the purchase to the $10 level (I gave it all to charity) and am
> downloading the games in case they try to hide what they did. I've always appreciated
> the work all you guys do... and man... This is bullshit. Just bullshit.
>
> My findings and the associated tweets have been noticed by a bunch of folks already,
> and I plan to add all this information to The Cutting Room Floor wiki, if nobody does
> it before me. The internet will not be forgetting about this. Screw DotEmu.

Well, since you paid for it, be sure to leave glowing reviews of the KoF and Metal Slug games on Steam.



Kitsune Sniper
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Re: Aaaaahahahahaha oh my god new [Re: TriggerFin]
#347914 - 12/09/15 08:04 AM


> Well, since you paid for it, be sure to leave glowing reviews of the KoF and Metal
> Slug games on Steam.

Uh, the KOF games on Steam are pretty boss. Code Mystics did good work on those.

...

And I'm pretty sure I HAD a Metal Slug 3 review on Steam, but I can't find it anymore? Odd. :\ I've voiced my issues on the game forums in the past, too bad nobody there knows how the game is supposed to behave.



TriggerFin
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Re: Aaaaahahahahaha oh my god new [Re: Kitsune Sniper]
#347915 - 12/09/15 11:36 AM


> > Well, since you paid for it, be sure to leave glowing reviews of the KoF and Metal
> > Slug games on Steam.
>
> Uh, the KOF games on Steam are pretty boss. Code Mystics did good work on those.
>
> ...
>
> And I'm pretty sure I HAD a Metal Slug 3 review on Steam, but I can't find it
> anymore? Odd. :\ I've voiced my issues on the game forums in the past, too bad nobody
> there knows how the game is supposed to behave.

So, only SOME of the games in this bundle are at issue?



Kitsune Sniper
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Re: Aaaaahahahahaha oh my god new [Re: TriggerFin]
#347918 - 12/09/15 01:53 PM


> > > Well, since you paid for it, be sure to leave glowing reviews of the KoF and
> Metal
> > > Slug games on Steam.
> >
> > Uh, the KOF games on Steam are pretty boss. Code Mystics did good work on those.
> >
> > ...
> >
> > And I'm pretty sure I HAD a Metal Slug 3 review on Steam, but I can't find it
> > anymore? Odd. :\ I've voiced my issues on the game forums in the past, too bad
> nobody
> > there knows how the game is supposed to behave.
>
> So, only SOME of the games in this bundle are at issue?

Yes.

Metal Slug 1, 3 and X are Frankenstein's Monster-like mixtures of Neo-Geo to Android to Emulated-Android-on-Windows ports. They're the typical DotEmu hackjob and the games have lots of stuttering issues on many machines, bad audio, horrible scaling and some save issues.

The King of Fighters '98 UMFE and 2002 UM are great ports. Their only issue is some netplay bugs / lag problems and minimal missing content.

The rest of the games are Nebula hacks.



Kitsune Sniper
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Update: DotEmu says they licensed this legally. new [Re: Kitsune Sniper]
#347922 - 12/09/15 08:18 PM


Allright, I don't know how much of this is true or not, but DotEmu published a statement saying they licensed GameTap's emulator technology - which was based off Nebula.

http://www.dotemu.com/Letter/NeoGeo.html

So... yeah. I don't know how much of that is true or not. -_-;;



Haze
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Re: Update: DotEmu says they licensed this legally. new [Re: Kitsune Sniper]
#347924 - 12/09/15 08:22 PM


> Allright, I don't know how much of this is true or not, but DotEmu published a
> statement saying they licensed GameTap's emulator technology - which was based off
> Nebula.
>
> http://www.dotemu.com/Letter/NeoGeo.html
>
> So... yeah. I don't know how much of that is true or not. -_-;;

The problem is Nebula (AFAIK) uses the MAME FM cores*, which even to this day we haven't got Jarek to agree to relicense for commercial use (it's one of the biggest sticking blocks in our relicesning efforts as they're used by over half the drivers in MAME) so unless ElSemi specifically rewrote them for this then it simply can't be legal. There's other MAME code in Nebula too, so it's really not as clear cut as they make out.

*if somebody knows for sure that I'm wrong then please correct me.

Ideally we'd get the whole relicensing thing done and this would become a non-issue as dotemu could at that point simply use a current version of MAME (relicesning isn't retroactive so it would have to be a post-relicense version) but like I said, things like the FM cores are proving to be massive sticking blocks unless we rewrite them.



R. Belmont
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Re: Update: DotEmu says they licensed this legally. new [Re: Haze]
#347926 - 12/09/15 08:46 PM


> The problem is Nebula (AFAIK) uses the MAME FM cores*, which even to this day we
> haven't got Jarek to agree to relicense for commercial use (it's one of the biggest
> sticking blocks in our relicesning efforts as they're used by over half the drivers
> in MAME) so unless ElSemi specifically rewrote them for this then it simply can't be
> legal. There's other MAME code in Nebula too, so it's really not as clear cut as they
> make out.

Nebula definitely uses the MAME FM cores and some other MAME bits I don't recall. So it probably wasn't legal for GameTap to use it and it's likely not for DotEmu either, unless they replaced all of it.



vram74
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Re: Update: DotEmu says they licensed this legally. new [Re: R. Belmont]
#347933 - 12/10/15 12:11 AM


I'm kinda torn on this one. No one should discredit the work the MAME team or others in the emulation scene have done but on the other hand, how much of this work would've been done had it not been for all the copyrighted games/software that was dumped and used? I understand that some of it was done legally by owners of said hardware/software but the overwhelming majority of this material has been dumped/passed around through less than legal means. We've all benefitted from the work of both sides.

Seems like a wash too me. MAME's mission was always to preserve this stuff for future generations. This development changes none of that.



Haze
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Re: Update: DotEmu says they licensed this legally. new [Re: vram74]
#347939 - 12/10/15 04:17 AM


> I'm kinda torn on this one. No one should discredit the work the MAME team or others
> in the emulation scene have done but on the other hand, how much of this work
> would've been done had it not been for all the copyrighted games/software that was
> dumped and used? I understand that some of it was done legally by owners of said
> hardware/software but the overwhelming majority of this material has been
> dumped/passed around through less than legal means. We've all benefitted from the
> work of both sides.
>
> Seems like a wash too me. MAME's mission was always to preserve this stuff for future
> generations. This development changes none of that.

Yeah, it's a tough one, on one hand they're claiming to be doing things legally, when maybe they aren't*, and the very same thing they're distributing is the main stumbling block which prevents us from going full open source, but at the same time it is nice to be able to send money to the original copyright holders of the game.

the real crime would be if they've 'licensed' the unibios and Razoola is once again whoring it in, because you can't license a hacked bios that wasn't made clean-room, and his certainly wasn't. That guy is lowest of the low, I see he's also planning on selling some CD->MVS conversions too. Given that they don't seem to have removed any reference to other bootleg items in their product I'm guessing unibios has just fallen under the same bracket, one can hope anyway.

*unless they're using their own cores



Dullaron
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Re: Update: DotEmu says they licensed this legally. new [Re: Haze]
#347940 - 12/10/15 05:16 AM


> the real crime would be if they've 'licensed' the unibios and Razoola is once again
> whoring it in, because you can't license a hacked bios that wasn't made clean-room,
> and his certainly wasn't. That guy is lowest of the low, I see he's also planning on
> selling some CD->MVS conversions too. Given that they don't seem to have removed any
> reference to other bootleg items in their product I'm guessing unibios has just
> fallen under the same bracket, one can hope anyway.

I would like to see Razoola go to that page and start chewing them out over the unibios. lol



Windows 10 Pro 64-bit / Intel Core i5-4460 3.20 GHz / 8.00 GB RAM / AMD Radeon R9 200 Series
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https://sites.google.com/site/o0kinghanco0o/mame_building_info (Updated on the 07/18/2017 at 9:49 PM.)



vram74
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Re: Update: DotEmu says they licensed this legally. new [Re: Haze]
#347947 - 12/10/15 06:44 AM


Not making excuses for DotEmu, but I'm willing to bet they're ignorant of the code issue. They probably thought licensing Nebula was all they had to do. Again, not defending them.



Kitsune Sniper
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Re: Update: DotEmu says they licensed this legally. new [Re: Haze]
#347948 - 12/10/15 07:46 AM


> > I'm kinda torn on this one. No one should discredit the work the MAME team or
> others
> > in the emulation scene have done but on the other hand, how much of this work
> > would've been done had it not been for all the copyrighted games/software that was
> > dumped and used? I understand that some of it was done legally by owners of said
> > hardware/software but the overwhelming majority of this material has been
> > dumped/passed around through less than legal means. We've all benefitted from the
> > work of both sides.
> >
> > Seems like a wash too me. MAME's mission was always to preserve this stuff for
> future
> > generations. This development changes none of that.
>
> Yeah, it's a tough one, on one hand they're claiming to be doing things legally, when
> they aren't, and the very same thing they're distributing is the main stumbling block
> which prevents us from going full open source, but at the same time it is nice to be
> able to send money to the original copyright holders of the game.
>
> the real crime would be if they've 'licensed' the unibios and Razoola is once again
> whoring it in, because you can't license a hacked bios that wasn't made clean-room,
> and his certainly wasn't. That guy is lowest of the low, I see he's also planning on
> selling some CD->MVS conversions too. Given that they don't seem to have removed any
> reference to other bootleg items in their product I'm guessing unibios has just
> fallen under the same bracket, one can hope anyway.

I don't think they even bugtested the things. I played Art of Fighting 2 and something felt off, but couldn't pin down what. Then I tried Garou and it hit me - it's running slightly too fast. Some folks are having issues with the games running at absurdly fast speeds, which I suspect is tied to the monitor refresh rate. But Nebula doesn't have this issue, which makes me think they're using some really old code.

I also noticed they included a 64K BRM file which is supposed to hold the game's save data. It doesn't even seem to be used at all. Hell I'm not even sure the emulator saves any data.

It's not your typical DotEmu hackjob, but that's because someone else did most of the emulation work for them already.



ElSemi
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Re: Update: DotEmu says they licensed this legally. new [Re: R. Belmont]
#347949 - 12/10/15 03:10 PM


> > The problem is Nebula (AFAIK) uses the MAME FM cores*, which even to this day we
> > haven't got Jarek to agree to relicense for commercial use (it's one of the biggest
> > sticking blocks in our relicesning efforts as they're used by over half the drivers
> > in MAME) so unless ElSemi specifically rewrote them for this then it simply can't
> be
> > legal. There's other MAME code in Nebula too, so it's really not as clear cut as
> they
> > make out.
>
> Nebula definitely uses the MAME FM cores and some other MAME bits I don't recall. So
> it probably wasn't legal for GameTap to use it and it's likely not for DotEmu either,
> unless they replaced all of it.


I can hardly remember who wrote them (it was many years ago), but GameTap had their own FM, 68k and z80 cores that they plugged into a stripped Nebula core and integrated in their platform.
I just provided the code I was able to redistribute (only the code written by me) and assistance on how to plug the other cores and then into their frontends.



Haze
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Re: Update: DotEmu says they licensed this legally. new [Re: ElSemi]
#347952 - 12/10/15 04:48 PM


> > > The problem is Nebula (AFAIK) uses the MAME FM cores*, which even to this day we
> > > haven't got Jarek to agree to relicense for commercial use (it's one of the
> biggest
> > > sticking blocks in our relicesning efforts as they're used by over half the
> drivers
> > > in MAME) so unless ElSemi specifically rewrote them for this then it simply can't
> > be
> > > legal. There's other MAME code in Nebula too, so it's really not as clear cut as
> > they
> > > make out.
> >
> > Nebula definitely uses the MAME FM cores and some other MAME bits I don't recall.
> So
> > it probably wasn't legal for GameTap to use it and it's likely not for DotEmu
> either,
> > unless they replaced all of it.
>
>
> I can hardly remember who wrote them (it was many years ago), but GameTap had their
> own FM, 68k and z80 cores that they plugged into a stripped Nebula core and
> integrated in their platform.
> I just provided the code I was able to redistribute (only the code written by me) and
> assistance on how to plug the other cores and then into their frontends.

I guess this warrants further investigation then, to find out if the GameTap cores were genuinely original / sourced from license compatible code.

If they were (which I'm just going to assume to be the case, because honestly I don't care that much) it clears it from our point of view, which is good.

I guess the problem is dotemu already have a really bad reputation in this field, with traces of MAME code appearing in some of their other products. There have been issues with other ways of getting 'legal' SNK titles recently too, for example the recent NeoGeo handheld that was running FBA and others, it makes people suspicious.

The other issue is, as noted, that these packages were very lazy with the romsets they provided, and with regards to not deleting references to bootleg stuff. Including illegal hacked bioses like the unibios, and referencing bootleg romsets is going to make a product look suspicious when it's meant to be licensed. We document them in MAME, because we're documenting history in an unbiased way, but if you're releasing a product licensed from the original developers they really have no value.



R. Belmont
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Re: Update: DotEmu says they licensed this legally. new [Re: vram74]
#347954 - 12/10/15 05:28 PM


> Not making excuses for DotEmu, but I'm willing to bet they're ignorant of the code
> issue. They probably thought licensing Nebula was all they had to do. Again, not
> defending them.

It's a blowup because this is a running thing with DotEmu. Their "Raiden Legacy" was 100% MAME, except it ran like shit for some reason (and it predated MAME having Raiden II, so they omitted it as well). All the "real" game companies are fully cognizant of the implications of Open Source licenses. EA has someone in their legal department who full-time approves/rejects F/OSS code for use in games and internal-use tools, and so do Activision and Take-Two/2K/Rockstar.



Kitsune Sniper
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Re: Update: DotEmu says they licensed this legally. new [Re: ElSemi]
#347956 - 12/10/15 07:32 PM


> I can hardly remember who wrote them (it was many years ago), but GameTap had their
> own FM, 68k and z80 cores that they plugged into a stripped Nebula core and
> integrated in their platform.
> I just provided the code I was able to redistribute (only the code written by me) and
> assistance on how to plug the other cores and then into their frontends.

That's good and bad to hear.

Good in the sense that they had their own cores, so in theory they shouldn't have any stuff that was already in MAME or your own build of Nebula. But it's bad because DotEmu was lazy as shit, like they always have been, and probably didn't even touch any source code except for the menu stuff to add their own shitty one. Something in there is causing speed issues with modern computers.

Ah well. I doubt even a public tar and feathering will get them to fix all the bugs. And they already mentioned a not so subtle lawsuit threat if people try to slander them again. (Which I was not. They're lazy fucks. It's not slander since it won't damage their reputation much more than it's already been.)



vram74
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Re: Update: DotEmu says they licensed this legally. new [Re: R. Belmont]
#347957 - 12/10/15 08:09 PM


Ok. I didn't know about all of that stuff.



xibic
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Re: Aaaaahahahahaha oh my god new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#347985 - 12/11/15 12:44 PM


> > I just had to dig through the games. Apparently they're selling a crudely hacked
> > version of Nebula with some Gametap stuff mixed in.
>
> Fuck, no way I'm paying money for hacked-up Nebula.

This is a purchased (and modified?) version of nebula, not a hack. ElSemi might easily confirmed.



Sorry for my poor english^^
エツ



Robbbert
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Re: Humble NeoGeo 25th Anniversary Bundle new [Re: Kitsune Sniper]
#347987 - 12/11/15 02:40 PM


-



MooglyGuy
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Re: Aaaaahahahahaha oh my god new [Re: xibic]
#347990 - 12/11/15 06:52 PM


> This is a purchased (and modified?) version of nebula, not a hack. ElSemi might
> easily confirmed.

You work for dotemu, don't you?



Kitsune Sniper
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Re: Humble NeoGeo 25th Anniversary Bundle new [Re: Robbbert]
#347991 - 12/11/15 07:22 PM


> >
> >
> > According to a friend, most of these are just emulators running the same ROMS that
> > can be used in MAME. And a word of warning, the Metal Slug games on Steam are
> DotEmu
> > Android to Windows botched ports, so...
> >
>
> Just wondering which games use different roms to standard MAME/Nebula.

Basically everything that isn't Metal Slug 1, 3, X KOF 98 UMFE and 2002. All the others use standard game roms and the DotEmued GameTap Nebula.

Metal Slug 1, 3 and X are weird frankensteined ports that use a combination of modified NeoGeo data, extracted data, and WAV files for audio. 98 UMFE and 2002 are ports.



Firehawke
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Re: Set the slider to all charity, there's nothing wrong with that! *nt* new [Re: Kitsune Sniper]
#347992 - 12/11/15 08:40 PM


Basically what I did. $10 for 19 legitimately licensed MAME-compatible Neo Geo ROMs is a pretty good price.



---
Try checking the MAME manual at http://docs.mamedev.org



Robbbert
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Re: Humble NeoGeo 25th Anniversary Bundle new [Re: Kitsune Sniper]
#347996 - 12/11/15 09:48 PM


-



Kitsune Sniper
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Re: Humble NeoGeo 25th Anniversary Bundle new [Re: Robbbert]
#347997 - 12/11/15 10:08 PM


> > > Just wondering which games use different roms to standard MAME/Nebula.
> >
> > Basically everything that isn't Metal Slug 1, 3, X KOF 98 UMFE and 2002. All the
> > others use standard game roms and the DotEmued GameTap Nebula.
> >
> > Metal Slug 1, 3 and X are weird frankensteined ports that use a combination of
> > modified NeoGeo data, extracted data, and WAV files for audio. 98 UMFE and 2002 are
> > ports.
>
> Thanks!

Oops, I misread. You asked for the stuff that used different MAME roms.

The games I mentioned use non-standard data, the older Neo games do.


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