MAMEWorld Central >> EmuChat
View all threads Index   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Pages: 1

Big Karnak
Part-time Lurker
Reged: 05/22/13
Posts: 1003
Loc: Mount St. Lurkling
Send PM


The End of All MAME Derivatives
#351082 - 03/05/16 04:35 AM


Will this decision essentially be the end of all MAME derivatives?

As of now, you can say good-bye to MAMEUI, MESSUI, MAMEUIFX, HBMAME, HBMAMEUI, etc. Apparently, no future versions of these derivatives will be released.



SmitdoggAdministrator
Reged: 09/18/03
Posts: 15680
Send PM


Re: The End of All MAME Derivatives new [Re: Big Karnak]
#351084 - 03/05/16 06:06 AM


It's going to be up for discussion I assure you that. I'm not dealing with some rile people up news with a lock. You can forget that shit. I unlocked the thread.



Zaghadka
MAME Groupie
Reged: 04/26/11
Posts: 114
Send PM


Re: The End of All MAME Derivatives new [Re: Big Karnak]
#351087 - 03/05/16 06:24 AM


Sucks, but it looks like that's the fact. Robbert just posted in MAMEUI at least that it's all over because of licensing issues.

http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/sho...part=1&vc=1



R. Belmont
Cookoo for Konami
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 9552
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
Send PM


Re: The End of All MAME Derivatives new [Re: Smitdogg]
#351090 - 03/05/16 06:54 AM


> It's going to be up for discussion I assure you that. I'm not dealing with some rile
> people up news with a lock. You can forget that shit. I unlocked the thread.

I'm not sure what discussion you're hoping to have: MAME now has a real, legal license that's been successfully defended in courts on multiple continents, and as a result things linking directly against it have new responsibilities too. Several devs, myself included, have told Robbert (and whoever maintained it before him) on multiple occasions over the last decade+ that he should make *UI a conventional external FE for this and other reasons, but he chose not to listen. And now all that needs to happen to make *UI go on is to do the same work we did for MAME/MESS, but on a much, much smaller scale.



SmitdoggAdministrator
Reged: 09/18/03
Posts: 15680
Send PM


Re: The End of All MAME Derivatives new [Re: R. Belmont]
#351091 - 03/05/16 07:01 AM


I'll tell you exactly my argument is before I ever even saw a post about this subject I had private messages from multiple mamedevs about some sort of hypothetical forum apocalypse and hints toward censorship that I won't be dealing with. And if people get in fights here then so be it.



R. Belmont
Cookoo for Konami
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 9552
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
Send PM


Re: The End of All MAME Derivatives new [Re: Smitdogg]
#351092 - 03/05/16 07:11 AM


> I'll tell you exactly my argument is before I ever even saw a post about this subject
> I had private messages from multiple mamedevs about some sort of hypothetical forum
> apocalypse and hints toward censorship that I won't be dealing with. And if people
> get in fights here then so be it.

Oh, that, I don't give a shit about. There are indeed certain people affiliated with MAMEdev who think it's not possible to have a worthwhile discussion of anything here. I'm not one of them.



SmitdoggAdministrator
Reged: 09/18/03
Posts: 15680
Send PM


Re: The End of All MAME Derivatives new [Re: R. Belmont]
#351093 - 03/05/16 07:17 AM


Cool yeah, it shouldn't/won't be banned discussion. It doesn't matter if it makes a mamedev level decision. Things shouldn't be banned from discussion here unless they are really humanly awful on a level much past computer programs.



B2K24
Evolution is a mystery
Reged: 10/25/10
Posts: 2447
Send PM


Re: The End of All MAME Derivatives new [Re: R. Belmont]
#351095 - 03/05/16 07:38 AM


Isn't HBMAME itself and not the UI version completely safe because there isn't any UI elements to it or does it fall into the same category as all the others?






jasd
MAME Fan
Reged: 06/15/10
Posts: 136
Send PM


Re: The End of All MAME Derivatives new [Re: Big Karnak]
#351096 - 03/05/16 07:40 AM


I can say nothing about Mame,only two words:“Game Over”!



Robbbert
Reged: 08/21/04
Posts: 2459
Loc: Land of Oz
Send PM


Re: The End of All MAME Derivatives new [Re: R. Belmont]
#351097 - 03/05/16 07:44 AM


-



Robbbert
Reged: 08/21/04
Posts: 2459
Loc: Land of Oz
Send PM


Re: The End of All MAME Derivatives new [Re: B2K24]
#351098 - 03/05/16 07:49 AM


-



haynor666
Reged: 05/06/06
Posts: 90
Loc: Tarnobrzeg/Poland
Send PM


Re: The End of All MAME Derivatives new [Re: Robbbert]
#351114 - 03/05/16 11:47 AM


There is other way - post only diff and ask users to compile derrative yourself.

With recent tools it's quite easy.



John IV
IV/Play, MAME, MAMEUI
Reged: 09/22/03
Posts: 1594
Loc: Snohomish, WA, USA
Send PM


Re: The End of All MAME Derivatives new [Re: Big Karnak]
#351115 - 03/05/16 12:03 PM


Getting many of the old DEVs to chime in over on the license thread. With the final rewrite after the .53 schism things narrowed down to Kirmse, Haaland, Rene Single and then the recent contributors like Robbbert and Mamesick.

http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/sho...;new=1457177242



john iv
http://www.mameui.info/



Firehawke
Manual Meister
Reged: 08/12/06
Posts: 615
Send PM


The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: Big Karnak]
#351119 - 03/05/16 12:40 PM


I don't speak for the MAME team or anyone but myself with this.

Okay, seriously, what the hell is wrong with you people?

Let's get some basic facts straight:

This relicensing project has been ongoing for a year now, with repeated comments about needing to find authors of code chunks to get permission to relicense. It was DISCUSSED in public and private for at least two years before that.

If you were doing a *DERIVATIVE* build of a project with a custom license that needs to contact old coders to relicense, why would you not think "Oh, hey, I need to look into my own old code base and contact people!"?

At the very least, you could have had the forethought to ask.

If you didn't at least do your due diligence and ask questions, you have nobody to blame but yourself.



---
Try checking the MAME manual at http://docs.mamedev.org



Vaughan
Wanna Bezel?
Reged: 03/14/15
Posts: 416
Loc: UK
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: Firehawke]
#351123 - 03/05/16 01:27 PM


Only the developers of the derivatives can say, but perhaps the issue here is one of communication.

Was there a clear, and concise, announcement some time in the past about the licensing changes, and precisely what this would mean - down the road - for derivatives?

Or were the devs relying on "forethought"?

If the former, then I suppose the current situation is a consequence of derivative coders not doing what they needed to do - either because they couldn't be bothered, or because they didn't understand what was being said.

If the latter, then it's a case of naivety on the part of Mame Devs.

As it stands: surely the message to people is to download and store any and all front-ends they need for .171, a full set of ROMS, and KEEP IT.

For anything new then you're currently stuck with the embedded UI.

As I have mentioned more than once on these forums, the goals and ambitions of Mame have been pretty clear as far archiving/preserving games. This doesn't seem to have changed.

The issues seem to arise mostly when people want to use Mame to play the games. At that point Mame Dev's seem to not care too much (just my impression, some seem to care more than others, while others don't care at all). This is an odd dichotomy, and a bridge some can't seem to cross.

Add into the mix - and I might as well say it - some Mame Dev's are just plain rude and obnoxious for no good reason. The Internet, sadly, can bring out the worst in people, and it certainly applies with certain devs. Thank goodness we have the likes of R, Belmont who is at least able to have a discussion without throwing a tantrum.

In closing - this isn't good news for the community. Actually it's very BAD news. IMO, Mame devs should at least care about it. If they don't then one wonders why they're involved in the project at all - they might just as well save their work into local storage and leave it there. There's no community without Mame Dev's, but at the same time who are the Mame Dev's preserving things for if the so called "user community" is left behind?

So what happens if someone goes ahead and releases a new version of MAMEUI[insert anything] for say, .172? Mame sues them?



LensLarque
MAME Fan
Reged: 02/19/08
Posts: 96
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: Vaughan]
#351125 - 03/05/16 01:51 PM


Right after baseline MAME has taken in (or in the process of) some of the best things like MEWUI and the GroovyMAME features. Well timed ! lol.

Anyway there's still the .diff solution indeed so it's not completely over for the derivatives, just a real pain it seems.



> MAME isn't about playing the games anyway.



haynor666
Reged: 05/06/06
Posts: 90
Loc: Tarnobrzeg/Poland
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: LensLarque]
#351128 - 03/05/16 02:21 PM


Compilation these days it's quite easy anyway. Just hit one bat file, put source in specified directory and type make -j4 PTR64=1 and if needed OSD=winui.

It's really not too hard.



Firehawke
Manual Meister
Reged: 08/12/06
Posts: 615
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: Vaughan]
#351129 - 03/05/16 03:13 PM


You're going off some incredibly bad assumptions.

MAMEUI has been considered "bad" by the MAME developers for at least 10 years. The modifications to MAME needed to make MAMEUI are incredibly invasive and damaging. Yes, damaging. MAMEUI has routinely had bugs above and beyond baseline MAME.

That said, MAMEUI was not "targeted for destruction" like some seem to think. The aim of getting the code GPL was to add to the ease of maintenance for the future-- MAME now has the ability to assmililate other GPL-compatible cores and other code, and for other GPL authors to use MAME code.

You're not stuck with the embedded UI. There are dozens upon dozens of extremely high quality front ends that don't require any invasive surgery and thus will continue to be easily maintained and won't care one bit about whether MAME is under the old MAME license or the new GPL one.

MAME as a whole is not about "playing old games". It's about preservation, and moving it to GPL is one step closer to getting it into museums and other places that would really love to use it for such.

As for liability, I'm no lawyer but I can tell you that compiling a new MAMEUI without getting the license worked out would put you at risk of being sued by any single person who has contributed to the MAMEUI code over the past 20 years and has an objection to their code being GPL.

I don't see this being a huge problem, at least partially because it's being handled appropriately. Rather than screaming and crying, at least one responsible MAMEUI dev is already approaching as many code authors as possible to get things licensed properly and likely will have this resolved before a new MAME release comes out.



---
Try checking the MAME manual at http://docs.mamedev.org



R. Belmont
Cookoo for Konami
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 9552
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: LensLarque]
#351130 - 03/05/16 03:53 PM


> Anyway there's still the .diff solution indeed so it's not completely over for the
> derivatives, just a real pain it seems.

I've used this piece of motivation before, I'll use it again: we have dozens of life-long Mac users over at Bannister who compile each version of MAME as it comes out. You aren't dumber than them, are you?



LensLarque
MAME Fan
Reged: 02/19/08
Posts: 96
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: Firehawke]
#351131 - 03/05/16 04:01 PM


> MAME as a whole is not about "playing old games". It's about preservation, and moving
> it to GPL is one step closer to getting it into museums and other places that would
> really love to use it for such.

Allow me to laught out loud here on behalf of millions of users who use(d) MAME to play games and who will never make any sense out of that "it's been preserved but MAME's not intended for playing it" schizophrenia.
Museums ? What the holy coconuts ?!



> MAME isn't about playing the games anyway.



MooglyGuy
Renegade MAME Dev
Reged: 09/01/05
Posts: 1530
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: LensLarque]
#351135 - 03/05/16 05:59 PM


> > MAME as a whole is not about "playing old games". It's about preservation, and
> moving
> > it to GPL is one step closer to getting it into museums and other places that would
> > really love to use it for such.
>
> Allow me to laught out loud here on behalf of millions of users who use(d) MAME to
> play games and who will never make any sense out of that "it's been preserved but
> MAME's not intended for playing it" schizophrenia.
> Museums ? What the holy coconuts ?!

Oh, you didn't know that MAME's HLSL shader system is being used by the NYC Museum of Modern Art in order to demonstrate arcade games at an exhibit as accurately as possible? Weird. I guess it does have legitimate uses other than playing free games, despite what you and the rest of you entitled shitfucks seem to think.



MarlonK
MAME Fan
Reged: 11/03/09
Posts: 29
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: MooglyGuy]
#351137 - 03/05/16 06:44 PM


"I guess it does have legitimate uses other than playing free games, despite what you and the rest of you entitled shitfucks seem to think."

Ah...a predictably pathetic response from MameDEV's resident sociopath.

What you never grasped is that Mame was never yours to begin with, you and yours hijacked it and have finally succeeded in all-but-destroying a once-beautiful thing. Of course, you'll never see it that way as that would require a degree empathy and dropping the elitest bullshit. Sociopaths are incapable of doing either.



MooglyGuy
Renegade MAME Dev
Reged: 09/01/05
Posts: 1530
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: MarlonK]
#351138 - 03/05/16 06:50 PM


> "I guess it does have legitimate uses other than playing free games, despite what you
> and the rest of you entitled shitfucks seem to think."
>
> Ah...a predictably pathetic response from MameDEV's resident sociopath.
>
> What you never grasped is that Mame was never yours to begin with, you and yours
> hijacked it and have finally succeeded in all-but-destroying a once-beautiful thing.
> Of course, you'll never see it that way as that would require a degree empathy and
> dropping the elitest bullshit. Sociopaths are incapable of doing either.

You sound upset. What's the matter, did I hit a little close to home, skippy?



MarlonK
MAME Fan
Reged: 11/03/09
Posts: 29
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: MooglyGuy]
#351140 - 03/05/16 07:04 PM


No, poppet. I've seen you drag many threads down into patronising insult fests and ignored them completely, but as .171 marks the end of Mame for many people (people you invariably convince yourself you're superior to - coping mechanisms are strange and complex beasts) I wasn't gonna let that one slide.



MooglyGuy
Renegade MAME Dev
Reged: 09/01/05
Posts: 1530
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: MarlonK]
#351141 - 03/05/16 07:16 PM


> No, poppet. I've seen you drag many threads down into patronising insult fests and
> ignored them completely, but as .171 marks the end of Mame for many people (people
> you invariably convince yourself you're superior to - coping mechanisms are strange
> and complex beasts) I wasn't gonna let that one slide.

Oh, no! The end of MAME for many people! Yes, I truly can't blame you for not wanting to "let [this] one slide." Fight the power, bruh.



R. Belmont
Cookoo for Konami
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 9552
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: MarlonK]
#351142 - 03/05/16 07:19 PM


> but as .171 marks the end of Mame for many people

Exactly who are these people? 0.171 is currently the end of the line for OS/2 users. That's literally the entire set of people who've had their shit discontinued since we started this modernization kick. Nobody else.



MarlonK
MAME Fan
Reged: 11/03/09
Posts: 29
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: R. Belmont]
#351143 - 03/05/16 07:32 PM


It's the end of the line for many of the thousands of users of derivative builds, certainly. Ya know, those "entitled" scumbags who think that games are actually for playing?

Yes, I'm fully aware of MameDEV's views on people who dare to use Mame primarily to play games.



MooglyGuy
Renegade MAME Dev
Reged: 09/01/05
Posts: 1530
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: MarlonK]
#351144 - 03/05/16 07:34 PM


> It's the end of the line for many of the thousands of users of derivative builds,
> certainly. Ya know, those "entitled" scumbags who think that games are actually for
> playing?
>
> Yes, I'm fully aware of MameDEV's views on people who dare to use Mame primarily to
> play games.

You seem mad, bro. Is it because you're too stupid to realize that it's not the end of the line, and that many of these derivative builds will continue? You had a pretty good history going of not posting for 3 years, maybe you should try to beat your previous record.



MarlonK
MAME Fan
Reged: 11/03/09
Posts: 29
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: MooglyGuy]
#351145 - 03/05/16 07:39 PM


"You had a pretty good history going of not posting for 3 years, maybe you should try to beat your previous record."

That was actually quite witty. See? You can do it if you try. Some derivative builds will continue (HBMame for one) but some won't and I think that's a genuine shame. I don't expect you to give a damn, of course, but I'm entitled to express an opinion whether you like it or not.

Conflicting opinions don't have to descend into pissing contests, Moogly, and I really wish you could grasp this concept. Take a leaf out of R Belmont's book, he managed to ask a perfectly reasonable question without being a dick about it.



Haze
Reged: 09/23/03
Posts: 4367
Send PM


Re: The End of All MAME Derivatives new [Re: Big Karnak]
#351146 - 03/05/16 07:44 PM


> Will this decision essentially be the end of all MAME derivatives?
>
> As of now, you can say good-bye to MAMEUI, MESSUI, MAMEUIFX, HBMAME, HBMAMEUI, etc.
> Apparently, no future versions of these derivatives will be released.

I'm not sure what I missed here but it looks like for some inexplicable reason it got ugly.

This was an information post, not a 'decision' to attack MAMEUI or anything like that.

The relicensing has been ongoing for between 10 months and a year, in that time we've made multiple call outs and made it very clear that all code going forward needs to be relicensed.

We've managed to track down hundreds of authors for many thousands of source files, so asking the developers of the alt. builds to track down the authors (many of whom we're not in contact with, because it's not our codebase) for a handful of files in order to be compliant is not a huge ask, but it is a step that needs to be taken, it was important to make them aware of this. If anything the ridiculous reaction we've seen reinforces that it was the correct decision to put out the notification; it looks like some of the authors of these builds thought they were exempt from having to resolves the licenses for the code in their builds and could just carry on as usual?!


There was even code we had to drop from the main project because we couldn't track down the authors, that's life.


Essentially we reminded maintainers of derivative builds of their legal obligation under the new license (one we've had to jump through a lot of hoops to comply with ourselves) and some of them turned it into some drama show. Remind me, who exactly are the bad guys here?



R. Belmont
Cookoo for Konami
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 9552
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: MarlonK]
#351148 - 03/05/16 07:54 PM


> It's the end of the line for many of the thousands of users of derivative builds,
> certainly.

How so?

MAMEUI has already completed its relicensing effort - it consisted of needing to contact 3 people, 2 of whom are semi-active posters here. MAMEUI and MAMEHB are going nowhere; they'll be out for 0.172 right on schedule. GroovyMAME and MEWUI have stopped, but that's because all of their features are part of MAME itself so those users can come home.

Moreover, MAME's license is now compatible with the largest library of code on the Internet. It is easier than ever to make derivative builds now that MAME is under a license everyone in the community intuitively understands.



Heihachi_73
I am the Table!
Reged: 10/29/03
Posts: 934
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: MarlonK]
#351149 - 03/05/16 08:02 PM


> No, poppet. I've seen you drag many threads down into patronising insult fests and
> ignored them completely, but as .171 marks the end of Mame for many people (people
> you invariably convince yourself you're superior to - coping mechanisms are strange
> and complex beasts) I wasn't gonna let that one slide.

If it marks the end for some people, notably those still using a horribly outdated PC and/or OS, so be it. It's not like their copy of MAME will magically brick itself when it detects a new version is out, and old versions are still available for download at mamedev.org anyway. DOS is dead, Windows 9x is dead, and so is Windows XP. People are probably lucky that 32-bit versions are still being released.

[inb4l as always]



LensLarque
MAME Fan
Reged: 02/19/08
Posts: 96
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: R. Belmont]
#351151 - 03/05/16 08:20 PM


> > Anyway there's still the .diff solution indeed so it's not completely over for the
> > derivatives, just a real pain it seems.
>
> I've used this piece of motivation before, I'll use it again: we have dozens of
> life-long Mac users over at Bannister who compile each version of MAME as it comes
> out. You aren't dumber than them, are you?

That's not what I meant. And I don't use a Mac so I'm actually smarter than them.

EDIT: just in case since most devs and contributors are probably thinking every user is coming here to bitch; personally I am not worried in the least and quite happy with the latest inclusions.
I was just worried for the derivative builds because I think it's a good thing that there are several around.
But if you say most should be able to survive this change then it's fine.

> Oh, you didn't know that MAME's HLSL shader system is being used by the NYC Museum of
> Modern Art in order to demonstrate arcade games at an exhibit as accurately as
> possible? Weird. I guess it does have legitimate uses other than playing free games,
> despite what you and the rest of you entitled shitfucks seem to think.

Oh, allowing people to watch pixels dry would be the crown achievement for an emulator indeed.

You know Moogly, you shouldn't even bother reading and posting on public forums if you think so high of yourself and so low of others.
Shitfuck.



> MAME isn't about playing the games anyway.



MooglyGuy
Renegade MAME Dev
Reged: 09/01/05
Posts: 1530
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: MarlonK]
#351154 - 03/05/16 08:54 PM


> That was actually quite witty. See? You can do it if you try. Some derivative builds
> will continue (HBMame for one) but some won't and I think that's a genuine shame. I
> don't expect you to give a damn, of course, but I'm entitled to express an opinion
> whether you like it or not.

Look, the only reason why I show such an attitude is that I'm sick and tired of me and the rest of the devs being made out to be these fanged, snarling monsters who supposedly want nothing more than to kill off any "un-approved" builds. You appear to ascribe malice to the decisions made by the team, when if anything we're just guilty of broad ignorance when it comes to what derivative builds there are and what features they offer. It's not so much that we don't care as it is that we don't know what these builds offer that isn't in baseline MAME.

Speaking for myself, as someone who supported the removal of DirectDraw, I had heard rumors about some "nounevenstretch" option that I had considered looking into something like 5 years ago, but in the intervening time it just fell off my list and nothing ever reminded me to put it back on. As far as I was aware, there were no features that removing DirectDraw would take away. Yet the moment that that change was committed, people came out of the woodwork on these forums of trying to kill off support for CRT users. You can have whatever opinions you want about me regarding whatever psychological diagnoses you want to throw at me, but I would hope that we'd be given the benefit of the doubt that we weren't taking it away just to be assholes.

You have to understand, we have significantly less than 100 active developers on the project at any given time, so a feature that is only used by 1% of the users is very easy to miss or get overlooked. If something that people are really passionate about gets removed from the project, then either there's a damn good technical reason for it, or the active developers simply didn't know that it was used by anyone. Again, you can feel however you want about me, but the moment I found out the benefit that DirectDraw had for certain users, I started working to get Calamity looped in in order to bring GroovyMAME's feature set on-board, and I hope you would at least give me some credit in that regard.

I'm genuinely interested in knowing what derivative builds other than MAMEUI, HBMAME, MAMEUIFX, and possibly MAMEPlus! that have a user-base these days. I'm interested because I would be interested in knowing what functionality could be added to baseline MAME in order to better service these users. At this point, there are so many crazily-named MAME derivatives that you'd think they were named by the people behind the Street Fighter naming scheme over the years, and unfortunately I don't have the time to individually go through each one and figure out what's special.

As for what I'm working on right now, I'm working on adding a generic data-driven shader system to the BGFX renderer, so that people can use whatever shaders they want without having to modify MAME's code. Yes, that will mean that people who want to run HQ2x, 2xSAI, or whatever, can all get their favorite filters as long as those filters can be made to run as shaders. So please, for everyone's sake, don't go around thinking that we don't try to keep users in mind. It's just that with so many users, it's easy for some to go unnoticed.



APN
MAME Fan
Reged: 09/07/09
Posts: 20
Send PM


Re: The End of All MAME Derivatives new [Re: Big Karnak]
#351155 - 03/05/16 09:44 PM


What I'm wondering is, how will this affect Visual Pinmame since it is still being worked on.



MarlonK
MAME Fan
Reged: 11/03/09
Posts: 29
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: MooglyGuy]
#351158 - 03/05/16 11:17 PM



Fair enough, Moogly. That was a great answer and I genuinely appreciate you taking the time to write such a complete reply. To be clear, while I don't by any means agree with every decision taken by MameDEV, neither do I see you guys as the personification of evil that some seem to. I retract the 'sociopath' comment entirely, it was a response to you suggesting that people who want to use Mame for gaming and complain about dev decisions are 'entitled shitfucks', but it was still an unfair accusation.

I personally aren't interested in HQ filters as artificially-smoothed sprites look hideous and nothing like the games' creators intended. I use HLSL extensively to simulate CRT and vector screens as I want to try and replicate what I experienced in real arcades and of course, baseline Mame supports this. The only feature removed from Mame that I really miss is high-score support, but I really miss it. And yeah, I know it isn't coming back.



R. Belmont
Cookoo for Konami
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 9552
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: MarlonK]
#351159 - 03/06/16 12:02 AM


> The only feature removed
> from Mame that I really miss is high-score support, but I really miss it. And yeah, I
> know it isn't coming back.

One specific intent in including the Lua scripting language and giving it nearly unrestricted access to MAME innards is that high-score support could be added without ever touching actual MAME code and without creating an unnecessary derivative build. Someone just needs to make the script.

(There are other off-the-wall features that can be added through Lua too - I've already seen a hitbox viewer for certain fighting games, but I'd rather have one for shmups ;-)



Vaughan
Wanna Bezel?
Reged: 03/14/15
Posts: 416
Loc: UK
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: MarlonK]
#351162 - 03/06/16 01:43 AM


> Fair enough, Moogly. That was a great answer and I genuinely appreciate you taking
> the time to write such a complete reply. To be clear, while I don't by any means
> agree with every decision taken by MameDEV, neither do I see you guys as the
> personification of evil that some seem to. I retract the 'sociopath' comment
> entirely, it was a response to you suggesting that people who want to use Mame for
> gaming and complain about dev decisions are 'entitled shitfucks', but it was still an
> unfair accusation.
>
> I personally aren't interested in HQ filters as artificially-smoothed sprites look
> hideous and nothing like the games' creators intended. I use HLSL extensively to
> simulate CRT and vector screens as I want to try and replicate what I experienced in
> real arcades and of course, baseline Mame supports this. The only feature removed
> from Mame that I really miss is high-score support, but I really miss it. And yeah, I
> know it isn't coming back.

For the record I'm one of those that use HQ3x all the time. I don't find it "nothing like the games' creators intended" at all. The original game designers were constrained by the tech available to them at the time, and that made a lot of choices for them. In the interim things have moved on, and I prefer not to ignore that fact.

I can truly appreciate the effort's people put into Scanlines and shadow masks, it's a real labor of love for some. And sometimes I see (and have used) some of their settings - and true enough, my LED monitor looks like an old CRT. But after playing a game a couple times that way, I always switch all that off and put HQ3x on, because frankly it just looks better on my kit, and to my eyes,

At the end of the day it's all about people having the choice to use whatever they want. No-one is forced to use any feature or filter - so it's really the best of all worlds.

As it is, I think the HQ3x et al. filters are a big miss in base Mame. I have been playing with the new UI for a day or so, and while I'm not entirely thrilled with it, I have gotten the hang of it, and who knows, I may fall in love with it at some point. But sad;y, the lack of the filters will most definitely prevent it from becoming my UI of choice.

Just IMO.



remax
MAME Fan
Reged: 08/29/12
Posts: 129
Send PM


Re: The End of All MAME Derivatives new [Re: Big Karnak]
#351163 - 03/06/16 02:07 AM


Funny how many times it has been the end of this kind of derivatives this lasts months :-D

For deads, i find them very alive...

Edited by remax (03/06/16 02:08 AM)



MarlonK
MAME Fan
Reged: 11/03/09
Posts: 29
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: Vaughan]
#351164 - 03/06/16 02:13 AM


Yes, the original game devs were limited by the tech of the time, so they designed their graphics to look as good as they could on a CRT. HQ filters look muddy and destroy fine detail and I'm all about going for as authentic an experience (to the original arcade cabs) as possible.

But yeah, you're as entitled to an opinion as anyone, of course and I agree that you can never have too much choice.



MarlonK
MAME Fan
Reged: 11/03/09
Posts: 29
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: R. Belmont]
#351165 - 03/06/16 02:17 AM


Really? Now THAT would be an awesome thing and certainly bring me back to the baseline fold.



R. Belmont
Cookoo for Konami
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 9552
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: MarlonK]
#351170 - 03/06/16 04:52 AM


> Yes, the original game devs were limited by the tech of the time, so they designed
> their graphics to look as good as they could on a CRT. HQ filters look muddy and
> destroy fine detail and I'm all about going for as authentic an experience (to the
> original arcade cabs) as possible.

I programmed a commercial SNES game (and assisted with a few others) and we had a DOS TSR (terminate and stay resident) that would copy the current DeluxePaint II screen into an attached SNES or Genesis devkit and show it on the target system in real NTSC color. Hence my stance that CRT simulation gets you closest to the intended experience.

HQ and SuperEagle filters are universally loathed by the artists I know who worked on those old games. They don't consider having worked around the limitations to have been a cap on what they would've done, they consider it to be working within the medium. It's like doing real-world artwork in watercolor vs. pencil vs. charcoal vs. oils vs acrylic. Each one has different limitations; it doesn't mean that colorizing a pencil drawing means you're magically rescuing the artist's true intentions.

Edited by R. Belmont (03/06/16 04:56 AM)



Vas Crabb
BOFH
Reged: 12/13/05
Posts: 3725
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: LensLarque]
#351173 - 03/06/16 06:18 AM


> > MAME as a whole is not about "playing old games". It's about preservation, and moving
> > it to GPL is one step closer to getting it into museums and other places that would
> > really love to use it for such.
>
> Allow me to laught out loud here on behalf of millions of users who use(d) MAME to
> play games and who will never make any sense out of that "it's been preserved but
> MAME's not intended for playing it" schizophrenia.
> Museums ? What the holy coconuts ?!

And none of those "millions of users" are actually contributing to MAME development. It's the people who care about preservation who've kept the MAME train rolling for almost twenty years.



Vas Crabb
BOFH
Reged: 12/13/05
Posts: 3725
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: MarlonK]
#351174 - 03/06/16 06:20 AM


> What you never grasped is that Mame was never yours to begin with, you and yours
> hijacked it and have finally succeeded in all-but-destroying a once-beautiful thing.
> Of course, you'll never see it that way as that would require a degree empathy and
> dropping the elitest bullshit. Sociopaths are incapable of doing either.

I honestly doubt MooglyGuy's a sociopath, but I actually am. So without empathy clouding my judgement, I can say you're full of shit. MooglyGuy's been contributing to the project for about a decade and a half. He's in a far better position to say what the project is or isn't about than a halfwit like you.



haynor666
Reged: 05/06/06
Posts: 90
Loc: Tarnobrzeg/Poland
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: R. Belmont]
#351185 - 03/06/16 10:58 AM


GroovyMAME and MEWUI have
> stopped, but that's because all of their features are part of MAME itself so those
> users can come home.

From what I've read here - http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,135823.650.html groovymame code it's not ready for next release and probably will stay as patch for some time. There is also problem with highscore support (much loved not only by CRT users) not too mention no nag patch which of course will not be putted on mame.



Vaughan
Wanna Bezel?
Reged: 03/14/15
Posts: 416
Loc: UK
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: R. Belmont]
#351188 - 03/06/16 01:13 PM


> > Yes, the original game devs were limited by the tech of the time, so they designed
> > their graphics to look as good as they could on a CRT. HQ filters look muddy and
> > destroy fine detail and I'm all about going for as authentic an experience (to the
> > original arcade cabs) as possible.
>
> I programmed a commercial SNES game (and assisted with a few others) and we had a DOS
> TSR (terminate and stay resident) that would copy the current DeluxePaint II screen
> into an attached SNES or Genesis devkit and show it on the target system in real NTSC
> color. Hence my stance that CRT simulation gets you closest to the intended
> experience.
>
> HQ and SuperEagle filters are universally loathed by the artists I know who worked on
> those old games. They don't consider having worked around the limitations to have
> been a cap on what they would've done, they consider it to be working within the
> medium.
It's like doing real-world artwork in watercolor vs. pencil vs. charcoal vs.
> oils vs acrylic. Each one has different limitations; it doesn't mean that colorizing
> a pencil drawing means you're magically rescuing the artist's true intentions.

I can definitely see that - but let me ask you this, if you were writing that game today, what would it look like?

Besides that - there is the concept that the artwork doesn't solely belong to the artist. Once it's released, it enters the lives of others, and the meaning or intention is no longer slavishly tied to what the original artist wanted or meant, instead it becomes what the viewer, user, or in this case gamer - perceives it to be.

I think we should take into account the different audiences that use Mame. There are a group that wants to slavishly replicate the original experience. This is a huge benefit when it comes to the devs, because they're essentially archiving history.

Then there are the people who play the games. A good number of them also want to replicate the original experience, and for them scanlines, screen curvature, refresh rates etc. are very important.

Finally there are the others, such as myself. I can appreciate the desire for making the experience as much like original experience as possible, but at the end of the day I don't have a CRT, and don't see any reason to put up with jagged edges and the like. I play from a distance of around four to five feet from the screen. HQ3x improves the presentation, it doesn't detract from it. That is, of course, simply a preference on my part. When playing I'm not counting pixels, or admiring the tiny detail on a costume of a character being beaten up on screen. I'm concerned about the overall presentation.

Playing, say, Pacman - what I'm after is to be challenged as I would have been in an arcade. That's the nostalgia part. Mame does that brilliantly. The sound is very important too. The graphics are important - but to my eyes HQ3x doesn't destroy anything, and doesn't harm anything. It simply smooths things out a bit on modern equipment. To me, the games look great on an LED screen with HQ3x. When playing I don't notice any issues, I'm too busy losing! And I'm totally lost in the nostalgia. It stands to reason that those who want to replicate CRT's will not like it, but that just means they don't enjoy it that way - they're not more "right" or correct in their choice, just different. Having grown up in the era of CRT's, I can honestly say I have no desire to go back to using that technology - what we have now is so much better.

It's akin to going to see a Van Gogh - is it better to see it in a nice modern gallery with excellent lighting and facilities, or was it better to see it in the artists studio where the lighting was poor, it was dusty, and the place smelled like a damp dog? I opt for the former.

I suppose this is a key issue, perhaps based on a total misunderstanding. Again, I 100% appreciate the core goals of Mame devs. You and others do, and have done, an amazing and important job. Your slavish desire to preserve, exactly, the original experience is commendable and vital.

On the other hand it feels as though Mame devs kind of look down on those that play the games, almost as though you have disdain for them at times (I'm using "you" here in a broad sense, not directing it at solely yourself). Personally I'm thrilled that there are people sufficiently interested in the games to show an interest, but at times it seems as though Mame devs see the users of their code as hangers-on who are simply leeching off their vital work. Again, I may have a completely wrong impression, and I apologize up front if I do.

I'll be forever grateful to Mame devs, past and present, for the work they've done. These games (well, for me a core set between the 70's up to around the mid-80's) are part of my life experience, and at the time they were simply astonishing and exciting. They mean a lot to me personally, and through Mame I can relive part of my history (my own history is thereby intertwined with the history of the games themselves, which is an important element to all this).

But in 2016 I don't feel the need to pretend that it's still the 70's, and have scanlines and screen curvature etc. That wasn't part of the EXPERIENCE, that was simply a window into game. Back in the day I never once looked at a game and said: "Wow, look at those scanlines!" or "Wow, the screen curvature is ace on this one!", or even, "This game would suck if it didn't have scanlines!" Today that window is a widescreen LED for me - and frankly, it's plain better than the old CRT monitors. Therefore, the likes of HQ3x are essential parts of my enjoying these classics today.

IMO

EDIT: "HQ and SuperEagle filters are universally loathed by the artists I know who worked on those old games."

I'm seriously amazed they have any opinion on them at all. Do they universally loathe LCD and LED screens too? How about modern day controllers? Do they dislike modern development tools and languages? It's such a minor change, after all. Take Pacman as an example - nothing is destroyed by using HQ3x, all the detail is there to my eyes, it's just less jagged.



MarlonK
MAME Fan
Reged: 11/03/09
Posts: 29
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: R. Belmont]
#351189 - 03/06/16 01:16 PM


"It's like doing real-world artwork in watercolor vs. pencil vs. charcoal vs. oils vs acrylic. Each one has different limitations; it doesn't mean that colorizing a pencil drawing means you're magically rescuing the artist's true intentions."

Yep. Couldn't have put it better myself! :-)



MarlonK
MAME Fan
Reged: 11/03/09
Posts: 29
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#351191 - 03/06/16 02:01 PM


This has already been resolved, the sociopath comment has been recanted and all have moved on. I guess it takes a true half-wit to make a knee-jerk comment without bothering to read the full thread. Just sayin'.



LensLarque
MAME Fan
Reged: 02/19/08
Posts: 96
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#351192 - 03/06/16 02:45 PM


> And none of those "millions of users" are actually contributing to MAME development.
> It's the people who care about preservation who've kept the MAME train rolling for
> almost twenty years.

Huh ? So What ? You don't like the idea of millions of people enjoying the software you've made or contributed to: then don't make it public/freeware.

You will never change the fact that to the masses of users the 'museum' claim will forever translate to "yeah we love that part, but, er, cool story bro now iama play if you don't mind".
For anyone video games are naturally made to be played, not just being code sitting on a hard drive.
Like it or not even if MAME is a huge preservation media it is for the vast majority a huge gaming platform.

Like Vaughan I'll always be grateful for what the people who've made MAME did, but that disdain for the users some of you show is absurd.
I've been playing since the early 80's and I don't have any morality lessons to receive from you guys about who genuinely loves games and who's a leech, just because you have the skills to contribute doesn't make you a more 'moral' person than me.
Maybe you wish you had the power to select users worthy of MAME and kick the dirty peasants out ? again by all means make it private and/or commercial.
Or simply, to those of the MAME crowd who can't stand the sight of users wording criticism and make requests; maybe just don't even talk to them ?

It's been mentioned after all: bannister is a more elite place, go have a chat with gentlemen coders here and leave the stupid plebe to memeworld.

@Vaughan: to me genuine low res RGB CRT's superiority is still obvious, I've owned several, still do, living in Europe it's always been easy access and display/signal quality an important part of the experience.
Not saying we should never kiss CRTs goodbye, but I don't feel the current flat panel displays + shaders are worthy-enough replacements yet.
Maybe in some years when OLED or similar (4K or more) with gaming monitor variants will hopefuly become widely available and affordable.
I know my CRT's will easily live another decade or two, I'm going to keep them until I can tell 'okay I can live with only simulation'.



> MAME isn't about playing the games anyway.



Vaughan
Wanna Bezel?
Reged: 03/14/15
Posts: 416
Loc: UK
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: LensLarque]
#351193 - 03/06/16 03:19 PM


> It's been mentioned after all: bannister is a more elite place, go have a chat with
> gentlemen coders here and leave the stupid plebe to memeworld.
>
> @Vaughan: to me genuine low res RGB CRT's superiority is still obvious, I've owned
> several, still do, living in Europe it's always been easy access and display/signal

> quality an important part of the experience.
> Not saying we should never kiss CRTs goodbye, but I don't feel the current flat panel
> displays + shaders are worthy-enough replacements yet.
> Maybe in some years when OLED or similar (4K or more) with gaming monitor variants
> will hopefuly become widely available and affordable.
> I know my CRT's will easily live another decade or two, I'm going to keep them until
> I can tell 'okay I can live with only simulation'.

I no longer own a CRT, though I grew up with them. Since I've almost spent a large amount of time on computers, I tend to be swayed by my experience through using them. CRT's are big, clunky, heat generators. And hi-res looks like hell on them (albeit PAL was better than NTSC).

Modern TV's and monitors are just fantastic, imo. In the sense that they differ from CRT's - such as the mechanics of scanlines etc. - it's all better with modern stuff, imo.

What the modern stuff can't do, is to be a CRT. It's just not. For those that slavishly try to get scanlines going, and all that stuff.... well, perhaps they would be better served by just getting a CRT and using it. Not that there's no point in the emulation, but hey, a CRT will beat an emulated CRT every time.

Kind of like 2600 emulation. There are some good emulators out there, for day to day game playing, they're more than adequate. But I accept that when I dig out my original hardware, plug in the cartridge, and play.... well, that's on a different level. No emulation can replicate that. There's so much more to it than can be easily described, if that makes sense.

You make an interesting point when you write "You don't like the idea of millions of people enjoying the software you've made or contributed to: then don't make it public/freeware."

This thought had occurred to me also. The same line of thought goes for those who hate reading requests from users, or hate that users don't run modes/ways they want to dictate, or neophyte user requests - what possesses them to comment at all? Why not just pass such things by?

Mame just integrated a UI - why? For what purpose? The command-line runs fine. Isn't it simply to make things easier to use? Surely no-one is laboring under the illusion that the vast majority of people playing these games own the original boards? Why create a system where a game can be played along with its associated artwork (bezels, marquee's etc.)? They can be adequately preserved as PNG files, without a system to have them playable, no?

I think the answer is, it is well known the games are out there, and that people play them. Some Mame development has clearly been in acknowledgment of that, even if it's not been specifically acknowledged.

Moving forward - well it's another strange area. It's just my personal opinion, but I think a lot of Mame people are so intent in looking backward, they forget that the momentum is forwards. Yes, Pacman was coded in 288 X 244 - that's good and all, but in modern terms it's a bit limited. Methods to ease into a more modern setting aren't a stain on emulation, an insult to the original developers, or an attack on Mame itself - it's simply a big picture view that looks both ways.

I want emulation, but I don't want it to be 1980 again.



Vas Crabb
BOFH
Reged: 12/13/05
Posts: 3725
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: LensLarque]
#351194 - 03/06/16 03:25 PM


> > And none of those "millions of users" are actually contributing to MAME
> development.
> > It's the people who care about preservation who've kept the MAME train rolling for
> > almost twenty years.
>
> Huh ? So What ? You don't like the idea of millions of people enjoying the software
> you've made or contributed to: then don't make it public/freeware.

We don't mind if people enjoy the software, but that's not its primary goal, that's just a nice side-effect. The primary audience for MAME is MAME developers and contributors, and that's who we cater to. We don't have to feel like we owe anyone else.

> You will never change the fact that to the masses of users the 'museum' claim will
> forever translate to "yeah we love that part, but, er, cool story bro now iama play
> if you don't mind".
> For anyone video games are naturally made to be played, not just being code sitting
> on a hard drive.
> Like it or not even if MAME is a huge preservation media it is for the vast majority
> a huge gaming platform.

Yes, people can use MAME as a gaming platform if they want, in fact we're happy if they do. We only become unhappy when they start making unreasonable demands and acting like we owe them. We don't owe them anything, and we don't care if they stop using MAME as a gaming platform. It makes no difference to us.



Ziggy100
MAME Fan
Reged: 06/14/08
Posts: 287
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#351195 - 03/06/16 03:31 PM



Quote:


The primary audience for MAME is MAME developers and
contributors, and that's who we cater to.




I wonder what Nicola thinks of such arrogant horseshit today and questions whether his creation is in the right hands.



LensLarque
MAME Fan
Reged: 02/19/08
Posts: 96
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: Ziggy100]
#351196 - 03/06/16 03:35 PM


There's really an issue with a number of devs and contributors living in their own fantasy world and with a lot of wrong ideas about how users see MAME.



uman
MAME Fan
Reged: 04/15/12
Posts: 351
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: Vaughan]
#351197 - 03/06/16 04:05 PM


> > It's been mentioned after all: bannister is a more elite place, go have a chat with
> > gentlemen coders here and leave the stupid plebe to memeworld.
> >
> > @Vaughan: to me genuine low res RGB CRT's superiority is still obvious, I've owned
> > several, still do, living in Europe it's always been easy access and display/signal
> > quality an important part of the experience.
> > Not saying we should never kiss CRTs goodbye, but I don't feel the current flat
> panel
> > displays + shaders are worthy-enough replacements yet.
> > Maybe in some years when OLED or similar (4K or more) with gaming monitor variants
> > will hopefuly become widely available and affordable.
> > I know my CRT's will easily live another decade or two, I'm going to keep them
> until
> > I can tell 'okay I can live with only simulation'.

EXACTLY, very well described.


> I no longer own a CRT, though I grew up with them. Since I've almost spent a large
> amount of time on computers, I tend to be swayed by my experience through using them.
> CRT's are big, clunky, heat generators. And hi-res looks like hell on them (albeit
> PAL was better than NTSC).
>
> Modern TV's and monitors are just fantastic, imo. In the sense that they differ from
> CRT's - such as the mechanics of scanlines etc. - it's all better with modern stuff,
> imo.

Yeah and in other peoples opinion IT IS NOT... period. You have your opinion and we have ours.


> What the modern stuff can't do, is to be a CRT. It's just not. For those that
> slavishly try to get scanlines going, and all that stuff.... well, perhaps they would
> be better served by just getting a CRT and using it. Not that there's no point in the
> emulation, but hey, a CRT will beat an emulated CRT every time.

There was a time, where i would act like "CRTs only", but i have changed my mind a long time ago, because CRTs are disappearing and in some countries more than in others, so i see a necessarity in CRT simulation and try to help wherever i can with this task. And for sure i dont count the HQ3x bullshit to it. Be happy that the devs have the mercy, to add support to this IMO rather crap looking shaders, where everything looks like a licked candy-drops. IMO

> Kind of like 2600 emulation. There are some good emulators out there, for day to day
> game playing, they're more than adequate. But I accept that when I dig out my
> original hardware, plug in the cartridge, and play.... well, that's on a different
> level. No emulation can replicate that. There's so much more to it than can be easily
> described, if that makes sense.


> Moving forward - well it's another strange area. It's just my personal opinion, but I
> think a lot of Mame people are so intent in looking backward, they forget that the
> momentum is forwards. Yes, Pacman was coded in 288 X 244 - that's good and all, but
> in modern terms it's a bit limited. Methods to ease into a more modern setting aren't
> a stain on emulation, an insult to the original developers, or an attack on Mame
> itself - it's simply a big picture view that looks both ways.
>
> I want emulation, but I don't want it to be 1980 again.

schizophrenic answers IMO. on one side dont want to live in 1980 and on the other side turns on his atari 2600 and even dont have the nerves to understand why people still love their CRT IMO



uman
MAME Fan
Reged: 04/15/12
Posts: 351
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: LensLarque]
#351198 - 03/06/16 04:13 PM


> There's really an issue with a number of devs and contributors living in their own
> fantasy world and with a lot of wrong ideas about how users see MAME.

Agreed and the fact that a huge user-community is also very attractive for any new developer that wants to join MAME. Of course they dont owe us nothing and in case for credits/honor... me repeatedly pressing "5" here...



Vas Crabb
BOFH
Reged: 12/13/05
Posts: 3725
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: LensLarque]
#351199 - 03/06/16 04:26 PM


> There's really an issue with a number of devs and contributors living in their own
> fantasy world and with a lot of wrong ideas about how users see MAME.

You guys don't know the origins of MAME or understand how developers think.

Nicola made MultiPac as an experiment in making a modular emulator that could support multiple hardware platforms. It was done purely as an exercise to see if this approach to emulator development was practical or not. The approach proved successful, and the experiment turned into a preservation project, which we now know as MAME. I’m not rewriting history here, this is how it happened. MAME has always favoured accuracy over performance and documentation over hacks.

The current MAME team has Nicola’s blessing to continue the preservation project. MAME is a registered trademark of Nicola Salmoria, and he could shut us down any time he wanted. He’s still occasionally in contact, and shows up from time to time when something interests him. We didn’t depose him, or steal his baby, or whatever else you seem to think we’ve done.

We know exactly how the majority of users see MAME: as a way to play free games and nothing more. But even if all these users disappeared tomorrow, it would make no difference to the future of MAME. That's because the vast majority of users don't contribute to MAME in the slightest.

When you get past the completely non-contributing users, there's a group who contribute nothing but complaints and attitude.

Moving on again, there's a small group of people who contribute to the MAME ecosystem without contributing to MAME directly – these are the front-end developers, the people who curate the snapshot and cabinet photo libraries, the people who file bug reports, the artwork creators and so on.

Finally there’s a tiny group, a few dozen at most, who actively contribute to MAME development and maintenance.

Now which of these groups should we cater to? To ensure MAME’s ongoing survival, we need to cater primarily to the actual contributing developers – the future of the project depends on their ongoing presence. If we can attract more contributing developers, MAME can move forward faster, so we want to make the project attractive to potentially interested people with appropriate knowledge/skills. The needs of the people who contribute to the MAME ecosystem are also considered, but as a somewhat lower priority.

When it comes to the rest of the users, if their needs/demands/wishes clash with those of the contributing developers, who do you think we’ll side with? The answer should be obvious: the developers. Without contributing developers, the project will die. Without non-contributing users, the project will continue on just fine. Unlike commercial software where the goal is to maximise profit from sales, MAME gains nothing from non-contributing users. I know it sounds harsh, but MAME doesn't need to care what you think.

The number of active contributors isn't suffering. In fact, we've brought several new people onboard recently, and we're receiving plenty of external contributions through github. So we must be doing something right. The effort to resolve licensing issues makes it easier to contribute to MAME, and also makes it easier for MAME to contribute to other open source/free software projects. This is about the future of MAME.

So whether you want to accept it or not, MAME doesn't care, and never has cared, what the majority of users think. You don't pay us, and we don't owe you. If MAMEdev's latest decisions are unacceptable to you, go ahead and stop using MAME, or stay with 0.171 or whatever version doesn’t offend you. It makes no difference to the future of the project, since you aren’t contributing anything besides complaints anyway. In fact, MAME is now GPL-licensed. So why don't you fork the codebase and make a MAME derivative that better suits what the vast majority of MAME users demand? Or if you don’t have the skills, you can pay someone to do it. The GPL doesn’t permit restrictions on commercial use, so you’re free to hire paid developers to make the MAME derivative you want.

But for whatever reason, no matter how many times people have proclaimed that MAMEdev has killed MAME in the last two decades, people don't stop using it, and MAME has a habit of out-living other emulators that put more focus on the things the vast majority of users seem to see as more important. And that demonstrates that MAMEdev can't be completely wrong.



Vas Crabb
BOFH
Reged: 12/13/05
Posts: 3725
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: uman]
#351200 - 03/06/16 04:28 PM


> > There's really an issue with a number of devs and contributors living in their own
> > fantasy world and with a lot of wrong ideas about how users see MAME.
>
> Agreed and the fact that a huge user-community is also very attractive for any new
> developer that wants to join MAME. Of course they dont owe us nothing and in case for
> credits/honor... me repeatedly pressing "5" here...

You're completely wrong there: the huge user community does nothing to attract developers to unpaid projects.



Haze
Reged: 09/23/03
Posts: 4367
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#351201 - 03/06/16 04:38 PM


I should add that a fair amount of hostility you do see towards users is a DIRECT result of so many people lacking basic respect over the years in their dealings with the developers providing this software.

The latest incident with Mamesick just further shows that, we highlight what developers of builds need to do, John IV quietly does what is needed to clear as much of the UI code as possible, Mamesick on the other hand starts hurling abuse at us.

People continuing to remove warning messages THAT ARE IMPORTANT, against the express wishes of the team, is another example. People doing such things have caused us no end of trouble, wasting countless hours of our time over the years, but we're just meant to smile and accept that? (and no, I don't want to read about how annoying it is in a cab, the need for them being there outweighs that 10 fold, only a tiny, tiny minority use MAME in a cab, the rest are too lazy to make 2 key presses, or just plain rude)

Even now there are people demanding builds readd the removed drivers, or ignore the requirements of the relicensing work after we've spent near enough a year sorting out as much of it as we can to ensure what we deliver is 100% legal and can be used without worry in many more situations than ever before.

There are other hacks we don't really approve of, for a while there were people doing absurd and dangerous stuff like hacking all drivers in MAME to use a 60hz refresh rate and silently slipping that kind of thing in their builds, things like that upset the game timing so badly it's not even funny. We requested that not be done, were met with hostility. Strangely we know a lot better how dangerous such things are, yet in that situation apparently our opinion, as authors of the code, didn't matter and wasn't valid.

These are very basic cases of respect.

Even with the relicensing thing I'm already seeing threads where people are now discussing how they can make money out of selling bare 'MAME machines' without us being able to close them down now, again, it's pathetic, it really is.

So why is it really surprising that we prefer to cater to the audience that actually helps progress the project instead.

Now, I'm going to disgree with Vas to a point here, because I do think we need some users, because in the end they're out testers (no matter how good our automated testing, real world testing is the only way to catch some bugs) what we don't need are the users that are actively hostile, for example, the ones who find bugs then just start saying MAME is shit, the ones creating disruptive patches, the ones shitposting all over the place. What we can't do is let knee-jerk reactions from users dictate the direction of the project, it would be a sad project if we did (because summing up the majority opinion, we may as well only ever bother emulating the classics and let everything else die) Over the years we've seen so many people say they're 'never updating again because of x' yet, eventually they do because something catches their eye, or they realise the ancient version they were using doesn't even run properly on a modern OS.

Also, keep in mind that I say this as somebody who has had their own share of arguments with the devs, so no, I'm not even going to say they're always right (personally I found a lot of Aarons decision making and policies to be highly questionable) but there are plenty of cases where they clearly ARE, and if anything MAME has been more receptive than ever over the past year or two (but again, whatever gets done isn't good enough for one group or another) MAME has been growing, flourishing, yet if you listen to certain audiences we're doing everything wrong, and half of what we do needs hacking straight back out.



Ziggy100
MAME Fan
Reged: 06/14/08
Posts: 287
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#351202 - 03/06/16 04:41 PM



Quote:


You guys don't know the origins of MAME or understand how developers think.





Stop with this patronising bullshit why don't you.

I've been following Mame since 1997 and one of the universal constants down the years has been the arrogant, chippy, contemptuous attitude many of the devs have had towards those outside of your little clique world.

You're just a continuing example of that attitude.

Me personally, I couldn't care less about such changes, all the games I'm interested in have LONG since been emulated as well as they ever will be, so MAME could disappear off the internet tomorrow and I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

You guys go ahead and make any changes you want that make you happy.

Many of us though would appreciate it if you stopped talking to the rest us like we're inconvenient dog turds that you guys have to negotiate around in your oh so exclusive world.



LensLarque
MAME Fan
Reged: 02/19/08
Posts: 96
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#351203 - 03/06/16 04:41 PM


You don't get it Vas.

What MAME is to you and other people who make it is your problem, because you made it a free program for all to download and community forums for users to express themselves if they want to.
Under these conditions criticism and requests from users, whatever you think of those, are completely legitimate.
You coming here to show contempt towards those is therefore misplaced, what you wish for MAME to be is something private and closed to outside criticism.

Everything negative you think of users is clearly also made of quite a lot of assumptions and pretense, if ou don't like us you shoud stay in your ivory tower and keep looking down on us, though high enough so we don't hear you.



Vaughan
Wanna Bezel?
Reged: 03/14/15
Posts: 416
Loc: UK
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: uman]
#351204 - 03/06/16 04:43 PM


Oh look, Uman posts another antagonistic message directed at me. Third time now, Uman. It's becoming an obsession. Surprise surprise. All that's left is for you to post in response to this that it was *I* who was posting in an antagonistic manner, and we have the complete set.

Sadly it turns out this board doesn't have an IGNORE function. If it did, I'd of happily put you on it. Frankly, I can assure you that I care far less about what you think than you do about what I think. You're irrelevant. I don't care who you are, or what you've contributed. I'll gladly thank Mame devs for their work - but be assured my intent is to exclude you from that blanket statement. You're simply an entitled, dictatorial asshole, who falls back to accusing others of being what you ought to see in the mirror. Such is life.

It's quite lame how you just ignore the myriad, "imo" and "In my opinion" comments in my posts. For example, I wrote this: "At the end of the day it's all about people having the choice to use whatever they want. No-one is forced to use any feature or filter - so it's really the best of all worlds." That ought to tell any mature, normal headed person, that I accept people have different views and opinions. Sadly though, it doesn't leave you much room to be an asshole, so i guess that's why you ignore it.

And yes, you have your opinion and it differs from mine. Whoop-de-woo! Roll out the bunting! Crack the champagne! God has spoken! Should we start carving your words into stone now, or do you have some more bullsh*t to write before we get started?

I have no issue at all with people not sharing my opinion. You do. I think I'll leave that problem to you, because frankly, you're beyond redemption.

As for "be happy the devs have the mercy". Whoa, you have an amazingly inflated ego, don't you? Seriously, you're ill. I'm happy a dev saw sense, and provided options. I expect they did it out a desire for people to have a choice, or simply wanted the feature themselves. They didn't do it for cavemen like yourself. Just don't use it. But don't expect me to go worship at their altar. I've thanked them, and that's enough. That is the very essence of freeware - of a community where people share. Lost on you, of course.

Let's face it - if you and every other developer stopped working on Mame tomorrow - I'd be perfectly happy. It wouldn't affect me in the slightest. I have several frontends that offer everything I want. I have every BIOS and game I want. I'm happy with them precisely as they are. So, go ahead and do whatever you want. Or even, don't do things - so what? You think I'm going to get bent out of shape over it? Jog on.

Schizophrenic answers? You so lack self-awareness that you really don't see the irony in your writing that, do you? Having read your posts over the last few days, I don't think you ought to be using terms associated with mental illness.

As for the quotes you highlighted, they're not at all Schizophrenic. Rather, you're just trying to read the most negative connotation into what I'm writing so you can write something nasty. Life isn't black and white, it's shades of gray.

On 2600 emulation I wrote: "There are some good emulators out there, for day to day game playing, they're more than adequate." along with, "But I accept that when I dig out my
original hardware, plug in the cartridge, and play.... well, that's on a different level."

Nothing contradictory there, nothing schizophrenic.

In the next paragraph you quoted well, a normal individual with even basic social skills will have no trouble deriving my meaning. I stand by it, because it's my opinion. There's nothing at all contradictory in that either.

Finally you write: "even dont have the nerves to understand why people still love their CRT".

This perfectly illustrates the lengths you will go to generate angst for no good end. Where have I, in any way, said I'm annoyed, upset, concerned, bothered, or troubled by people wanting a CRT experience?

I wrote: "I can truly appreciate the effort's people put into Scanlines and shadow masks, it's a real labor of love for some. And sometimes I see (and have used) some of their settings - and true enough, my LED monitor looks like an old CRT."

and

" It stands to reason that those who want to replicate CRT's will not like it, but that just means they don't enjoy it that way - they're not more "right" or correct in their choice, just different."

Please explain how these comments in any way denigrate CRT's, or people who want to play on CRT's, or emulate them. Take your time.

And - to be honest - it would be better via PM, because once again you're polluting a thread with your unnecessarily antagonistic attitude. Let's face it, if I were to consider contributing time or money to Mame development, I'd not do it. There is no way I'd contribute to anything that you have a connection to. You just stain the entire Mame development effort, imo. Sad, but true. You must be a very good coder, because honestly, I don't imagine anyone would keep you around for anything else. IMO.

Now I'm going to go use your code to play games with HQ3x. Live with it.



Vaughan
Wanna Bezel?
Reged: 03/14/15
Posts: 416
Loc: UK
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: uman]
#351205 - 03/06/16 04:44 PM


> > There's really an issue with a number of devs and contributors living in their own
> > fantasy world and with a lot of wrong ideas about how users see MAME.
>
> Agreed and the fact that a huge user-community is also very attractive for any new
> developer that wants to join MAME. Of course they dont owe us nothing and in case for
> credits/honor... me repeatedly pressing "5" here...

ROTFLMAO

Seriously, why don't you admit that someone else wrote that for you and you copy and pasted it.



uman
MAME Fan
Reged: 04/15/12
Posts: 351
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#351206 - 03/06/16 05:05 PM


mmmh yah, i know ... the usual completely wrong stuff.
well at least complete.

> We know exactly how the majority of users see MAME: as a way to play free games and
> nothing more. But even if all these users disappeared tomorrow, it would make no
> difference to the future of MAME. That's because the vast majority of users don't
> contribute to MAME in the slightest.

Dont be silly. First, lets hope that it will never happen. Second, are you a prophet? how do you know, what would happen? Should i start with some scenarios here, that are silly like yours? Ok, lets assume, your "vision" would happen. Now lets assume, that there are indeed some MAME derivates and to make you a little angry (like you do with your states) , Retroarch had become very popular and has a huge fanbase. Would you still think that the majority of the developers would still stay at official MAME?

> But for whatever reason, no matter how many times people have proclaimed that MAMEdev
> has killed MAME in the last two decades, people don't stop using it, and MAME has a
> habit of out-living other emulators that put more focus on the things the vast
> majority of users seem to see as more important. And that demonstrates that MAMEdev
> can't be completely wrong.

Complete nonsense. MAME is not the one and only dominating emulator on this planet (even if you wish that). One of the reasons why MAME has a habit of out-living other emulators, is that you have a huge developerbase and can easily replace someone who is leaving MAME. Also there are many other emulators that are still alive, even if they listen to their users community-base, like Vice or WinUAE for example and i dont think they will suddenly disappear in the near future.



Mamesick
Troll Lamer
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 1649
Loc: Italy
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: Haze]
#351207 - 03/06/16 05:11 PM


> The latest incident with Mamesick just further shows that, we highlight what
> developers of builds need to do, John IV quietly does what is needed to clear as much
> of the UI code as possible, Mamesick on the other hand starts hurling abuse at us.

You Devs never respected me, I never respected you Devs. Some of you are still relying on that "NeoGeo accurate emulation" diatribe happened in I believe 2003 or so.

Without annoying you Devs that NeoGeo in MAME is far from perfect now yet even if you are convinced of the opposite but MAMETesters opened bugs are speaking for theirselves.

I submitted a lot of 1 line patches and so where's the deal? Maybe you Devs are thinking that I didn't read the game driver source code carefully and understood every line before submitting the patch? If not, you're more ignorant (which doesn't mean stupid but people who don't know the truth of a fact) than I'm thinking.

I quit because I haven't any contact/data for who for example wrote hiscore.dat support in the first place and so on. So, since I don't want to make a new version of MAMEUIFX without features I cannot include anymore, better stop. It's my choice.

You Devs also are lying when you say you warned mantainers of derivative builds about the new re-licensing. I was never contacted for this (which was expectable) or never seen an announcement here on in another place about it.

So, game over. Your plan is accomplished.



Haze
Reged: 09/23/03
Posts: 4367
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: Mamesick]
#351208 - 03/06/16 05:24 PM


> > The latest incident with Mamesick just further shows that, we highlight what
> > developers of builds need to do, John IV quietly does what is needed to clear as
> much
> > of the UI code as possible, Mamesick on the other hand starts hurling abuse at us.
>
> You Devs never respected me, I never respected you Devs. Some of you are still
> relying on that "NeoGeo accurate emulation" diatribe happened in I believe 2003 or
> so.
>
> Without annoying you Devs that NeoGeo in MAME is far from perfect now yet even if you
> are convinced of the opposite but MAMETesters opened bugs are speaking for
> theirselves.
>
> I submitted a lot of 1 line patches and so where's the deal? Maybe you Devs are
> thinking that I didn't read the game driver source code carefully and understood
> every line before submitting the patch? If not, you're more ignorant (which doesn't
> mean stupid but people who don't know the truth of a fact) than I'm thinking.
>

Some were valid, some were not. In general your track record is better than MASH's, but a fair number of your fixes still didn't make a huge amount of sense from a hardware point of view. The net result of this was that people were looking at your build and seeing 'fixes' that were actually hacks, then complaining that Mamedev were terrible for not including them, when really we just had different standards. I do appreciate that you started marking your fixes as hacks to clarify that in the end tho.

The whole incident over at github a few months back where you closed a pull request just because nobody had got around to reviewing it was rather childish too, especially considering I'd got home, gone to look for it in order to do exactly that, only to find you'd closed it and started claiming we were all against you there too.

Is NeoGeo perfect in MAME? No. A lot of the glitches people complain about in current versions DO happen on hardware tho, and then there are a handful of rather messy cases which have MT reports, the CORRECT solution to them isn't simple.

> I quit because I haven't any contact/data for who for example wrote hiscore.dat
> support in the first place and so on. So, since I don't want to make a new version of
> MAMEUIFX without features I cannot include anymore, better stop. It's my choice.
>
> You Devs also are lying when you say you warned mantainers of derivative builds about
> the new re-licensing. I was never contacted for this (which was expectable) or never
> seen an announcement here on in another place about it.
>

it should have been obvious shouldn't it? we had spent 10 months going over every line of code, assigning an owner and their choice of license until we were left with only a handful we couldn't attribute. What would ever make you think the same process wouldn't need to be done with the files that are extra in your project? It's common sense, the reminder on mamedev.org about it was courtesy more than anything else.

You say you don't have contact details for some of the people, it's the very same issue we faced with some code. In the case of the code in your build that is your responsibility to track down the authors tho, we don't even have that code, so we were NEVER in contact with the authors, and it was NEVER our job to track down the authors of it. We're not being unfair about this in any way, we're just highlighting the need for people to go through the same steps we did, albeit on a smaller scale.

The correct way to do something like highscores today would probably be to rewrite it using lua anyway, and if additional lua features hook points were needed, add them. a lua script could easily parse highscore.dat, and actually be a LOT more powerful than the existing system. chances are work done in that field would also be accepted by mainline MAME, so even if we didn't distribute the highscore script ourselves, it could be distributed with the .dat file and work in any MAME build.

> So, game over. Your plan is accomplished.

You might think that all of Mamedev are against you, but there was actually a suggestion of bringing you on to the team at one point, as one of the options going forward to give us an official UI (this discussion happened about a year ago FWIW) but in the end the option of going the MEWUI route was chosen instead because it offers better cross-platform support, and targets like Android are likely to become more important over time.



MooglyGuy
Renegade MAME Dev
Reged: 09/01/05
Posts: 1530
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#351209 - 03/06/16 05:40 PM


> > What you never grasped is that Mame was never yours to begin with, you and yours
> > hijacked it and have finally succeeded in all-but-destroying a once-beautiful
> thing.
> > Of course, you'll never see it that way as that would require a degree empathy and
> > dropping the elitest bullshit. Sociopaths are incapable of doing either.
>
> I honestly doubt MooglyGuy's a sociopath, but I actually am. So without empathy
> clouding my judgement, I can say you're full of shit. MooglyGuy's been contributing
> to the project for about a decade and a half. He's in a far better position to say
> what the project is or isn't about than a halfwit like you.

Vas, you know we get along great, but seriously, chill. I was planning on responding to this last night before MarlonK got around to it, but I've been at a convention this whole weekend so my access to my laptop is a bit spotty.

I do think that sometimes other devs and I are a bit too abrasive towards users, and it's not unfair at all to point it out. It's a topic worth talking about, because I think there are valid arguments to be made on both sides of the debate.

Realistically, there's a finite amount of arguments people can make about the direction that MAME should be heading in, and there isn't a whole lot that the team haven't heard yet. Pretty much any sort of criticism or concern has been answered years ago. Does that necessarily entitle us to get angry if someone comes along asking one of these questions? It's something worth asking.

Personally, I try to stay civil with an initial response unless a thread is already heading in a given direction. I'm happy to answer a question. If a person doesn't like the answer and starts to get an attitude about it, though, then I see no reason why I shouldn't meet the attitude with more of the same. It's the general idea of respect: I will respect your right to ask a question if you will respect my right to give you an answer that you might not like. If your response escalates from that point, I will escalate in kind. Again, I see no reason why I should have to take an attitude from someone with a smile when at the end of the day I'm not being paid for my buoyant personality.

I feel that the argument can be made that we should be more willing to answer innocent questions, no matter how "just asking questions"-like (if you get my meaning) a person is. I also feel that we should not be held to some sort of arbitrarily high standard of conduct if things start to go south from there.

I'm not sure where the discussion can go from here, but let's not pretend that it isn't a subject worth discussing. If MarlonK and I can come to some sort of an agreement, I think you can at least try to be reasonable, Vas.



MooglyGuy
Renegade MAME Dev
Reged: 09/01/05
Posts: 1530
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: Vaughan]
#351210 - 03/06/16 05:49 PM


> I'm seriously amazed they have any opinion on them at all. Do they universally loathe
> LCD and LED screens too? How about modern day controllers? Do they dislike modern
> development tools and languages? It's such a minor change, after all. Take Pacman as
> an example - nothing is destroyed by using HQ3x, all the detail is there to my eyes,
> it's just less jagged.

Actually, a lot of artists who worked on these older games are annoyed by how the games look on LCD and LED screens. These sorts of screens do not convey the image in the way originally intended by the artists. Running on a CRT, or with a CRT simulator, gives you an image that is as close to what the artist's original vision was. Modern-day controllers are an issue, too - the people who originally tracked the note data for Dance Dance Revolution or Guitar Hero designed it around being played on a full-size dance pad or a five-button guitar controller, not around pushing buttons on a keyboard. In fact, playing these games on a keyboard makes them far easier than the designers ever intended. They wouldn't care about modern development tools and languages, because they have literally nothing to do with the final visual result of the game, and at this point I'm forced to conclude that you're just throwing as many random terms as possible into the mix in order to feel better about bastardizing the artists' original works. The funny thing about art is that as much as you're entitled to draw your own conclusions about what the "intent" was behind it, the original artists are just as entitled to tell you that you've entirely misconstrued it. Funny how that works.

Quite frankly, you seem to be spending a lot of words to justify shitting up old games' graphics. I have yet to see a single modern 2D game at modern resolutions that looks anything like the blobby, watercolor nightmare that all of these filters produce. But I'm also working on adding support for such filters in MAME. Do you know why? Because I respect your right to fuck up the output of a game running on your system however you want. Maybe you should try respecting other peoples' rights to not.



Vaughan
Wanna Bezel?
Reged: 03/14/15
Posts: 416
Loc: UK
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: MooglyGuy]
#351211 - 03/06/16 06:08 PM


> > I'm seriously amazed they have any opinion on them at all. Do they universally
> loathe
> > LCD and LED screens too? How about modern day controllers? Do they dislike modern
> > development tools and languages? It's such a minor change, after all. Take Pacman
> as
> > an example - nothing is destroyed by using HQ3x, all the detail is there to my
> eyes,
> > it's just less jagged.
>
> Actually, a lot of artists who worked on these older games are annoyed by how the
> games look on LCD and LED screens. These sorts of screens do not convey the image in
> the way originally intended by the artists. Running on a CRT, or with a CRT
> simulator, gives you an image that is as close to what the artist's original vision
> was. Modern-day controllers are an issue, too - the people who originally tracked the
> note data for Dance Dance Revolution or Guitar Hero designed it around being played
> on a full-size dance pad or a five-button guitar controller, not around pushing
> buttons on a keyboard. In fact, playing these games on a keyboard makes them far
> easier than the designers ever intended. They wouldn't care about modern development
> tools and languages, because they have literally nothing to do with the final visual
> result of the game, and at this point I'm forced to conclude that you're just
> throwing as many random terms as possible into the mix in order to feel better about
> bastardizing the artists' original works. The funny thing about art is that as much
> as you're entitled to draw your own conclusions about what the "intent" was behind
> it, the original artists are just as entitled to tell you that you've entirely
> misconstrued it. Funny how that works.
>
> Quite frankly, you seem to be spending a lot of words to justify shitting up old
> games' graphics. I have yet to see a single modern 2D game at modern resolutions that
> looks anything like the blobby, watercolor nightmare that all of these filters
> produce. But I'm also working on adding support for such filters in MAME. Do you know
> why? Because I respect your right to fuck up the output of a game running on your
> system however you want. Maybe you should try respecting other peoples' rights to
> not.



As I've said - I don't agree the filters create a "blobby watercolor nightmare". I don't know what filters you're using, but either they're broken, or we just have a different opinion. I don't see any harm in someone wanting to use a filter if they see fit. None at all. Nor do I see a problem if people don't. It's humorous to see the hyperbole people like yourself go into to denigrate the choice of someone else though. What's up with that? I don't like these games because I want to watch every animated frame in detail and make out every single nuance. It's not my thing at all. I'm much too busy just enjoying them. The filters enhance the experience to me, it's that simple.

As to your being "forced to conclude that you're just throwing as many random terms as possible into the mix in order to feel better about bastardizing the artists' original works" - that just puts you in the camp of cynical, hateful Mame devs who prefer to think the worst of people, and has a chip on their shoulder about Mame users. No wonder you're in agreement with them.

I have no issue at all that you don't agree with me on this. I'm perfectly happy with that. You accuse me of throwing in "random terms" and then start talking about "Dance Dance Revolution" and "Guitar Hero" - whatever the hell they are. What do they have to do with the price of bread? If I wanted to play Guitar Hero, I expect either a) It's a modern game and doesn't look a bit sh*t on modern equipment, or b) I'd happily run it with a filter. And?

And guess what - the original artist probably won't be losing any sleep over it. After all - you're facilitating people being able to run such things without a dime going to them, so I expect you'd be a more pressing issue. IMO. I mean, you want to get all up in arms about someone running a filter and butchering an artists intention - but have actively worked in ensuring they don't get paid for their work. That's some really good logic you've got going there. I wonder which the original artist is most bothered by?

I'm not "shitting up" the graphics - they are what they are. I've stated they don't look great on modern equipment, that's all. From that you've dived into this weird diatribe about my "shitting up" the graphics. Yet at the same time you want to pretend you're okay with people having different opinions, and that I'm not.

You couldn't make it up.

"Actually, a lot of artists who worked on these older games are annoyed by how the games look on LCD and LED screens. These sorts of screens do not convey the image in the way originally intended by the artists."


So, in essence - they agree with me. Good. Glad they see sense and understand there's an issue. Solutions will vary from person to person. Choice is always good.



MooglyGuy
Renegade MAME Dev
Reged: 09/01/05
Posts: 1530
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: Haze]
#351212 - 03/06/16 07:04 PM


I don't have much to add other than this. This post pretty much sums up my entire issue with the "entitled shitfucks", as I put it. If you want to criticize the project, then by all means do so, but don't be surprised that if your criticisms are not constructive in any way, then we won't be, either.

> I should add that a fair amount of hostility you do see towards users is a DIRECT
> result of so many people lacking basic respect over the years in their dealings with
> the developers providing this software.
>
> The latest incident with Mamesick just further shows that, we highlight what
> developers of builds need to do, John IV quietly does what is needed to clear as much
> of the UI code as possible, Mamesick on the other hand starts hurling abuse at us.
>
> People continuing to remove warning messages THAT ARE IMPORTANT, against the express
> wishes of the team, is another example. People doing such things have caused us no
> end of trouble, wasting countless hours of our time over the years, but we're just
> meant to smile and accept that? (and no, I don't want to read about how annoying it
> is in a cab, the need for them being there outweighs that 10 fold, only a tiny, tiny
> minority use MAME in a cab, the rest are too lazy to make 2 key presses, or just
> plain rude)
>
> Even now there are people demanding builds readd the removed drivers, or ignore the
> requirements of the relicensing work after we've spent near enough a year sorting out
> as much of it as we can to ensure what we deliver is 100% legal and can be used
> without worry in many more situations than ever before.
>
> There are other hacks we don't really approve of, for a while there were people doing
> absurd and dangerous stuff like hacking all drivers in MAME to use a 60hz refresh
> rate and silently slipping that kind of thing in their builds, things like that upset
> the game timing so badly it's not even funny. We requested that not be done, were met
> with hostility. Strangely we know a lot better how dangerous such things are, yet in
> that situation apparently our opinion, as authors of the code, didn't matter and
> wasn't valid.
>
> These are very basic cases of respect.
>
> Even with the relicensing thing I'm already seeing threads where people are now
> discussing how they can make money out of selling bare 'MAME machines' without us
> being able to close them down now, again, it's pathetic, it really is.
>
> So why is it really surprising that we prefer to cater to the audience that actually
> helps progress the project instead.
>
> Now, I'm going to disgree with Vas to a point here, because I do think we need some
> users, because in the end they're out testers (no matter how good our automated
> testing, real world testing is the only way to catch some bugs) what we don't need
> are the users that are actively hostile, for example, the ones who find bugs then
> just start saying MAME is shit, the ones creating disruptive patches, the ones
> shitposting all over the place. What we can't do is let knee-jerk reactions from
> users dictate the direction of the project, it would be a sad project if we did
> (because summing up the majority opinion, we may as well only ever bother emulating
> the classics and let everything else die) Over the years we've seen so many people
> say they're 'never updating again because of x' yet, eventually they do because
> something catches their eye, or they realise the ancient version they were using
> doesn't even run properly on a modern OS.
>
> Also, keep in mind that I say this as somebody who has had their own share of
> arguments with the devs, so no, I'm not even going to say they're always right
> (personally I found a lot of Aarons decision making and policies to be highly
> questionable) but there are plenty of cases where they clearly ARE, and if anything
> MAME has been more receptive than ever over the past year or two (but again, whatever
> gets done isn't good enough for one group or another) MAME has been growing,
> flourishing, yet if you listen to certain audiences we're doing everything wrong, and
> half of what we do needs hacking straight back out.



uman
MAME Fan
Reged: 04/15/12
Posts: 351
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: Vaughan]
#351213 - 03/06/16 07:05 PM


It is just funny to read the rubbish you wrote/write. you even now dont understand, why i have wrote that you can be happy that the devs had the mercy to add support for that HQ3x shaders, in fact they even didnt do that, its just a sad side-effect that you probably can use them in the future. If you had used the term HQ3x years ago, you would be stoned to death.

Also MooglyGuy did explain very clearly why he throwed Guitar Hero and Dance Dance Revolution in and only wanted to answer your questions. I guess the HQ3x shaders did much harm to your eyes. You didnt understand my joke about the C64 yesterday and you dont see answers right in front of you today, but you are good in writing epic novels here.



MooglyGuy
Renegade MAME Dev
Reged: 09/01/05
Posts: 1530
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: Ziggy100]
#351214 - 03/06/16 07:09 PM


> Many of us though would appreciate it if you stopped talking to the rest us like
> we're inconvenient dog turds that you guys have to negotiate around in your oh so
> exclusive world.

But people like you, Ziggy - especially you - are. You are exactly that, dog turds floating in a miasma of piss, shit and cum provided by users just as technically inept and devoid of any constructive input. You've done literally nothing for the project other than drop your trousers and lay a big fat turd on almost everything we've done over the past 5 years, let alone the 19 years that you claim, which I find pretty hard to believe. What, exactly, do you feel entitles you to demand anything of us when your attitude has been nothing but recalcitrant?

Since so many people on this forum like to make with the gay jokes, let me try one of my own: Do you honestly expect me to suck your dick if all you've ever done over the years has been to tell me how shitty my dick-sucking skills are? Fuck you.



Vaughan
Wanna Bezel?
Reged: 03/14/15
Posts: 416
Loc: UK
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: uman]
#351215 - 03/06/16 07:14 PM


> It is just funny to read the rubbish you wrote/write. you even now dont understand,
> why i have wrote that you can be happy that the devs had the mercy to add support for
> that HQ3x shaders, in fact they even didnt do that, its just a sad side-effect that
> you probably can use them in the future. If you had used the term HQ3x years ago, you
> would be stoned to death.
>
> Also MooglyGuy did explain very clearly why he throwed Guitar Hero and Dance Dance
> Revolution in and only wanted to answer your questions. I guess the HQ3x shaders did
> much harm to your eyes. You didnt understand my joke about the C64 yesterday and you
> dont see answers right in front of you today, but you are good in writing epic novels
> here.

Or maybe your "joke" simply wasn't funny?

What IS funny is what I just read in a thread called "MAMEDev: Attention for all derivative builds", elsewhere on the board. It's comedy gold. Wasn't it you that mentioned the word "schizophrenic"?

Thanks for the belly-laugh. I honestly don't know if you're aware of whether you're writing to someone else, or looking into a mirror. Either way - good luck with all that.

That you'd complain someone was doing things to your posts, and you yourself then go ahead and do it to mine is just..... well yeah, funny. I'd stick to those kind of jokes in future.



Anonymous
Unregistered
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#351216 - 03/06/16 07:16 PM


> We don't mind if people enjoy the software, but that's not its primary goal, that's
> just a nice side-effect. The primary audience for MAME is MAME developers and
> contributors, and that's who we cater to. We don't have to feel like we owe anyone
> else.

Hmm. That's really not nice at all ...

> We don't owe them anything, and we don't care if they stop
> using MAME as a gaming platform. It makes no difference to us.

I really try to remain impartial but that sounded very arrogant and more like a dictatorship than a reasonable conversation. Yeah, you already stated that you don't give a damn, but it's a shame.

I always enjoyed this community. It was an escape route from the reality of everyday life, sharing a common interest/Hobby.
I don't know when and why this has tourned in a Warzone, but it would be very nice if we could remain polite and kind to eah other. Thanks



Firehawke
Manual Meister
Reged: 08/12/06
Posts: 615
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: ]
#351218 - 03/06/16 07:26 PM


No, he's really telling it like it is.

I'm a contributor, but I don't consider myself major enough to have earned the right to call myself part of the team. I've also volunteered community-side since before MAME even existed.

People are very pushy and demanding, and it's been a long term issue. It doesn't help that on top of this, you've got a few repeat individuals with long histories of abusive demands.

Consider it a line drawn in the sand now, saying "Look, I've been abused enough. Cross this line at your own risk."



Firehawke
Manual Meister
Reged: 08/12/06
Posts: 615
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: Ziggy100]
#351219 - 03/06/16 07:30 PM


It's really funny that you're the one going full-on hostile here. We've been trying to have a fair, constructive discussion and you're proving my point that there's unreasonable hostility towards MAME's developers as a whole.



Ziggy100
MAME Fan
Reged: 06/14/08
Posts: 287
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: MooglyGuy]
#351221 - 03/06/16 07:46 PM



Quote:


> But people like you, Ziggy - especially you - are. You are exactly that, dog turds
> floating in a miasma of piss, shit and cum provided by users just as technically
> inept and devoid of any constructive input. You've done literally nothing for the
> project other than drop your trousers and lay a big fat turd on almost everything
> we've done over the past 5 years, let alone the 19 years that you claim, which I find
> pretty hard to believe. What, exactly, do you feel entitles you to demand anything of
> us when your attitude has been nothing but recalcitrant?
>
> Since so many people on this forum like to make with the gay jokes, let me try one of
> my own: Do you honestly expect me to suck your dick if all you've ever done over the
> years has been to tell me how shitty my dick-sucking skills are? Fuck you.









Anonymous
Unregistered
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: MooglyGuy]
#351222 - 03/06/16 07:49 PM


That's the spirit!



LensLarque
MAME Fan
Reged: 02/19/08
Posts: 96
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: ]
#351223 - 03/06/16 08:41 PM


The funniest thing following the logic Vas detailed, is that it's telling us we simple users have no reason to thank MAMEdev and contributors after all, since we're nothing to them, never been, never will.

Really enlightening discussion.



R. Belmont
Cookoo for Konami
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 9552
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: LensLarque]
#351224 - 03/06/16 08:44 PM


> You will never change the fact that to the masses of users the 'museum' claim will
> forever translate to "yeah we love that part, but, er, cool story bro now iama play
> if you don't mind".

Western civilization has a core fault of a lack of long-term thinking. MAMEdev, along with Jason Scott / the Internet Archive, and several museums, are attempting to rectify some of that. The point isn't that you can play the games, the point is that in 150 years Spock can be playing Space Harrier in his handy private viewer.

> Like it or not even if MAME is a huge preservation media it is for the vast majority
> a huge gaming platform.

There's a bunch of misconceptions flying around in this thread. The devs play games too; quite a few own cabinets or a Supergun, and most have active Steam accounts. So it's not exactly waving a crucifix at a vampire to proclaim that people play video games with MAME.

> Like Vaughan I'll always be grateful for what the people who've made MAME did, but
> that disdain for the users some of you show is absurd.

And yet in the past 2 years we've added more user features than anything else. HLSL. Lua to let you make hitbox viewers, high score support, advanced AI cheats, and whatever else you want. BGFX to eventually enable accelerated 3D polygon games and to enable next-generation CRT simulation effects (and the effects it generates are fully pluggable through JSON, so you can add an HQ3X pass or a toon shader or whatever you like). A friendly built-in UI. LAN play for Sega Model 1 games. Translations to over 2 dozen languages instead of forcing English down the world's throat. GroovyMAME features incoming for CRT and cabinet users. Even the relicensing is ultimately a user feature; it allows licensed commercial emulators to be based on the emulation quality and features of MAME instead of the crap you often see in those packages.

> It's been mentioned after all: bannister is a more elite place, go have a chat with
> gentlemen coders here and leave the stupid plebe to memeworld.

It's not elite; anyone who can read the instructions can sign up, and in general nobody gets banned (if they get fresh with the devs, they get treated to the uncensored words of Haze, Moogly, and Vas Crabb, which tends to keep people in line ;-) Dullaron did it, I dunno what anyone else's problem is.

> Maybe in some years when OLED or similar (4K or more) with gaming monitor variants
> will hopefuly become widely available and affordable.

I recently picked up a 4K monitor. It's definitely the future, now we just need video cards capable of driving them well.



R. Belmont
Cookoo for Konami
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 9552
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: uman]
#351226 - 03/06/16 08:48 PM


> Now lets assume, that
> there are indeed some MAME derivates and to make you a little angry (like you do with
> your states) , Retroarch had become very popular and has a huge fanbase. Would you
> still think that the majority of the developers would still stay at official MAME?

Retroarch disables and removes all of MAME's developer-support features. You literally can't develop or debug MAME drivers on it, so developers would naturally stick with real MAME.



uman
MAME Fan
Reged: 04/15/12
Posts: 351
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: R. Belmont]
#351227 - 03/06/16 09:31 PM


> Retroarch disables and removes all of MAME's developer-support features. You
> literally can't develop or debug MAME drivers on it, so developers would naturally
> stick with real MAME.

Yeah, i am aware of these facts. Its a crippled core, no debugger etc. in it, but i think you get the point what i have tried to say . Replace RA with a fictive MAME derivative, that would have the tools. Its just a silly poke from me here. You cant deny that a huge user base, isnt attractive for a developer. Where would be the sense in developing, if really nobody pays attention to the product . Of course its very honourable and noble, that the devs are mainly developing for preservation purposes, but a non-existent userbase would be a median catastrophe.
We all know that all of this will not happen anytime soon (hopefully never) , no matter how the changes over time will turn out.



MooglyGuy
Renegade MAME Dev
Reged: 09/01/05
Posts: 1530
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: uman]
#351228 - 03/06/16 09:44 PM


> > Retroarch disables and removes all of MAME's developer-support features. You
> > literally can't develop or debug MAME drivers on it, so developers would naturally
> > stick with real MAME.
>
> Yeah, i am aware of these facts. Its a crippled core, no debugger etc. in it, but i
> think you get the point what i have tried to say . Replace RA with a fictive MAME
> derivative, that would have the tools. Its just a silly poke from me here. You cant
> deny that a huge user base, isnt attractive for a developer. Where would be the sense
> in developing, if really nobody pays attention to the product . Of course its very
> honourable and noble, that the devs are mainly developing for preservation purposes,
> but a non-existent userbase would be a median catastrophe.
> We all know that all of this will not happen anytime soon (hopefully never) , no
> matter how the changes over time will turn out.

No, I don't think that anyone gets your point. If we make up whatever fantasy world appeals to us, then we can just as easily ask what the MAME team's reaction would be if someone figured out that unicorns were able to play all games full-speed and can project a perfect CRT-quality image from their anuses onto the nearest wall. If we're just making up shit to try to prove a point, then I'm pretty sure anyone you're arguing against can come up with just as far-fetched a situation.



Haze
Reged: 09/23/03
Posts: 4367
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: Ziggy100]
#351231 - 03/06/16 10:28 PM


> > But people like you, Ziggy - especially you - are. You are exactly that, dog turds
> > floating in a miasma of piss, shit and cum provided by users just as technically
> > inept and devoid of any constructive input. You've done literally nothing for the
> > project other than drop your trousers and lay a big fat turd on almost everything
> > we've done over the past 5 years, let alone the 19 years that you claim, which I
> find
> > pretty hard to believe. What, exactly, do you feel entitles you to demand anything
> of
> > us when your attitude has been nothing but recalcitrant?
> >
> > Since so many people on this forum like to make with the gay jokes, let me try one
> of
> > my own: Do you honestly expect me to suck your dick if all you've ever done over
> the
> > years has been to tell me how shitty my dick-sucking skills are? Fuck you.

I'm inclined to agree with Moogly here, I don't actually recall seeing a single post you've made that in reaction to a decision that isn't just antagonizing things / trolling / insulting the devs / insulting the project.

It's *exactly* what we mean when we say entitled users shitposting.

The project is actually in the best place, and best state it's ever been in.



uman
MAME Fan
Reged: 04/15/12
Posts: 351
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: MooglyGuy]
#351232 - 03/06/16 10:33 PM


I didnt start the fantasies, but your description was hilarious, laughed hard.



LensLarque
MAME Fan
Reged: 02/19/08
Posts: 96
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: R. Belmont]
#351237 - 03/06/16 11:55 PM


I know I'm not the center of the world RB, but you know what ? It's always a waste of time trying to interact with mamedev and contributors in the end.



Vas Crabb
BOFH
Reged: 12/13/05
Posts: 3725
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: uman]
#351246 - 03/07/16 06:07 AM


> You cant
> deny that a huge user base, isnt attractive for a developer. Where would be the sense
> in developing, if really nobody pays attention to the product . Of course its very
> honourable and noble, that the devs are mainly developing for preservation purposes,
> but a non-existent userbase would be a median catastrophe.

Look, with decades of experience contributing to source-available software projects, I can tell you in no uncertain terms that the size of the userbase makes absolutely no difference to how attractive an unpaid project is. You have to want to work on it for yourself, on your own terms. It really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. I find it laughable that you're trying to tell us how it works, when we're the ones who've actually been doing this for decades.



Firehawke
Manual Meister
Reged: 08/12/06
Posts: 615
Send PM


Re: The Sky is Falling! Or not. new [Re: LensLarque]
#351247 - 03/07/16 07:02 AM


Ever stop to think that just maybe, just once in your life, you might be wrong?



Traso
MAME Fan
Reged: 01/15/13
Posts: 2688
Send PM


Now this is more like the MAMEWorld of old..... new [Re: Firehawke]
#351304 - 03/08/16 06:06 AM


though nothing can replace the flavour of that innocent age. (I've been watching My Favorite Year. It's been too long! WATCH IT. NOW.)

Civilians always gotta Fight the Man.

Pony up and update your shit. Or don't, and stay back. It ain't a hard equation....just a hard emotion. POHHH.


Pages: 1

MAMEWorld Central >> EmuChat
View all threads Index   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Extra information Permissions
Moderator:  redk9258, URherenow, Tafoid 
1 registered and 43 anonymous users are browsing this forum.
You cannot start new topics
You cannot reply to topics
HTML is enabled
UBBCode is enabled
Thread views: 6381