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psykosonik
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Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME
#359840 - 10/23/16 09:39 AM


Dear, Devs

Since the great work of revers-engineering the undocumented Zeus hardware and implementing it in Mame, the MK community has enjoyed the nostalgia of seeing the arcade version of MK4 running in MAME (special thanks to Aaron Giles and everyone else involved)!

The arcade version really stands out over the home ports as its graphics are much better (higher polygon counts , rendering effects etc) and it's simply THE version that the MK4 arcade players have grown up with and recognize.

Unfortunately the current Zeus drivers don't represent the game in its full glory yet.
For example there are many lighting/particle effects unemulated that really improve the game and can make the game feel from an old crude quick project to a polished modern high-profile game.

The following screenshots will give an impression of the missing effects:








The whole MK community would love to see a more complete MK4 driver someday that could render the game in its full glory.

Here is also a short comparison video I've made as well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sGbYLWFH5g

We hope this information can help and spark some interest and if we can help, let us know.

Best regards,
ded on behalf of the MK community (TestYourMight.com; MKSecrets.net)

Edited by psykosonik (10/24/16 05:43 PM)



Envisaged0ne
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: psykosonik]
#359856 - 10/23/16 10:40 PM


LOL! We ALL have improvements we want to see, so asking them in the forums isn't going to help your cause. Otherwise they'd get flooded with requests (which I'm sure they already do!). Heck, I'd love for them to finally fix the SF3 games, but I'm not going to bug them about it. They're aware that the emulation isn't perfect. As you can see that big notice every time you run the game. The devs will work on it when they want to. But I'm sure they're happy that you're speaking for the whole "MK community"

Edited by Envisaged0ne (10/23/16 10:44 PM)



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psykosonik
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Envisaged0ne]
#359857 - 10/23/16 10:55 PM


hey, Envisaged0ne!

I was asked to post here. A lot of people also do not realize how the ZEUS features also affected the game and I wanted to show it.

I really do not want to flood or bug anyone and in case the thread is offensive to the DEVS, please, delete it.

We will be happy whenever its done, no matter when that will be



SmitdoggAdministrator
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: psykosonik]
#359858 - 10/23/16 11:04 PM


The truth is that people act like requests like this are annoying and lead to deadends but in reality they very often lead to sparking interest and driver fixes. People might as well request more.



psykosonik
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Smitdogg]
#359860 - 10/23/16 11:07 PM


Thank you, Smitdogg!

I've also made a comparison video here in case there is interest:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sGbYLWFH5g



MooglyGuy
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: psykosonik]
#359861 - 10/23/16 11:47 PM


> Thank you, Smitdogg!
>
> I've also made a comparison video here in case there is interest:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sGbYLWFH5g

Reference screenshots and reference video are actually very helpful indeed. Thanks!



Haze
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: MooglyGuy]
#359862 - 10/23/16 11:52 PM


> > Thank you, Smitdogg!
> >
> > I've also made a comparison video here in case there is interest:
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sGbYLWFH5g
>
> Reference screenshots and reference video are actually very helpful indeed. Thanks!

the problem is the main differences I see are that the arcade captures are a bit blurrier (from a CRT) and seem to all be overly dark with a green tint on everything that isn't bright while the other colours look washed out, like the display is broken... Is this really an effect, or a faulty monitor / PCB?

the MAME shots are actually less glitchy in places tho for example one of the animations of Scorpions clothing is very glitchy on the PCB video.

there do seem to be some shadows missing in MAME, but I'm not sure how much of those videos is showing emulation problems and how much is a dodgy monitor...



psykosonik
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Haze]
#359863 - 10/24/16 12:07 AM


Hey, Haze!

This was captured directly from arcade pcb's video signal to a CGA to VGA converter.

The actual game is very dark, it is meant to be this way.

The lightening, shadowing and etc are all due to ZEUS features.

Midway Team spoke how they wanted to achieve that in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vk7oLgbLuE

You can't be serious that MAME looks better. Check the below screenshot for example (you cannot notice Kai's fingers and the sky from The Tomb is completely missing:


Edited by psykosonik (10/24/16 12:10 AM)



Master O
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Smitdogg]
#359864 - 10/24/16 12:38 AM


> The truth is that people act like requests like this are annoying and lead to
> deadends but in reality they very often lead to sparking interest and driver fixes.
> People might as well request more.

Funny, all I ever hear from mamedevs is how they find such requests irritating and want the people who request these things to drop dead.



"Note to Noobs:

We are glad to help you but simply posting that something does not work is not going to lead to you getting help. The more information you can supply defining your problem, the less likely it will be that you will get smart-alec replies.

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Haze
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: psykosonik]
#359865 - 10/24/16 12:40 AM


> Hey, Haze!
>
> This was captured directly from arcade pcb's video signal to a CGA to VGA converter.
>
> The actual game is very dark, it is meant to be this way.
>
> The lightening, shadowing and etc are all due to ZEUS features.
>
> Midway Team spoke how they wanted to achieve that in this video:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vk7oLgbLuE
>
> You can't be serious that MAME looks better. Check the below screenshot for example
> (you cannot notice Kai's fingers and the sky from The Tomb is completely missing:

fair enough, in that case, yeah they've made an odd design decision to give everything a horrible tint of green. in that case I guess it could help to have the reference, because anybody implementing it might have ended up thinking it was wrong and backing out their changes.

anyway I was talking about 1:06 - 1:12 on the video, where the shadowing or whatever it is around the middle of scorpion looks really glitchy on the pcb.



SmitdoggAdministrator
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Master O]
#359866 - 10/24/16 12:42 AM


Then you haven't been paying attention, even to this very thread.



Master O
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Smitdogg]
#359869 - 10/24/16 01:41 AM


> Then you haven't been paying attention, even to this very thread.

I obviously know about this thread, since I'm posting in it. The point I was making is that generally, Mamedevs don't like it when people pester them. Of course, there are times when that isn't the case, but it's certainly not what I've normally observed.



"Note to Noobs:

We are glad to help you but simply posting that something does not work is not going to lead to you getting help. The more information you can supply defining your problem, the less likely it will be that you will get smart-alec replies.

C.D.~"



SmitdoggAdministrator
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Master O]
#359871 - 10/24/16 01:48 AM


Maybe not 10-20 years ago or maybe not from Belmont replies but absolutely unequivocally these types of requests in recent years have led to many, many, many immediate driver updates to the point where I'm saying honestly people might as well bring them on. I was surprised at first too but it has happened over and over and over. Devs forget about stuff, or that they might be interested in stuff sometimes only arises from posts. Anyway whatever, you think I'm talking out of my ass? Whatever.



Master O
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Smitdogg]
#359874 - 10/24/16 02:38 AM


> Maybe not 10-20 years ago or maybe not from Belmont replies but absolutely
> unequivocally these types of requests in recent years have led to many, many, many
> immediate driver updates to the point where I'm saying honestly people might as well
> bring them on. I was surprised at first too but it has happened over and over and
> over. Devs forget about stuff, or that they might be interested in stuff sometimes
> only arises from posts. Anyway whatever, you think I'm talking out of my ass?
> Whatever.

No, I believe you. I was merely stating what I've seen up until now. Ultimately, that depends on the game(s) and mamedev(s) in question.



"Note to Noobs:

We are glad to help you but simply posting that something does not work is not going to lead to you getting help. The more information you can supply defining your problem, the less likely it will be that you will get smart-alec replies.

C.D.~"



TafoidAdministrator
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Master O]
#359875 - 10/24/16 04:10 AM


> > Maybe not 10-20 years ago or maybe not from Belmont replies but absolutely
> > unequivocally these types of requests in recent years have led to many, many, many
> > immediate driver updates to the point where I'm saying honestly people might as
> well
> > bring them on. I was surprised at first too but it has happened over and over and
> > over. Devs forget about stuff, or that they might be interested in stuff sometimes
> > only arises from posts. Anyway whatever, you think I'm talking out of my ass?
> > Whatever.
>
> No, I believe you. I was merely stating what I've seen up until now. Ultimately, that
> depends on the game(s) and mamedev(s) in question.

The biggest difference from this approach to other less desirable 'fix this' requests is that this one actually has examples of exactly what is wrong and where see it. Most of the others that are dismissed and are simply text saying stuff like "You should really fix xxxxxx because it doesn't have sound", "I really wish you would finally fix xxxxxx because it doesn't look like it ever looked in the arcade", or maybe "Given how powerful computers are nowadays there is no reason that xxxxx games cannot run at full speed". Those type of requests don't help.. at all.



gregf
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Tafoid]
#359884 - 10/24/16 11:50 AM


>> > Maybe not 10-20 years ago or maybe not from Belmont replies but absolutely
>> > unequivocally these types of requests in recent years have led to many, many, many
>> > immediate driver updates to the point where I'm saying honestly people might as
>> well
>> > bring them on. I was surprised at first too but it has happened over and over and
>> > over. Devs forget about stuff, or that they might be interested in stuff sometimes
>> > only arises from posts.


>The biggest difference from this approach to other less desirable 'fix this' requests is
>that this one actually has examples of exactly what is wrong and where see it. Most of
>the others that are dismissed and are simply text saying stuff like "You should really
>fix xxxxxx because it doesn't have sound", "I really wish you would finally fix xxxxxx
>because it doesn't look like it ever looked in the arcade", or maybe "Given how powerful
>computers are nowadays there is no reason that xxxxx games cannot run at full speed".
>Those type of requests don't help.. at all.



The example is a reminder from the old days era of old MAME.net web site where users like PacDude would post unhelpful crap and then bitch at various MAME contributors (devs etc.) and then post complaints about various MAME emulation bugs ruining his favorite games whether they were Asteroids or Slither.

"If any MAMEdev ruins Slither in any such way, they will be in big trouble with me." That's probably what PacDude would probably say if he were still around.



MooglyGuy
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Tafoid]
#359885 - 10/24/16 12:54 PM


> The biggest difference from this approach to other less desirable 'fix this' requests
> is that this one actually has examples of exactly what is wrong and where see it.
> Most of the others that are dismissed and are simply text saying stuff like "You
> should really fix xxxxxx because it doesn't have sound", "I really wish you would
> finally fix xxxxxx because it doesn't look like it ever looked in the arcade", or
> maybe "Given how powerful computers are nowadays there is no reason that xxxxx games
> cannot run at full speed". Those type of requests don't help.. at all.

Ding ding ding ding ding! We have a winner!

MAME devs generally don't mind requests, as long as they're not in the form of verbal abuse and recrimination, and especially if they come with reference screenshots and videos.



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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Master O]
#359888 - 10/24/16 02:09 PM


> I obviously know about this thread, since I'm posting in it. The point I was making
> is that generally, Mamedevs don't like it when people pester them.

We dislike being pestered based on someone's claimed-infallible memory of, say, hi-def Pac-Man that they're positive they played in 1982.

We like being pestered based on high-quality PCB captures with comparison MAME shots, like this.



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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Haze]
#359889 - 10/24/16 02:15 PM


> the problem is the main differences I see are that the arcade captures are a bit
> blurrier (from a CRT) and seem to all be overly dark with a green tint on everything
> that isn't bright while the other colours look washed out, like the display is
> broken... Is this really an effect, or a faulty monitor / PCB?

I have to agree - the major difference isn't effects, it's monitor gamma. Additionally, the monitor the arcade footage is from has its green gun overbiased, making everything a sickly green. MAME's colors are more true-to-life; the dirt is actually brown instead of pea-soup, and so on.



randyth
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Haze]
#359890 - 10/24/16 02:44 PM


> > > Thank you, Smitdogg!
> > >
> > > I've also made a comparison video here in case there is interest:
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sGbYLWFH5g
> >
> > Reference screenshots and reference video are actually very helpful indeed. Thanks!
>
>
> the problem is the main differences I see are that the arcade captures are a bit
> blurrier (from a CRT) and seem to all be overly dark with a green tint on everything
> that isn't bright while the other colours look washed out, like the display is
> broken... Is this really an effect, or a faulty monitor / PCB?
>
> the MAME shots are actually less glitchy in places tho for example one of the
> animations of Scorpions clothing is very glitchy on the PCB video.
>
> there do seem to be some shadows missing in MAME, but I'm not sure how much of those
> videos is showing emulation problems and how much is a dodgy monitor...


I recently played the original MK4 board and the darkness and shadowings are indeed overly absent in the arcade.

I believe the differences in the video/pics are mostly some (minor) shadowing and lighting effects that are missing on the character models. Other differences seem to be due to some kind of anisotropic filtering (or maybe some sort of scanline effect?).

I made some screencaps of the video where the shadowing differences are more clear. I think a capture in the original resolution would be more clear.

















Also, Haze, you are a legend. Thank you for the CPS3 thrills!

Edited by randyth (10/24/16 03:14 PM)



psykosonik
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Haze]
#359891 - 10/24/16 05:40 PM


You have your point, Haze!

I agree that ZEUS shadowing/lightening are kinda weird, but it is what made the game to look great.Even reviews that did not like the gameplay back in 1997, praised the graphics - that could be easily checked also on alt.google.groups

However, I do believe we are not talking about those effects only, as whole layers might be missing:


Please, notice the grid in the background. I'm sure you will agree it is not only brightening difference.

I can also check if YourMKArcadeSource can provide more clear screenshots if you want, as I saw people think the video quality capture was bad. He has already contributed with several rare MK roms and said to ping him, in case of any assistance, as he would be more than happy to help.

Edited by psykosonik (10/25/16 08:27 PM)



Haze
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: psykosonik]
#359893 - 10/24/16 07:24 PM


> You have your point, Haze!
>
> I agree that ZEUS shadowing/lightening are kinda weird, but it is what made the game
> to look great.Even reviews that did not like the gameplay back in 1997, praised the
> graphics - that could be easily checked also on alt.google.groups
>
> However, I do believe we are not talking about those effects only, as whole layers
> might be missing:
>
>
> Please, notice the grid in the background. I'm sure you will agree it is not only
> brightening difference.
>
> I can also check if YourMKArcadeSource can provide more clear screenshots if you
> want, as I saw people think the video quality capture was bad. He has already
> contributed with several rare MK roms and said to ping him, in case of any
> assistance, as he would be more than happy to help.

it's just a shading effect, looks like some kind of Gouraud shading or similar, different darkness / colour levels for each corner of the polygon with the value interpolated across it.

obviously without the shading things look a little more 'flat' but there are no missing layers.



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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Haze]
#359895 - 10/24/16 08:51 PM


> it's just a shading effect, looks like some kind of Gouraud shading or similar,
> different darkness / colour levels for each corner of the polygon with the value
> interpolated across it.

Agreed, it's almost certainly Gouraud.



psykosonik
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: R. Belmont]
#359917 - 10/25/16 11:44 AM


I see. Thanks for the explanation. I have noticed from the below link: http://wiki.mamedev.org/index.php/Midway_Zeus

that there are FIFO commands still not clear. I assume those are responsible for all the missing effects, including gouraud?



Ville Linde
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: psykosonik]
#359922 - 10/25/16 06:22 PM


> I see. Thanks for the explanation. I have noticed from the below link:
> http://wiki.mamedev.org/index.php/Midway_Zeus
>
> that there are FIFO commands still not clear. I assume those are responsible for all
> the missing effects, including gouraud?

So, the light vector and vertex normals are all known? Lighting should be fairly trivial to implement.



psykosonik
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Ville Linde]
#359924 - 10/25/16 07:12 PM


Thank you for reply, Ville Linde!

I'm not sure what you mean by trivial, but i've made few more screenshots to compare, hopefully they would be useful:


Notice Fujin's pants how they are black/green.






Missing sky on Sonya, Jarek, Jax, Kai and Raiden endings (and The Tomb stage obliviously).

PS. Just a small clarification - ZEUS 2 is used for The Grid and few other games. I am certain MK4 use ZEUS 1.



Phil Bennett
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Ville Linde]
#360335 - 11/12/16 10:19 PM


> So, the light vector and vertex normals are all known? Lighting should be fairly
> trivial to implement.

Here's a very half-arsed attempt at implementing lighting:

Before:


After:


Before:


After:


I actually have an MK4 PCB that was given to me by Aaron. I've been meaning to write a test program to thoroughly exercise the hardware but haven't yet gotten round to it. There's so much unknown state and with only two games produced for the hardware, there aren't enough use cases to infer what does what. Did I mention that the ZEUS chip has downloadable microcode too? :S



Envisaged0ne
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Phil Bennett]
#360342 - 11/13/16 01:53 AM


That looks a lot better!



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tedgreen
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Phil Bennett]
#360351 - 11/13/16 07:26 PM


> Did I mention that the ZEUS chip has downloadable microcode too?

Any idea on what the ISA is or do you think it is some sort of custom commands?

And what ever happened to the Zeus design, did it get sold to some other company or just mothballed forever?



Master O
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Phil Bennett]
#360363 - 11/13/16 10:04 PM


> > So, the light vector and vertex normals are all known? Lighting should be fairly
> > trivial to implement.
>
> Here's a very half-arsed attempt at implementing lighting:
>
> Before:
>
>
> After:
>
>
> Before:
>
>
> After:
>
>
> I actually have an MK4 PCB that was given to me by Aaron. I've been meaning to write
> a test program to thoroughly exercise the hardware but haven't yet gotten round to
> it. There's so much unknown state and with only two games produced for the hardware,
> there aren't enough use cases to infer what does what. Did I mention that the ZEUS
> chip has downloadable microcode too? :S

Since this thread is all about asking mamedevs about game status, can I still assume you're not particularly interested in looking at Tobe! Polystars for the time being?



"Note to Noobs:

We are glad to help you but simply posting that something does not work is not going to lead to you getting help. The more information you can supply defining your problem, the less likely it will be that you will get smart-alec replies.

C.D.~"



Phil Bennett
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Master O]
#360377 - 11/14/16 01:15 AM


> Since this thread is all about asking mamedevs about game status, can I still assume
> you're not particularly interested in looking at Tobe! Polystars for the time being?

One thing at a time please



Master O
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Phil Bennett]
#360378 - 11/14/16 01:17 AM


> > Since this thread is all about asking mamedevs about game status, can I still
> assume
> > you're not particularly interested in looking at Tobe! Polystars for the time
> being?
>
> One thing at a time please

That was the point of my question. I figured that was the case. Thanks for clarifying. Out of curiosity, did your house sale go well?



"Note to Noobs:

We are glad to help you but simply posting that something does not work is not going to lead to you getting help. The more information you can supply defining your problem, the less likely it will be that you will get smart-alec replies.

C.D.~"



Phil Bennett
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: tedgreen]
#360393 - 11/14/16 08:19 PM


> > Did I mention that the ZEUS chip has downloadable microcode too?
>
> Any idea on what the ISA is or do you think it is some sort of custom commands?

A custom ISA for driving the various units involved in the transform and lighting phase, I imagine.



Master O
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Phil Bennett]
#360397 - 11/15/16 05:56 AM


> > > Did I mention that the ZEUS chip has downloadable microcode too?
> >
> > Any idea on what the ISA is or do you think it is some sort of custom commands?
>
> A custom ISA for driving the various units involved in the transform and lighting
> phase, I imagine.

An arcade game with downloadable microcode, huh... Now that's unusual for its era.



"Note to Noobs:

We are glad to help you but simply posting that something does not work is not going to lead to you getting help. The more information you can supply defining your problem, the less likely it will be that you will get smart-alec replies.

C.D.~"



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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Master O]
#360400 - 11/15/16 06:38 PM


> An arcade game with downloadable microcode, huh... Now that's unusual for its era.

Not that unusual. System 23 also downloads what may be a microcode block on boot, and there's a few other cases.



R. Belmont
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Phil Bennett]
#360401 - 11/15/16 06:40 PM


Stiletto's been talking to the guy who claimed to have Zeus 2 docs, hopefully that'll yield something interesting.



Master O
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: R. Belmont]
#360409 - 11/16/16 12:16 AM


> > An arcade game with downloadable microcode, huh... Now that's unusual for its era.
>
> Not that unusual. System 23 also downloads what may be a microcode block on boot, and
> there's a few other cases.

Would that even be emulateable, without the source from where it's downloaded (presumably internet)?



R. Belmont
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Master O]
#360421 - 11/16/16 05:21 PM


> Would that even be emulateable, without the source from where it's downloaded
> (presumably internet)?

It is if we know (or can guess) what processor is at the other end running it. After all, the main programs for these games are effectively binary soup, but since we know it's for a 68000 or 6502 or an ARM or whatever things fall into place pretty quickly.



Haze
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Master O]
#360426 - 11/16/16 10:19 PM


> > > An arcade game with downloadable microcode, huh... Now that's unusual for its
> era.
> >
> > Not that unusual. System 23 also downloads what may be a microcode block on boot,
> and
> > there's a few other cases.
>
> Would that even be emulateable, without the source from where it's downloaded
> (presumably internet)?

'download' is not being used in the networking sense, this has nothing to do with the internet, or any other network / file transfers.



Olivier Galibert
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: R. Belmont]
#360443 - 11/18/16 12:37 PM


> > Would that even be emulateable, without the source from where it's downloaded
> > (presumably internet)?
>
> It is if we know (or can guess) what processor is at the other end running it. After
> all, the main programs for these games are effectively binary soup, but since we know
> it's for a 68000 or 6502 or an ARM or whatever things fall into place pretty quickly.

Except it's probably a fpga or something similar so we're fucked :-)

OG.



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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Olivier Galibert]
#360451 - 11/18/16 06:51 PM


> Except it's probably a fpga or something similar so we're fucked :-)

For S23 I'd be fairly surprised if it wasn't just a later TMS32xxx. Namco evolved their 3D hardware in a much more linear way than Sega.



Phil Bennett
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Olivier Galibert]
#360453 - 11/18/16 07:04 PM


> > It is if we know (or can guess) what processor is at the other end running it.
> After
> > all, the main programs for these games are effectively binary soup, but since we
> know
> > it's for a 68000 or 6502 or an ARM or whatever things fall into place pretty
> quickly.
>
> Except it's probably a fpga or something similar so we're fucked :-)
>
> OG.

Yeah, it's a custom instruction set but I'm quite optimistic it can be at least partially figured out.

The game uploads what appears to be a kernel that is used to parse FIFO commands (which vary subtly between games) and a set of different programs for driving the geometry/pixel pipeline. MK4 seems to use 4:

1. Framebuffer color and depth clear
2. Transform and lighting
3. Same as (2) but for x-flipped geometry
4. Non-lit geometry? (e.g. shadows and the run meter)

The game also uploads light tables to accompany programs (2) and (3).

Phil



psykosonik
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Phil Bennett]
#360481 - 11/20/16 01:26 PM


That is awesome! Please, keep us informed and if we can help somehow. Thank you for your work on this!



randyth
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Phil Bennett]
#360562 - 11/23/16 05:21 PM


Awesome Phil!!
That indeed looks much closer to the original game!

Very exciting progress!!



psykosonik
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Phil Bennett]
#360911 - 12/04/16 09:10 PM


Phil, you think those changes will be applied in the next MAME version?

While on the subject, there is also another annoying stuff - when pressing "W" key (WSAD are directions for most people) a box pops up and displays "offs = 000000" and the video scrambles. Is there a way to fix/disable that as well?

Thanks!



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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: psykosonik]
#360913 - 12/04/16 10:54 PM


> Phil, you think those changes will be applied in the next MAME version?

I'm concentrating more on improving documentation and understanding of the hardware than making actual source changes at the moment. I've written a special monitor program for the MK4/Z-Plus PCB that will allow me to communicate with it via the serial port and perform actions such as reading/writing memory and Zeus state, dumping frame buffers and patching game code in RAM on the fly. If it works (as I'll find out next week when I get my supergun setup working), this will be a massive boon to the emulation effort.

> While on the subject, there is also another annoying stuff - when pressing "W" key
> (WSAD are directions for most people) a box pops up and displays "offs = 000000" and
> the video scrambles. Is there a way to fix/disable that as well?

That's the wave RAM viewer. It ought to be mapped to another key combination or disabled.

Phil



evh347
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Phil Bennett]
#360942 - 12/05/16 10:46 PM


> > Phil, you think those changes will be applied in the next MAME version?
>
> I'm concentrating more on improving documentation and understanding of the hardware
> than making actual source changes at the moment. I've written a special monitor
> program for the MK4/Z-Plus PCB that will allow me to communicate with it via the
> serial port and perform actions such as reading/writing memory and Zeus state,
> dumping frame buffers and patching game code in RAM on the fly. If it works (as I'll
> find out next week when I get my supergun setup working), this will be a massive boon
> to the emulation effort.
>
> > While on the subject, there is also another annoying stuff - when pressing "W" key
> > (WSAD are directions for most people) a box pops up and displays "offs = 000000"
> and
> > the video scrambles. Is there a way to fix/disable that as well?
>
> That's the wave RAM viewer. It ought to be mapped to another key combination or
> disabled.
>
> Phil

Phil, is 'disabling the wave RAM viewer' something the user can do or does that have to be resolved on the emulation side of things?

If its a user setting, can you please advise on how to resolve? Thanks.



randyth
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Phil Bennett]
#361120 - 12/09/16 02:01 PM


That sounds awesome Phil. It sounds like you're going deep with this. Your courageous effort is very appreciated



jonwil
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Phil Bennett]
#361137 - 12/10/16 01:38 AM


I wonder what other systems out there could be improved by doing the same thing (writing trojans that talk to the board and reverse engineering it that way)



getnbizzy
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Phil Bennett]
#361571 - 12/22/16 08:11 AM


I'm having this same issue but I can't find the wave ram viewer. Did you get yours fixed?

TIA.



psykosonik
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: getnbizzy]
#361750 - 12/25/16 02:07 PM


Nope. I can't figure out how to disable it as well.

Phil, can you share a tip and if there is any progress as well?

Thanks.



MooglyGuy
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: psykosonik]
#361756 - 12/25/16 03:44 PM


> Nope. I can't figure out how to disable it as well.
>
> Phil, can you share a tip and if there is any progress as well?
>
> Thanks.

You can see the commit history for the file here: https://github.com/mamedev/mame/commits/master/src/devices/video/zeus2.cpp

For what it's worth, some developers consider it rude to ask if there is progress when anyone can see at any time whether or not there is progress by browsing the public source code repository and viewing the commit history. The MAME team is not in the business of operating under secrecy.

You can see from the changes at this link that the debug functionality which was bound to certain keys has since been commented out: https://github.com/mamedev/mame/commit/02ba08bd2d7b59b3b1740265f1f13b8688e93f1c

It appears that that commit was made 18 days ago, which was after the release of 0.180. Therefore, if you download 0.180, it won't have the updates that were made after it was released.

If you would like to try the latest version of the driver and see what changes have been made, you can either wait for 0.181 to be released in 3 days, or you can follow the instructions here to compile your own development version based on what is currently checked into Github: http://www.mamedev.org/tools/

It's pretty straightforward to build if you don't want to wait, but as I mentioned, the next version will be out in 3 days anyway.



CiroConsentino
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: MooglyGuy]
#361772 - 12/25/16 10:50 PM


Just a note. Not everybody knows they can follow progress of a game or driver by browsing the GIT source code.
I think this info could be put somewhere either in this forum or in mamedev website, so people would stop asking about progress in a game/driver.



MooglyGuy
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: CiroConsentino]
#361773 - 12/25/16 11:18 PM


> I think this info could be put somewhere either in this forum or in mamedev website,
> so people would stop asking about progress in a game/driver.

Yes, that sounds like a great idea. Rather than actually working on MAME, the developers should spend their time updating webpages. It's way better than my idea for people to show an ounce of sense and not nag the developers who work on MAME for free.



TafoidAdministrator
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: CiroConsentino]
#361775 - 12/26/16 01:03 AM


> Just a note. Not everybody knows they can follow progress of a game or driver by
> browsing the GIT source code.
> I think this info could be put somewhere either in this forum or in mamedev website,
> so people would stop asking about progress in a game/driver.

MAMEDEV.ORG already has an area that someone goes through great lengths to attempt to keep updated periodically with information as related towards machines which have condition flags:
http://wiki.mamedev.org/index.php/Non-Working_Drivers

You can either search for a driver (sometimes a specific setname) and come up with the reason why something is flagged. Once a condition changes, these are adjusted.

Outside of that, the users themselves owe it to themselves to do a little research by reading whatsnew.txt document with monthly releases to see if a particular issues has been resolved/improved. Of course, we always encourage all who are able to view up to the minute GIT progress which can be seen here:
https://github.com/mamedev/mame/commits/master



CiroConsentino
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: MooglyGuy]
#361777 - 12/26/16 01:36 AM


I misread what I wrote.
I meant to say, write a footnote or something in the site to warn users that if they want news on a certain driver/game, they could go to the GIT and search for it.

I didn't say to keep updating the website with news about drivers/games...



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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Tafoid]
#361778 - 12/26/16 01:38 AM


Didn't know about that part of the wiki. Thanks for the link.

But this is what I meant to say.
http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/sho...part=1&vc=1



Master O
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Tafoid]
#361779 - 12/26/16 01:57 AM


> > Just a note. Not everybody knows they can follow progress of a game or driver by
> > browsing the GIT source code.
> > I think this info could be put somewhere either in this forum or in mamedev
> website,
> > so people would stop asking about progress in a game/driver.
>
> MAMEDEV.ORG already has an area that someone goes through great lengths to attempt to
> keep updated periodically with information as related towards machines which have
> condition flags:
> http://wiki.mamedev.org/index.php/Non-Working_Drivers
>
> You can either search for a driver (sometimes a specific setname) and come up with
> the reason why something is flagged. Once a condition changes, these are adjusted.
>
> Outside of that, the users themselves owe it to themselves to do a little research by
> reading whatsnew.txt document with monthly releases to see if a particular issues has
> been resolved/improved. Of course, we always encourage all who are able to view up to
> the minute GIT progress which can be seen here:
> https://github.com/mamedev/mame/commits/master

Sounds like this one's gonna be changing in the future:


Quote:




toaplan2

ghox, ghoxj, whoopee - No sound because of missing sound MCU dump. Chip is protected. It's a QFP80 Hitachi HD647180. Whopeee misses the dump too, but is currently using one from a bootleg.





MooglyGuy
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Master O]
#361795 - 12/26/16 12:34 PM


> Sounds like this one's gonna be changing in the future:
>
>
> toaplan2
>
> ghox, ghoxj, whoopee - No sound because of missing sound MCU dump. Chip is protected.
> It's a QFP80 Hitachi HD647180. Whopeee misses the dump too, but is currently using
> one from a bootleg.

O RLY? You are aware that Ghox and Whoopee are the two games that we didn't send MCUs for to Dr. Decapitator back in the day, right? So therefore, Caps0ff doesn't have them? Or did you just look in the Toaplan driver and look for the first comment that mentioned an MCU, without bothering to understand it at all? Just stop posting.



Master O
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: MooglyGuy]
#361805 - 12/26/16 06:34 PM


> > Sounds like this one's gonna be changing in the future:
> >
> >
> > toaplan2
> >
> > ghox, ghoxj, whoopee - No sound because of missing sound MCU dump. Chip is
> protected.
> > It's a QFP80 Hitachi HD647180. Whopeee misses the dump too, but is currently using
> > one from a bootleg.
>
> O RLY? You are aware that Ghox and Whoopee are the two games that we didn't send MCUs
> for to Dr. Decapitator back in the day, right? So therefore, Caps0ff doesn't have
> them? Or did you just look in the Toaplan driver and look for the first comment that
> mentioned an MCU, without bothering to understand it at all? Just stop posting.

Wow someone's sensitive. I recall reading on the forums that somebody was going to send caps0ff the Ghox MCU and that would be added to their to-do list. That was the only reason I said that.

Anyway, I'll definitely be interested in seeing how Phil's Zeus trojaning effort goes with respect to MK4.



psykosonik
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: MooglyGuy]
#361806 - 12/26/16 07:13 PM


Thank you for the reply, MooglyGuy!

Sorry, I was not aware of the links you posted. Much appreciated it.

Edit: Would have been great if somebody can share how to turn off wave RAM viewer as well.

Thanks.

Edited by psykosonik (12/26/16 11:33 PM)



evh347
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: evh347]
#361925 - 12/28/16 10:20 PM


> > > Phil, you think those changes will be applied in the next MAME version?
> >
> > I'm concentrating more on improving documentation and understanding of the hardware
> > than making actual source changes at the moment. I've written a special monitor
> > program for the MK4/Z-Plus PCB that will allow me to communicate with it via the
> > serial port and perform actions such as reading/writing memory and Zeus state,
> > dumping frame buffers and patching game code in RAM on the fly. If it works (as
> I'll
> > find out next week when I get my supergun setup working), this will be a massive
> boon
> > to the emulation effort.
> >
> > > While on the subject, there is also another annoying stuff - when pressing "W"
> key
> > > (WSAD are directions for most people) a box pops up and displays "offs = 000000"
> > and
> > > the video scrambles. Is there a way to fix/disable that as well?
> >
> > That's the wave RAM viewer. It ought to be mapped to another key combination or
> > disabled.
> >
> > Phil
>
> Phil, is 'disabling the wave RAM viewer' something the user can do or does that have
> to be resolved on the emulation side of things?
>
> If its a user setting, can you please advise on how to resolve? Thanks.


I'm trying out MK4 in MAME181 today. Just wondering if anyone has an answer to my question above. Thanks.



tedgreen
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: evh347]
#361928 - 12/28/16 11:21 PM


> I'm trying out MK4 in MAME181 today. Just wondering if anyone has an answer to my
> question above. Thanks.

The waveram viewer was only disabled for the zeusII graphics drivers (crusn exotica, the grid, midway skins) in MAME181.
I just pushed a commit to change the waveram viewer to the 'v' key into git. You will either have to compile from source or wait for MAME 182 to be released.



gamerfan
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: psykosonik]
#362119 - 01/01/17 09:44 PM


With graphical changes and improvements in MK4 shown in the screenshots above, will they be in the next version of mame like 0.182?



Master O
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: gamerfan]
#362120 - 01/01/17 09:50 PM


> With graphical changes and improvements in MK4 shown in the screenshots above, will
> they be in the next version of mame like 0.182?

Another way you could check is by compiling Mame since you'd have the changes from the newest source code included.



gamerfan
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Master O]
#362128 - 01/02/17 12:17 AM


> > With graphical changes and improvements in MK4 shown in the screenshots above, will
> > they be in the next version of mame like 0.182?
>
> Another way you could check is by compiling Mame since you'd have the changes from
> the newest source code included.

I would not know how to compile. That's why I asked if graphical improvements and changes shown in the screenshots posted by Phil will in the mame 0.182 something like that.

Edited by gamerfan (01/02/17 02:16 AM)



anikom15
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Haze]
#362129 - 01/02/17 12:27 AM


> > Hey, Haze!
> >
> > This was captured directly from arcade pcb's video signal to a CGA to VGA
> converter.
> >
> > The actual game is very dark, it is meant to be this way.
> >
> > The lightening, shadowing and etc are all due to ZEUS features.
> >
> > Midway Team spoke how they wanted to achieve that in this video:
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vk7oLgbLuE
> >
> > You can't be serious that MAME looks better. Check the below screenshot for example
> > (you cannot notice Kai's fingers and the sky from The Tomb is completely missing:
>
> fair enough, in that case, yeah they've made an odd design decision to give
> everything a horrible tint of green. in that case I guess it could help to have the
> reference, because anybody implementing it might have ended up thinking it was wrong
> and backing out their changes.
>
> anyway I was talking about 1:06 - 1:12 on the video, where the shadowing or whatever
> it is around the middle of scorpion looks really glitchy on the pcb.

You know, I actually like the tint. From an amateur photographer's perspective it gives the whole thing an otherworldly feel. The Matrix and The Lord of the Rings also used color grading to great effect. (The Matrix was very obvious about it. It used a green tint whenever they were in the Matrix.)



Envisaged0ne
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: gamerfan]
#362132 - 01/02/17 12:44 AM


Why the heck would knowing anything about c++ or java have anything to do with compiling MAME? Have you ever actually tried to learn how to do it?



Ashura-X
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: gamerfan]
#362151 - 01/02/17 02:43 PM


http://ashura.mameworld.info/nightlybuilds/builds.html



Master O
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Ashura-X]
#362158 - 01/02/17 06:06 PM


> http://ashura.mameworld.info/nightlybuilds/builds.html

Thank you for posting that link.

Bookmarked.



CiroConsentino
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: Master O]
#362160 - 01/02/17 06:17 PM


Good to know about these nightly builds.
Why only arcade only compiles ?



Master O
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: CiroConsentino]
#362161 - 01/02/17 06:29 PM


> Good to know about these nightly builds.
> Why only arcade only compiles ?

I can't comment, since my name isn't Ashura-X.

You'll have to ask him, Ciro.



Ashura-X
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Re: Zeus/MK4 drivers improvements in MAME new [Re: CiroConsentino]
#362165 - 01/02/17 08:53 PM


Hi Ciro!

Well that´s because I collect only arcade stuff and not SL roms.



Traso
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Yeah, duh. Cos we arcade jun-kehs! (nt) new [Re: Ashura-X]
#362176 - 01/03/17 02:24 AM


> Hi Ciro!
>
> Well that´s because I collect only arcade stuff and not SL roms.


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