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TServo2049
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Bootlegs/clones that are still more "playable" than parent?
#366121 - 05/17/17 05:59 PM


Hello,

I've been following MAME on and off for the better part of two decades. I remember that there were games that wouldn't work/work properly due to unemulated protection, but a bootleg clone would be playable/more playable. That list has steadily declined over the years, but I'm going through the complete 0.185 set and would like to get rid of as many bootlegs as possible. However, I want to keep any that are more functional than the parent (has sound when the parent doesn't, works when the parent doesn't, etc.). I also would like to know if there are any examples of clones in general where this still applies (e.g., unprotected official clone sets).

In addition, if anybody knows of any clone sets (bootleg or not) which are unaffected by emulator bugs which affect the parent, I'd be glad to know which ones I should keep.

Finally, I want to look out for bootlegs/clones have improvements in performance over the parent in the "real world," not just in emulation, due to running on more powerful hardware. Someone brought up bootlegs of Double Dragon which have less slowdown due to running on souped-up hardware compared to the official boards, is there anything else like that emulated in MAME right now?

In short, I'm after any games that still have bootlegs or official clones that are more "playable" than the parent set, whether due to lack of protection, better hardware on the real board the set emulates, or lack of bugs in emulation that affect the parent. I posted on the MAME subreddit, but with Haze and others here, I'm asking here as well to get more expert insight into this. Thanks!

Edited by TServo2049 (05/18/17 08:06 PM)



Diet Go Go Fan
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Re: Bootlegs that are still more "playable" than parent? new [Re: TServo2049]
#366135 - 05/17/17 11:24 PM


The only ones I can think of are "Counter Run" and "Seibu Cup Soccer".



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Re: Bootlegs that are still more "playable" than parent? new [Re: TServo2049]
#366141 - 05/18/17 01:27 AM


Euro Cup League, bootleg of Tecmo cup 90 (not sure the name is correct).

Truly it isnt more playable, but the fact that you can choose european teams (real madrid, milan, bayern) makes me choose this before the parent.



RETRO DANUART YOUTUBE



grog
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Re: Bootlegs that are still more "playable" than parent? new [Re: TServo2049]
#366143 - 05/18/17 02:38 AM


choplifter

http://mametesters.org/view.php?id=5782


and if really fussy, perhaps play shinobi 16B version, not 16A

http://mametesters.org/view.php?id=4674



uVSthem
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Re: Bootlegs that are still more "playable" than parent? new [Re: TServo2049]
#366146 - 05/18/17 12:30 PM


Doesn't the Double Dragon bootleg have less slow down than the real Double Dragon?



gamez fan
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Re: Bootlegs that are still more "playable" than parent? new [Re: TServo2049]
#366149 - 05/18/17 04:06 PM


F-1 Dream by Capcom only the two bootlegs are playable currantly.




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Haze
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Re: Bootlegs that are still more "playable" than parent? new [Re: TServo2049]
#366151 - 05/18/17 04:43 PM


> Hello,
>
> I've been following MAME on and off for the better part of two decades. I remember
> that there were games that wouldn't work/work properly due to unemulated protection,
> but a bootleg clone would be playable/more playable. That list has steadily declined
> over the years, but I'm going through the complete 0.185 set and would like to get
> rid of as many bootlegs as possible. However, I want to keep any that are more
> functional than the parent (has sound when the parent doesn't, works when the parent
> doesn't, etc.)
>
> Anybody know of any games that still have bootlegs that are more playable than the
> parent set? I posted on the MAME subreddit, but with Haze and others here, I'm asking
> here as well to get more expert insight into this. Thanks!

the original Kangeroo should probably be marked as Not working or Imperfect Protection at least as the random event generation is wrong which means you can leech for infinite points when in the original you couldn't.

HOWEVER, in this case, even if there's a bootleg, I'm not sure it's any better, or if the bootleg just has the same bugs, but is emulated correctly because the PCB would have the same bugs too.



CTOJAH
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Re: Bootlegs that are still more "playable" than parent? new [Re: TServo2049]
#366152 - 05/18/17 05:37 PM


- Alligator Hunt (unprotected) VS Alligator Hunt
(Original is in NOT WORKING state; by the way, this is one of the best games in MAME - Gaelco's masterpiece !)
- Touch & Go (Korea,unprotected) VS Touch & Go (World)
- Oriental Legend Special / Xi You Shi E Zhuan Super (ver. 103, China, Tencent) (unprotected) VS Oriental Legend Special / Xi You Shi E Zhuan Super (ver. 101, Korean Board)
- F-1 Dream (bootleg,Set1 & 2) VS F-1 Dream
- Glass (Ver 1.1, Break Edition, Version 1994) (censored, unprotected) VS Glass (Ver 1.1, Break Edition, Version 1994)
...



Haze
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Re: Bootlegs that are still more "playable" than parent? new [Re: CTOJAH]
#366153 - 05/18/17 05:39 PM


> - Alligator Hunt (unprotected) VS Alligator Hunt
> (Original is in NOT WORKING state; by the way, this is one of the best games in MAME
> - Gaelco's masterpiece !)
> - Touch & Go (Korea,unprotected) VS Touch & Go (World)
> - Oriental Legend Special / Xi You Shi E Zhuan Super (ver. 103, China, Tencent)
> (unprotected) VS Oriental Legend Special / Xi You Shi E Zhuan Super (ver. 101, Korean
> Board)
> - F-1 Dream (bootleg,Set1 & 2) VS F-1 Dream
> - Glass (Ver 1.1, Break Edition, Version 1994) (censored, unprotected) VS Glass (Ver
> 1.1, Break Edition, Version 1994)
> ...

the question was about bootlegs, apart from f1dream these aren't bootlegs, just unprotected original sets that were released in different regions etc.



TServo2049
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Re: Bootlegs that are still more "playable" than parent? new [Re: Haze]
#366154 - 05/18/17 05:43 PM


Actually, it's still helpful to me to know if these unprotected clones run better or emulate functionality that the parent doesn't. I had no idea there were unprotected non-bootleg clones of certain games, if I did I definitely would have mentioned them in my original inquiry.

So any clones that run better than the parent are actually fair game for me. I don't want to throw those out, so any information about those will definitely help me.



TServo2049
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Re: Bootlegs that are still more "playable" than parent? new [Re: uVSthem]
#366155 - 05/18/17 05:49 PM


That was pointed out to me on the subreddit, that some of the bootlegs are essentially "supercharged" versions with more powerful/faster hardware and have less slowdown than the official boards.

That isn't exactly what I was asking about to begin with, but knowing that info I will keep those bootlegs.



CTOJAH
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Re: Bootlegs that are still more "playable" than parent? new [Re: Haze]
#366156 - 05/18/17 06:17 PM


> the question was about bootlegs, apart from f1dream these aren't bootlegs, just
> unprotected original sets that were released in different regions etc.

OP obviously wanted to know about ANY game/clone/bootleg apart from PARENT ROM.



Haze
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Re: Bootlegs that are still more "playable" than parent? new [Re: CTOJAH]
#366157 - 05/18/17 06:23 PM


> > the question was about bootlegs, apart from f1dream these aren't bootlegs, just
> > unprotected original sets that were released in different regions etc.
>
> OP obviously wanted to know about ANY game/clone/bootleg apart from PARENT ROM.

Not obviously, he specifically stated 'bootleg' many times.

Since then he has clarified that he meant any clones, but it certainly wasn't obvious from the original post, it sounded like he just wanted to be able to filter all bootlegs without filtering anything important, original clones are a very different thing.



CTOJAH
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Re: Bootlegs that are still more "playable" than parent? new [Re: Haze]
#366158 - 05/18/17 07:03 PM


> > > the question was about bootlegs, apart from f1dream these aren't bootlegs, just
> > > unprotected original sets that were released in different regions etc.
> >
> > OP obviously wanted to know about ANY game/clone/bootleg apart from PARENT ROM.
>
> Not obviously, he specifically stated 'bootleg' many times.
>
> Since then he has clarified that he meant any clones, but it certainly wasn't obvious
> from the original post, it sounded like he just wanted to be able to filter all
> bootlegs without filtering anything important, original clones are a very different
> thing.

Once again, His point was to filter out ANY clone (bootleg or not), except important ones but from GAMERS point of view, NOT important for archiving. As I understood He is a simple gamer, MAME fun like all(almost) of us simple people. We want to play games first of all, archiving is also important of course, but it came in second priority, at least for us gamers.



TServo2049
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Re: Bootlegs that are still more "playable" than parent? new [Re: CTOJAH]
#366159 - 05/18/17 07:33 PM


Haze is actually correct, I was initially only asking about bootlegs which emulated functions that were still locked behind unemulated MCUs in the parent sets (whether it's missing sound, broken graphics, or simply the parent set not running at all). I was thinking back to when games like Alcon/Slap Fight, Tokio/Scramble Formation, and others still didn't have their protection MCUs emulated, but had bootlegs which circumvented them and thus ran in MAME. With Caps0ff resuming the decapping effort after recovering most of the lost chips, and general breakthroughs in MCU emulation over the last several years, I wanted to know which bootlegs were still necessary to get an emulation of more of the "complete" game experience than the parent could provide.

However, CTOJAH is also correct that as information has come along about clones which lack emulation bugs that occur on the parent sets, bootlegs/clones which have improved performance due to running on superior hardware to the parent (despite not actually being accurate to the experience of playing a real official board), and so on, I've been listening to those comments too, and am broadening my inquiry. I edited the original post, just so it's absolutely clear that I'm now after all of the above. There's no need for an argument here.



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Re: Bootlegs that are still more "playable" than parent? new [Re: TServo2049]
#366163 - 05/19/17 12:54 AM


> I had no idea there were unprotected non-bootleg clones of certain games

In MAME context "clone" doesn't necessarily mean that somebody "cloned" the game, as in for example "bootleg of game x on Galaxian hardware".

Clone sets in MAME are typically earlier revisions of the game code, any non-World/non-English versions as well as unprotected or licensed versions and versions with more player inputs or even different sets of controls, for example Cabal which came in both joystick and trackball controlled versions.

In some cases there are little differences between regional versions of a game, like for example a certain version of Vendetta that hilariously has leather clad men forcing themselves upon your character, which aren't present in other versions of the game.

S



TServo2049
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Re: Bootlegs that are still more "playable" than parent? new [Re: Sune]
#366165 - 05/19/17 01:43 AM


> > I had no idea there were unprotected non-bootleg clones of certain games
>
> In MAME context "clone" doesn't necessarily mean that somebody "cloned" the game, as
> in for example "bootleg of game x on Galaxian hardware".
>
> Clone sets in MAME are typically earlier revisions of the game code, any
> non-World/non-English versions as well as unprotected or licensed versions and
> versions with more player inputs or even different sets of controls, for example
> Cabal which came in both joystick and trackball controlled versions.

I know all that, keep in mind that I've been following MAME intermittently since 1999 (though I've been away from it for a long time). I simply assumed that if the "parent set" board revision of a game had a protected MCU, all official or officially-licensed board versions would have the same protection, and the only boards that lacked it would be bootlegs that cracked/circumvented those chips. Evidently, this is not the case, and there are some unprotected official clones which lack protection preventing emulation of something in the parent. As with bootlegs, I am trying to learn which games this still applies to, most of the games I remember only running/running reasonably well with the bootleg sets have had emulation implemented for the problem MCUs, some within just the last few versions.

> In some cases there are little differences between regional versions of a game, like
> for example a certain version of Vendetta that hilariously has leather clad men
> forcing themselves upon your character, which aren't present in other versions of the
> game.

Yes, I fully intend to keep regional clone sets like that. I will also try to keep all "official" clones I can to start with, until I can figure out which ones have known variations between the sets/revisions. But I was just trying to figure out which extraneous bootlegs to weed out - ones that are functionally identical to the official versions, just had the title screen changed, or the copyright notice hacked out, or had the sprites hacked with no change to gameplay, or were converted to run on another game's hardware, or have additional glitches or logic differences that make the game "worse."

Sorry if I keep repeating the same things over and over.

Edited by TServo2049 (05/19/17 01:52 AM)



uVSthem
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Re: Bootlegs that are still more "playable" than parent? new [Re: TServo2049]
#366174 - 05/19/17 05:24 PM


What other clone sets are "supercharged" ?



TServo2049
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Re: Bootlegs that are still more "playable" than parent? new [Re: uVSthem]
#366178 - 05/19/17 07:47 PM


I wonder the same thing myself. Has anybody compared performance of alternate-hardware bootlegs/clones before? I'm trying to keep clones that list different hardware/processors, my system specs are probably sufficient that I can compare performance on a lot of games (at least 2D ones) without running into slowdown on the emulator side.



CTOJAH
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Re: Bootlegs that are still more "playable" than parent? new [Re: CTOJAH]
#366179 - 05/19/17 07:50 PM


> - Alligator Hunt (unprotected) VS Alligator Hunt
> (Original is in NOT WORKING state; by the way, this is one of the best games in MAME
> - Gaelco's masterpiece !)
> - Touch & Go (Korea,unprotected) VS Touch & Go (World)
> - Oriental Legend Special / Xi You Shi E Zhuan Super (ver. 103, China, Tencent)
> (unprotected) VS Oriental Legend Special / Xi You Shi E Zhuan Super (ver. 101, Korean
> Board)
> - F-1 Dream (bootleg,Set1 & 2) VS F-1 Dream
> - Glass (Ver 1.1, Break Edition, Version 1994) (censored, unprotected) VS Glass (Ver
> 1.1, Break Edition, Version 1994)
> ...

Continuing the list :

- Hacha Mecha Fighter (19th Sep. 1991, unprotected, bootleg Thunder Dragon conversion) VS Hacha Mecha Fighter (19th Sep. 1991, protected)
- Pac-Man - 25th Anniversary Edition (Rev 2.00) VS Pac-Man - 25th Anniversary Edition (Rev 3.00)
- Quartet 2 (8751 317-0010) / Quartet 2 (unprotected) VS Quartet (Rev A, 8751 315-5194)
- Shooting Master (EVG, 8751 315-5159a) VS Shooting Master (8751 315-5159)
- Space Bugger (set 2) VS Space Bugger (set 1)
- T-MEK (v2.0, prototype) VS T-MEK (v5.1, The Warlords)
- Ring Fighter (set 1 & 2) VS VS Gong Fight
- New Zero Team (V33 SYSTEM TYPE_B hardware, China?) / New Zero Team (V33 SYSTEM TYPE_B hardware) & Zero Team 2000 VS Zero Team USA (US)
...
That's all that I know of. (Perhaps You can find some Mahjong bullshit)



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Re: Bootlegs/clones that are still more "playable" than parent? new [Re: TServo2049]
#366184 - 05/19/17 09:53 PM


Sometimes a bootleg/clone is your only chance to play a game in English should you not be able to speak japanese, currantly the only way to play these ones in English is to use the following versions........

Agress - Missile Daisenryaku (English bootleg)
Kickle Cubele (Bootleg of Meikyu Jima)
Wonder Boy in Monster Land (decrypted bootleg of English, Virtual Console release)




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uVSthem
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Re: Bootlegs that are still more "playable" than parent? new [Re: TServo2049]
#366210 - 05/21/17 12:18 AM


There is Metal Slug 2 bootleg rom that fixes some of the slowdown found in the original.
http://blog.system11.org/?p=1442

And while not something that fixes slow down, there is a bootleg rom of Strider that fixes a blug in the original and also removes some censorship, but I don't believe it is support in MAME

https://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=326312

Edited by uVSthem (05/21/17 12:24 AM)



TServo2049
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Re: Bootlegs that are still more "playable" than parent? new [Re: uVSthem]
#366213 - 05/21/17 01:24 AM


I am only concerned about ROMs which are actually supported in the official MAME, at least for now.



uVSthem
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Re: Bootlegs that are still more "playable" than parent? new [Re: TServo2049]
#366236 - 05/21/17 10:37 PM


I understand, maybe it will be added to the office MAME builds one day. I am pretty sure HBMAME and MAMEFX run it.

There are enhanced roms for Super Hang-On and Afterburner 2 I would like to see added to MAME. The Outrun Enhanced rom is in MAME so why not add these as well?

http://reassembler.blogspot.com/2011/08/outrun-enhanced-edition.html



uVSthem
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Re: Bootlegs/clones that are still more "playable" than parent? new [Re: gamez fan]
#366237 - 05/21/17 10:49 PM


I had no idea Kickle Cubele had an English translation other than the NES game.

Now if someone could translate Wonder Momo and Bravoman.



CTOJAH
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Re: Bootlegs/clones that are still more "playable" than parent? new [Re: uVSthem]
#366238 - 05/22/17 12:07 AM


> I had no idea Kickle Cubele had an English translation other than the NES game.
>
> Now if someone could translate Wonder Momo and Bravoman.

???
Unfortunately Kickle Cubele is NOT translated to English !
This game is a real hidden gem in MAME.



uVSthem
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Re: Bootlegs/clones that are still more "playable" than parent? new [Re: CTOJAH]
#366240 - 05/22/17 12:13 AM


Yeah, found that out the hard way about 20 minutes ago.



CTOJAH
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Re: Bootlegs/clones that are still more "playable" than parent? new [Re: uVSthem]
#366241 - 05/22/17 12:21 AM


...Also, Wonder Momo is already in English, so there is no need of any translation.



uVSthem
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Re: Bootlegs/clones that are still more "playable" than parent? new [Re: CTOJAH]
#366249 - 05/22/17 01:05 PM


Not all of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x56sBExFfQ

I know I'm being picky here, the game is fully playable the way it is. The only text not english is the title screen and the level intro cards.



gamez fan
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Re: Bootlegs/clones that are still more "playable" than parent? new [Re: CTOJAH]
#366251 - 05/22/17 03:57 PM



Quote:



Unfortunately Kickle Cubele is NOT translated to English !
This game is a real hidden gem in MAME.





Yeah, sorry about that i could have swore it was in English i guess my memory ain't what it was.




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Re: Bootlegs/clones that are still more "playable" than parent? new [Re: TServo2049]
#366311 - 05/25/17 04:13 AM


Remember years ago, played lots of bootlegs

Carrier airwing with a different sound hardware (not emulated)
Pengo running in, probably in the glob hardware (in pacman hardware), similar to the "super glob" sounds (german bootleg), not similar to the pacman hardware
Combat school bootleg wih different manufacturer, different sound hardware
Street fighter 2' CE, with similar speed to SF2 turbo, bootleg, other with "cut" music samples and sounds
Street fighter 2 with a different hardware to used in fcrash, probably a oldest pre final crash hardware (lot missing sprites, very low samples and music and broken endings)
Superman, with street smart sound hardware
Thunder dragon, bootleg with cheap (and terrible) sound hardware, broken final stage (lock enemies and invencible)
Super space fortress macross, bootleg with raiden sound hardware
Hacha mecha fighter, with raiden sound hardware
Acrobat mission, with raiden sound hardware


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