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ShouTime
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The Return of the Japump
#366886 - 06/18/17 10:20 AM


Allow me to tell you a Tale of The Guru, Samurais & some Monkey Magic. The reason for this very long story is simply to forward the preservation agenda in Japan where collectors and preservationists alike have been isolated from MAME.


Context

We all know that Team Japump was removed from the DU due to what happened with Monkey Magic and that they stopped contributing to the Western community some time ago. They have long been vilified as hoarders and the like. Once upon a time in the late 90s and early 2000s, Japanese collectors and developers alike contributed to MAME but something happened and almost all contributions came to a halt...

Fast forward to 2016

Last summer, I had become aware of the 68705 MCU dumper that brizzo had developed with others and volunteered to test the product as I had a dead MCU on a Get Star (bought from The Guru who claimed it worked but was actually faulty...) & wanted to revive it. After successfully dumping the 68705 from a working Get Star, I had notified brizzo that I own many PCBs that used this as a security device and that we should go about dumping all of them. Around this time, I coincidentally bumped into Yohji in Akihabara and caught up with him regarding the latest preservation news. Hearing that I dumped the 68705 piqued his interest as his group, Game Preservation Society (a registered NPO in Japan), had been trying to engineer tech to do just this but had not found any success. I did not initially understand why he was so keen on it until he told me the tale of Team Japump and the incident that would stop all contributions from them.

Team Japump's contributions to arcade preservation is significant. More than half of their dumps were sourced from a well known collector in Japan who we will call Collector X.


Problem 1

Collector X wanted nothing more than for Japanese arcade games to be accurately preserved for posterity. In 2009, he generously loaned the uber rare Taito's Chack'n Pop PCB (Currently valued at $10,000 USD) to The Guru in order to get the 68705 MCU decapped. Now, this was not done directly as neither Collector X nor Team Japump actually read/write/speak English! Instead Yasu Ogawa from MAMEDEV who is bilingual helped facilitate communications between The Guru and Team Japump. The Guru then would forward the PCB to Dr. Decap. Now, we all know if you pass the same message between multiple people, the final receiver will end up not exactly getting the whole message. Imagine using another language in this communication transfer and you can start to understand where the eventual problem came from - communication.

Team Japump was under the impression that Chack'n Pop would be treated with high priotity and with care. Dr. Decap just added it to his growing list of decaps that needed to be done. Neither could communicate to each other in the same language. Collector X was obviously anxious about the status of his valuable board and pushed Team Japump to get the status of it as no communication had come to them after the shipment. Eventually, Dr. Decap did try to decap it with no success and the PCB was returned to The Guru. For years, it languished in his hands while Team Japump had no transparency into the status of it. Fortunately, Yohji met Team Japump and understood their plight. He took it upon himself to recover the PCB after lengthy badgering and using his own funds. When it arrived, it would not boot as the MCU was destroyed.

At this point, 6 years had passed since the initial shipment of the board for decapping. Collector X now does not have a working PCB and no easy way to replace it.


Problem 2

Also in 2009, discrete sound for Taito's Lupin III was not emulated correctly in MAME. Andy Welburn who is an expert in this hardware wanted a sample to correct this. Seeing that Lupin III is also a very rare game in Japan, Team Japump offered to send the PCB from Collector X to help with this. Again, Yasu Ogawa from MAMEDEV helped to facilitate communication and shipping to Andy Welburn in the UK. Again like with Chack'n Pop, no communication was made to them on the status and even Andy himself did not know where to return the board when he was done with it. The board has never been returned and Andy says he does not have it (he did have several before which he sold on his store site). It possibly could have been mixed up with his store inventory or lost in his move to the US). Lupin III is not as rare as Chack'n Pop but very uncommon. It averages in value at around $1200 USD if you can find one.



The People


Dr. Decap (US, English only) < The Guru (AU, English only) < Yasu Ogawa from MAMEDEV (JP, Bilingual) < Team Japump (JP, Japanese only) < Collector X (JP, Japanese only)

Andy Welburn (UK, English only) < Yasu Ogawa from MAMEDEV (JP) < Team Japump (JP) < Collector X (JP)




The Journey

Yohji and myself spent a weekend this past spring on a 10 hour road trip traveling to central Japan to meet the head Team Japump members in order to present a gift to start to repair relations with the Japanese preservation community. We were accompanied by 2 of their Tokyo members, 1 who I have met previously and helped with background information on protos/rare games.

This gift is the result of a global collaboration of like minded individuals. We had successfully dumped a working MCU from Chack'n Pop that Yohji was able to borrow from Team Japump and we had also programmed a replacement MCU. Presenting this is meant to be an apology for what happened in the past and to start relations anew with the preservation community in Japan.

Many of Team Japump had already heard of me by reputation but I had never met them before. Imagine the scene in one of the Star Wars prequels where Anakin goes before the Jedi council. That was me. Scrutinized by their local standards for what I have released, who I know in Japan and what I have sold before on auctions - they knew quite a bit about what I have done since joining the DU.



After much discussion and the successful repair of Chack'n Pop, I was told their side of the story of what happened and also inquired into what happened with Monkey Magic. For those that don't know, Moogly Guy and the DU spent a significant amount of money to acquire this undumped Nintendo game only to find that Team Japump submitted the dump and driver after we acquired the game. To most people, this would seem to be outrageous. An obscene amount of money ($4000 USD) was just spent and this submission just seemed to be trolling.

Immediate action was taken and Team Japump was removed the DU. The submission to MAMEDEV was deleted.

Why did Team Japump do this?

The simple truth is coincidence and the lack of English communications skills further exacerbated the situation. Chack'n from Team Japump had just happened to download his emails from the DU and saw the topic with Monkey Magic in it. He did not know what was happening as he couldn't read anything but Yahoo and Monkey Magic but saw the link to the auction. Not wanting people to waste money, he quickly released what he already prepared in the past. Unfortunately, since he could not defend himself, we are where we are today.

Team Japump now understands why the DU and MAMEDEV took those actions.



The Resolution

Team Japump will see to the return of the funds used for Monkey Magic to be put into rare dumps that will be released to MAME in the immediate future. Dumps that they have held in the past will be released in the future as well.

The Chack'n Pop incident (Problem 1) has now been resolved. I will work with Andy Welburn (a great guy who has contributed much) and Team Japump to resolve the Lupin III incident (Problem 2) even if it comes out of my own pocket.

Together, I hope that our preservation community becomes stronger through better communication handled by myself/Yohji and that Japanese developers come back & lead dev on things like mahjong and hanafuda.




PS: Dr. Decap said that The Guru was crazy and could not reasonably manage the workload which is why he quit. There were no issues recovering the chips from him.



Dumped: 3on3 DUNK MADNESS US, A.B. Cop JP, AIR INFERNO JP, AquaJack US, BATTLE SHARK Joystick, CRACKIN' DJ PART 2 JP, DOUBLE AXLE DX US, ENFORCE W, GP RIDER JP, GUN SURVIVOR 2 JP/W, GUNBUSTER US, GUNHARD, HANG PILOT US, Ikari III JP, JET WAVE JP, Last Survivor, MARS TV JP, MAZAN US, NINJA ASSAULT JP/W, OutRunners JP, Panic ROAD DE, PUNCH-OUT!! JP, Radirgy Ver. A, SPACE GUN JP/US, STARBLADE W, SUPER RANGER DE, SUZUKA 8 Hours 2 JP, TERRA FORCE JP, THUNDER ZONE JP, Western Express JP



Vas Crabb
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: ShouTime]
#366887 - 06/18/17 10:40 AM


Great post, Shou.



9ofzeven
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: ShouTime]
#366888 - 06/18/17 11:21 AM


Wow, it makes me a little sad that so much energy and time on all sides was lost in translation.

But still this serves as a good reminder that it is always helpful to think about people and their needs (respect, understanding, empathy...) first.

I can imagine that those involved feel a great relieve and hope for a more harmonious future -- I do, just having read this post.

Thank you ShouTime for making this effort and sharing it with us! Please keep us informed of your progress and Good Luck!



Mucci
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: ShouTime]
#366889 - 06/18/17 11:29 AM


thanks for that information and your work. Communication is very important between us.

Edited by Mucci (06/18/17 11:30 AM)



CTOJAH
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: ShouTime]
#366892 - 06/18/17 04:43 PM


Personally, I don't accept the "lost in translation" thing (At least we all have Google Translate if not better), every school boy learn English in this WORLD even myself - You know my country (EX YU) was communist/socialist oriented and we still learned (Capitalist) language.
All in all, I appreciate that both sides are now friends again so they can work together for the same goal - preservation & emulation.
Also if I may say this : The whole thing was NOT language barriers, but that dam $$$/¥¥¥ and for the future it would be clever to take care much more about money/donations and everything should be fine. Of course respecting each other is a must.

P.S. I suppose it would be much easier for our fellas Samurais if we use EngRish instead of English ?!

P.P.S. Just wanna say : THANK YOU ShouTime for all Your work for MAME community.



MooglyGuy
Renegade MAME Dev
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: CTOJAH]
#366894 - 06/18/17 05:31 PM


You're staggeringly ignorant and ungrateful, and need to shut the fuck up.



Master O
Yes, Even Parodius Music
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: ShouTime]
#366895 - 06/18/17 05:53 PM


> The Resolution
>
> Team Japump will see to the return of the funds used for Monkey Magic to be put into
> rare dumps that will be released to MAME in the immediate future. Dumps that they
> have held in the past will be released in the future as well.
>

Does this mean Vertexer is going to be released to Mame? I remember a lot of people on mameworld really wanting to see that one emulated.

That being said, I definitely share everyone else's happiness here on seeing this critical preservation community relationship being repaired.



"Note to Noobs:

We are glad to help you but simply posting that something does not work is not going to lead to you getting help. The more information you can supply defining your problem, the less likely it will be that you will get smart-alec replies.

C.D.~"



BrianT
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: ShouTime]
#366896 - 06/18/17 06:00 PM


This is a significant and welcomed event. It goes to show that like minded people with a single goal in mind can accomplish great things.

It took people with no egos or preconceptions who’s only interest was to further arcade preservation to make this happen. ShouTime had knowledge of the events but was fully able to get both sides of the story. Then he was able to filter out the ill will and explain to both sides the point of view of the other party.

What was written off as emu drama by most turned out to truly be a misunderstanding. Now both parties having a greater understanding of the actual events and reasons behind them can see there was no malice intended. We as a community were the victims of the domino effect. Now that things have been set straight we can finally get back the one thing that matters to all us: Emulating arcade games for the sake of posterity.

I would personally like to thank all those involved, ShouTime, Yohji, brizzo and the many other people behinds the scenes that helped.

BrianT



CTOJAH
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: MooglyGuy]
#366897 - 06/18/17 06:14 PM


> You're staggeringly ignorant and ungrateful, and need to shut the fuck up.

My dear friend, where do You see my ignorance & ungratefulness in my post ?!
Are You on drugs or something ?



Jason
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: CTOJAH]
#366898 - 06/18/17 06:19 PM


As Moogly stated ... STFU! Really, you know NOTHING about the situation other than what was posted by ShouTime. Here's a news flash for you ... Google isn't the best translator. It's good but not the best. Everyone else that posted was appreciative and grateful for what ShouTime has done, except for you. You couldn't just be grateful for the accomplishment. It's comments like yours that annoy the MAMEDEVs to a point where they stop their work. Was that your intent - to annoy or piss off ShouTime to a point where he stops what he's doing?

Your post (though many of your posts apply to this) reminds me of an old saying ... . Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt.



Master O
Yes, Even Parodius Music
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: Jason]
#366900 - 06/18/17 06:21 PM


> As Moogly stated ... STFU! Really, you know NOTHING about the situation other than
> what was posted by ShouTime. Here's a news flash for you ... Google isn't the best
> translator. It's good but not the best. Everyone else that posted was appreciative
> and grateful for what ShouTime has done, except for you. You couldn't just be
> grateful for the accomplishment. It's comments like yours that annoy the MAMEDEVs to
> a point where they stop their work. Was that your intent - to annoy or piss off
> ShouTime to a point where he stops what he's doing?
>
> Your post (though many of your posts apply to this) reminds me of an old saying ... .
> Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt.

In all fairness, I highly doubt Shoutime would care what one troll thinks. Shoutime most likely has much thicker skin that that.

Don't. Feed. The. Trolls.



"Note to Noobs:

We are glad to help you but simply posting that something does not work is not going to lead to you getting help. The more information you can supply defining your problem, the less likely it will be that you will get smart-alec replies.

C.D.~"



CTOJAH
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: Jason]
#366901 - 06/18/17 06:27 PM


> Was that your intent - to annoy or piss off
> ShouTime to a point where he stops what he's doing?

On a contrary - I really DO appreciate what ShouTime did and doing !



CTOJAH
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: Master O]
#366902 - 06/18/17 06:49 PM


> In all fairness, I highly doubt Shoutime would care what one troll thinks. Shoutime
> most likely has much thicker skin that that.
>
> Don't. Feed. The. Trolls.

What we have here ?
ALL of Your posts here are nothing but pure trolling, even Your post here is demanding/trolling for a new game, just a little bit masked by saying : "...a lot of people really wanting to see..."
You are really pity.
And one more thing, licking asses to MAME devs doesn't make You any smarter.



brizzo
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: CTOJAH]
#366903 - 06/18/17 08:03 PM


I finally signed up here to share more about my research and progress on 68705 -- but given one of the first few replies accuses Shou of being a liar, then the childish bickering....

Will come back when this mess is cleaned up



MooglyGuy
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: brizzo]
#366905 - 06/18/17 08:39 PM


> Will come back when this mess is cleaned up

Then you likely won't be coming back for quite a while. For some reason Smitt refuses to ban that CTOJAH chuckle-head. There's a reason why the vast majority of us on the team try to be as emphatic as possible when pointing out to people that the MAMEWorld forums are in no way dev-approved or viewed particularly highly. As for "childish bickering", screw me for coming to ShouTime's defense, right?



SmitdoggAdministrator
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: MooglyGuy]
#366906 - 06/18/17 08:53 PM


If you'd have me ban someone for being skeptical of someone's else's inability to use google translate then you'd make a terrible moderator and nobody would stick around on your forum for long because you're facist. I'm proud to not be an official mamedev forum that sides with "emulator progress!" no matter what without ever using its own brain.



B2K24
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: ShouTime]
#366907 - 06/18/17 08:55 PM


Really nice post to read while sipping my morning coffee

Thanks to ShouTime and Everyone that contributes to preservation helping making MAME that much better

THANK YOU GUYS!!!!






Phil Bennett
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Bravo Shou, Brizzo -nt- new [Re: ShouTime]
#366908 - 06/18/17 09:43 PM





MooglyGuy
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: Smitdogg]
#366910 - 06/18/17 11:03 PM


> If you'd have me ban someone for being skeptical of someone's else's inability to use
> google translate then you'd make a terrible moderator and nobody would stick around
> on your forum for long because you're facist.

This from someone who probably doesn't even speak a second fucking language, let alone a third. Tell us more about your brilliant, expert-like knowledge of Japanese versus the word of someone like ShouTime who's properly bilingual and would actually fucking know just how well (or unwell) Google Translate works for going from English to Japanese.

EDIT: A stoner and a borderline illiterate from Macedonia who writes posts more akin to the word salad of an addled schizophrenic than actual English are comporting to lecture me and ShouTime, the latter of whom has lived in Japan for years, has interacted with these people before, and holds a significant position in the Japanese game industry, about whether or not Google Translate works well. I've literally seen fucking everything. Close it down, boys, life cannot possibly get any more fucking bizarre.



SmitdoggAdministrator
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: MooglyGuy]
#366911 - 06/18/17 11:17 PM


> > If you'd have me ban someone for being skeptical of someone's else's inability to
> use
> > google translate then you'd make a terrible moderator and nobody would stick around
> > on your forum for long because you're facist.
>
> This from someone who probably doesn't even speak a second fucking language, let
> alone a third. Tell us more about your brilliant, expert-like knowledge of Japanese
> versus the word of someone like ShouTime who's properly bilingual and would actually
> fucking know just how well (or unwell) Google Translate works for going from English
> to Japanese.
>


You're welcome to disagree with CTOJAH all you want but the fact is I don't moderate in a way to where people get banned just because you disagree with their opinion on something. Deal with it or don't.


> EDIT: A stoner and a borderline illiterate from Macedonia who writes posts more akin
> to the word salad of an addled schizophrenic than actual English are comporting to
> lecture me and ShouTime, the latter of whom has lived in Japan for years, has
> interacted with these people before, and holds a significant position in the Japanese
> game industry, about whether or not Google Translate works well. I've literally seen
> fucking everything. Close it down, boys, life cannot possibly get any more fucking
> bizarre.


CTOJAH I admit is a mildly rude poster and seems to have grown up without a parent teaching him things along the lines of "if you can't say something nice don't say anything at all" and so on but just because I have small issues with someone doesn't mean they get banned. And I'm not the only mod here either, you just like blaming me.



R. Belmont
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: CTOJAH]
#366912 - 06/18/17 11:33 PM


> Personally, I don't accept the "lost in translation" thing (At least we all have
> Google Translate if not better)

Google Translate does fairly well between English and its component European languages (as well as between/among those European languages). It does a *terrible* job handling Chinese, Japanese, and Korean. Those languages have concepts which simply don't exist in European languages (in Chinese your tone of voice for each syllable changes the meaning).

Most Japanese schoolchildren learn a little bit of English in school, but it's about as useful as the French or Spanish that US schoolchildren learn - maybe enough to order beer and find the restroom at a bar but anything more demanding is right out. Plus, computers and emulation have a specialized vocabulary which isn't covered in normal school language courses.

MAMEdev has sourced a fair amount of rare documentation and other materials in Japanese over the years, and Google Translate has never rendered a usable English translation. Only human translation has ever worked, and even then it often takes several passes on the text since the translator doesn't always know the technical vocabulary.



R. Belmont
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: ShouTime]
#366913 - 06/18/17 11:37 PM


The 68705 reader's pretty cool if he open-sources it, otherwise it's more lost arcane knowledge. The rest I think people are a little too willing to swallow without proof. "Trust, but verify" and all that.



R. Belmont
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: BrianT]
#366914 - 06/18/17 11:40 PM


> What was written off as emu drama by most turned out to truly be a misunderstanding.

Except that it wasn't. Maybe ShouTime is writing English non-precisely, but this account in fact appears to verify that Japump were sitting on Monkey Magic for some indeterminate period before they released the hoarded driver, and he just perked up and posted it after DU announced Moogly's life savings were gone.



MooglyGuy
Renegade MAME Dev
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: R. Belmont]
#366915 - 06/18/17 11:51 PM


> > What was written off as emu drama by most turned out to truly be a
> misunderstanding.
>
> Except that it wasn't. Maybe ShouTime is writing English non-precisely, but this
> account in fact appears to verify that Japump were sitting on Monkey Magic for some
> indeterminate period before they released the hoarded driver, and he just perked up
> and posted it after DU announced Moogly's life savings were gone.

The explanation is perfectly valid. The person in question rarely checked his e-mail, and when he did, all he saw was "Monkey Magic", at which point he tried to release it ASAP, but the auction was already over.

As the person who was purportedly "screwed", it's my issue and my issue alone to have with them, and from what I have seen, they have every intention of putting things right. You simply refuse to listen to me every time I tell you that things happen at a glacial pace relative to the western world, and I find that frankly disconcerting. Because from where I'm sitting, while Brizzo seems to consider it "childish" that I spoke up to defend ShouTime (), the attitude shared by you and a handful of other MAME developers seems way more potentially harmful in the long run to any sort of attempts at cooperation and working together.

At the end of the day, right or wrong, our faith in Guru to manage the Dr. Decapitator project competently ended up risking the permanent destruction of a board well more valuable than Monkey Magic. This whole notion that our own hands are clean is pretty arrogant, and not at all grounded in reality. It seems like both parties, except for some hangers-on on our side, are perfectly content to start working together again, and I know I didn't hallucinate a screenshot of a directory of available dumps, so maybe you should heed our own classic advice of "Just sit back and wait for cool things to happen."

EDIT: Besides all that, last I checked, I also haven't hallucinated the conversations I've had with ShouTime in order to iron out a clear-cut set of instructions on how to do Pull Requests, which he will subsequently be translating into Japanese. While there is still legwork and coordination to be done on that end, Team Japump have show interest in learning how modern MAME development goes, they just need someone who can tell them in their own language. My personal hope is that they'll be able to use the Pull Request system, and ShouTime will be able to act as a go-between for translating between the two teams. I didn't even want to make mention of this since nothing is set in stone yet, but just because you're not seeing open, public discussions doesn't mean discussions aren't going on, and doesn't mean things aren't moving forward.

Seriously, this is a huge bit of news, and Brizzo appears to be pretty open about what the dumping hardware entails and does to anyone who's willing to listen. Is it to much to ask for us to just be happy about some good news for a frickin' change?



gamez fan
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: ShouTime]
#366916 - 06/18/17 11:57 PM


Nice to read this!! im sure in the longrun it can only benefit arcade preservation to have as many people on board as possible.




Arcade Addict



R. Belmont
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: MooglyGuy]
#366919 - 06/19/17 01:51 AM


> I didn't even want to make mention of this since nothing is
> set in stone yet, but just because you're not seeing open, public discussions doesn't
> mean discussions aren't going on, and doesn't mean things aren't moving forward.

I want this to work out more than I've wanted anything in a while, but secret discussions have rarely gone well in the context of emu-politics. I'll be happy when I see actual results and a fully populated GitHub repo for the dumper.



brizzo
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: MooglyGuy]
#366920 - 06/19/17 02:43 AM


My comments were 100% directed at CTOJAH. You're not on IRC for me to send you <3 <3 <3

> The 68705 reader's pretty cool if he open-sources it, otherwise it's more lost arcane
> knowledge. The rest I think people are a little too willing to swallow without proof.
> "Trust, but verify" and all that.

Another comment that makes me realize its probably a mistake to start posting on here. The mental tax to have to defend myself and how my projects are managed is asinine. The information how to dump these chips has long been public domain, but how to do it with a slick little kit has not been published yet. This post is about restoring the relationship with Japump, but somehow the priority is to lobby accusations.

> I want this to work out more than I've wanted anything in a while, but secret
> discussions have rarely gone well in the context of emu-politics. I'll be happy when
> I see actual results and a fully populated GitHub repo for the dumper.

If I had to do this type of work with public scrutiny like this, I would have quit a long time ago.



R. Belmont
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: brizzo]
#366922 - 06/19/17 02:48 AM


> If I had to do this type of work with public scrutiny like this, I would have quit a
> long time ago.

Welcome to the last 20 years of working on MAME :-)

> This post is about restoring the relationship with Japump, but somehow the
> priority is to lobby accusations.

You're new so you don't understand the history, but there have been many people making many promises for the last 20 years (including representatives of game companies and governmental organizations) and the delivery rate has been terrible. Therefore, I'm naturally going to be suspicious of any post proclaiming a miracle breakthrough that isn't signed "O. Galibert" or "Ville Linde" and doesn't accompany actual results.

Edited by R. Belmont (06/19/17 02:57 AM)



*=/STARRIDER\=*
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: R. Belmont]
#366926 - 06/19/17 03:50 AM


This is amazing news and would be a remarkable accomplishment if all holds true!

As someone who has lost $$$ in the Monkey Ball deal and the Decapping project, I am willing to let that all go if things can be worked out.

These discussions with the actual players should NOT be playing out on these boards!!!



There is no law in the arena




Renegade
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: R. Belmont]
#366927 - 06/19/17 03:57 AM


> > If I had to do this type of work with public scrutiny like this, I would have quit
> a
> > long time ago.
>
> Welcome to the last 20 years of working on MAME :-)
>
> > This post is about restoring the relationship with Japump, but somehow the
> > priority is to lobby accusations.
>
> You're new so you don't understand the history, but there have been many people
> making many promises for the last 20 years (including representatives of game
> companies and governmental organizations) and the delivery rate has been terrible.
> Therefore, I'm naturally going to be suspicious of any post proclaiming a miracle
> breakthrough that isn't signed "O. Galibert" or "Ville Linde" and doesn't accompany
> actual results.



Sadly Mr. Belmont is right, many many promises and so little progress on fulfilling those promises.

I'm sure that Mr. Belmont and other mamedev would welcome you with open arms if you provided proof of your claims as they have others.

As far as the op, I'm glad too to hear this is all being worked out. It's amazing at times what can be accomplished when people work together. Shame it doesn't happen more often in the real world....



Only here to annoy...



Mr. DoAdministrator
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: CTOJAH]
#366928 - 06/19/17 03:58 AM


> > You're staggeringly ignorant and ungrateful, and need to shut the fuck up.
>
> My dear friend, where do You see my ignorance & ungratefulness in my post ?!
> Are You on drugs or something ?


You're first part of ignorance:

Quote:


Personally, I don't accept the "lost in translation" thing (At least we all have Google Translate if not better), every school boy learn English in this WORLD even myself - You know my country (EX YU) was communist/socialist oriented and we still learned (Capitalist) language.




You assume that because "that's how it was in my country, that's how it is in every country." If you really need me to explain how that thought process is ignorance, please let me know, and I'll expand.

Second part:

Quote:


P.S. I suppose it would be much easier for our fellas Samurais if we use EngRish instead of English ?!




Not only ignorant and ungrateful, but racist.

Here's the thing... you've been given a pass for a very, VERY long time, due to the fact that we've assumed English is not your first language, so we try to give you the benefit of the doubt, that you don't always realize that the sentences you are writing are as spiteful or mean-spirited as you actually meant.

But... it's been years now... you've had chances to realize all this, and to better improve your speaking skills. I can see that your English has improved, but the perception of your actual comments has changed zero, implying to me that, after all of the continued warnings you have received, you really do understand the things you are saying, but still choose to continue as normal.

Whether or not this is the "unofficial" board of MAME, it's the most popular, and the one many people pay attention to. As much as we try to be fair for everyone, and not be too strict, it is at the same time harmful to this board and the community as a whole to continue to let people post some of the type of crap they do around here, without moderating it.

In other words... before you click that "continue" button, try and understand what you are actually posting might mean to someone else.

I could say more here... but this is already getting long in the tooth... hope that all makes sense.




RELAX and just have fun. Remember, it's all about the games.




SmitdoggAdministrator
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: Renegade]
#366929 - 06/19/17 06:06 AM


Proof like the 68705 dump of Bouncing Balls he already submitted months ago? Or the Atomiswave dumper. Or the fucking picture of the 68705 dumper, that's photoshopped bs... This is somehow inefficient to you and Belmsey the perfectly polite trolling doorman? He'll open the door for you and then troll you in perfect English and tell you to have a nice day before you realize he's trolling. He's like a fucking cartoon.



brizzo
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: Smitdogg]
#366931 - 06/19/17 07:28 AM


Don't forget the Aleck64 jazz too



R. Belmont
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: Smitdogg]
#366932 - 06/19/17 07:34 AM


Bouncing Balls was explained away at the time as being Caps0ff's; C0 *was* doing some 68705s around that time. The only "AW dumpers" I know of are Guru and the DEMUL guys. And the existence of a 68705 dumper isn't what's being disputed; the bus factor of it is.

Look at the bright side: they did such a good job hiding that this was going on that they're going to have trouble proving any of it until they meet whatever conditions Japump has set and can release these dumps.



SmitdoggAdministrator
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: R. Belmont]
#366933 - 06/19/17 07:46 AM


I've dumped Atomiswave carts, I think Bill D has as well, you just remove the flash chips and dump them like any surface mount roms. They're just stock name brand chips on all the carts I've opened up. The dumper system brizzo made for them is so you don't have to go through that process (like what was done with Naomi carts and rtw's setup). More importantly it was made because there are proto Atomiswave carts with owners who are scared of rom removal.

There's stuff that goes on behind the scenes, I've known about this 68705 stuff forever and I've mentioned the 68705 dumper before on the DU list and here I'm sure. As long as Japan is in the picture there's going to be stuff that goes on behind the scenes. I just got an email an hour ago that would blow your mind but because of Japan the benefits are going to trickle.



brizzo
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: R. Belmont]
#366934 - 06/19/17 08:33 AM


> Bouncing Balls was explained away at the time as being Caps0ff's; C0 *was* doing some
> 68705s around that time. The only "AW dumpers" I know of are Guru and the DEMUL guys.
> And the existence of a 68705 dumper isn't what's being disputed; the bus factor of it
> is.

What was the explanation for Tokio / Scramble Formation? https://github.com/mamedev/mame/commit/aaff5c704783fae18edac646f2d242a66439013a

CAPS0ff has one of my 68705 kits. The *only* 68705 work that has been done was under my direction. You might want to fact check that claim, given my position.

MetalliC/DEMUL and I work very closely on projects. We built the AW software dumper together. As far as we know this is the first time homebrew has been ran on Atomiswave.

Lobbying accusations is certainly strange way to address the 'bus factor'. Trust me, we got that covered



Olivier Galibert
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: R. Belmont]
#366935 - 06/19/17 08:40 AM


> MAMEdev has sourced a fair amount of rare documentation and other materials in
> Japanese over the years, and Google Translate has never rendered a usable English
> translation. Only human translation has ever worked, and even then it often takes
> several passes on the text since the translator doesn't always know the technical
> vocabulary.

Interestingly, GT doesn't do too bad on the japanese of the TGP sorry-excuse-of-a-manual we have. If you know hardware, you can pretty nicely map what it says to reality.

OG.



dgp
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: R. Belmont]
#366936 - 06/19/17 08:56 AM


> It does a *terrible*
> job handling Chinese, Japanese, and Korean.

Does just fine for Japanese in a lot of cases. The result can be a bit robotic if you expect native sounding English but it usually makes enough sense for you to get what is going on. The live OCR feature of the google translate app is pretty good even on written text now. I use it to decode kanji dense documents like those that come from the tax office that even a native has trouble with comprehending from time to time.

> (in Chinese your tone of voice for each
> syllable changes the meaning).

Why would those issues matter for written material?

> Most Japanese schoolchildren learn a little bit of English in school,

Japanese children are now learning English from kindergarten (source: my kids are). Most high schoolers learn a lot of complex vocabulary.
Many of them are absolutely awful at speaking and listening because they have no real world experience of doing it. Reading is a lot better. (source: my wife can't speak English for shit but is fairly capable at reading. She only has high school level education.)

> Plus, computers and emulation have a specialized vocabulary which isn't covered in
> normal school language courses.

For Japanese a lot of that vocab is directly imported from English. Japanese also has this phenomenon where there is quite often a bastardised English word that can be used in place of actual Japanese. i.e. you can get away with saying ribuuto instead of saikidou.

> several passes on the text since the translator doesn't always know the technical
> vocabulary.

My guess would be that the translators are on the level of anime fansubbers and not actual translators.



MooglyGuy
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: dgp]
#366937 - 06/19/17 10:21 AM


I don't dispute any of what you say, but I do have exactly six words for you that, if you're aware of MAME history, pretty much blow any possible argument in Google Translate's favor out of the water: "Don Bear Near" and "Rhinoceros Bar Command".



Vas Crabb
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: dgp]
#366940 - 06/19/17 11:42 AM


Electronics has all sorts of domain-specific jargon in Japanese. Stuff like 立ち下がり, and words where the translation is different in context. Google translate doesn't work well at all, and a human needs to know the domain-specific jargon in both languages to deal with it.



dgp
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: MooglyGuy]
#366941 - 06/19/17 12:04 PM


> I don't dispute any of what you say, but I do have exactly six words for you that, if
> you're aware of MAME history,

Google translate isn't static. It's getting progressively better. It might have been crap a few years ago but it's usable for a lot of things now.



dgp
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#366942 - 06/19/17 12:11 PM


> Electronics has all sorts of domain-specific jargon in Japanese.

Most of which are long sequences of kanji that when translated literally from the components usually makes some sort of sense even if it's not the direct equivalent word or phase in English.

>Google translate doesn't work well at all,

Yet translated this definition of raise/fall times pretty well:
https://translate.google.com/translate?h...nary%2F039.html

> know the domain-specific jargon in both
> languages to deal with it.

Nope. If you can parse Japanese well enough to know where word boundaries are you can look up the words in a technical directory. You don't need to know the words or be an EE to translate based on them.



MooglyGuy
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: dgp]
#366943 - 06/19/17 12:46 PM


Got to ask, what exactly was your end goal in registering here? Was the temptation to come riding in on your high horse to insinuate that MAME devs are simply a pack of dumbasses who have somehow lucked into emulating tens of thousands of games, not been trying to get good Japanese<->English translations for literally the past 20 years, and would literally eat their own shit if not for your shining paragon of guidance?

Because it seems to me your whole purpose was exactly that, to just pop your nose in and dump on what should otherwise be a positive, happy moment. Why don't you ride your high horse back the hell out of here? You're not being helpful in any, way, shape or form, and I'm can't even imagine the derailed train of thought that would lead to you thinking otherwise.



dgp
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: MooglyGuy]
#366944 - 06/19/17 01:31 PM


> Got to ask, what exactly was your end goal in registering here?

Been a lurker for a while and I thought I would correct what R.Belmont had written because he was obviously wrong and you guys were having an e-peen contest.

And man you're a salty old cunt. I thought you had left mamedev because it was below you multiple times? I come here once in a while for news that isn't that preggo snaps thing that seems to be 10 out of every 9 posts and it always gives me a laugh to see yet another post from you where you're coming unhinged foaming at the mouth about something like an old demented guy off his pills.

Edited by dgp (06/19/17 01:32 PM)



R. Belmont
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: brizzo]
#366951 - 06/19/17 04:00 PM


> What was the explanation for Tokio / Scramble Formation?
> https://github.com/mamedev/mame/commit/aaff5c704783fae18edac646f2d242a66439013a

IIRC the cover story there was that a board had turned up where the protection bit wasn't set on the MCU. It's happened before, it'll likely happen again. By that point Lord Nightmare had talked everyones ears off about the potential for 68705 science experiments but we didn't know if he was actually going to do them.

> MetalliC/DEMUL and I work very closely on projects. We built the AW software dumper
> together. As far as we know this is the first time homebrew has been ran on
> Atomiswave.

I figured it probably wouldn't be hard to adapt Deunan's Naomi/Naomi2 dumper to AW. And I think "NG Dev-Team" has claimed to have had something running on AW before, but if it was true they never actually shipped anything.

> Lobbying accusations is certainly strange way to address the 'bus factor'. Trust me,
> we got that covered

No accusations have been made. I'm just waiting for you to prove you have this stuff dumped. Announcements of having something ready to hand over and then that item never surfacing are, as I've said, an unfortunate staple of the hobby.



R. Belmont
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: dgp]
#366952 - 06/19/17 04:09 PM


> Been a lurker for a while and I thought I would correct what R.Belmont had written
> because he was obviously wrong and you guys were having an e-peen contest.

Obviously wrong? I have repeatedly had the actual experience of attempting to translate Japanese documents mechanically and having it output ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US-level gibberish, at which point someone like Vas has to step in.

I've even had the experience of having things I wrote translated into Japanese by a native speaker, running that through Google, and getting unrecognizable hash out. There's a reason Translate has a bad reputation for CJK languages, and it's not something I'm making up.

Also, the fuck is a "preggo snaps thing"?



B2K24
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: R. Belmont]
#366954 - 06/19/17 04:22 PM


> Also, the fuck is a "preggo snaps thing"?

He's referring to AntoPISA's Progetto-SNAPS but he wasn't precise in typing it



MooglyGuy
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: R. Belmont]
#366955 - 06/19/17 04:44 PM


> No accusations have been made. I'm just waiting for you to prove you have this stuff
> dumped. Announcements of having something ready to hand over and then that item never
> surfacing are, as I've said, an unfortunate staple of the hobby.

So is the fact that I'm personally vouching to have seen proof of these dumps utterly meaningless to you, or are you intentionally ignoring portions of what various people are saying in order to more effectively use hollow rhetoric against people who just want to help? Because from where I'm sitting, saying "I want proof this stuff is dumped" is an implied accusation, the implication and accusation being that the inverse must surely be the case. It's not the case, and your dogged insistence otherwise is getting pretty old.

Anyone who's been around the team for a while can see - or perhaps it's just me who's seeing this - that you're clearly upset that once again, people are doing and accomplishing things that your best-buddy Guru either can't or won't.

You're not Kojak, dude. You're not blowing some grand scheme wide open, after which everyone will beg for your forgiveness and women will flock around like geese. You're blowing hot air. Knock it off for god's sake. Like I said before, take a dose of your own medicine and sit back and wait for cool things to happen.



brizzo
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: R. Belmont]
#366956 - 06/19/17 05:48 PM


> > What was the explanation for Tokio / Scramble Formation?
> > https://github.com/mamedev/mame/commit/aaff5c704783fae18edac646f2d242a66439013a
>
> IIRC the cover story there was that a board had turned up where the protection bit
> wasn't set on the MCU. It's happened before, it'll likely happen again. By that point
> Lord Nightmare had talked everyones ears off about the potential for 68705 science
> experiments but we didn't know if he was actually going to do them.

I'm very amused by this response. But keep in mind, if you analyze the dump you will see the lock bits are set true. Or that it contains data which cannot be read through standard methods (bootstrap). Who supplied the cover story?

> No accusations have been made. I'm just waiting for you to prove you have this stuff
> dumped. Announcements of having something ready to hand over and then that item never
> surfacing are, as I've said, an unfortunate staple of the hobby.

You're really contradicting yourself here. You're stating this entire post is fake until somehow proven otherwise. The bouncing balls and scramble formation dumps are fake?



soviet
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: R. Belmont]
#366957 - 06/19/17 05:53 PM



> No accusations have been made. I'm just waiting for you to prove you have this stuff
> dumped. Announcements of having something ready to hand over and then that item never
> surfacing are, as I've said, an unfortunate staple of the hobby.

Competitive envy and trash talking are another "unfortunate staple of the hobby". The news that someone dedicated and mature like ShouTime hopes to turn Japanese collectors into prolific and well-coordinated rom contributors, and also hopes to make brizzo useful dumping somewhat difficult games, is unqualified good news, even in the case the hopes become reality slowly. I'm amazed to see unearthed old feuds and pissing matches about who has the longer Atomiswave skill or who is more skilled at this and that.



R. Belmont
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: soviet]
#366958 - 06/19/17 06:33 PM


> The news that someone dedicated and mature like ShouTime hopes to turn Japanese
> collectors into prolific and well-coordinated rom contributors, and also hopes to
> make brizzo useful dumping somewhat difficult games, is unqualified good news, even
> in the case the hopes become reality slowly.

ShouTime is a true gem, and I do want all this to work out. That's my final statement on the subject; feel free to argue amongst yourselves.



R. Belmont
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: brizzo]
#366960 - 06/19/17 06:36 PM


> You're really contradicting yourself here. You're stating this entire post is fake
> until somehow proven otherwise. The bouncing balls and scramble formation dumps are
> fake?

If you can't release any of the new dumps, post a YouTube of your gadget reading Scramble Formation to a new file and then do an md5sum on the read. I would accept that as 100% proof.



CTOJAH
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: Mr. Do]
#366962 - 06/19/17 07:04 PM


> > > You're staggeringly ignorant and ungrateful, and need to shut the fuck up.
> >
> > My dear friend, where do You see my ignorance & ungratefulness in my post ?!
> > Are You on drugs or something ?
>
>
> You're first part of ignorance:
> Personally, I don't accept the "lost in translation" thing (At least we all have
> Google Translate if not better), every school boy learn English in this WORLD even
> myself - You know my country (EX YU) was communist/socialist oriented and we still
> learned (Capitalist) language.
>
> You assume that because "that's how it was in my country, that's how it is in every
> country." If you really need me to explain how that thought process is ignorance,
> please let me know, and I'll expand.
>

My point was that I (personally) am not accepting that kind of excuse i. e. not knowing the language. If I was ShouTime I wouldn't accept that. So I am NOT accusing ShouTime for lying at all, He did what he did and he accomplished his goal which is great and I support all kind of friendship and conciliation.
So what's wrong with that ? It's my thought - that's why my sentence begins with word "PERSONALLY"
Am I more clear now ?


> Second part:
> P.S. I suppose it would be much easier for our fellas Samurais if we use EngRish
> instead of English ?!
>
> Not only ignorant and ungrateful, but racist.
>

Racist ? That's a serious accusation !
Would You please read again my Post Scriptum. Let me help You : At the end I put emoticon : (known as Smiley) Don't You think that was joke ?

And to clarify myself again :
I am really happy reading OP story and really wanna see more dumps from our friends from Japan (Asia).

P.S. After all, perhaps I am misunderstood (lost in translation) here ?! Especially from my dear friend MooglyGuy



brizzo
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: R. Belmont]
#366963 - 06/19/17 07:04 PM


> > You're really contradicting yourself here. You're stating this entire post is fake
> > until somehow proven otherwise. The bouncing balls and scramble formation dumps are
> > fake?
>
> If you can't release any of the new dumps, post a YouTube of your gadget reading
> Scramble Formation to a new file and then do an md5sum on the read. I would accept
> that as 100% proof.

I'm almost starting to feel sorry for you. Your previous post, ShouTime is a gem. This post, ShouTime is a liar. What is your stance?

ShouTime is the owner of Scramble Formation board set, who dumped and submitted the rom.

ShouTime is the one stating, he used my device to dump Chack'n Pop, wrote the code to a new device, gifted it to Collector X and it worked. Are you stating this is not true, and ShouTime is lying?



B2K24
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: CTOJAH]
#366964 - 06/19/17 07:12 PM


CTOJAH, Please do us all a favor and stop posting in this thread. You have absolutely nothing to do with the contents of the opening post.

What you mean or didn't mean here in regards to the events outlined is completely irrelevant.

Thanks!



CTOJAH
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: brizzo]
#366965 - 06/19/17 07:14 PM


> I finally signed up here to share more about my research and progress on 68705 -- but
> given one of the first few replies accuses Shou of being a liar, then the childish
> bickering....
>
> Will come back when this mess is cleaned up

Your FIRST post here and You already made an ultimatum !
Kill that insignificant guy CTOJAH (that's me by the way) and I will come back again and contribute to MAME.
First of all Who was stopping You before to come here ?
Me ?
Second, I was not accusing ShouTime, on a contrary I support what he do.
Third, maybe, just maybe You are not so great as You think You are ?!



R. Belmont
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: brizzo]
#366971 - 06/19/17 09:04 PM


> I'm almost starting to feel sorry for you. Your previous post, ShouTime is a gem.
> This post, ShouTime is a liar. What is your stance?

ShouTime and Chack'n Pop aren't at issue here, because that dump is unobtainium and so I don't know the correct hashes. I'm specifically asking about games which you say you've dumped and which I know the correct hashes for since this doesn't work otherwise. That gives us Scramble Formation and Bouncing Balls, so pick your favorite.



Haze
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Posts: 4409
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: R. Belmont]
#366972 - 06/19/17 09:07 PM


> > I'm almost starting to feel sorry for you. Your previous post, ShouTime is a gem.
> > This post, ShouTime is a liar. What is your stance?
>
> ShouTime and Chack'n Pop aren't at issue here, because that dump is unobtainium and
> so I don't know the correct hashes. I'm specifically asking about games which you say
> you've dumped and which I know the correct hashes for since this doesn't work
> otherwise. That gives us Scramble Formation and Bouncing Balls, so pick your
> favorite.

I'm not sure why you're making a big deal about this.

The story given is the truth.



R. Belmont
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: Haze]
#366973 - 06/19/17 09:18 PM


> I'm not sure why you're making a big deal about this.

Because the Decap Project broke my heart and took my $500. So when something even more grand shows up and can't actually release any results I'm damned well gonna go slow about trusting it. If they'd done the reveal simultaneous with a pull request to put Chack'n Pop or whatever into MAME I'd be partying too.

> The story given is the truth.

Do you also have insider knowledge?



Haze
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: R. Belmont]
#366974 - 06/19/17 09:27 PM


> > I'm not sure why you're making a big deal about this.
>
> Because the Decap Project broke my heart and took my $500. So when something even
> more grand shows up and can't actually release any results I'm damned well gonna go
> slow about trusting it. If they'd done the reveal simultaneous with a pull request to
> put Chack'n Pop or whatever into MAME I'd be partying too.
>
> > The story given is the truth.
>
> Do you also have insider knowledge?

Well I was asked to add Scramble Formation back when that was done, and felt it worthwhile to embark on the Taito MCU hookup refactoring which Vas ultimately completed.

I honestly see no reason to doubt the story you're being given here. The only risk to the process seems to be if things like this thread end up pissing everybody off again.



R. Belmont
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: Haze]
#366975 - 06/19/17 09:50 PM


> I honestly see no reason to doubt the story you're being given here. The only risk to
> the process seems to be if things like this thread end up pissing everybody off
> again.

Oh, I'm done talking about it, it's all on them now.



brizzo
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: R. Belmont]
#366976 - 06/19/17 10:01 PM


> > I'm not sure why you're making a big deal about this.
>
> Because the Decap Project broke my heart and took my $500. So when something even
> more grand shows up and can't actually release any results I'm damned well gonna go
> slow about trusting it. If they'd done the reveal simultaneous with a pull request to
> put Chack'n Pop or whatever into MAME I'd be partying too.

We have been very clear that the results are going to be released. I clearly outlined on the DU that the information how to dump these secure mcus is public domain.

R.Belmont, it seems ridiculous to me that you as an elected board member of MAME would act like this towards someone new volunteering to help move games from non working status to working. We have all kinds of credibility behind this project, but you representing MAMEdev is this manner is really not conducive to building good relationships.

> Do you also have insider knowledge?

Yes, he does. Emu politics drama? I've let Haze check out other unreleased dumps too! But of course, that's not exclusive. We have files verified by parties who are willing to work in a co-operative and professional manner.



TafoidAdministrator
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: ShouTime]
#366982 - 06/20/17 01:31 AM


Great news, ShouTime. I appreciate you sharing what you have regarding the situation and look forward to the potential windfall of data to come geared toward helping both real PCB owners maintain their collections and the emulation/preservation of such.



R. Belmont
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: brizzo]
#366984 - 06/20/17 02:10 AM


> R.Belmont, it seems ridiculous to me that you as an elected board member of MAME
> would act like this towards someone new volunteering to help move games from non
> working status to working. We have all kinds of credibility behind this project, but
> you representing MAMEdev is this manner is really not conducive to building good
> relationships.

And if you'd honestly answered my initial concerns instead of assuming that doing basic PR for your project was beneath you we'd have a good relationship now. Fortunately since then the project leader has outed himself to me in email and explained what was actually happening, and the MCUs have started flowing so it's all good. Someone lock the damn thread, there's a much more exciting one to be started.



ShouTime
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: R. Belmont]
#366986 - 06/20/17 02:33 AM





brizzo
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: R. Belmont]
#366987 - 06/20/17 02:41 AM


> > R.Belmont, it seems ridiculous to me that you as an elected board member of MAME
> > would act like this towards someone new volunteering to help move games from non
> > working status to working. We have all kinds of credibility behind this project,
> but
> > you representing MAMEdev is this manner is really not conducive to building good
> > relationships.
>
> And if you'd honestly answered my initial concerns instead of assuming that doing
> basic PR for your project was beneath you we'd have a good relationship now.
> Fortunately since then the project leader has outed himself to me in email and
> explained what was actually happening, and the MCUs have started flowing so it's all
> good. Someone lock the damn thread, there's a much more exciting one to be started.


So you're saying ShouTime and me are operating under the direction of someone else? Can you clarify as this is news to both of us.



R. Belmont
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: ShouTime]
#366988 - 06/20/17 02:53 AM


I love you for that. One of my favorite games of all time!



R. Belmont
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: brizzo]
#366990 - 06/20/17 02:57 AM


> So you're saying ShouTime and me are operating under the direction of someone else?
> Can you clarify as this is news to both of us.

Not direction so much as enablement.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have submit requests to process!



SmitdoggAdministrator
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: R. Belmont]
#366994 - 06/20/17 03:56 AM


Trolling trolling trolling. Just admit you're a fucking troll.



R. Belmont
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: Smitdogg]
#366996 - 06/20/17 04:06 AM


No trolling. I've simply seen The Matrix. (The Japumptrix?)



SmitdoggAdministrator
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: R. Belmont]
#366998 - 06/20/17 04:09 AM


I don't think you understand the definition of trolling. The only Matrix quote accurate to your post trolling is "we have become exceedingly efficient at it".



Mr. DoAdministrator
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: CTOJAH]
#367015 - 06/20/17 10:39 AM



> My point was that I (personally) am not accepting that kind of excuse i. e. not
> knowing the language. If I was ShouTime I wouldn't accept that. So I am NOT accusing
> ShouTime for lying at all, He did what he did and he accomplished his goal which is
> great and I support all kind of friendship and conciliation.
> So what's wrong with that ? It's my thought - that's why my sentence begins with word
> "PERSONALLY"
> Am I more clear now ?

I think I know how you are thinking, from your perspective... but I don't think you understand that that is not how it came out, though.


> Racist ? That's a serious accusation !
> Would You please read again my Post Scriptum. Let me help You : At the end I put
> emoticon : (known as Smiley) Don't You think that was joke ?


Doesn't matter.

If you were making a joke directed at someone you "know and understand very well, and also understands you," then that can be understood as a joke. If you're posting it about someone random you don't know very well, emoticon or not, it is still considered condescending.

Besides, you used the wrong smiley.

This one here: That's a happy face... put that at the end of a sentence, and you are very happy about what you just wrote. That's the one you used.

This one here: That's a "wink"... put that at the end of a sentence, and "now" you can say that you were implying that with sarcasm... you're just kidding (hence the wink).

But still... look at it from the other persons perspective... and think about it in real life...

Say you're walking down the street, and you bump into a random Japanese person. You start talking to him, but he seems like he doesn't understand you, so you say "Hey, Samurai, could you understand me if I speak in Engrish?"

Would you really do that? And would you really think that was hilarious if you did? That's the point everyone is trying to make here.

And YES... the way you write and address people on this and other message boards should be EXACTLY the same as if you were addressing that person in real life.



Mr. DoAdministrator
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Re: The Return of the Japump (w/ Artwork?) new [Re: ShouTime]
#367016 - 06/20/17 10:45 AM


Very, very, very cool to see. Congrats on getting everything/everyone organized and back on the same page.

So... selfish question... any chance any of the games you are helping with ever have artwork to go along with them (e.g. instruction cards, etc.)?

If yes, any chance on getting any of that scanned, so we can add it in at some point to MAME Artwork?



ShouTime
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Re: The Return of the Japump (w/ Artwork?) new [Re: Mr. Do]
#367019 - 06/20/17 10:54 AM


> Very, very, very cool to see. Congrats on getting everything/everyone organized and
> back on the same page.
>
> So... selfish question... any chance any of the games you are helping with ever have
> artwork to go along with them (e.g. instruction cards, etc.)?
>
> If yes, any chance on getting any of that scanned, so we can add it in at some point
> to MAME Artwork?

I have either copied or original artwork for about every PCB in my collection. Check my collectedit for pictures of some.

What you're asking for is another project in itself that I think others are already working on.



Mr. DoAdministrator
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Re: The Return of the Japump (w/ Artwork?) new [Re: ShouTime]
#367020 - 06/20/17 11:37 AM


>
> I have either copied or original artwork for about every PCB in my collection. Check
> my collectedit for pictures of some.
>

???
** Google "collectedit" **
** Google "collectedit shoutime **

Ah... there it is... and... wow... WOW...

Okay... that's amazing!!
** Add Bookmark **

> What you're asking for is another project in itself that I think others are already
> working on.

If there is, can you point me in the right direction? None of that info has made it my way. Or is it something private, and I should "wait for good things to happen?"

I have a bunch of stuff here that I bought on Yahoo Japan Auctions some years ago, thanks to some help from Fujix. Still waiting to make time to scan it all, though. And pales in comparison to what you have available... again, wow!

Thanks for the info!!



MooglyGuy
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: R. Belmont]
#367022 - 06/20/17 12:34 PM


> ShouTime is a true gem, and I do want all this to work out. That's my final statement
> on the subject; feel free to argue amongst yourselves.

The fact that you can't even muster up the courage to apologize for your constant Doubting Thomas act in this thread, even in the face of dumps (albeit some of them bad dumps) being released, is pretty shitty, man. You were wrong. Own it.



R. Belmont
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: MooglyGuy]
#367023 - 06/20/17 01:27 PM


> > ShouTime is a true gem, and I do want all this to work out. That's my final
> statement
> > on the subject; feel free to argue amongst yourselves.
>
> The fact that you can't even muster up the courage to apologize for your constant
> Doubting Thomas act in this thread, even in the face of dumps (albeit some of them
> bad dumps) being released, is pretty shitty, man. You were wrong. Own it.

I was wrong. I own it. I'm beyond thrilled to see dumps showing up and getting corrected. But for the record, I did not say anything negative after the bad dumps were released, and in fact I stayed up late on a work night to help expedite committing this stuff (but that ultimately didn't happen once Haze found out the dumps were bad).



ShouTime
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Re: The Return of the Japump (w/ Artwork?) new [Re: Mr. Do]
#367054 - 06/21/17 05:26 AM


A member of Team Japump has been archiving instructions, manuals, flyers and arcade related documentation for decades now.

I don't think there is any short term plan to share these items yet though.

For the Western side of things, collectors like system11 are scanning what they have into an archive.

I don't actually own a scanner anymore but open for anyone to come here and do it themselves.

> >
> > I have either copied or original artwork for about every PCB in my collection.
> Check
> > my collectedit for pictures of some.
> >
>
> ???
> ** Google "collectedit" **
> ** Google "collectedit shoutime **
>
> Ah... there it is... and... wow... WOW...
>
> Okay... that's amazing!!
> ** Add Bookmark **
>
> > What you're asking for is another project in itself that I think others are already
> > working on.
>
> If there is, can you point me in the right direction? None of that info has made it
> my way. Or is it something private, and I should "wait for good things to happen?"
>
> I have a bunch of stuff here that I bought on Yahoo Japan Auctions some years ago,
> thanks to some help from Fujix. Still waiting to make time to scan it all, though.
> And pales in comparison to what you have available... again, wow!
>
> Thanks for the info!!



Phil Bennett
L'Emuchat
Reged: 04/20/04
Posts: 881
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Re: The Return of the Japump (w/ Artwork?) new [Re: ShouTime]
#367057 - 06/21/17 06:49 AM


> A member of Team Japump has been archiving instructions, manuals, flyers and arcade
> related documentation for decades now.
>
> I don't think there is any short term plan to share these items yet though.

Do they have a listing of what's been archived? In particular I'm interested in schematics.



Olivier Galibert
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Re: The Return of the Japump (w/ Artwork?) new [Re: Phil Bennett]
#367064 - 06/21/17 09:21 AM


> > A member of Team Japump has been archiving instructions, manuals, flyers and arcade
> > related documentation for decades now.
> >
> > I don't think there is any short term plan to share these items yet though.
>
> Do they have a listing of what's been archived? In particular I'm interested in
> schematics.

So am I. Konami shematics are what makes the current work possible.

OG.



The tECHIDNA
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This is a wonderful example of international diplomacy [more...] new [Re: ShouTime]
#367067 - 06/21/17 11:04 AM


Came out of lurking to give my sincere thanks to everyone involved. This diplomacy really is a shining example of what the preservation community can do towards a positive end.

Thank you ShouTime, brizzo, Yohji and the Game Preservation Society, the synchronicity effect, and others for making this happen.
Welcome back, Team Japump!!



ShouTime
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Re: The Return of the Japump (w/ Artwork?) new [Re: Phil Bennett]
#367074 - 06/21/17 03:06 PM


> > A member of Team Japump has been archiving instructions, manuals, flyers and arcade
> > related documentation for decades now.
> >
> > I don't think there is any short term plan to share these items yet though.
>
> Do they have a listing of what's been archived? In particular I'm interested in
> schematics.

I'll ask them and see.

Schematics like in US game manuals aren't normal in Japanese manuals. At most, you have wiring diagrams but I'll see what he has put together. Generally, they are looking at artwork and print history (official and indies).



MooglyGuy
Renegade MAME Dev
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Lest anyone think we're full of shit new [Re: R. Belmont]
#367090 - 06/22/17 12:03 AM


For anyone who still thinks that Google Translate is even remotely worthwhile for even English<->European languages, consider this:

I'm currently trying to get a translation of the decision letter that just granted me a permanent residence permit in Sweden. I've typed up everything verbatim, yet Google Translate is giving me a translation which is literally the exact opposite of what the source text states. I'm not good enough at Swedish to know all of the vocabulary, but I'm good enough to know that "talar mot" means "to speak against", and yet Google Translate is giving me the exact opposite:

Partial source text: "om förhållandet framstår som seriöst och inte särskilda skäl talar mot att tilstånd ges"
Google Translate: "if the relationship appears to be serious and no special reasons indicate that permission is granted."
Correct translation: "if the relationship appears to be sufficiently serious and there are no special reasons to indicate that permission is to be denied."
Explanation: "...särskilda skäl talar mot att tilstånd ges", literally translates, word-for-word, "reasons specific speaking against to permission given". The word "mot" means "counter to", or "against". This is something that Google Translate completely misses.

Then, in a second paragraph using largely the same phrasing, it makes exactly the same error. I emphasize, the provided translation is literally the inverse of what it should say. Fuck!



MooglyGuy
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Lest anyone think *I'm* full of shit new [Re: MooglyGuy]
#367096 - 06/22/17 02:19 AM


> For anyone who still thinks that Google Translate is even remotely worthwhile for
> even English<->European languages, consider this:
>
> I'm currently trying to get a translation of the decision letter that just granted me
> a permanent residence permit in Sweden. I've typed up everything verbatim, yet Google
> Translate is giving me a translation which is literally the exact opposite of what
> the source text states. I'm not good enough at Swedish to know all of the vocabulary,
> but I'm good enough to know that "talar mot" means "to speak against", and yet Google
> Translate is giving me the exact opposite:
>
> Partial source text: "om förhållandet framstår som seriöst och inte särskilda skäl
> talar mot att tilstånd ges"
> Google Translate: "if the relationship appears to be serious and no special reasons
> indicate that permission is granted."
> Correct translation: "if the relationship appears to be sufficiently serious and
> there are no special reasons to indicate that permission is to be denied."
> Explanation: "...särskilda skäl talar mot att tilstånd ges", literally translates,
> word-for-word, "reasons specific speaking against to permission given". The word
> "mot" means "counter to", or "against". This is something that Google Translate
> completely misses.
>
> Then, in a second paragraph using largely the same phrasing, it makes exactly the
> same error. I emphasize, the provided translation is literally the inverse of what it
> should say. Fuck!

Someone else perhaps rightly pointed out that the specific snippets of text that I posted above are actually translated correctly.

To an extent, that makes it even more unacceptable, that the translation is so catastrophically bad in context. Here's a tweet where I post a full side-by-side translation and correction for the entire four paragraphs that I threw at it: https://twitter.com/TheMogMiner/status/877676929738059776

And as I mention in the follow-up tweet, I like how it translates "utlänningslagen" as simultaneously "Aliens team" and "foreign team", and not the appropriate "foreigner-law", and for that matter, it translates something as simple as "lag", which in context is obviously "law", i.e. "Jantelagen", "The Jante-law", as LAYER!

So, yeah. Don't even begin to come in here telling us all about how great Google Translate is. No. You appear to have ridden your high-horse out, DPG. Stay out of the CPT.



remax
MAME Fan
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Posts: 129
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Re: Lest anyone think *I'm* full of shit new [Re: MooglyGuy]
#367109 - 06/22/17 10:57 AM


To add a point to your demonstration :

Don't forget to take into account that Google Translation have got far better over the last years...

So the problems you are referring here would have been worse at the time of the events, leading to even more incomprehensions beetween a Japanese-only speaker and a English-only speaker...

Edited by remax (06/22/17 10:58 AM)



Pks2000
MAME Fan
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Posts: 7
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: ShouTime]
#367110 - 06/22/17 01:23 PM


I remember seeing this documentary about Japan's Game Preservation Society... wonder if the guy has an alias or of the team members are in this circle..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXnkAoiek2E



Vas Crabb
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Re: The Return of the Japump new [Re: Pks2000]
#367113 - 06/22/17 01:43 PM


The Game Preservation Society has been credited in MAME 0.179, 0.183 and 0.186. Joseph/Yohji himself has been credited multiple times.



R.Coltrane
MAME user since 0.11
Reged: 08/07/05
Posts: 385
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Re: The Return of the Japump (w/ Artwork?) new [Re: Mr. Do]
#367124 - 06/22/17 08:23 PM


> >
> > I have either copied or original artwork for about every PCB in my collection.
> Check
> > my collectedit for pictures of some.
> >
>
> ???
> ** Google "collectedit" **
> ** Google "collectedit shoutime **
>
> Ah... there it is... and... wow... WOW...
>
> Okay... that's amazing!!
> ** Add Bookmark **
>
> > What you're asking for is another project in itself that I think others are already
> > working on.
>
> If there is, can you point me in the right direction? None of that info has made it
> my way. Or is it something private, and I should "wait for good things to happen?"
>
> I have a bunch of stuff here that I bought on Yahoo Japan Auctions some years ago,
> thanks to some help from Fujix. Still waiting to make time to scan it all, though.
> And pales in comparison to what you have available... again, wow!
>
> Thanks for the info!!

Impressive collection INDEED! Congratulations and thank you Shoutime and Brizzo for your precious collaboration and contributions!

Edited by R.Coltrane (06/23/17 04:06 PM)


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