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B2K24
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Strider original Japanese version graphics/sound fix
#372035 - 12/19/17 03:17 AM


http://blog.system11.org/?p=2682






Dullaron
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Re: Strider original Japanese version graphics/sound fix new [Re: B2K24]
#372036 - 12/19/17 03:21 AM


> http://blog.system11.org/?p=2682

Wait the person said both US. That link saying Japanese. My guest this works on all of the sets.



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agard
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Re: Strider original Japanese version graphics/sound fix new [Re: B2K24]
#372037 - 12/19/17 03:26 AM


love to see the before & after pics.

Great work & Thanks to those involved.



BIOS-D
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Re: Strider original Japanese version graphics/sound fix new [Re: agard]
#372041 - 12/19/17 04:09 AM


> love to see the before & after pics.
>
> Great work & Thanks to those involved.

https://tcrf.net/Strider_(Arcade)



agard
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Re: Strider original Japanese version graphics/sound fix new [Re: BIOS-D]
#372042 - 12/19/17 04:26 AM


Thanks for pics info & Thanks on extra info in how to change. Will we have to manually change to remove leaf or will it be in a new version rom if you know? I don't completely understand in how to do it so hopefully someone will make it easier to do.



BIOS-D
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Re: Strider original Japanese version graphics/sound fix new [Re: agard]
#372044 - 12/19/17 06:15 AM


> Thanks for pics info & Thanks on extra info in how to change. Will we have to
> manually change to remove leaf or will it be in a new version rom if you know? I
> don't completely understand in how to do it so hopefully someone will make it easier
> to do.

You can do this on the original USA dumped game using the cheat system. But someone else took the original dumps from the Japen version and hacked them so you don't need to use the cheat system. The downside of this is you need to get a MAME build that supports the hacked ROMs because the checksums (CRC32/SHA1) are different.

If you want to try this without a hacked/derivative build, activate cheats and place the following into cheat/strider.xml


Code:

<mamecheat version="1">

<cheat desc="Uncensored">
<script state="on">
<action>maincpu.mw@02E46A=0888</action>
<action>maincpu.mw@02E470=0888</action>
<action>maincpu.mw@02E476=0888</action>
<action>maincpu.mw@02E47C=0888</action>
<action>maincpu.mw@02F2EA=0888</action>
<action>maincpu.mw@02F2F0=0888</action>
<action>maincpu.mw@02F2F6=0888</action>
<action>maincpu.mw@02F2FC=0888</action>
</script>
<script state="off">
<action>maincpu.mw@02E46A=16F0</action>
<action>maincpu.mw@02E470=16F1</action>
<action>maincpu.mw@02E476=16F2</action>
<action>maincpu.mw@02E47C=1E84</action>
<action>maincpu.mw@02F2EA=16F0</action>
<action>maincpu.mw@02F2F0=16F1</action>
<action>maincpu.mw@02F2F6=16F2</action>
<action>maincpu.mw@02F2FC=1E84</action>
</script>
</cheat>

</mamecheat>



That should make it for the censoring on the parent ROM (USA version) only.



Tomu Breidah
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Re: Strider original Japanese version graphics/sound fix new [Re: Dullaron]
#372046 - 12/19/17 08:38 AM


> > http://blog.system11.org/?p=2682
>
> Wait the person said both US. That link saying Japanese. My guest this works on all
> of the sets.



It's been a long time (back when I was using an XP computer), but it seems like I swapped some roms around to use in FBA(?) and had music tracks in stages that didn't have them before or where recycled tracks were used from other stages. ....Which, I'm sure is nothing new or never thought of before.


Anyway... Glad I checked this topic. Will definitely be getting this when I get back home!

Edit: Crap. Gunna have to fire up my old XP to find the striderj rom.



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uVSthem
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Re: Strider original Japanese version graphics/sound fix new [Re: B2K24]
#372055 - 12/20/17 01:57 AM


Will the hacked rom sets for the US and Japanese roms be added to the official MAME?



Vas Crabb
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Re: Strider original Japanese version graphics/sound fix new [Re: uVSthem]
#372056 - 12/20/17 02:57 AM


> Will the hacked rom sets for the US and Japanese roms be added to the official MAME?

No. Just use the cheat if you're using MAME. The patched ROMs are mostly useful if you want to convert a board.



agard
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Re: Strider original Japanese version graphics/sound fix new [Re: Vas Crabb]
#372062 - 12/20/17 09:03 AM


It would be nice if Mame started doing things like adding rom sets as the developers intended the game to be. Plus also say for example a game slows down because there's too much things going on in the game play there could be a rom version of the game where it runs smoothly. I think though in both these cases there could be a cheat file that could do these things & you could actually set the cheat file to automatically do this without having to keep activating the cheat, that would be a nice add on to Mame exactly like the cfg file does with setting how many lives you have & how hard the game is etc. I do think that this would be a great idea. I think it's basically like what you would do when you put the game in service mode on games like Metal Slug & Mortal Kombat to activate the blood & violence so once that is set every time then you start up the gsme there's no need to do it again so the same thing could be applied to cheats & the censoring plus adding configurations to making games run smoother.

We all have ideas that you would like to see added to Mame it's just another 1 to add to my list.



Robbbert
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Re: Strider original Japanese version graphics/sound fix new [Re: uVSthem]
#372065 - 12/20/17 02:32 PM


> Will the hacked rom sets for the US and Japanese roms be added to the official MAME?

The 'stridergh' set has been in HBMAME for years.



MooglyGuy
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Re: Strider original Japanese version graphics/sound fix new [Re: agard]
#372066 - 12/20/17 02:54 PM


> It would be nice if Mame started doing things like adding rom sets as the developers
> intended the game to be.

As a game developer, who knows how many other game developers also work on MAME, I can speak for us collectively when I say: No, it wouldn't. It would be the height of arrogance.

I mean fuck me, I didn't realize that Dionne Warwick was a MAME developer now. Apparently we can intuit the developers' original intentions out of thin fucking air now!



RaMDaY
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Re: Strider original Japanese version graphics/sound fix new [Re: MooglyGuy]
#372067 - 12/20/17 07:03 PM


I understand only having officially produced rom sets in MAME but if rom sets like Outrun Enhanced Edition and Metal Slug 2 turbo are supported in MAME then why not this Strider hack?



MooglyGuy
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Re: Strider original Japanese version graphics/sound fix new [Re: RaMDaY]
#372068 - 12/20/17 07:14 PM


> I understand only having officially produced rom sets in MAME but if rom sets like
> Outrun Enhanced Edition and Metal Slug 2 turbo are supported in MAME then why not
> this Strider hack?

The (flimsy) justification is that they've been encountered on boards people are selling. I frankly feel that they should be in HBMAME.



Haze
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Re: Strider original Japanese version graphics/sound fix new [Re: MooglyGuy]
#372075 - 12/20/17 09:26 PM


> > I understand only having officially produced rom sets in MAME but if rom sets like
> > Outrun Enhanced Edition and Metal Slug 2 turbo are supported in MAME then why not
> > this Strider hack?
>
> The (flimsy) justification is that they've been encountered on boards people are
> selling. I frankly feel that they should be in HBMAME.

For Outrun it's more a case that the version is the version that most modern arcades are running because it supports freeplay properly while the old version did not (attract doesn't play properly, bad for the screens etc.)

Since a lot of modern places operate on a 'pay on entry, games are on freeplay' business model they end up using that version. This means that 20 years down the line, if somebody dumps those PCBs they'll have that version on, so it makes sense to document it rather than trying to document it in 20 years when information about what it is might have been lost. (and documenting it in HBMAME I don't think would be as effective, MAME is likely to be preserved with time, HBMAME might drop off the face of the earth, especially if the author keeps violating the GPL every time he feels like it) People seem to think that once something is on the Internet it's there forever, but for stuff few people care about that simply isn't true.

For Metal Slug, yeah, the usual scummy NeoGeo bootleggers started selling it as soon as it was made.

Overall they fit with the arcade side MAME's philosophy in documenting what ended up in arcades anyway, if anything the OutRun one shows how the arcade scene changed from back then to how it is now.

The Strider hack is more pointless and can go in HBMAME for all I care, very unlikely any significant number of people are going to be putting it on PCBs.



SmitdoggAdministrator
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Re: Strider original Japanese version graphics/sound fix new [Re: Haze]
#372078 - 12/20/17 09:48 PM


I haven't been in an arcade that set their games to freeplay since I was 5 years old and the local mom n pop charged 5 bucks at the door. There are plenty that charge a door price then set the games to 25 cents but that's not the same thing. Been all around the US, arcades my whole life, never seen freeplay in the last 35 years.



Haze
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Re: Strider original Japanese version graphics/sound fix new [Re: Smitdogg]
#372082 - 12/20/17 11:13 PM


> I haven't been in an arcade that set their games to freeplay since I was 5 years old
> and the local mom n pop charged 5 bucks at the door. There are plenty that charge a
> door price then set the games to 25 cents but that's not the same thing. Been all
> around the US, arcades my whole life, never seen freeplay in the last 35 years.

Isn't it the Galloping Ghosts model? At one time I believe it was anyway.

It also seems pretty common in bars etc. with these old cabinets, as they're making the real money selling you drinks etc. anyway.

At least until all the xx-in-1 boards came along and the cabs were replaced with those and they started charging for them again.

The last time I went to an arcade they had the classics on freeplay too, the modern games charging, but 99% of the floor was just coin pushers, ticket games and fruit machines anyway. The whole place just gave off a soul-crushing sense of exploitation.



SmitdoggAdministrator
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Re: Strider original Japanese version graphics/sound fix new [Re: Haze]
#372083 - 12/20/17 11:18 PM


I'm not sure about GG, but that's only one arcade. If they are like that in England that's cool but it's not common in the US. The closest thing I've seen is arcades that charge a door fee and then have the games run on nickels but even then the machines are never set to freeplay. There's no point in charging a door fee then setting them to freeplay because people will always be willing put more change in them either way. That's why they came.



agard
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Re: Strider original Japanese version graphics/sound fix new [Re: MooglyGuy]
#372087 - 12/21/17 12:01 AM


Mame is all about preservation & getting as many people as possible to see what arcade games & the hardware was all about back in the day, so why not show people how the games have progressed in the various revisions & what the developers wanted the games to look like & play like. what is wrong in having a game playing every time you start it up with the cheats already enabled instead of having to go to cheats & set it up every time. some people wouldn't know how to set something like Strider up with uncensored pixels. Simply having Strider already set up to play with uncensored pixels is only the same as having Metal Slug play with blood on all the time as soon as you boot it up. I'm pretty sure that some things in Mame got implemented to the official build the same way i'm doing, saying I think it might be a good idea if cheats would be on just by enabling them just the once. I mean the thread was set up to have discussions about it & i'm simply voicing mine.



SmitdoggAdministrator
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Re: Strider original Japanese version graphics/sound fix new [Re: agard]
#372088 - 12/21/17 12:17 AM


> Mame is all about preservation

True.

> & getting as many people as possible to see what
> arcade games & the hardware was all about back in the day,

Not true.

> so why not show people how
> the games have progressed in the various revisions

Revisions are in mame, this sentence makes no sense.

> & what the developers wanted the
> games to look like & play like.

If you're saying a hack that calls itself a fix is what original developers wanted, you are talking out of your ass, but even if it was true, who cares what they wanted. What is important is what was made. Virtually every arcade game was made on such a time restraint that the result wasn't what they would have done if they were given more time. That's history.

> what is wrong in having a game playing every time you
> start it up with the cheats already enabled instead of having to go to cheats & set
> it up every time. some people wouldn't know how to set something like Strider up with
> uncensored pixels. Simply having Strider already set up to play with uncensored
> pixels is only the same as having Metal Slug play with blood on all the time as soon
> as you boot it up. I'm pretty sure that some things in Mame got implemented to the
> official build the same way i'm doing, saying I think it might be a good idea if
> cheats would be on just by enabling them just the once. I mean the thread was set up
> to have discussions about it & i'm simply voicing mine.

I don't have any argument against making cheats save their place like this.



B2K24
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Re: Strider original Japanese version graphics/sound fix new [Re: agard]
#372089 - 12/21/17 12:53 AM


The cheat menu is extremely simple to navigate as it currently is.

Also, since you talk about preservation; It's MAME's job or duty to present the user with the exact same experience as that same person walking up to a real cab with real hardware (which is does to the best of it's ability), so we should be happy there's even cheats at all.

Besides that some games have shitloads of cheats so how would one differentiate what's auto enabled and what is not?






MooglyGuy
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Re: Strider original Japanese version graphics/sound fix new [Re: Smitdogg]
#372092 - 12/21/17 01:20 AM


> Virtually every arcade game was made on such a
> time restraint that the result wasn't what they would have done if they were given more time. That's history.

And the opposite is also the case in terms of design and features. On console and arcade games alike, the games' creators specifically designed the games to take the best advantage of the hardware that they had. The designers intended for the games to be as good as possible given the hardware that they fucking had.

What agard seems to want is for MAME to hack the shit out of games based on some hypothetical situation where two programmers were having a cigarette and one of them said, "Wouldn't it be cool if [thing]," and that's just not how game development works. That's not how any of it works. That's dumb as fuck. It's the kind of talk that clearly comes from someone who has never shipped a game in his or her life and yet is all full of impractical opinions as to how things "should" be.



SmitdoggAdministrator
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Re: Strider original Japanese version graphics/sound fix new [Re: MooglyGuy]
#372095 - 12/21/17 01:31 AM


MAME is more for history and HBMAME is made for hacking fun. But it's not agard's fault that he has these feelings, it's MAME's. Like you said the argument for certain hacks being in and others out is flimsy as hell. No proof and guesses (i.e. seeing Phoenix version of a game in 1 arcade then saying they were all regularly used and now everyone updated to cleaner versions which aren't in MAME), higher preference to higher quality hacks (1 of trap's hacks found in 1 arcade and then everything he has touched goes in MAME), and then there are other hacks that have gone in arcades but were blocked from MAME because a mamedev labeled them "made for MAME". Certain multicarts blocked because 1 mamedev thinks it's crappy. Yeah I would say flimsy at best.



Haze
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Re: Strider original Japanese version graphics/sound fix new [Re: Smitdogg]
#372096 - 12/21/17 01:44 AM


(i.e. seeing
> Phoenix version of a game in 1 arcade then saying they were all regularly used and
> now everyone updated to cleaner versions which aren't in MAME),

Did you check ebay a few years ago? it was almost an epidemic with 'suicide free' being used as a major selling point all over the place. I'd be willing to bet there are more boards out there running the phoenix roms than genuine ones, people will literally killing them to avoid battery death and being able to sell them as boards that won't die on you.

Sure there are cleaner solutions now, but there's an absolute ton of boards out there that are running the phoenix roms, and never going to run anything else, because repairing them properly actually costs money and again means they'll suicide at a later date (which nobody outside of purists wants, they'd rather have potentially buggy phoenix code...)

> Certain
> multicarts blocked because 1 mamedev thinks it's crappy.

Since multi-carts / pcbs are probably the single biggest selling arcade product of the last 10 years I'm not sure why they'd be blocked. Sure they're crappy, but so are half the Korean games we support, or about 50% of what Atari / Midway made outside of their actual hits. Not emulating them would be misrepresenting the direction in which the arcade scene went.

You should also consider that the MAME rules are more relaxed now since the merge of MESS, if something seems worth documenting it gets documented. Yes, there's a level of subjective judgement that has to be applied there, but it's never unreasonable.

I expect in the next 5-10 years we'll see various test programs added to the drivers too, things that help users diagnose hardware faults and the like, as well as stress test the emulation of various chips, because by supporting them MAME is being useful, and they can be useful in terms of regression testing MAME. Things that are useful are important.

As for Strider, it would have been censored because the market would have rejected it otherwise, I think it's fair to say that the censorship was intended because the developers would actually want their game to reach an audience and be played. Having content that is unsuitable for the target audience would have prevented that, resulted in Strider getting a limited release at best, and we'd probably not be talking about Strider now because nobody would have played / remembered it.



Qun Mang
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Re: Strider original Japanese version graphics/sound fix new [Re: Haze]
#372097 - 12/21/17 01:51 AM


> Isn't it the Galloping Ghosts model? At one time I believe it was anyway.
>

Yes it is. I was last there a couple years ago, but it was $15 to enter (recently upped to $20) then play all you want all day. I think a few had credit buttons, but most were on freeplay if I remember correctly.

I was at Gameworks a week or so ago and they were definitely credit-based though. Of course that meant swiping a card rather than inserting coins, but credits just the same. The few classics were just one credit, up to I think 12 credits for a Star Wars game with a pod you sat down in. There was a theater/ride-type game for 20 credits, but that was something special where you strapped yourself in, had fans blowing in your face for wind effects, and you just shot at zombies (other enemies in other chooseable scenarios) in a rail shooter for a set time until game over.



SmitdoggAdministrator
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Re: Strider original Japanese version graphics/sound fix new [Re: Haze]
#372098 - 12/21/17 01:51 AM


Yes I saw the Phoenix rush on eBay but to be fair I never saw a single one of them sell to a buyer who I am aware of them running an arcade and planning to put it there. So you're saying you are assuming eBay buyers are arcade operators. CPS2 was probably the most popular arcade hardware ever made? And maybe the most collected by gamers, but I don't have any numbers to back that up.

So are you saying the rule is any arcade game sold on eBay is eligible for MAME? It's not putting them in MAME that is the problem, it's that there is a double standard.



Haze
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Re: Strider original Japanese version graphics/sound fix new [Re: Smitdogg]
#372100 - 12/21/17 01:56 AM


> Yes I saw the Phoenix rush on eBay but to be fair I never saw a single one of them
> sell to a buyer who I am aware of them running an arcade and planning to put it
> there. So you're saying you are assuming eBay buyers are arcade operators. CPS2 was
> probably the most popular arcade hardware ever made? And maybe the most collected by
> gamers, but I don't have any numbers to back that up.
>

I've seen a few reboot when I've been to arcades, they've been phoenix sets. They penetrated the market something special. I suspect the places that rent out the machines or whatever installed the phoenix kits first chance they got to reduce their maintenance costs.

> So are you saying the rule is any arcade game sold on eBay is eligible for MAME? It's
> not putting them in MAME that is the problem, it's that there is a double standard.

A judgement call will be made on a case-by-case basis.

There are other things in MAME that were probably never operated outside of one arcade back in the day, things that were sold as conversion kits that ultimately nobody wanted so got tossed in the garbage instead, but 30 years later one that survived ends up being sold. You wouldn't argue those don't belong in MAME, typically they end up selling for quite a lot of money now too. I wouldn't say it was double standards, it's just trying to make a sensible call in each case.



MooglyGuy
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Re: Strider original Japanese version graphics/sound fix new [Re: Smitdogg]
#372101 - 12/21/17 01:59 AM


I don't give a shit about all that, I agree with you. But "how the developers intended the games to be"? Fuck all that.



SmitdoggAdministrator
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Re: Strider original Japanese version graphics/sound fix new [Re: Haze]
#372102 - 12/21/17 02:00 AM



> A judgement call will be made on a case-by-case basis.

That's the problem. While we're on the (exact) subject, this Strider hack has been used in arcades, so what exactly is the reason it isn't in MAME when other games I mentioned are?

> There are other things in MAME that were probably never operated outside of one
> arcade back in the day, things that were sold as conversion kits that ultimately
> nobody wanted so got tossed in the garbage instead, but 30 years later one that
> survived ends up being sold. You wouldn't argue those don't belong in MAME, typically
> they end up selling for quite a lot of money now too. I wouldn't say it was double
> standards, it's just trying to make a sensible call in each case.

That's a paragraph of guesswork.



SmitdoggAdministrator
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Re: Strider original Japanese version graphics/sound fix new [Re: MooglyGuy]
#372103 - 12/21/17 02:01 AM


Yeah that's basically talking out the ass to push a personal agenda. People hate using 2 versions of MAME...



Haze
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Re: Strider original Japanese version graphics/sound fix new [Re: Smitdogg]
#372104 - 12/21/17 02:04 AM


> > A judgement call will be made on a case-by-case basis.
>
> That's the problem. While we're on the (exact) subject, this Strider hack has been
> used in arcades, so what exactly is the reason it isn't in MAME when other games I
> mentioned are?
>

has it?

> > There are other things in MAME that were probably never operated outside of one
> > arcade back in the day, things that were sold as conversion kits that ultimately
> > nobody wanted so got tossed in the garbage instead, but 30 years later one that
> > survived ends up being sold. You wouldn't argue those don't belong in MAME,
> typically
> > they end up selling for quite a lot of money now too. I wouldn't say it was double
> > standards, it's just trying to make a sensible call in each case.
>
> That's a paragraph of guesswork.

Educated guesswork tho. Look at some of the things that have shown up that not a single person remembers playing. Kyle Hodgetts junk like "The Masters of Kin" where to this day we've not even seen a 2nd PCB to dump the colour PROMs. It's essentially a commercial homebrew game from back in the day and I'm not sure anybody in their right mind would have bothered converting a Track and Field to run it.

I'd almost be willing to bet there's only 1 PCB of it at most, and that if it ended up in an arcade they converted it back within a week.

A lot of the SF2 hacks probably got sold to 1 arcade before being hacked further too.

There are way more phoenix boards out there than any of those.



SmitdoggAdministrator
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Re: Strider original Japanese version graphics/sound fix new [Re: Haze]
#372105 - 12/21/17 02:14 AM


> > > A judgement call will be made on a case-by-case basis.
> >
> > That's the problem. While we're on the (exact) subject, this Strider hack has been
> > used in arcades, so what exactly is the reason it isn't in MAME when other games I
> > mentioned are?
> >
>
> has it?

I thought all the Capcom/Sega fix roms saw a little light of day in Tokyo after they were put together but I could be wrong. I don't hold proof. I can ask Shoutime if he has seen it on location. He's probably put it on location himself.

>
> > > There are other things in MAME that were probably never operated outside of one
> > > arcade back in the day, things that were sold as conversion kits that ultimately
> > > nobody wanted so got tossed in the garbage instead, but 30 years later one that
> > > survived ends up being sold. You wouldn't argue those don't belong in MAME,
> > typically
> > > they end up selling for quite a lot of money now too. I wouldn't say it was
> double
> > > standards, it's just trying to make a sensible call in each case.
> >
> > That's a paragraph of guesswork.
>
> Educated guesswork tho. Look at some of the things that have shown up that not a
> single person remembers playing. Kyle Hodgetts junk like "The Masters of Kin" where
> to this day we've not even seen a 2nd PCB to dump the colour PROMs. It's essentially
> a commercial homebrew game from back in the day and I'm not sure anybody in their
> right mind would have bothered converting a Track and Field to run it.
>
> I'd almost be willing to bet there's only 1 PCB of it at most, and that if it ended
> up in an arcade they converted it back within a week.

How's that any more educated than saying there were probably 20 of them and because we know operators threw old unprofitable PCBs away all the time and only 1 survived that we know of? This game and situation type aren't in question at all, we've drifted off.



SmitdoggAdministrator
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Also new [Re: Haze]
#372106 - 12/21/17 02:23 AM


Also, and correct me if I'm wrong but drifting further into the Masters of Kin realm and Olde Double Standard Towne, there is also an invisible line that was made around 1997 that serves as a cutoff for hacks. While I'm not advocating adding all hacks after 1997, you must admit it's borderline madness that anything before that line gets added without question and everything after is a mess.



SmitdoggAdministrator
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I forgot to mention a solution new [Re: Haze]
#372107 - 12/21/17 03:25 AM


My solution would be to make a new hard set of rules that is able to cover every situation we've run into that can be pointed to that covers every situation as objectively as possible. It would have to be written over time most likely within mamedev mailing list but the judge system is not logical according to Spock.



Haze
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Re: Also new [Re: Smitdogg]
#372108 - 12/21/17 03:28 AM


> Also, and correct me if I'm wrong but drifting further into the Masters of Kin realm
> and Olde Double Standard Towne, there is also an invisible line that was made around
> 1997 that serves as a cutoff for hacks. While I'm not advocating adding all hacks
> after 1997, you must admit it's borderline madness that anything before that line
> gets added without question and everything after is a mess.

I'm not aware of any such invisible line..

There are a whole bunch of Korean hacks made after that date which are supported, there are NeoGeo bootlegs newer than that etc. There are PGM games that were found on carts too. If 1997 is anything it's the point at which there really aren't a significant amount of games from any of the major manufacturers that MAME can emulate well as most had switched to more complex platforms.

Also previously a bunch of hacks from the 80s were removed, and only reinstated in the last few years because they still kept showing up on PCBs so it was realised that removing them was a mistake.

As I said, things just get looked at on a case-by-case basis.

It's important to document things which are part of the arcade scene, be it current or past, because 20 years from now MAME needs to show what happened, and the things that are happening now are still part of that.

People doing things specifically to try and get them into MAME will likely just be ignored, things that actually seem to be of worth will be looked at.

The hacks found on PCBs that usually don't get added are just cases where an arcade operator has hacked a date, there's nothing creative, memorable, or worthwhile about that at all. Cases with significant code modifications are more interesting, cases where games shipped under different names and it's those names people remember likewise.

Some hacks have real historical value, because they were a starting point for a developer who then moved on to other things (it's been said before that Toaplan's(?) early Mahjong stuff was just hacks for example) There are also odd cases where what look to be simply hacks were presented as official games "Super Moon Cresta" being an example, it's clearly just a hack but that hack is apparently the Grelmin 'Original' Likewise pretty much all the Taito Brasil stuff is unofficially hacked / translated / modified to run on other hardware, clearly without approval of Taito Japan.

Then we've got weird ones, like what look like 100% legitimate alt sets from companies really only known to bootleg games. One of the Spanish Puckman sets actually looks like a different code revision specifically made for the usual Spanish coinage setup, all the code is offset, so unless somebody very carefully went over every line of the code and adjusted all the offsets / jumps then it's probably somehow an original set they got Namco to make (and really if you just wanted to hack in the coinage stuff there are far easier ways to do it) We could have just dismissed everything that company put out as a hack, because most of their products are, then we would have missed that one.

Bootlegs can tell interesting stories about which protections bootleggers had manage to crack, which they hadn't, what type of hardware was cost effective to clone, what wasn't etc. (especially with sound systems, where you see most bootleggers opted for the cheapest they could go) In some cases the bootlegs we have look like a labour of love, an awful lot of work gone into replacing the protection routines, even rewriting parts of the game to work with different hardware or where code has been painstakingly reconstructed from split encrypted/decrypted code and data, it's an absolutely fascinating subject at code level.



Haze
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Re: I forgot to mention a solution new [Re: Smitdogg]
#372109 - 12/21/17 03:34 AM


> My solution would be to make a new hard set of rules that is able to cover every
> situation we've run into that can be pointed to that covers every situation as
> objectively as possible. It would have to be written over time most likely within
> mamedev mailing list but the judge system is not logical according to Spock.

hard and fast rules can be damaging, there are always other factors to consider.

we tried hard and fast rules in the past, stuff ended up being lost / removed that shouldn't have been.



SmitdoggAdministrator
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Re: Also new [Re: Haze]
#372110 - 12/21/17 03:40 AM



> People doing things specifically to try and get them into MAME will likely just be
> ignored, things that actually seem to be of worth will be looked at.


Which new hacks have you seen that are less interesting than the average old one? To a player.


> The hacks found on PCBs that usually don't get added are just cases where an arcade
> operator has hacked a date, there's nothing creative, memorable, or worthwhile about
> that at all. Cases with significant code modifications are more interesting, cases
> where games shipped under different names and it's those names people remember
> likewise.


We've gotten into the point where we agree on levels that I'm not arguing but what you describe isn't entirely what I've seen. Did we ever even add those Xevious hacks from the late 90s? That's the oldest case I can think of where something was rejected for being created basically after mame's creation.



SmitdoggAdministrator
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Re: I forgot to mention a solution new [Re: Haze]
#372111 - 12/21/17 03:42 AM


OK, think of new ones and speak them to other people on the internet and see what they say about them.



Haze
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Re: Also new [Re: Smitdogg]
#372112 - 12/21/17 03:48 AM


> > People doing things specifically to try and get them into MAME will likely just be
> > ignored, things that actually seem to be of worth will be looked at.
>
>
> Which new hacks have you seen that are less interesting than the average old one? To
> a player.
>

Silly palette hacks, boss unlock hacks, stuff that's really only a few bytes changed. Stuff that hasn't even been tested on real hardware, where the person making the hacks likely hasn't even considered it. Basically hacks that are being made for people playing on emulators. Things like the 'Pacman kill screen fix' are nice trivia, but again typically simple things you can more easily just document with the cheat engine. I doubt anybody really cares if their Pacman PCB has a killscreen or not. They were made with the intention of 'this is cool' not 'this is going to change how you use your PCBs'

>
> > The hacks found on PCBs that usually don't get added are just cases where an arcade
> > operator has hacked a date, there's nothing creative, memorable, or worthwhile
> about
> > that at all. Cases with significant code modifications are more interesting, cases
> > where games shipped under different names and it's those names people remember
> > likewise.
>
>
> We've gotten into the point where we agree on levels that I'm not arguing but what
> you describe isn't entirely what I've seen. Did we ever even add those Xevious hacks
> from the late 90s? That's the oldest case I can think of where something was rejected
> for being created basically after mame's creation.

MAME supports things like the Space Invaders multi-game, and would support the Missile Command one too if somebody fixed the emulation. Those were clearly made after 1997 and even sold commercially. It also supports a Pacman Multigame* (SuperABC) that was sold and by association the crappy Skate Kids hack of SMB that the same company sold also gets supported. Programs like MAME were likely used to help test things during development but they were intended for real hardware. There's also the Pacman on World Cup 90 hardware thing which we know was made by a Mamedev, but ironically enough ended up being found on a number of PCBs in Spain presumably because Arcade ops thought it was a cheap way to make a game people actually wanted to play out of some old junk PCBs.

I'm not aware of which Xevious hacks you're talking about.

MAME is still playing catchup with some of these things, sometimes it is actually difficult because they were ignored at the time and even if some of them were offered online at one point have become much more difficult to source. Avoiding making that mistake again is kinda important.

* This one I've actually seen on location too.



SmitdoggAdministrator
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Re: Also new [Re: Haze]
#372114 - 12/21/17 04:17 AM


http://web.archive.org/web/20070105183443/homepage3.nifty.com/dopenet/xp/install_j.html

also an example of auction it was sold on, url was http://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/127143083

in 2009. Had this hack installed.

I have years old emails I can forward if you want more info.



Haze
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Re: Also new [Re: Smitdogg]
#372115 - 12/21/17 04:37 AM


> http://web.archive.org/web/20070105183443/homepage3.nifty.com/dopenet/xp/install_j.html
>
>
> also an example of auction it was sold on, url was
> http://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/127143083
>
> in 2009. Had this hack installed.
>
> I have years old emails I can forward if you want more info.

There's a fair chance it would be eligible under current guidelines, was clearly made for the PCB and by the sounds of it intended for people to use in the arcades.



Kitsune Sniper
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Re: Strider original Japanese version graphics/sound fix new [Re: Smitdogg]
#372118 - 12/21/17 08:26 AM


> I don't have any argument against making cheats save their place like this.

But there is one: It would interfere with bootup memory checks, unless you patch THAT too, and then you'd have to deal with the bug reports that aren't bugs because they're caused by cheats that shouldn't even be turned on at startup.



SmitdoggAdministrator
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Re: Strider original Japanese version graphics/sound fix new [Re: Kitsune Sniper]
#372134 - 12/21/17 05:39 PM


That's a nonsense argument. They're cheats so just like all other cheats so they aren't allowed to be used for bug reports. If you're saying a couple of more users would be confused and post junk reports, tough shit, what a hard life for a mametester.



agard
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Re: Strider original Japanese version graphics/sound fix new [Re: B2K24]
#372150 - 12/22/17 01:20 AM


Ok I see all these arguments so for things like this is there something like a dat could be made for example the command dat puts up all the moves for games so why not a dat where it tells you how to change the game to uncensored mode. I bet there must be other games that you can do other things to as then other people would know. If people haven't read this post then obviously they wouldn't know that the game was censored in the end, I myself like to know who made the game & the story behind it & also those little things like a previous post about puzzle bobble 2 where the games has an xmas theme when it comes round to xmas with the games time clock, I think that was it. It could be added to the story dat.



SmitdoggAdministrator
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Re: Strider original Japanese version graphics/sound fix new [Re: agard]
#372151 - 12/22/17 01:27 AM


For cheats there is http://cheat.retrogames.com/. For some changes you have to hack roms. For adding tips there are several dat files that could add info like that. history.dat has web submissions last I checked.



Haze
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Re: Strider original Japanese version graphics/sound fix new [Re: agard]
#372152 - 12/22/17 01:47 AM


> Ok I see all these arguments so for things like this is there something like a dat
> could be made for example the command dat puts up all the moves for games so why not
> a dat where it tells you how to change the game to uncensored mode. I bet there must
> be other games that you can do other things to as then other people would know. If
> people haven't read this post then obviously they wouldn't know that the game was
> censored in the end, I myself like to know who made the game & the story behind it &
> also those little things like a previous post about puzzle bobble 2 where the games
> has an xmas theme when it comes round to xmas with the games time clock, I think that
> was it. It could be added to the story dat.


Puzzle Bobble 2X 'Merry Christmas' has nothing to do with the date, it's just something you can turn on / off in service mode. The hardware doesn't even have an RTC.

Interestingly it's also how we know for sure that 2X wasn't released outside of Japan, that screen crashes it if you hack the region to anything else and if Taito had planned it for anywhere else it's very unlikely that would be the case.


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