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SmitdoggAdministrator
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DU: Syvalion fans, click here
#369263 - 09/01/17 03:53 AM


We extracted the prototype/unreleased Euro and USA Syvalion roms from the TAITO Legends 2 PS2 release!
















fortuna_chan
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Re: DU: Syvalion fans, click here new [Re: Smitdogg]
#369270 - 09/01/17 05:27 AM


So good, i've play this game in my ps2

Note: Taito memories 2 (japanese release of Taito legends in Playstation 2) simulate the sound effects in Ballon bomber very good too and better that actual samples in mame



gregf
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Re: Taito Balloon Bomber new [Re: fortuna_chan]
#369275 - 09/01/17 06:29 AM





>Taito memories 2 (japanese release of Taito legends in Playstation 2) simulate the sound
>effects in Ballon bomber very good too and better that actual samples in mame

Done, but in a hack way and should be done better. I wouldn't put faith in the Taito commercial product.....especially anything of Taito games from 1970s with maybe exception of Space Invaders in case Taito supports that.


An actual Balloon Bomber pcb is needed so any of the current missing proms or roms can be dumped. And also actual logic schematics of Taito Balloon Bomber.....that is if even possible to find these days in order to see game logic and audio output logic....assuming the schematics info is printed without any mistakes.


--
src/mame/audio/8080bw.cpp

Taito "Balloon Bomber" The sounds are not the correct ones ...Discrete Sound
(copied from indianbt)

Hit a balloon
Shot Sound
Base Hit
Hit a Bomb
Bonus Base at 1500 points
--



fortuna_chan
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Re: Taito Balloon Bomber new [Re: gregf]
#369279 - 09/01/17 08:36 AM


Well, this take more challenge, add this proms and the discrete sounds

But at least is possible add the samples from the PS2 or PSP release (are exactly the same game)


Good details:

Taito legends power-up / Taito legends pocket(PSP version)

Phoenix: Taito licence, not emulated sounds (before the new effects)
Space Invaders: Sounds used for the Space invaders DX (shots, exlosions and extra life)
Lunar rescue: no differences
Crazy ballon: same sounds like the ps2 of Taito memories Gekan (different to mame samples)
Rainbow island extra: old mcu protection/simulation, probably 80/90% of old bugs

the rest games not difference find


Taito Memories Joukan II:

Scramble formation (Tokio): Probably used the bootleg protection (not confirmed for now, need the disc again for verify)

The rest games no problems or diferences

Taito Memories II gekan

Operation wolf: interesting, played sometimes and can confirm the protection not exists in this game, is hard based in old simulation before the new implementation of the mcu (no alert, the hostage in jungle stage, the choppers in concentration camp, etc.)

Other changes not detected for now, need more time for playing



PS: is possible extract this games and tring verify if the sets used are the same in old mame roms or are new dumped versions


PS2: Taito legends 2 versions of this 2 games are really hacks or official unreleased versions:
Puchi carat (mame only has the japanese version)
Cleopatra fortune (japanese version in mame)



Haze
Reged: 09/23/03
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Re: DU: Syvalion fans, click here new [Re: Smitdogg]
#369291 - 09/01/17 01:33 PM


> We extracted the prototype/unreleased Euro and USA Syvalion roms from the TAITO
> Legends 2 PS2 release!
>

does it differ from the proto currently in MAME?



gregf
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Re: DU: Syvalion fans new [Re: Haze]
#369292 - 09/01/17 02:00 PM



>> We extracted the prototype/unreleased Euro and USA Syvalion roms from the TAITO
>> Legends 2 PS2 release!

>does it differ from the proto currently in MAME?

Good question.

src/mame/drivers/taito_h.cpp

-
GAME( 1988, syvalion, 0, syvalion, syvalion, taitoh_state, 0, ROT0, "Taito Corporation", "Syvalion (Japan)", MACHINE_SUPPORTS_SAVE )
GAME( 1988, syvalionp, syvalion, syvalion, syvalionp, taitoh_state, 0, ROT0, "Taito Corporation", "Syvalion (World, prototype)", MACHINE_SUPPORTS_SAVE )
-



I forgot the prototype version was added a while ago by Unigame at the same time when various Arcadia rom sets were also supported.

-
ROM_START( syvalionp ) Syvalion (World, prototype) [Unigame]
MAME 0.152
12/24/13
-


The Syvalion (Japan) shows its age and likely needing to be redumped because Unigame's Syvalion set is much better documented.



MetalliC
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Re: DU: Syvalion fans, click here new [Re: Haze]
#369297 - 09/01/17 04:07 PM


> > We extracted the prototype/unreleased Euro and USA Syvalion roms from the TAITO
> > Legends 2 PS2 release!
> >
>
> does it differ from the proto currently in MAME?

much different. lmk if you need it.



TServo2049
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Reged: 11/24/03
Posts: 39
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Re: Taito Balloon Bomber new [Re: fortuna_chan]
#369303 - 09/01/17 06:14 PM


Did Taito lose the source code for Rainbow Islands as well as Bubble Bobble?

I have a hunch that Taito hacked around the C-chip and MCU protection in a similar fashion to how MAME used to. If they couldn't properly archive the source code to Bubble Bobble, I don't have faith that they kept complete code for their protection chips. I am sure someone else before you had already pointed out that the official compilation versions of Operation Wolf had similar inaccuracies to the old MCU simulation/hacks in MAME (probably Haze?)

However, I do know that the sound effects in Taito re-releases of Space Invaders are, if not 100% accurate, at least more correct than MAME; when discrete sound emulation was added, it was based on the Midway version. It seems that Midway wrote their own discrete sound logic, because the sound effects are different, most noticeably the sound when you kill an enemy. (And there is still variance between MAME's sounds and real Midway versions too, notably the pitch, timbre and/or modulation of the laser sound, but that's a totally different subject.) The old sound samples in MAME came from a Taito board, and YouTube videos of Japanese and official UK/Europe Taito versions have the familiar sound effects Taito has always used in connection with Space Invaders. Finally, I played both a Midway upright and a Japanese Taito tabletop at California Extreme, I had my ear up to the speaker on the tabletop version and I heard the same "Taito" sound effects.

That said, I doubt that MAME will ever return to samples for the Taito sets. The Taito discrete sound clearly needs its own emulation (as does Space Invaders Part II, which had no sound variation between Taito and Midway versions), and there are already comments in the driver code on the subject of Taito sounds vs. Midway sounds, though no actual work has yet been done. The closest we have in MAME right now is the discrete sound emulation in Midway's Space Invaders II, where to make it easier to tell which player had killed an enemy, it would play the "Midway" sound when one player scored a hit, and the "Taito" sound for the other player. (I'm not sure if any of the other Taito sounds were used though - the shot sound, the UFO sound, the UFO hit sound, the player death sound, the extra life sound, etc.)



gregf
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Re: DU: Syvalion new [Re: MetalliC]
#369308 - 09/01/17 08:24 PM



>>> We extracted the prototype/unreleased Euro and USA Syvalion roms from the TAITO
>>> Legends 2 PS2 release!

>> does it differ from the proto currently in MAME?

>much different.

If gameplay is closer to Syvalion (Japan) rom set, the description should be 'unreleased' instead of prototype. I'd like to believe that the alternate region Taito pcbs of the game have yet to be found. The community/world lucked out that someone (Unigame) had a pcb of Syvalion (World, prototype) when it was added a few years earlier.



src/mame/drivers/taito_h.cpp

-
GAME( 1988, syvalion, 0, syvalion, syvalion, taitoh_state, 0, ROT0, "Taito Corporation", "Syvalion (Japan)", MACHINE_SUPPORTS_SAVE )
GAME( 1988, syvalionp, syvalion, syvalion, syvalionp, taitoh_state, 0, ROT0, "Taito Corporation", "Syvalion (World, prototype)", MACHINE_SUPPORTS_SAVE )
-



Haze
Reged: 09/23/03
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Re: DU: Syvalion new [Re: gregf]
#369310 - 09/01/17 08:45 PM


> >>> We extracted the prototype/unreleased Euro and USA Syvalion roms from the TAITO
> >>> Legends 2 PS2 release!
>
> >> does it differ from the proto currently in MAME?
>
> > much different.
>
> If gameplay is closer to Syvalion (Japan) rom set, the description should be
> 'unreleased' instead of prototype. I'd like to believe that the alternate region
> Taito pcbs of the game have yet to be found. The community/world lucked out that
> someone (Unigame) had a pcb of Syvalion (World, prototype) when it was added a few
> years earlier.
>
>

Well if it gets added to MAME it will probably be noted as being from the PS2 port, rather than unreleased. If it gets added to MAME pretty much depends on if people are running this version on PCBs tho.

It's entirely possible it's not a proto at all, but a retranslation for this release, it happens, I've been asked to fix up a game for a similar package before.



gregf
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Re: Taito Balloon Bomber new [Re: TServo2049]
#369313 - 09/01/17 08:56 PM



>Did Taito lose the source code for Rainbow Islands as well as Bubble Bobble?
>I have a hunch that Taito hacked around the C-chip and MCU protection in a similar fashion
>to how MAME used to. If they couldn't properly archive the source code to Bubble Bobble, I
>don't have faith that they kept complete code for their protection chips. I am sure someone
>else before you had already pointed out that the official compilation versions of Operation
>Wolf had similar inaccuracies to the old MCU simulation/hacks in MAME

A lot of the past products weren't archived. iirc someone had posted an old article link here from around 2005 or 2006 in which it mentioned how Sega didn't save code from games that were protected with either MC-8123, or FD 1089 or FD 1094 cpus in which they would eventually no longer work. The type of stuff that would put fear in Sega fans back then. Fortunately many of the titles (excluding alternate region versions still not yet preserved) are now preserved.



>However, I do know that the sound effects in Taito re-releases of Space Invaders are, if
>not 100% accurate, at least more correct than MAME; when discrete sound emulation was
>added, it was based on the Midway version. It seems that Midway wrote their own discrete
>sound logic, because the sound effects are different, most noticeably the sound when you
>kill an enemy. (And there is still variance between MAME's sounds and real Midway
>versions too, notably the pitch, timbre and/or modulation of the laser sound, but that's
>a totally different subject.) The old sound samples in MAME came from a Taito board, and
>YouTube videos of Japanese and official UK/Europe Taito versions have the familiar sound
>effects Taito has always used in connection with Space Invaders. Finally, I played both a
>Midway upright and a Japanese Taito tabletop at California Extreme, I had my ear up to
>the speaker on the tabletop version and I heard the same "Taito" sound effects.

It was in 2007 when Derrick Renaud worked with Zsolt Vasvari in separating the 8080 cpu hardware (L-shaped pcbs) of Midway games into their own separate file when updating and improving the various Midway 8080 video games including adding discrete/analog audio for some of the games in 2007. Midway schematics are readily around compared to Taito logic schematics which is why Derrick and Zsolt were able to improve many of the Midway games.



>That said, I doubt that MAME will ever return to samples for the Taito sets. The Taito
>discrete sound clearly needs its own emulation (as does Space Invaders Part II, which had
>no sound variation between Taito and Midway versions), and there are already comments in
>the driver code on the subject of Taito sounds vs. Midway sounds, though no actual work
>has yet been done. The closest we have in MAME right now is the discrete sound emulation
>in Midway's Space Invaders II, where to make it easier to tell which player had killed an
>enemy, it would play the "Midway" sound when one player scored a hit, and the "Taito"
>sound for the other player. (I'm not sure if any of the other Taito sounds were used
>though - the shot sound, the UFO sound, the UFO hit sound, the player death sound, the
>extra life sound, etc.)

Although both Derrick and Zsolt are no longer involved, couriersud has/had been updating discrete related (netlist and analog etc) along the way. Difference of audio sound effects between Midway versus Taito could be condition of pcb (parts etc), voltage currents probably being different with Taito versus Midway hardware, parts and components used with Taito pcbs could be different versus Midway pcbs. And then factor in how the operator has audio adjustment settings (pots) that could be set different since some pot adjusters could be set to pitch frequency, or volume adjustment settings, and maybe settings that adjust the speed output of specific audio effects (such as the sonar sound output of Midway Sea Wolf iirc).



Haze
Reged: 09/23/03
Posts: 4334
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Re: Taito Balloon Bomber new [Re: gregf]
#369314 - 09/01/17 09:25 PM


> > Did Taito lose the source code for Rainbow Islands as well as Bubble Bobble?
> > I have a hunch that Taito hacked around the C-chip and MCU protection in a similar
> fashion
> > to how MAME used to. If they couldn't properly archive the source code to Bubble
> Bobble, I
> > don't have faith that they kept complete code for their protection chips. I am sure
> someone
> > else before you had already pointed out that the official compilation versions of
> Operation
> > Wolf had similar inaccuracies to the old MCU simulation/hacks in MAME
>
> A lot of the past products weren't archived. iirc someone had posted an old article
> link here from around 2005 or 2006 in which it mentioned how Sega didn't save code
> from games that were protected with either MC-8123, or FD 1089 or FD 1094 cpus in
> which they would eventually no longer work. The type of stuff that would put fear in
> Sega fans back then. Fortunately many of the titles (excluding alternate region
> versions still not yet preserved) are now preserved.
>
>

I'm actually more concerned about the non-mainstream stuff.

We have a dump of Sega's Pontoon, including the encrypted CPU, but from what I can tell that was just one part of another multi-board linked setup like the Royal Ascott games etc.

The other parts aren't dumped. We've never seen another board for the display unit that was dumped.

How many other Sega developed gambling games used similar tech, how many are dead and lost forever?

We've still not got any of the Sega gambling games from the 80/90s that used multi-board satellite-like setups emulated, we don't know of any places that still have working machines.

The 'Play 2000' game on cloned Gaelco hardware is only the latest example of this, we've managed to source at least 2 boards of every other Gaelco hardware game using a DS5002FP except that one. Are they destined to just be lost forever?



TServo2049
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Reged: 11/24/03
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Re: Taito Balloon Bomber new [Re: gregf]
#369316 - 09/01/17 10:14 PM


I'm just intrigued by how the enemy death sound is markedly different on Midway boards compared to Taito boards. They both go from high to low (or low to high), but the Taito sound effect seems to be a single oscillation, the Midway one is a rapid series of oscillations. That can't be down to some simple variation in components, can it?



Diet Go Go Fan
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Re: Taito Balloon Bomber new [Re: Haze]
#369328 - 09/02/17 03:45 AM



>
> I'm actually more concerned about the non-mainstream stuff.
>
> We have a dump of Sega's Pontoon, including the encrypted CPU, but from what I can
> tell that was just one part of another multi-board linked setup like the Royal Ascott
> games etc.
>
> The other parts aren't dumped. We've never seen another board for the display unit
> that was dumped.
>
> How many other Sega developed gambling games used similar tech, how many are dead and
> lost forever?
>
> We've still not got any of the Sega gambling games from the 80/90s that used
> multi-board satellite-like setups emulated, we don't know of any places that still
> have working machines.
>
> The 'Play 2000' game on cloned Gaelco hardware is only the latest example of this,
> we've managed to source at least 2 boards of every other Gaelco hardware game using a
> DS5002FP except that one. Are they destined to just be lost forever?

I found a website that lists ROM names and SHA-1's for many gambling machines; Sega titles include "Black Jack", "Black Jack (satellite)", and "Royal Ascot (not the same ROMs in MAME, probably the main board)". Can ROMs be built just from knowing the SHA-1's?



StilettoAdministrator
They're always after me Lucky ROMS!
Reged: 03/07/04
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Re: Taito Balloon Bomber new [Re: Diet Go Go Fan]
#369331 - 09/02/17 07:27 AM


> I found a website that lists ROM names and SHA-1's for many gambling machines; Sega
> titles include "Black Jack", "Black Jack (satellite)", and "Royal Ascot (not the same
> ROMs in MAME, probably the main board)". Can ROMs be built just from knowing the
> SHA-1's?

Huh? No. SHA-1's are numbers - file signatures - that contain considerably less data than the actual ROMs.

If there's ROM names and SHA-1's, we probably already have the dumps, they're just not in MAME yet. You never know, though.

- Stiletto



ShouTime
PCB Collector
Reged: 11/25/11
Posts: 41
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Re: Taito Balloon Bomber new [Re: gregf]
#369332 - 09/02/17 07:37 AM


Sega has unencrypted versions for many of their battery games archived as that's what they used for repairs when the battery module stock was depleted.

Taito does not have most of its history digitally archived.


> > Did Taito lose the source code for Rainbow Islands as well as Bubble Bobble?
> > I have a hunch that Taito hacked around the C-chip and MCU protection in a similar
> fashion
> > to how MAME used to. If they couldn't properly archive the source code to Bubble
> Bobble, I
> > don't have faith that they kept complete code for their protection chips. I am sure
> someone
> > else before you had already pointed out that the official compilation versions of
> Operation
> > Wolf had similar inaccuracies to the old MCU simulation/hacks in MAME
>
> A lot of the past products weren't archived. iirc someone had posted an old article
> link here from around 2005 or 2006 in which it mentioned how Sega didn't save code
> from games that were protected with either MC-8123, or FD 1089 or FD 1094 cpus in
> which they would eventually no longer work. The type of stuff that would put fear in
> Sega fans back then. Fortunately many of the titles (excluding alternate region
> versions still not yet preserved) are now preserved.
>
>
> > However, I do know that the sound effects in Taito re-releases of Space Invaders
> are, if
> > not 100% accurate, at least more correct than MAME; when discrete sound emulation
> was
> > added, it was based on the Midway version. It seems that Midway wrote their own
> discrete
> > sound logic, because the sound effects are different, most noticeably the sound when
> you
> > kill an enemy. (And there is still variance between MAME's sounds and real Midway
> > versions too, notably the pitch, timbre and/or modulation of the laser sound, but
> that's
> > a totally different subject.) The old sound samples in MAME came from a Taito board,
> and
> > YouTube videos of Japanese and official UK/Europe Taito versions have the familiar
> sound
> > effects Taito has always used in connection with Space Invaders. Finally, I played
> both a
> > Midway upright and a Japanese Taito tabletop at California Extreme, I had my ear up
> to
> > the speaker on the tabletop version and I heard the same "Taito" sound effects.
>
> It was in 2007 when Derrick Renaud worked with Zsolt Vasvari in separating the 8080
> cpu hardware (L-shaped pcbs) of Midway games into their own separate file when
> updating and improving the various Midway 8080 video games including adding
> discrete/analog audio for some of the games in 2007. Midway schematics are readily
> around compared to Taito logic schematics which is why Derrick and Zsolt were able to
> improve many of the Midway games.
>
>
> > That said, I doubt that MAME will ever return to samples for the Taito sets. The
> Taito
> > discrete sound clearly needs its own emulation (as does Space Invaders Part II,
> which had
> > no sound variation between Taito and Midway versions), and there are already
> comments in
> > the driver code on the subject of Taito sounds vs. Midway sounds, though no actual
> work
> > has yet been done. The closest we have in MAME right now is the discrete sound
> emulation
> > in Midway's Space Invaders II, where to make it easier to tell which player had
> killed an
> > enemy, it would play the "Midway" sound when one player scored a hit, and the
> "Taito"
> > sound for the other player. (I'm not sure if any of the other Taito sounds were used
>
> > though - the shot sound, the UFO sound, the UFO hit sound, the player death sound,
> the
> > extra life sound, etc.)
>
> Although both Derrick and Zsolt are no longer involved, couriersud has/had been
> updating discrete related (netlist and analog etc) along the way. Difference of audio
> sound effects between Midway versus Taito could be condition of pcb (parts etc),
> voltage currents probably being different with Taito versus Midway hardware, parts
> and components used with Taito pcbs could be different versus Midway pcbs. And then
> factor in how the operator has audio adjustment settings (pots) that could be set
> different since some pot adjusters could be set to pitch frequency, or volume
> adjustment settings, and maybe settings that adjust the speed output of specific
> audio effects (such as the sonar sound output of Midway Sea Wolf iirc).



Dumped: 3on3 DUNK MADNESS US, A.B. Cop JP, AIR INFERNO JP, AquaJack US, BATTLE SHARK Joystick, CRACKIN' DJ PART 2 JP, DOUBLE AXLE DX US, ENFORCE W, GP RIDER JP, GUN SURVIVOR 2 JP/W, GUNBUSTER US, GUNHARD, HANG PILOT US, Ikari III JP, JET WAVE JP, Last Survivor, MARS TV JP, MAZAN US, NINJA ASSAULT JP/W, OutRunners JP, Panic ROAD DE, PUNCH-OUT!! JP, Radirgy Ver. A, SPACE GUN JP/US, STARBLADE W, SUPER RANGER DE, SUZUKA 8 Hours 2 JP, TERRA FORCE JP, THUNDER ZONE JP, Western Express JP



gregf
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Re: Taito Balloon Bomber new [Re: ShouTime]
#369345 - 09/02/17 08:51 PM



>>iirc someone had posted an old article
>>link here from around 2005 or 2006 in which it mentioned how Sega didn't save code
>>from games that were protected with either MC-8123, or FD 1089 or FD 1094 cpus in
>>which they would eventually no longer work.

>Sega has unencrypted versions for many of their battery games archived as that's what they
>used for repairs when the battery module stock was depleted.

That was probably something the journalist/writer didn't bother to really check their facts or at least should have had an editor remind the writer to do more research when that article was written back in 2005/2006. It might have been an article from one of the kid videogame magazines published back then, but I recall someone provided the link....it might have been posted and talked about on old MAME.net web site forum now that I try and remember because old MAME.net forums were still active up until about around 2008 or 2009 or maybe 2010 iirc until Aaron Giles closed them and the site.

The article had a "Nostradamus"-like catastrophic prediction and all the Sega games would 'disappear once and for all'. You probably would have had a laugh or two had you been able to read it at the time. :-)



>Taito does not have most of its history digitally archived.

That's a bummer knowing it's probably harder to find and preserve any of their 1970s era games.



gregf
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Reged: 09/21/03
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Re: Taito Balloon Bomber new [Re: TServo2049]
#369346 - 09/02/17 09:01 PM


>I'm just intrigued by how the enemy death sound is markedly different on Midway boards
>compared to Taito boards. They both go from high to low (or low to high), but the Taito
>sound effect seems to be a single oscillation, the Midway one is a rapid series of
>oscillations. That can't be down to some simple variation in components, can it?

If Derrick Renaud were still around, he would have been the ideal person that could answer that. I don't know if anyone has done a parts list comparison between pcbs (Taito versus Midway) for a game such as Space Invaders.

Edited by gregf (09/02/17 09:28 PM)



ArcadeG
MAME Fan
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Posts: 4
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Re: Taito Balloon Bomber new [Re: Stiletto]
#369369 - 09/03/17 03:28 PM


Can you put console things into arcade ones? How does that even work?



fortuna_chan
Por que yo hablo español muy bien.
Reged: 06/01/08
Posts: 153
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Re: DU: Syvalion fans, click here new [Re: Smitdogg]
#369402 - 09/04/17 04:10 AM


Is is for information, probably has roms inside of the gamecart (too rom) for emulation the arcade games

In a nintendo DS game named "Konami classics series: arcade hits" the american release has various games who too has good differences:

Super basketball (mame emulated): has a different title: Basketball
The manual mention this game is a USA release
Super basketball in the japanese and european versions not has differences

Track and field (mame emulated, the centuri/konami): This has only the Konami licence inside, and has different high score music "Chariot of fire" altered(for copyright)

Rush'n attack (Green beret): Same from above, the high score music altered (for copyright)

Horror maze: Is the USA version of tutankham!

Rainbowbell: The manual says is the USA version of Twinbee!








Edit:

Playing a lot, need investigation (or extract the roms) about 2 games in Taito legends 2 (euro and usa versions):

Cleopatra fortune: has english instructions and others minor changes
Puchi carat: Has english instructions and not before text in battle (probbly not ending)

Edited by fortuna_chan (09/04/17 05:17 AM)


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