MAMEWorld >> News
Previous thread Previous  View all threads Index   Next thread Next   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Pages: 1

krick
Get Fuzzy
Reged: 02/09/04
Posts: 4186
Send PM


Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
#373634 - 02/03/18 01:10 AM


http://donkeykongforum.com/index.php?topic=2055



GroovyMAME support forum on BYOAC



B2K24
MAME @ 15 kHz Sony Trinitron CRT user
Reged: 10/25/10
Posts: 2549
Send PM


Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated new [Re: krick]
#373641 - 02/03/18 06:39 AM Attachment: DVEqJBjVwAE2Baa.jpg large.jpg 104 KB (1 downloads)




[ATTACHED IMAGE - CLICK FOR FULL SIZE]

Attachment






John Doe
I've been here before
Reged: 01/16/15
Posts: 88
Send PM


Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated new [Re: krick]
#373653 - 02/03/18 07:04 PM


> http://donkeykongforum.com/index.php?topic=2055

Sounds like MAME needs fixing so you can't tell.



PoorKenny
MAME Fan
Reged: 09/04/12
Posts: 29
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Send PM


Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated new [Re: krick]
#373655 - 02/03/18 08:17 PM


If anyone isn't up to date on the DK world record stuff, this should get you caught up.




John IVModerator
IV/Play, MAME, MAMEUI
Reged: 09/22/03
Posts: 1623
Loc: Snohomish, WA, USA
Send PM


Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated new [Re: krick]
#373657 - 02/03/18 09:25 PM


https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/02/d...h-score-claims/



john iv
http://www.mameui.info/



SmitdoggAdministrator
Reged: 09/18/03
Posts: 16208
Send PM


Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated new [Re: John IV]
#373660 - 02/03/18 10:29 PM


My 2 cents, unless it was a pieced together inp cheating, it would probably be harder in mame because it would probably add some small form of input lag. Secondly all you have to do for a direct feed setup to the pcb (theoretically) is a Jamma adapter and supergun. Any idiot could set that up. I know that's not what he did but that article calls it brain surgery.



Ocean View
MAME Fan
Reged: 06/22/09
Posts: 9
Send PM


Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated new [Re: Smitdogg]
#373663 - 02/03/18 10:54 PM


Can we all please get a sense of perspective here. Cheating or not cheating, the real crime will always be his haircut.



John Doe
I've been here before
Reged: 01/16/15
Posts: 88
Send PM


Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated new [Re: Smitdogg]
#373666 - 02/03/18 11:07 PM


> Any idiot could set that up. I know that's not what he did but that article
> calls it brain surgery.

The way they talk about how MAME works sounds like a virgin talking about sex. I hope they are just dumbing it down for the audience.

Edited by John Doe (02/03/18 11:08 PM)



The tECHIDNA
MAMEtesters Hall-of-Famer and Chaos Emerald Guardian
Reged: 09/25/03
Posts: 205
Send PM


Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated new [Re: Smitdogg]
#373668 - 02/03/18 11:16 PM


A JAMMA adapter for a non-JAMMA game? Would Clay Cowgill's adapters work?

I support the decision to invalidate and take down the high score records (and apparently there is much schadenfreude to be had, from what I've been reading -- I haven't see King of Kong yet), but I can see where this can get ugly even for "authentic" DK cabs:

How do we know a DK cab wasn't JAMMA converted?
How do we know all of the resistors and capacitors are working to the levels they've would've fresh from the factory?
Is the high score "really" correct after potential bitrot/incorrect PSU/not enough voltage/the monitor wasn't from 1981/the ROMs have wrong stickers/Shigeru Miyamoto didn't bless it as genuine/The Ikegami conspiracy/... WHEELS WITHIN WHEELS MAN

...anyhoo, while MAME and other emulators shouldn't be used as a gauge for human, non-TA speed/highscore runs by this type of standard, this can open the door for all sorts of high scores to be potentially challenged.

Just make a separate highscore board for emulators and ones for the "actual" hardware and be done with it.



*******
The tECHIDNA
*******
Don't make me go Hyper on you.

Be one in a million helping to find disease cures. Join Folding@Home.




SmitdoggAdministrator
Reged: 09/18/03
Posts: 16208
Send PM


Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated new [Re: The tECHIDNA]
#373669 - 02/03/18 11:28 PM


> A JAMMA adapter for a non-JAMMA game?

Jamma adapters are specifically for non-Jamma games. I have one for my Vs. Super Mario Bros. board, early Capcom, Sega etc.


> Would Clay Cowgill's adapters work?

I'm not familiar with them and I can't make any promises on DK hardware since I haven't set it up but here is a readymade.

https://www.mikesarcade.com/cgi-bin/store.pl?sku=NIN2JAMMA

Plug the board into that then that into a supergun that is setup to record video.


> I support the decision to invalidate and take down the high score records (and
> apparently there is much schadenfreude to be had, from what I've been reading -- I
> haven't see King of Kong yet), but I can see where this can get ugly even for
> "authentic" DK cabs:
>
> How do we know a DK cab wasn't JAMMA converted?

I don't know how that would invalidate anything. If anything you're going to add some form of lag and make the game more difficult.


> How do we know all of the resistors and capacitors are working to the levels they've
> would've fresh from the factory?

That level of scrutiny obviously can never be part of the situation.


> Is the high score "really" correct after potential bitrot/incorrect PSU/not enough
> voltage/the monitor wasn't from 1981/the ROMs have wrong stickers/Shigeru Miyamoto
> didn't bless it as genuine/The Ikegami conspiracy/... WHEELS WITHIN WHEELS MAN
>
> ...anyhoo, while MAME and other emulators shouldn't be used as a gauge for human,
> non-TA speed/highscore runs by this type of standard, this can open the door for all
> sorts of high scores to be potentially challenged.
>
> Just make a separate highscore board for emulators and ones for the "actual" hardware
> and be done with it.

I think twin galaxies already mixes the 2. I think the biggest issue is saying it's from real hardware and actually using an emulator.



John Doe
I've been here before
Reged: 01/16/15
Posts: 88
Send PM


Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated new [Re: The tECHIDNA]
#373670 - 02/03/18 11:29 PM


> How do we know a DK cab wasn't JAMMA converted?

How do we know the DK cab hasn't had a TAS kit installed?



Mr. DoAdministrator
MAME Art Editor
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 4451
Loc: California
Send PM


Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated new [Re: The tECHIDNA]
#373672 - 02/03/18 11:49 PM



> Just make a separate highscore board for emulators and ones for the "actual" hardware
> and be done with it.


This part actually exists already... Twin Galaxies does keep up a separate high score table for games played on MAME.




RELAX and just have fun. Remember, it's all about the games.




The tECHIDNA
MAMEtesters Hall-of-Famer and Chaos Emerald Guardian
Reged: 09/25/03
Posts: 205
Send PM


Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated new [Re: Smitdogg]
#373673 - 02/04/18 12:05 AM


Thanks y'all -- didn't know that TG did separate boards, which that's the way it should be. Also, now I have more confidence to get some of the pre-JAMMA boards. I'm just now getting back into the MAME side of things after life schnahs.

Speaking of Twin Galaxies, here's their official response:


Quote:


“Twin Galaxies,” [the Twin Galaxies Administration and Adjudication team] said, “is in the process of fully reviewing the compelling evidence provided by Jeremy Young to support his current score dispute case against Billy Mitchell's Donkey Kong score. We will do this thoroughly and impartially. In the meantime, we will continue to observe this discussion by experts in the community and will also examine any further evidence that may be provided during this review period.”

So, there is no official ruling that has happened as of yet on the Twin Galaxies Scoreboards, but the matter is carefully being considered. As they did with the Todd Rogers case, they are likely putting this under the microscope, gathering all evidence, and thoroughly examining the validity of all information provided before reaching a decision. The Editorial team will continue to follow the story as it progresses.




"Experts in the Community"? MAMEdevs, sounds like y'all been summoned for assistance.



*******
The tECHIDNA
*******
Don't make me go Hyper on you.

Be one in a million helping to find disease cures. Join Folding@Home.




The tECHIDNA
MAMEtesters Hall-of-Famer and Chaos Emerald Guardian
Reged: 09/25/03
Posts: 205
Send PM


Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated new [Re: Ocean View]
#373674 - 02/04/18 12:09 AM


> Can we all please get a sense of perspective here. Cheating or not cheating, the real
> crime will always be his haircut.

My goddess, YES:



The Spaceballs helmet is not a good look.

Edited by The tECHIDNA (02/04/18 12:09 AM)



*******
The tECHIDNA
*******
Don't make me go Hyper on you.

Be one in a million helping to find disease cures. Join Folding@Home.




SmitdoggAdministrator
Reged: 09/18/03
Posts: 16208
Send PM


Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated new [Re: The tECHIDNA]
#373675 - 02/04/18 12:12 AM


I don't understand the question. Are you wanting a mamedev to say something like "that mame version would add .2 seconds of input lag and .3 seconds of delay per 10 stages". I don't understand any question and answer combo helping the situation. He didn't tell the truth about the game source, that's not going to change and if people want an answer you have to first have a question.



The tECHIDNA
MAMEtesters Hall-of-Famer and Chaos Emerald Guardian
Reged: 09/25/03
Posts: 205
Send PM


Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated new [Re: Smitdogg]
#373676 - 02/04/18 12:24 AM


I've no idea what "further evidence" TG is looking for or for whom TG regards as "experts in the community". I think they're looking for perhaps a MAMEdev saying something to the effect of "yep, Mitchell totally used MAME, and here's how without using animated GIFs."



*******
The tECHIDNA
*******
Don't make me go Hyper on you.

Be one in a million helping to find disease cures. Join Folding@Home.




B2K24
MAME @ 15 kHz Sony Trinitron CRT user
Reged: 10/25/10
Posts: 2549
Send PM


Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated new [Re: krick]
#373681 - 02/04/18 02:06 AM


It's everywhere now...

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/02/d...h-score-claims/



R. Belmont
Cuckoo for Konami
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 9606
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
Send PM


Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated new [Re: krick]
#373701 - 02/04/18 10:22 PM


> http://donkeykongforum.com/index.php?topic=2055

On current MAME, pretty much the only worthwhile difference is additional input lag. Contrary to what the post says, there isn't a TAS version of MAME (yet) that can create trick .INP files.

And did anyone understand what he was on about with the screen rotation?



R. Belmont
Cuckoo for Konami
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 9606
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
Send PM


Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated new [Re: Smitdogg]
#373702 - 02/04/18 10:25 PM


> My 2 cents, unless it was a pieced together inp cheating, it would probably be harder
> in mame because it would probably add some small form of input lag. Secondly all you
> have to do for a direct feed setup to the pcb (theoretically) is a Jamma adapter and
> supergun. Any idiot could set that up. I know that's not what he did but that article
> calls it brain surgery.

Yeah, that's one of several places the article falls on its face technically. Direct feed from basically any standard-res PCB is a piece of cake.



R. Belmont
Cuckoo for Konami
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 9606
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
Send PM


Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated new [Re: The tECHIDNA]
#373703 - 02/04/18 10:28 PM


> How do we know a DK cab wasn't JAMMA converted?
> How do we know all of the resistors and capacitors are working to the levels they've
> would've fresh from the factory?
> Is the high score "really" correct after potential bitrot/incorrect PSU/not enough
> voltage/the monitor wasn't from 1981/the ROMs have wrong stickers/Shigeru Miyamoto
> didn't bless it as genuine/The Ikegami conspiracy/... WHEELS WITHIN WHEELS MAN

"King of Kong"'s lynchpin is that Nintendo "authenticated" the PCB, and that's absolute garbage, even if it makes the likes of the folks on that board feel better about themselves. We now know that Nintendo didn't even program the game, and aside from Miyamoto most of the staff of that time is long gone.



R. Belmont
Cuckoo for Konami
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 9606
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
Send PM


Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated new [Re: John Doe]
#373704 - 02/04/18 10:29 PM


> > How do we know a DK cab wasn't JAMMA converted?
>
> How do we know the DK cab hasn't had a TAS kit installed?

Yeah, you can run a TAS on real hardware with some trivial interfacing.



Haze
Reged: 09/23/03
Posts: 4581
Send PM


Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated new [Re: R. Belmont]
#373718 - 02/05/18 02:31 PM


> > http://donkeykongforum.com/index.php?topic=2055
>
> On current MAME, pretty much the only worthwhile difference is additional input lag.
> Contrary to what the post says, there isn't a TAS version of MAME (yet) that can
> create trick .INP files.
>
> And did anyone understand what he was on about with the screen rotation?

actually somebody at MARP was clearly using something with rewind capability (or 'load old state and resume replay) at one point, and another some kind of slowdown / re-recording technique (so speed and timestamps reported correctly) as they were weaving through bullet patterns on a shooter basically moving out the way at the last frame and it was obvious from anybody who had played the game that they had 0 knowledge of the patterns and surviving a few million last second dodges isn't really realistic, nor were the single frame direction changes etc (nobody does single frame direction taps over the course of many frames by hand, it basically isn't even possible)

also macro key and autofire stuff, although that's not as much use in DK

but yes, people have cheated with inps before, I'm not sure said builds are public, but it has been done.



Haze
Reged: 09/23/03
Posts: 4581
Send PM


Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated new [Re: R. Belmont]
#373719 - 02/05/18 02:35 PM


> > How do we know a DK cab wasn't JAMMA converted?
> > How do we know all of the resistors and capacitors are working to the levels
> they've
> > would've fresh from the factory?
> > Is the high score "really" correct after potential bitrot/incorrect PSU/not enough
> > voltage/the monitor wasn't from 1981/the ROMs have wrong stickers/Shigeru Miyamoto
> > didn't bless it as genuine/The Ikegami conspiracy/... WHEELS WITHIN WHEELS MAN
>
> "King of Kong"'s lynchpin is that Nintendo "authenticated" the PCB, and that's
> absolute garbage, even if it makes the likes of the folks on that board feel better
> about themselves. We now know that Nintendo didn't even program the game, and aside
> from Miyamoto most of the staff of that time is long gone.

yeah I'm not sure Nintendo of today would even know the difference between a real PCB and an xx-in-1 hacked to run just DK ;-)



Brian Deuel
Old Man
Reged: 01/09/04
Posts: 127
Send PM


Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated new [Re: The tECHIDNA]
#373723 - 02/05/18 05:06 PM


> > Can we all please get a sense of perspective here. Cheating or not cheating, the
> real
> > crime will always be his haircut.
>
> My goddess, YES:
>
>
> The Spaceballs helmet is not a good look.



"Highway to the danger zone!!"



Sune
Connected
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 5521
Loc: Lagoa Santa, Brasil
Send PM


Color Inverter thing new [Re: Smitdogg]
#373748 - 02/06/18 06:26 PM


> My 2 cents, unless it was a pieced together inp cheating, it would probably be harder
> in mame because it would probably add some small form of input lag. Secondly all you
> have to do for a direct feed setup to the pcb (theoretically) is a Jamma adapter and
> supergun. Any idiot could set that up. I know that's not what he did but that article
> calls it brain surgery.

It's a step up from that but still doesn't require a genius.

https://www.mikesarcade.com/cgi-bin/store.pl?sku=NININVAMP

S



R. Belmont
Cuckoo for Konami
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 9606
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
Send PM


Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated new [Re: Haze]
#373749 - 02/06/18 07:08 PM


> but yes, people have cheated with inps before, I'm not sure said builds are public,
> but it has been done.

Yeah, it turns out the stock mamedev.org build is the best for this kind of cheating: you simply enable -record and -play at the same time, which I'm surprised actually works. WolfMAME explicitly prevents that.



Haze
Reged: 09/23/03
Posts: 4581
Send PM


Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated new [Re: R. Belmont]
#373751 - 02/07/18 01:18 AM


> > but yes, people have cheated with inps before, I'm not sure said builds are public,
> > but it has been done.
>
> Yeah, it turns out the stock mamedev.org build is the best for this kind of cheating:
> you simply enable -record and -play at the same time, which I'm surprised actually
> works. WolfMAME explicitly prevents that.

but ultimately, if you want to, all you need do is recompile wolfmame without that check, and you get something that looks like it was recorded at full speed even if you were playing it at 5%



Dullaron
Diablo III - Dunard #1884
Reged: 07/22/05
Posts: 5732
Loc: Fort Worth, Tx
Send PM


Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated new [Re: B2K24]
#373755 - 02/07/18 02:36 PM


Busted



Sune
Connected
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 5521
Loc: Lagoa Santa, Brasil
Send PM


Konkey Dong new [Re: krick]
#373971 - 02/15/18 03:56 PM Attachment: Konkey Dong.jpg 77 KB (1 downloads)


LOL

[ATTACHED IMAGE]

Attachment



Dullaron
Diablo III - Dunard #1884
Reged: 07/22/05
Posts: 5732
Loc: Fort Worth, Tx
Send PM


Re: Konkey Dong new [Re: Sune]
#373993 - 02/16/18 06:28 AM


> LOL

Too funny. lol



Qun Mang
Legend of Link
Reged: 12/12/03
Posts: 675
Loc: Hidden Hyrulian city Lurkopolis
Send PM


It's official- Twin Galaxies dumps Mitchell's scores, bans him new [Re: krick]
#375605 - 04/13/18 01:17 AM


In case you missed the news, which seems to be everywhere. Seriously, even the Chicago Tribune is in on the reporting.

King of Kong’s Billy Mitchell’s high scores wiped out by Twin Galaxies

Steve Wiebe Recognised As First Million Point Donkey Kong Record Holder As Billy Mitchell's Scores Are Nuked

Sounds like all his scores were removed, including first perfect Pac-man game. Congrats to the new first DK million-point winner.. Mr. Wiebe.



B2K24
MAME @ 15 kHz Sony Trinitron CRT user
Reged: 10/25/10
Posts: 2549
Send PM


Re: It's official- Twin Galaxies dumps Mitchell's scores, bans him new [Re: Qun Mang]
#375606 - 04/13/18 03:19 AM


> In case you missed the news, which seems to be everywhere. Seriously, even the
> Chicago Tribune is in on the reporting.
>
> King of Kong’s Billy Mitchell’s high scores wiped out by Twin Galaxies
>
> Steve Wiebe Recognised As First Million Point Donkey Kong Record Holder As Billy
> Mitchell's Scores Are Nuked
>
> Sounds like all his scores were removed, including first perfect Pac-man game.
> Congrats to the new first DK million-point winner.. Mr. Wiebe.

Another movie incoming in 5...4...3...2...1...



mike20599
MAME Fan
Reged: 09/14/08
Posts: 209
Send PM


MAME is the performance enhancing drug of competitive retrogaming -NT- new [Re: Qun Mang]
#375621 - 04/14/18 02:03 PM


Winners don't use drugs.



Qun Mang
Legend of Link
Reged: 12/12/03
Posts: 675
Loc: Hidden Hyrulian city Lurkopolis
Send PM


Just leaving this video "statement" here new [Re: Qun Mang]
#375636 - 04/16/18 01:08 AM


Billy Mitchell @ Midwest Gaming Classic.




Nate
MAME Fan
Reged: 07/19/10
Posts: 29
Send PM


Re: It's official- Twin Galaxies dumps Mitchell's scores, bans him new [Re: B2K24]
#375649 - 04/16/18 03:20 PM


and his asshole response https://realotakugamer.com/billy-mitchel...-are-legitimate



R. Belmont
Cuckoo for Konami
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 9606
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
Send PM


Re: It's official- Twin Galaxies dumps Mitchell's scores, bans him new [Re: Nate]
#375743 - 04/19/18 10:43 PM


> and his asshole response
> https://realotakugamer.com/billy-mitchel...-are-legitimate

You're being manipulated by the movie. Like all "reality" TV they had to generate false drama; for King Of Kong they did it by pre-scripting everything Mitchell said to make him sound like he was twirling his moustache and waiting for moose and squirrel.



Moose
Don't make me assume my ultimate form!
Reged: 05/03/04
Posts: 1427
Loc: Outback, Australia
Send PM


Re: It's official- Twin Galaxies dumps Mitchell's scores, bans him new [Re: R. Belmont]
#375764 - 04/21/18 07:46 AM


> waiting for moose and squirrel.

I'm here.

Another "interesting" video:




Moose
Don't make me assume my ultimate form!
Reged: 05/03/04
Posts: 1427
Loc: Outback, Australia
Send PM


Re: Konkey Dong new [Re: Sune]
#375765 - 04/21/18 07:47 AM


Gaaad, 9.5% - that's a strong beer, right up there with what some crazy monks in France brew.



MooglyGuy
Renegade MAME Dev
Reged: 09/01/05
Posts: 1650
Send PM


Re: It's official- Twin Galaxies dumps Mitchell's scores, bans him new [Re: R. Belmont]
#375766 - 04/21/18 10:23 AM


> > and his asshole response
> >
> https://realotakugamer.com/billy-mitchel...-are-legitimate
>
> You're being manipulated by the movie. Like all "reality" TV they had to generate
> false drama; for King Of Kong they did it by pre-scripting everything Mitchell said
> to make him sound like he was twirling his moustache and waiting for moose and
> squirrel.

Yeah, except for the fact that his behavior in the intervening decade has more than proven that he is, in fact, a fucking douchebag.


Pages: 1

MAMEWorld >> News
Previous thread Previous  View all threads Index   Next thread Next   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Extra information Permissions
Moderator:  John IV, Tafoid 
2 registered and 31 anonymous users are browsing this forum.
You cannot start new topics
You cannot reply to topics
HTML is enabled
UBBCode is enabled
Thread views: 1679