|
Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
#286163 - 05/13/12 12:07 AM
|
|
|
I've found myself in a bit of a rut with some of my console emulators. Nestopia, while still pretty solid, is starting to show signs of age and disarray (odd audio sync issues that nobody can quite figure out). ZSNES and SNES9X are dead in the water (though I've recently switched to BSNES there), Magic Engine still has some odd problems with some of my real discs, and so forth.
I think this'd probably be a good a time as any to pull a new build of MESS and look at it. Most of my prior interest in it over the past roughly ten years has been in the CoCo drivers, which have been pretty solid.
I'm not expecting miracle 100% perfection, but I really HAVE been remiss in not keeping up with the latest news.
Has anyone else actually replaced existing emulators with MESS lately, and if so, for what systems?
|
---
Try checking the MAME manual at http://docs.mamedev.org
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: Firehawke]
#286178 - 05/13/12 06:52 AM
|
|
|
> I've found myself in a bit of a rut with some of my console emulators. Nestopia, > while still pretty solid, is starting to show signs of age and disarray (odd audio > sync issues that nobody can quite figure out). ZSNES and SNES9X are dead in the water > (though I've recently switched to BSNES there), Magic Engine still has some odd > problems with some of my real discs, and so forth. > > I think this'd probably be a good a time as any to pull a new build of MESS and look > at it. Most of my prior interest in it over the past roughly ten years has been in > the CoCo drivers, which have been pretty solid. > > I'm not expecting miracle 100% perfection, but I really HAVE been remiss in not > keeping up with the latest news. > > Has anyone else actually replaced existing emulators with MESS lately, and if so, for > what systems?
>>>>>>>>>>
I have replaced basically ALL of my 2D console emulators with MESS. Reason being is, it is wonderfully integrated into MAMEHub and my friend and I are always using it to play games online. Having MAME Hub, where it combines both MESS and MAME into one program for online play and giving you the ability to select games from both emulators by simply typing the name is nothing short of fantastic!
MESS plays all the snes, genesis, sms, nes, and gba games I throw at it, except for Yoshi's Island, Super Punch Out and a couple others. It's such an amazing emu, and is quickly becoming THE go to emu for 2D console games, while the others(ZSNES, Snes9x, Gens, FCE Ultra, VBA, No$Gba, DEGA, etc...) are being phased out with little to no supports or development progress these days.
|
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: Outrun2006]
#286193 - 05/13/12 12:33 PM
|
|
|
Thanks for the info. What about BSNES? I heard it is the best (read most accurate) SNES emulator. Does the one in MESS match it?
On a related question, why doesn't MESS just use the BSNES emulator?
|
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: XtraSmiley]
#286211 - 05/13/12 07:21 PM
|
|
|
Without even looking at MESS, I can say that the MESS SNES emulation is pretty good but not up to the BSNES spec.
This is not an attack against MESS, mind you, but more of a note on how Byuu has been hammering on his setup for quite some time now. BSNES is likely to reign at the top for quite awhile at this point, as the others are far enough behind to represent a few years worth of work.
As for the MESS+BSNES question, that's easily answered. It wouldn't work that way. The underlying architecture of MESS is completely different. You'd have to completely rewrite BSNES to cram it into MESS, and if you're doing that, you're probably better off just doing your own code in the first place.
|
---
Try checking the MAME manual at http://docs.mamedev.org
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: Outrun2006]
#286212 - 05/13/12 07:40 PM
|
|
|
> I have replaced basically ALL of my 2D console emulators with MESS. Reason being is, > it is wonderfully integrated into MAMEHub and my friend and I are always using it to > play games online. Having MAME Hub, where it combines both MESS and MAME into one > program for online play and giving you the ability to select games from both > emulators by simply typing the name is nothing short of fantastic!
Okay, I'll grant you that's a pretty nice feature. > MESS plays all the snes, genesis, sms, nes, and gba games I throw at it, except for > Yoshi's Island, Super Punch Out and a couple others. It's such an amazing emu, and is > quickly becoming THE go to emu for 2D console games, while the others(ZSNES, Snes9x, > Gens, FCE Ultra, VBA, No$Gba, DEGA, etc...) are being phased out with little to no > supports or development progress these days.
FCE Ultra I wouldn't necessarily call dead. It seems FCEUX is the branch getting the deepest devwork right now, and checking their changelog shows that while their last official release was mid-last year, they're still working on it as late as May 1st of this year.
I did give MESS a bit of a go last night. Ended up doing a bit of playing with HLSL with it as well. NES seems decent enough, though it really didn't like Akumajou Densetsu. Could be incomplete emulation, could be the fact I'm using a .NES file instead of a softlisted image.
I honestly don't think we're all that far away from a theoretical future where MESS runs a ton of platforms 100% and runs them full speed on your average smartphone hardware.
|
---
Try checking the MAME manual at http://docs.mamedev.org
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: Firehawke]
#286219 - 05/13/12 08:53 PM
|
|
|
> As for the MESS+BSNES question, that's easily answered. It wouldn't work that way. > The underlying architecture of MESS is completely different. You'd have to completely > rewrite BSNES to cram it into MESS, and if you're doing that, you're probably better > off just doing your own code in the first place.
Correct me if I'm wrong, I thought each system's emulator (like in MAME with different arcade systems) was different and only the shell of MESS/MAME connected them up. So, can't BSNES just be added to the MESS family and the interface re-done to launch via the MESS umbrella?
Obviously I know very little of how these things work, so apologies in advance if this sounds stupid.
|
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: XtraSmiley]
#286230 - 05/14/12 12:44 AM
|
|
|
The easiest, and not completely accurate way to describe the issue is 'timing'. You have to understand a bit about how emulation works for this to make sense, so I'm going to summarize.
MAME is, at its core, a set of chip emulations. Each individual hardware driver uses MAME's internal structure code to tie these individual pieces together-- it's this glue holding the pieces together that allows the chips to communicate and for the full emulation to come together. Additionally, this internal structure determines how many times a second each core should be run, direct synchronization between components, and so forth. MESS uses the internal MAME structure.
BSNES is, at its core, a set of chip emulations centered on the SNES and necessary coprocessors. It uses the BSNES internal structure code to tie these pieces together, and this glue is *completely* different from how MAME handles it-- this includes how individual chunks are called on a however-many-times-per-second basis.
If you tried to insert BSNES into MESS as it stands, it'd be shoving square pegs into round holes. To get even the most basic parts to work, you'd have to write shim code to interpret between how MAME drivers and BSNES functions internally (and this likely wouldn't work very well at all!)
This would ALSO be a huge waste of time, because the whole point of MESS is to leverage the existing structures of MAME. Attempting to rewrite the structure to make BSNES code work in MESS would essentially be the same as either rewriting BSNES or rewriting the MESS SNES cores.
On the other hand, someone HAS done what you speak of: Mednafen. Mednafen consists of a baseline frontend (mostly commandline) with a bunch of rewritten emulator cores that use pretty much no shared code between them. In other words, fixes to one part of Mednafen's emulation (say SNES) would have no impact on Gameboy, NES, or any other emulator, because each emulator is self-contained outside of the basic shared front-end.
In the case of MESS and MAME, if an improvement is done to Z80 handling, every last driver in BOTH MESS and MAME would see the results immediately as a result of the shared infrastructure across devices.
|
---
Try checking the MAME manual at http://docs.mamedev.org
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: Firehawke]
#286241 - 05/14/12 02:42 AM
|
|
|
Bsnes is the most accurate and compatible SNES emulator and will probably always be because there's literally not much more to improve on... atleast nothing the human eye can detect. So if you have a powerful enough computer to run it, it's the way to go. If you have an older computer, than Snes9X is your next best option.
Nintendulator is the most accurate NES emulator. Nestopia is also extremely accurate. But Nintendulator is basic with very few features. Nestopia is the most compatible NES emulator. Nestopia is extremely accurate and if you just want to play games it has the most features, eye candy, options, etc. than any other NES emulator in terms of gameplay. Meaning, if you just want to play NES games, than Nestopia is the way to go. BUT, if you are interested in TAS videos, recording playthroughs, recording sound/music, hacking cheat codes, etc. than FCEUX is by far the way to go. FCEUX is probably the best emulator ever made to hack cheat codes with.
Kega Fusion is the best Sega Genesis, Master System, Game Gear, 32X, and Sega CD emulator. But if you are interested in TAS video stuff such as recording videos/music, etc. than "Gens-rr" is the way to go. If you want to hack cheat codes, use "Gens 2.10 Hacking Version" or MESS.
Stella is the best Atari 2600 emulator.
ParaJVE is a good Vectrex emulator.
VBA-M and VBA-rr are the best Game Boy, Game Boy Color, and Game Boy Advance emulators. They are both branches of the original VBA (Visual Boy Advance.) VBA-M and VBA-rr are very similiar with slight differences... such as VBA-rr is more equipped to do TAS video stuff.
As for the TurboGrafX-16, if you don't like Magic Engine... try "Ootake". Ootake has more features and abilities than Magic Engine.
I don't know alot about MESS but I like it's goal. It's only going to improve over time too. Currently, MESS is probably very good to use for old, obscure game consoles. I'm sure somebody with more knowledge of MESS could inform you which game systems is the best to use it for.
------------------------------------------
My favorite emulator out of every game console is Nestopia. It has everything that I could possibly want. The main things that I like about it is:
HQ4X Video Filter Ability to map any feature, key, button, etc. to the gamepad. Fast Foward support Rewind support Most compatible NES emulator Extremely Accurate
I have a Playstation 1 type USB controller (Steel Series 1G USB Controller) that I use. The following is how I map it in Nestopia:
L2 button = Save State R2 button = Load State L1 button = Rewind R1 button = Fast Foward Triangle button = Pauses emulator
|
|
|
| B2K24 |
|
MAME @ 15 kHz Sony Trinitron CRT user
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 10/25/10
|
|
Posts: 2663
|
|
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: OldSchoolGamer]
#286242 - 05/14/12 02:59 AM
|
|
|
> As for the TurboGrafX-16, if you don't like Magic Engine... try "Oomake". Oomake has > more features and abilities than Magic Engine.
It's called Ootake.
|
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: XtraSmiley]
#286243 - 05/14/12 03:00 AM
|
|
|
> Correct me if I'm wrong, I thought each system's emulator (like in MAME with > different arcade systems) was different and only the shell of MESS/MAME connected > them up.
You're definitely wrong concerning both MAME and MESS. What you describe is the architecture in Mednafen, not in MAME (and even Mednafen starts to have some more shared components lately)
The actual MAME/MESS structure works as follows: there is a common emulation core (contained in src/emu/) which emulates several CPUs and audio/video/peripheral chips, by using the same infrastructure for them all; then, there are separate 'driver' files (which are the actual per-system emulators, and are contained in src/mame/ or src/mess/) where these common components are connected in the proper way for each emulated system/hardware to work.
Such an approach has a lot of pros (e.g. by sharing emulated components, improvements for a single system, might help many other ones which use the same chips), but does not allow using other emulator sources directly...
|
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: B2K24]
#286244 - 05/14/12 03:04 AM
|
|
|
yea I mispelled it, thanks for the correction. I corrected it now.
|
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: OldSchoolGamer]
#286245 - 05/14/12 03:05 AM
|
|
|
> Currently, MESS is probably very good to use for old, obscure game > consoles.
wrong. e.g. among the console you mentioned, MESS is definitely as good as the emu you mentioned for e.g. Vectrex and A2600 (I think the only thing Stella has in addition to MESS is the support for some specific homebrew expanded cart, but for classic games MESS should be at the same level of accuracy), and also for Intellivision and Atari Lynx.
it is also very good for classic home computers like c64, coco, IBM PC and classic Macs
|
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: etabeta]
#286249 - 05/14/12 03:23 AM
|
|
|
Quote:
wrong. e.g. among the console you mentioned, MESS is definitely as good as the emu you mentioned for e.g. Vectrex and A2600 (I think the only thing Stella has in addition to MESS is the support for some specific homebrew expanded cart, but for classic games MESS should be at the same level of accuracy), and also for Intellivision and Atari Lynx.
I said ParaJVE is good. I purposely didn't say best because I figured MESS was probably as good. And yes, MESS is basically almost as good as Stella.
The main point I was trying to get across was that MESS is a good emulator with a great goal. But currently, for game consoles such as NES, SNES, Genesis, and GBA the emulators I suggested are much better.
Quote:
it is also very good for classic home computers like c64, coco, IBM PC and classic Macs
There ya go. I figured somebody with more knowledge of MESS could suggest which gaming systems it's best for.
|
|
|
| NLS |
|
Computing Nostalgia Adict
|
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 10/28/03
|
|
Posts: 76
|
|
Loc: GREECE
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: Firehawke]
#286251 - 05/14/12 05:34 AM
|
|
|
WinUAE is the king of Amiga emulation. VICE the best 8bit Commodore emulator. I tend to believe Hexc64 is also better than MESS for C64. These two are very far from current MESS emulation for the respective systems.
Spectrum has some good candidates like (stupidly commercial) Spectaculator, or I also like EmuzWin and ZXSpin (0.7s is the newest - still old - I found though). SainT and blueMSX (which is not just for MSX) are also interesting emulators.
Still MESS is fantastic for what it does (and a possible merge with MAME in all respects would be lovely too). Systems can get better and better and some modules "help" other modules sometimes.
|
---
NLS
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: OldSchoolGamer]
#286252 - 05/14/12 08:18 AM
|
|
|
> VBA-M and VBA-rr are the best Game Boy, Game Boy Color, and Game Boy Advance > emulators. They are both branches of the original VBA (Visual Boy Advance.) VBA-M and > VBA-rr are very similiar with slight differences... such as VBA-rr is more equipped > to do TAS video stuff.
Gambatte is probably more accurate than any VBA derivative as a GB/GBC emulator.
> As for the TurboGrafX-16, if you don't like Magic Engine... try "Ootake". Ootake has > more features and abilities than Magic Engine.
MESS does PCE and PCE-CD pretty damn well these days - are you sure the other emulators are better?
|
|
|
| CTOJAH |
|
MAME Addict
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 07/13/10
|
|
Posts: 980
|
|
Loc: Macedonia,Veles
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: Firehawke]
#286258 - 05/14/12 10:36 AM
|
|
|
While everyone here talk about systems(computers/consoles) which are fairly enough well emulated years ago, (MESS is currently one or more steps behind - unfortunately) I would be very happy to hear that MESS can emulate... ...let me think... ...ahem... ...Jaguar !!! I can not understand that so old console is without proper emulator even today - 20 years after !? If someone could tell me about newest MESS version : Is Rayman (Jaguar) playable ? Also there was obscure 16-bit console released only in Taiwan called Super A'Can I know that the game cartridges (~10) are already dumped, but don't know about its emulation stadium in MESS ? (if any devs work on it at all ?!)
|
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: CTOJAH]
#286261 - 05/14/12 10:58 AM
|
|
|
> ...Jaguar !!! > I can not understand that so old console is without proper emulator even today - 20 > years after !? > If someone could tell me about newest MESS version : Is Rayman (Jaguar) playable ? > Also there was obscure 16-bit console released only in Taiwan called Super A'Can I > know that the game cartridges (~10) are already dumped, but don't know about its > emulation stadium in MESS ? (if any devs work on it at all ?!)
You should try it out instead of pondering...
Rayman runs but without sound.
Super A'can is partly emulated, no sound, see my page: http://messui.the-chronicles.org/supracan/index.html
|
|
|
| R. Belmont |
|
Cuckoo for IGAvania
|
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/21/03
|
|
Posts: 9721
|
|
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: Firehawke]
#286266 - 05/14/12 11:24 AM
|
|
|
> I did give MESS a bit of a go last night. Ended up doing a bit of playing with HLSL > with it as well. NES seems decent enough, though it really didn't like Akumajou > Densetsu. Could be incomplete emulation, could be the fact I'm using a .NES file > instead of a softlisted image.
I know Akumajou Densetsu runs fine. Might indeed be using a loose .NES file, although that worked last time I tried it too. Eta?
|
|
|
| R. Belmont |
|
Cuckoo for IGAvania
|
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/21/03
|
|
Posts: 9721
|
|
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: NLS]
#286267 - 05/14/12 11:29 AM
|
|
|
> WinUAE is the king of Amiga emulation. > VICE the best 8bit Commodore emulator. I tend to believe Hexc64 is also better than > MESS for C64. > These two are very far from current MESS emulation for the respective systems.
That varies. MESS emulates some C= carts that VICE doesn't (notably the Z80 CP/M cart), and generally emulates peripherals to a much higher standard than VICE because Curt Coder is super anal about that stuff Yeah, the SID emulation isn't the greatest and some raster splits don't work because we don't have a cycle-by-cycle 6502 yet, but for the average person wanting to check out some commercial games it works quite well.
|
|
|
| mesk |
|
@ the arcade
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 03/03/11
|
|
Posts: 484
|
|
Loc: Rhode Island
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: R. Belmont]
#286268 - 05/14/12 11:31 AM
|
|
|
> I know Akumajou Densetsu runs fine. Might indeed be using a loose .NES file, although > that worked last time I tried it too. Eta?
It sure does.Just tested it.I used a no-intro rom.Man,the music is so much better in this version then in Castlevania III (USA),although the "Help Me" code does not work in Densetsu
|
|
|
| R. Belmont |
|
Cuckoo for IGAvania
|
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/21/03
|
|
Posts: 9721
|
|
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: OldSchoolGamer]
#286269 - 05/14/12 11:32 AM
|
|
|
> The main point I was trying to get across was that MESS is a good emulator with a > great goal. But currently, for game consoles such as NES, SNES, Genesis, and GBA the > emulators I suggested are much better.
And the point I want to make is that for the popular consoles (NES/SNES/Genesis/GB/GBA) "much better" greatly overstates the user-visible difference when playing a large majority of games. We want people to try MESS, merge or not - contrary to what you may have heard, a lot of the drivers run really well in the common cases. It's not like it was in 2006 or even 2008.
|
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: R. Belmont]
#286270 - 05/14/12 11:36 AM
|
|
|
> > I did give MESS a bit of a go last night. Ended up doing a bit of playing with HLSL > > with it as well. NES seems decent enough, though it really didn't like Akumajou > > Densetsu. Could be incomplete emulation, could be the fact I'm using a .NES file > > instead of a softlisted image. > > I know Akumajou Densetsu runs fine. Might indeed be using a loose .NES file, although > that worked last time I tried it too. Eta?
yup. Japanese Akumajou Densetsu plays fine, if the header is correct. it's only the western version (Castlevania 3) which does not work.
|
|
|
| B2K24 |
|
MAME @ 15 kHz Sony Trinitron CRT user
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 10/25/10
|
|
Posts: 2663
|
|
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: etabeta]
#286274 - 05/14/12 12:40 PM
|
|
|
> yup. Japanese Akumajou Densetsu plays fine, if the header is correct. it's only the > western version (Castlevania 3) which does not work.
yeah, Akumajou Densetsu plays fine from the softlist
|
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: R. Belmont]
#286275 - 05/14/12 12:47 PM
|
|
|
> And the point I want to make is that for the popular consoles > (NES/SNES/Genesis/GB/GBA) "much better" greatly overstates the user-visible > difference when playing a large majority of games. We want people to try MESS, merge > or not - contrary to what you may have heard, a lot of the drivers run really well in > the common cases. It's not like it was in 2006 or even 2008.
I think that MESS/MESS Team should find a way to make clear what it's really good at, understanding by this that it would run well (not necessarily perfect) anything common that anyone could try. This way users know what expectations to have from the emulator. Today, as a user I don't really know what to expect from each driver, or "what is MESS good at". If many users knew that they can use MESS exclusively for say NES emulation, Genesis, or whatever, they would start using it as their emulator for said platform instead of having it on the side as another emulator that I could, maybe, use.
I say this because I would really like to replace all my emulators by MESS, but even drivers that are not working perfectly well are not always marked as "not working", and you end up having problems. Maybe have s stricter policy to "clear" a driver of any "non working" flags. That way, we know if a driver is clear is because it will work, period. (I test mess once in a while, some of these things might have changed and I didn't notice)
This way it would be easier to have a list of drivers that work well. All I'm saying here is basically the way I approach MAME.
|
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: franciscohs]
#286297 - 05/14/12 02:55 PM
|
|
|
Wow, thanks for the replies guys, very informative! I'll be sure and check out MESS as I'd like to one day just run one big emulator for everything on my system, but it's nice to hear where everything is currently.
|
|
|
| B2K24 |
|
MAME @ 15 kHz Sony Trinitron CRT user
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 10/25/10
|
|
Posts: 2663
|
|
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: franciscohs]
#286298 - 05/14/12 03:23 PM
|
|
|
> I think that MESS/MESS Team should find a way to make clear what it's really good at, > understanding by this that it would run well (not necessarily perfect) anything > common that anyone could try. This way users know what expectations to have from the > emulator. Today, as a user I don't really know what to expect from each driver, or > "what is MESS good at". If many users knew that they can use MESS exclusively for say > NES emulation, Genesis, or whatever, they would start using it as their emulator for > said platform instead of having it on the side as another emulator that I could, > maybe, use.
How exactly are they supposed to accomplish that when everything is always changing and a WIP?
The Team is already doing the most difficult tasks by constantly improving, so the least you could do is run a game or use a driver to form that opinion on your own.
Also, the information screens are there for a reason at startup.
|
|
|
| Cable |
|
retro gamer
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 08/30/08
|
|
Posts: 131
|
|
Loc: UK
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: XtraSmiley]
#286302 - 05/14/12 03:43 PM
|
|
|
In the meantime why not use a frontend like Hyperspin or Emuloader. You can tie any emulator you like into them and have all the games for all your emu's running from one program
|
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: B2K24]
#286303 - 05/14/12 03:48 PM
|
|
|
> How exactly are they supposed to accomplish that when everything is always changing > and a WIP? > > The Team is already doing the most difficult tasks by constantly improving, so the > least you could do is run a game or use a driver to form that opinion on your own. > > Also, the information screens are there for a reason at startup.
I'm not sure if you read my post at all, I'm in no way criticizing the work that is being done. One of the specific things I said is that the startup information windows are not always there for some drivers that are not working 99% correct, opposed to MAME, where if I don't see an information screen claiming the game doesn't work I know for sure it works. Even many "imperfect" games work perfectly well for the end user, and the imperfections are sometimes technical issues not evident to the end user.
You take my post as an attack and it's far from it, I've tested things on my own and I have an opinion, and my opinion is the one I expressed. A "working" driver doesn't mean all software/games within it are working properly, so testing a few SNES games won't tell me what's the driver status. MAME has more granularity in this respect, since "working" and "non working" status is listed per game, not per driver.
It would be nice to know which systems are expected to run 99% correct, so I trust to use MESS for all emulation for a given system without having to test each and every game. Maybe at the moment there are no such systems and if this is the case, all drivers should be marked at least as imperfect IMHO.
Lastly, I think it would greatly benefit MESS to have at least one such "perfect" system, and promote that, so that it's usage starts to get traction. By perfect system I mean perfect for the majority of users, like all working status games in MAME, they are generally perfect for any practical purposes.
|
|
|
| R. Belmont |
|
Cuckoo for IGAvania
|
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/21/03
|
|
Posts: 9721
|
|
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: franciscohs]
#286316 - 05/14/12 05:21 PM
|
|
|
> since "working" and "non working" status is listed per game, not per driver.
You do get per-game granularity if you use softlists. MESS itself doesn't override the driver's good/bad status with that data, but frontends can and some do show that. > It would be nice to know which systems are expected to run 99% correct
Those would be the ones where the startup screen doesn't say THIS GAME ISN'T WORKING. (To be fair, a lot of drivers in MESS that do work fine are marked NOT WORKING because the developer is tired of hearing about some specific game that has problems). If you find one that is marked working and nothing runs, it's probably a temporary regression.
|
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: etabeta]
#286327 - 05/14/12 06:45 PM
|
|
|
I'm going to have to look into this a bit more deeply. The audio was missing channels (probably the extra VRC ones) and the handling of the title screen scroll effect seemed way off.
I'll go take another look and see if I can't figure out what's going on.
|
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: Vas Crabb]
#286328 - 05/14/12 06:48 PM
|
|
|
On that point, I have to ask, is MESS still limited to images or is there a way to point it at a real CD yet? That's probably one of the only real limiting factors for me right now on trying PCE on MESS.
|
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: R. Belmont]
#286329 - 05/14/12 06:50 PM
|
|
|
That's precisely why I'm taking the plunge. I kinda miss the days of 1997-2001 or so, where there were huge things on the horizon on a day to day basis. I know those days are long over, but it'd be fun to watch an emulator progress again.
|
|
|
|
Re: Frontend limitations
[Re: Cable]
#286330 - 05/14/12 06:56 PM
|
|
|
...aaaand here's my chance to grump like a cranky old man about the one thing that I have YET to see a front end understand.
Every front end I've ever used comes with the inherent assumption that systems are self-contained and contain no crossover with any other system. I'll give you an example of where this falls. Pick a series-- wait, I've got one right here from earlier in this thread: Castlevania.
There's no way to tell any current frontend I've run across that, yes, Super Castlevania 4 is related to Castlevania on NES, which is also related to Castlevania Bloodlines on Genesis, and SOTN on PSX.
I'd love to be able to tag each of those games as "Castlevania series", then tell the frontend, "Hey, I'm feeling up to some CV. You mind showing me all the CV titles I have on here?" much the same way you can currently say, "Hey, show me all the NES games I have."
|
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: Firehawke]
#286335 - 05/14/12 07:31 PM
|
|
|
> I'm going to have to look into this a bit more deeply. The audio was missing channels > (probably the extra VRC ones)
that is currently unemulated, because until a few months ago there was no easy way to add its emulation on a per-cart base. now the core is much more flexible on this aspect (see the marvels done emulating ISA cards on AT386/AT486, NuBus cards on the classic Macs 68k, and tons of expansion carts on the c64 ), but I haven't had spare time yet to implement the necessary changes for NES...
|
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: etabeta]
#286336 - 05/14/12 07:35 PM
|
|
|
Aha. Okay, now I understand the situation better. No rush, then! I'll keep that sort of thing in mind as I approach further NES testing.
It did play Mega Man 2 rather well, though!
|
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: Firehawke]
#286342 - 05/14/12 08:15 PM
|
|
|
Sure - try NonMESS. It's more or less an accurate snapshot of things today WRT MESS vs. other emus, though bound to have some inaccuracies since it's based in large part on reader feedback. Check especially the MESSy Systems section for good examples of where MESS should be at least as good as any other.
Sorry - a little slow on the draw with this thread.
|
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: Shoegazr]
#286344 - 05/14/12 08:38 PM
|
|
|
Thanks for that link. I'll be using that going forward, though I should have a few comments on some of your choices later tonight.
For instance, I'll leave this one here early:
NullDC over Demul? I thought Demul was better, but maybe I should take a second look on that matchup.
|
|
|
|
Re: Frontend limitations
[Re: Firehawke]
#286347 - 05/14/12 09:05 PM
|
|
|
> I'd love to be able to tag each of those games as "Castlevania series", then tell the > frontend, "Hey, I'm feeling up to some CV. You mind showing me all the CV titles I > have on here?" much the same way you can currently say, "Hey, show me all the NES > games I have."
Create an ini for it, yo....though each FE might need one in a specific format.
|
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: Firehawke]
#286348 - 05/14/12 09:18 PM
|
|
|
> Thanks for that link. I'll be using that going forward, though I should have a few > comments on some of your choices later tonight. > > For instance, I'll leave this one here early: > > NullDC over Demul? I thought Demul was better, but maybe I should take a second look > on that matchup.
Yeah, nullDC is about on par with Demul WRT compatibility when Dreamcast only is considered, though recent Demul developments including SH-4/WinCE support have probably tipped the scale towards the latter. On that note, Demul probably warrants a second look. The hesitation is because it's closed-source, as quite a few people have pointed out, and no hope of a Linux port unless their position changes. A bit odd for an emulator to be closed-source especially these days, but it's obviously their call.
|
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: Vas Crabb]
#286410 - 05/15/12 02:58 AM
|
|
|
Quote:
Posted by Vas Crabb:
MESS does PCE and PCE-CD pretty damn well these days - are you sure the other emulators are better?
Yeah I'm positive. If you don't think Bsnes, Nestopia/FCEUX, and Kega Fusion are better than MESS than you are wrong. They are better in nearly every category. They are more accurate, more compatible, more features, more options, more abilities, etc. That's not an opinion, it's a fact. Most of us know this already... but some just won't say/admit it. Nobody with knowledge on the matter, can say that MESS is better at emulating the SNES, NES, and Genesis. But that does not mean MESS is bad. MESS is good. Like I said, MESS is a great project with an awesome goal.
Quote:
Posted by R. Belmont
And the point I want to make is that for the popular consoles (NES/SNES/Genesis/GB/GBA) "much better" greatly overstates the user-visible difference when playing a large majority of games. We want people to try MESS, merge or not - contrary to what you may have heard, a lot of the drivers run really well in the common cases. It's not like it was in 2006 or even 2008.
Ok, instead of saying "much better", I'll say "clearly better" or just "better". But now we are just mixing words. I was hesitant to even comment on this subject because I know this is MESS' sisters forum/project with MESS devs & supporters and therefore a sensitive subject. But I did make it a point to say how just because they are better, doesn't mean MESS is bad. As I've said, MESS is a great project with an amazing goal. And I'm sure MESS has greatly improved since a couple years ago. And I totally understand that you want people to try/use MESS. Using MESS helps the project improve. I think what you and other MESS devs are doing is great. And I wouldn't be suprised if in a few years MESS winds up being better than some of them.
|
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: OldSchoolGamer]
#286416 - 05/15/12 03:08 AM
|
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
MESS does PCE and PCE-CD pretty damn well these days - are you sure the other emulators are better?
Yeah I'm positive. If you don't think Bsnes, Nestopia/FCEUX, and Kega Fusion are better than MESS than you are wrong. They are better in nearly every category. They are more accurate, more compatible, more features, more options, more abilities, etc. That's not an opinion, it's a fact. Most of us know this already... but some just won't say/admit it. Nobody with knowledge of the matter, can say that MESS is better at emulating the SNES, NES, and Genesis. But that does not mean MESS is bad. MESS isgood. Like I said, MESS is a great project with an awesome goal.
Nice strawman you fuckwit – he specifically referred to PCE and PCE-CD. That whole paragraph attacks something he didn't say. What evidence to you have that the other emulators do a better job of emulating the NEC PC Engine (Turbografx) family?
|
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: Matty_]
#286417 - 05/15/12 03:18 AM
|
|
|
Quote:
Nice strawman you fuckwit – he specifically referred to PCE and PCE-CD. That whole paragraph attacks something he didn't say. What evidence to you have that the other emulators do a better job of emulating the NEC PC Engine (Turbografx) family?
Here we go with the insults and butt kissing, you coward. He said:
Quote:
MESS does PCE and PCE-CD pretty damn well these days - are you sure the other emulators are better?
How I took it was, "the other emulators" as in the other emulators I mentioned and have been talking about the whole time. But if he meant it the way you understood it, then Ootake/Magic Engine is still overall better. Name two things that MESS is better at than Ootake/Magic Engine? And if you can name something, Ootake/Magic Engine can name something else, plus more. One cannot say that MESS is better than Ootake/Magic Engine... but one can say that Ootake/Magic Engine is better than MESS. Whether it's slightly better or significantly better... it's still better.
Once again, let me repeat myself for the tenth time that does not mean MESS is bad. It is good. I'm just saying the other emulators that I mentioned are currently better. But most of us know this already, it's just the cowards and butt kissers won't admit it or say it publicly. And to be clear... I am pro MESS. And I don't mean to offend any MESS dev or supporter because I AM a supporter and I think the MESS project and goal is great.
|
|
|
Mr. Do |
|
MAME Art Editor
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/21/03
|
|
Posts: 4934
|
|
Loc: California
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: OldSchoolGamer]
#286423 - 05/15/12 04:09 AM
|
|
|
> Nice strawman you fuckwit – he specifically referred to PCE and PCE-CD. That whole > paragraph attacks something he didn't say. What evidence to you have that the other > emulators do a better job of emulating the NEC PC Engine (Turbografx) family? > Here we go with the insults and butt kissing, you coward. He said: > > MESS does PCE and PCE-CD pretty damn well these days - are you sure the other > emulators are better? > How I took it was, "the other emulators" as in the other emulators I mentioned and > have been talking about the whole time. But if he meant it the way you understood it, > then Ootake/Magic Engine is still overall better. Name two things that MESS is better > at than Ootake/Magic Engine? And if you can name something, Ootake/Magic Engine can > name something else, plus more. One cannot say that MESS is better than Ootake/Magic > Engine... but one can say that Ootake/Magic Engine is better than MESS. Whether it's > slightly better or significantly better... it's still better. > > Once again, let me repeat myself for the tenth time that does not mean MESS is bad. > It is good. I'm just saying the other emulators that I mentioned are currently > better. But most of us know this already, it's just the cowards and butt kissers > won't admit it or say it publicly. And to be clear... I am pro MESS. And I don't mean > to offend any MESS dev or supporter because I AM a supporter and I think the MESS > project and goal is great.
You've yet to define better... all you've done is say "x is better than y."
Does better = more features? Or does better = more accurate emulation? When it comes to consoles, there are two very defined groups. I'm guessing you lean more towards the first group.
Everyone here already agrees bsnes is the best emulator of any console emulator; no question there. But a lot of the code in MESS was also thanks to byuu.
Please explain how Kega does Genesis and SMS better than MESS. Not 32x or SegaCD, we know Kega does those better. Just Genesis and SMS.
Please explain how Ootake/Magic Engine does PC Engine better than MESS. Note that I paid for a Magic Engine key over ten years ago.
Please explain how VBA does GB/GBC better than MESS. Not GBA, just GB and GBC.
Please explain how Stella is better than MESS.
Be advised that these are all the emulators for each category that I also link to from my website; that's how highly I regard these (as you say you regard MESS). I'm simply asking you to explain how they are better, other than saying "they just are."
Note that I am simply interested in how accurate the emulation is. I despise fake graphic filters other than HLSL, and I don't record videos. I just like playing the games with my favorite controller.
|
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: OldSchoolGamer]
#286426 - 05/15/12 04:26 AM
|
|
|
MESS makes console games look SOOOOOOOO much better because of HLSL support. With the right tweaks and scanline settings, you'd swear my projection screen was a 110" CRT TV! Look absolutely phenomenal!
|
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: Mr. Do]
#286430 - 05/15/12 04:42 AM
|
|
|
Quote:
You've yet to define better... all you've done is say "x is better than y."
Does better = more features? Or does better = more accurate emulation? When it comes to consoles, there are two very defined groups. I'm guessing you lean more towards the first group.
Everyone here already agrees bsnes is the best emulator of any console emulator; no question there. But a lot of the code in MESS was also thanks to byuu.
Please explain how Kega does Genesis and SMS better than MESS. Not 32x or SegaCD, we know Kega does those better. Just Genesis and SMS.
Please explain how Ootake/Magic Engine does PC Engine better than MESS. Note that I paid for a Magic Engine key over ten years ago.
Please explain how VBA does GB/GBC better than MESS. Not GBA, just GB and GBC.
Please explain how Stella is better than MESS.
Be advised that these are all the emulators for each category that I also link to from my website; that's how highly I regard these (as you say you regard MESS). I'm simply asking you to explain how they are better, other than saying "they just are."
Note that I am simply interested in how accurate the emulation is. I despise fake graphic filters other than HLSL, and I don't record videos. I just like playing the games with my favorite controller.
All the emulators I mentioned are more compatible than MESS. Which means they are able to play/emulate alot more games for their given system than MESS.
Almost all the emulators I mentioned are more accurate.
All the emulators I mentioned have alot more features and options than MESS. I'm not going to name all of them as they are way too many to name (such as video filters, rewind support for Nestopia). But I know your knowledgeable enough in the matter to know what I'm talking about.
All the emulators I mentioned have fewer bugs and glitches in the games that they emulate than MESS.
All the emulators I mentioned are able to play more homebrews and pirates than MESS.
All the emulators I mentioned are better equipped and easier to do TAS video stuff such as recording gamplay videos, etc.
Almost all the emulators are better and easier to hack cheat codes.
----------
The above is more than enough to make them the prefered emulator of choice for their given system. That's why they are widely regarded as the best emulator at their given game system and rightfully so.
(NES, Nintendulator and Nestopia are more cycle accurate than MESS. And I know Bsnes is more accurate than MESS. The following I'm not positive... but I'm pretty sure Kega Fusion is more accurate too. MESS might be barely slightly more accurate for just a few classic games than the other emulators but the vast majority of games the other emulators are more accurate.)
|
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: OldSchoolGamer]
#286432 - 05/15/12 04:54 AM
|
|
|
> All the emulators I mentioned have alot more features and options than MESS. I'm not > going to name all of them as they are way too many to name. But I know your > knowledgeable enough in the matter to know what I'm talking about.
except you were exactly asked to do so, because otherwise we are talking about nothing but wait, have you actually tried MESS and these other emus, or do you keep going blah-blah-ing based on what you read on internet? because
> [...] They are widely regarded [...] > [...] I've also read [...] > [...] I think I read [...]
do not seem to play in your favour...
|
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: etabeta]
#286433 - 05/15/12 05:04 AM
|
|
|
Quote:
except you were exactly asked to do so, because otherwise we are talking about nothing but wait, have you actually tried MESS and these other emus, or do you keep going blah-blah-ing based on what you read on internet? because
> [...] They are widely regarded [...] > [...] I've also read [...] > [...] I think I read [...]
do not seem to play in your favour...
READ THIS. THIS IS PLENTY OF REASONS!: All the emulators I mentioned are more compatible than MESS. Which means they are able to play/emulate alot more games for their given system than MESS.
Almost all the emulators I mentioned are more accurate.
All the emulators I mentioned have alot more features, options, and eye candy than MESS. I'm not going to name all of them (such as video filters, rewind support for Nestopia) as they are way too many to name. But I know your knowledgeable enough in the matter to know what I'm talking about.
All the emulators I mentioned have fewer bugs and glitches in the games that they emulate than MESS.
All the emulators I mentioned are able to play more homebrews and pirates than MESS.
All the emulators I mentioned are better equipped and easier to do TAS video stuff such as recording gamplay videos, etc.
Almost all the emulators I mentioned are better and easier to hack cheat codes
|
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: OldSchoolGamer]
#286434 - 05/15/12 05:12 AM
|
|
|
You guys are hiliarious. If other people from other gaming/emulator forums read this thread, they are going to be laughing their butts off that some of you are actually trying to say MESS is better than those emulators for those systems. It's really comical and pathetic at the same time. The case is OVERWHELMINGLY in favor of the emulators I suggested... hands down. Some of you should grow a back bone and get off your knees. It's okay to face the facts and not always agree with the powers that be. You don't always have to kiss their butts. You'll start having more self respect and people will actually respect you more instead of being their puppet.
|
|
|
Mr. Do |
|
MAME Art Editor
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/21/03
|
|
Posts: 4934
|
|
Loc: California
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: OldSchoolGamer]
#286435 - 05/15/12 05:22 AM
|
|
|
> You guys are hiliarious. If other people from other forums read this thread, they are > going to be laughing their butts off that some of you are actually trying to say MESS > is better than those emulators for those systems. It's really comical and pathetic at > the same time. The case is OVERWHELMINGLY in favor of the emulators I suggested... > hands down.
Nope... I haven't made one statement yet saying that MESS is better.
I'm asking YOU to explain how the other emulators are better. I genuinely want to know.
So far, all you've said is "they're better because they're better. I see no data, facts, playtesting, etc. to backup your point.
For example, compatibility. How many games for each console are there that MESS can't play, that the others can?
Or accuracy. Show me some side-by-side testing between Magic Engine, MESS, and a real PC Engine that proves Magic Engine is better; that David Michel's work is better than Charles MacDonald's work.
List me some glitches games have in MESS that the other emulators don't have.
|
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: Mr. Do]
#286437 - 05/15/12 05:38 AM
|
|
|
Quote:
Nope... I haven't made one statement yet saying that MESS is better.
Exactly, you know they are better and so does everyone else. You just don't have the courage to admit it. Otherwise you would have already. I want to hear the words come out of your mouth...
Answer this: Is Nestopia/FCEUX, Bsnes, Kega Fusion better than MESS for their respected systems? YES or NO?
I don't want to hear any other words but "YES" or "NO". I don't want to hear commentary, arguement, or opinion. If I hear anything other than "YES" or "NO", you'll be in contempt of court for side stepping the issue and not wanting to give a straight answer. I don't even want to hear you clear your throat to speak. Now, how do you plead?... YES or NO?
(I'm going to laugh my butt off if you answer NO.)
They are:
More Compatible
More Accurate
More Features
Less Bugs & Glitches
Better/Easier doing TAS video stuff
Better/Easier hacking cheat codes.
Quote:
I'm asking YOU to explain how the other emulators are better. I genuinely want to know.
Read my above post. That's way more than enough reasons.
Quote:
So far, all you've said is "they're better because they're better. I see no data, facts, playtesting, etc. to backup your point.
For example, compatibility. How many games for each console are there that MESS can't play, that the others can?
Or accuracy. Show me some side-by-side testing between Magic Engine, MESS, and a real PC Engine that proves Magic Engine is better; that David Michel's work is better than Charles MacDonald's work.
List me some glitches games have in MESS that the other emulators don't have.
Oh will you stop playing with yourself already. I'm not going to take the time to show you side by side testing, list glitches, show data numbers, etc. Do that yourself if you want to know. Like all you followers say to me... "give a man a fish, blah blah".
Or better yet, I'll turn the question around and ask you to please tell me what MESS is better at than those systems? I'd really like to know (honestly). And before you name something (if you are even able to), compare it to what I listed and you'll see how minor it is.
This is a joke. I lost all respect of the remaining respect I had for any of you who are trying to argue that Nestopia/FCEUX, Bsnes, and Kega Fusion is not HANDS DOWN better than MESS at their respected system. They are better end of discussion. I'm not wasting anymore time on this mind boggling discussion.
And still undefeated and champion of the world... OSG!
|
|
|
Mr. Do |
|
MAME Art Editor
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/21/03
|
|
Posts: 4934
|
|
Loc: California
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: OldSchoolGamer]
#286438 - 05/15/12 06:15 AM
|
|
|
> Nope... I haven't made one statement yet saying that MESS is better. > Exactly, you know they are better and so does everyone else. You just don't have the > courage to admit it. Otherwise you would have already. I want to hear the words come > out of your mouth... > > Answer this: Is Nestopia/FCEUX, Bsnes, Kega Fusion better than MESS for their > respected systems? > YES or NO? > > I don't want to hear any other words but "YES" or "NO". I don't want to hear > commentary, arguement, or opinion. If I hear anything other than "YES" or "NO", > you'll be in contempt of court for side stepping the issue and not wanting to give a > straight answer. I don't even want to hear you clear your throat to speak. Now, how > do you plead?... YES or NO?
I'm not the one side stepping. You said "these are the emulators better than MESS." I asked why, and you said "because they are better."
I haven't spent hours testing the various console emulators lately; I haven't had time. But since you obviously know which ones are better, I assume that you have. I just want to know why the other ones are better.
> I'm not going to take the time to > show you side by side testing, list glitches, show data numbers, etc. Do that > yourself if you want to know. Like all you followers say to me... "give a man a fish, > blah blah"
Before I posted, I searched on Google (notice how late I came into the thread). I searched on various terms to find compatibility charts between the various emulators; bug reports, etc. Something, anything, to say why one was better than the other. I couldn't find any.
So again, since you obviously know why, I'm asking you. Why are they better?
> This is a joke. I lost all respect of the remaining respect I had for any of you who > are trying to argue that Nestopia/FCEUX, Bsnes, and Kega Fusion is not HANDS DOWN > better than MESS at their respected system. They are better end of discussion. I'm > not wasting anymore time on this mind boggling discussion.
Lost respect how? Again, not once have I argued that one is better than the other. I'm just looking for something, anything, to sway my opinion one way or the other, other than "they're better because I said so." Because so far, your only answer has been that; they are better because you said so.
> And still undefeated and champion of the world... OSG!
You're undefeated "because you said so?" What are you trying to win here? I'm just asking simple questions, looking for simple, yet detailed, answers.
|
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: Mr. Do]
#286439 - 05/15/12 06:34 AM
|
|
|
haha, you still can't answer a YES or NO question.
ANSWER THIS QUESTION WITH JUST A YES OR NO.
Is Nestopia/FCEUX, Bsnes, Kega Fusion better than MESS for their respected systems?
YES or NO?
If you are going to continue to avoid that question than I'll rephrase the question:
If you rubbed a bottle and a genie came out and said that he will grant you a million dollars if you can answer that question correctly, what would your answer be? YES or NO. Now you have to say either YES or NO. You would be a fool to say I don't know because he would disappear and you would get no money. So you might as well take a shot. So what would your answer be... YES or NO?
ANSWER THE ABOVE QUESTION!!!... yeah that's right, I want to hear you say the answer. Think of it like therapy... I'm helping you face the facts and reality. I'm helping you grow and stand up for yourself. You can do it! I'm here for you. You're in a safe place. Don't worry, your buddies won't disown you.
Quote:
I'm not the one side stepping. You said "these are the emulators better than MESS." I asked why, and you said "because they are better."
Wrong. I didn't just say "because they are better." I gave overwhelming testimony. Let me repost all the overwhelming reasons:
All the emulators I mentioned are more compatible than MESS. Which means they are able to play/emulate alot more games for their given system than MESS.
Almost all the emulators I mentioned are more accurate.
All the emulators I mentioned have alot more features, options, and eye candy than MESS. I'm not going to name all of them (such as video filters, rewind support for Nestopia) as they are way too many to name. But I know your knowledgeable enough in the matter to know what I'm talking about.
All the emulators I mentioned have fewer bugs and glitches in the games that they emulate than MESS.
All the emulators I mentioned are able to play more homebrews and pirates than MESS.
All the emulators I mentioned are better equipped and easier to do TAS video stuff such as recording gamplay videos, etc.
Almost all the emulators I mentioned are better and easier to hack cheat codes
--------------
I'll ask you this question again that you failed to answer. I'll turn the question around and ask you to please tell me what MESS is better at than those systems? I'd really like to know (honestly). And before you name something (if you are even able to), compare it to what I listed and you'll see how minor it is.
|
|
|
Mr. Do |
|
MAME Art Editor
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/21/03
|
|
Posts: 4934
|
|
Loc: California
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: OldSchoolGamer]
#286440 - 05/15/12 06:51 AM
|
|
|
> Wrong. I didn't just say "because they are better." I gave overwhelming testimony. > Let me repost all the overwhelming reasons:
You've quoted the exact same paragraph three times. I still don't understand. Let me see if it makes more sense if I break it down...
> All the emulators I mentioned are more compatible than MESS. Which means they are > able to play/emulate alot more games for their given system than MESS.
So far, all you've said is "they're more compatible." So for example, what games can the others play that MESS can't?
> Almost all the emulators I mentioned are more accurate.
In what way are they more accurate? At least two of the emulators you mentioned are closed-source, so the only way to measure accuracy would be side-by-side tests compared to a real system.
> All the emulators I mentioned have alot more features, options, and eye candy than > MESS. I'm not going to name all of them (such as video filters, rewind support for > Nestopia) as they are way too many to name. But I know your knowledgeable enough in > the matter to know what I'm talking about.
I'm not knowledgeable enough; that's why I asked in the first place. But like I said earlier, I'm not interested in the eye candy anyway, so we can just skip this one.
> All the emulators I mentioned have fewer bugs and glitches in the games that they > emulate than MESS.
Bug reports? Real world examples? Where is it documented that these emulators have fewer bugs and glitches. What games are affected. Have these glitches proven to not exist in real hardware?
> All the emulators I mentioned are able to play more homebrews and pirates than MESS.
We can skip this one, too.
> All the emulators I mentioned are better equipped and easier to do TAS video stuff > such as recording gamplay videos, etc.
Skip again.
> Almost all the emulators I mentioned are better and easier to hack cheat codes
Don't need to cheat, so skip again.
> I'll ask you this question again that you failed to answer. I'll turn the question > around and ask you to please tell me what MESS is better at than those systems? I'd > really like to know (honestly). And before you name something (if you are even able > to), compare it to what I listed and you'll see how minor it is.
And again, not once have I yet said that MESS is better than the other emulators. I am holding judgement until I have all of the facts. I'm failing to answer it, because I don't have the answer; that's why I'm asking the questions.
All I'm asking is: how are they more compatible, how are they more accurate, and how fewer bugs do they have.
That's been my original question from the beginning. Seriously, I don't understand why you're getting upset over a simple question. If you don't know, then just say you don't know, and I'll look elsewhere later when time permits.
I just figured that since you posted here that you knew all the answers, that you would be willing to share them.
|
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: Mr. Do]
#286441 - 05/15/12 07:57 AM
|
|
|
Quote:
Seriously, I don't understand why you're getting upset over a simple question
I'm not getting upset. I'm never the first one in a conversation to curse or insult somebody. I always am respectful to others until they show disrespect to me. So you have to realize that after listening to so many followers, cowards, butt kissers, rude, know-it-all members of this forum that jump down the throat of anyone (besides their master- aka staff or some senior members) that asks a question or have a different opinion, it just gets pathetic after awhile. That some people can be that much of a coward and follower instead of being a leader. I mean c'mon, I'm dealing with people who think Threaded Mode is better than Flat Mode. (No, please let's not get into that discussion again). It just sucks that every thread turns into an argument. That some people have such low and negative points of view towards others. But there are some people on this forum who are good people.
Back on topic...The fact that there is a bunch of people on this forum that know damn well that Bsnes, Nestopia/FCEUX, and Kega Fusion is hands down better than MESS but they refuse to speak up is just so sad. The whole emulation community knows it to be true. It's not even a debate.
Quote:
So far, all you've said is "they're more compatible." So for example, what games can the others play that MESS can't?
You'll have to ask a MESS dev. for a MESS list of supported NES mappers and unsupported SNES & Genesis games. You can google Nestopia's supported mappers. Nestopia supports the most mappers out of any NES emulator. It can play basically every released game along with the most homebrews/pirates.
Bsnes can play every single SNES game. Therefore it is obviously more compatible than MESS.
As you know and admitted already, Kega Fusion has better 32X and Sega CD than MESS. It also has 100% or almost 100% compatibility for Genesis/MegaDrive, Sega Master System, and Sega Game Gear.
So, all three emulators have 100% compatibility or nearly 100% compatibility. MESS is far from that number.
Quote:
In what way are they more accurate? At least two of the emulators you mentioned are closed-source, so the only way to measure accuracy would be side-by-side tests compared to a real system.
I would suggest you visit nesdev and they will tell you that Nintendulator is the most accurate emulator followed by Nestopia or Mednafen. Both are a close second. I'm not going to take the time to show you a side by side comparison. If you wish, you can do that yourself. And Bsnes is obviously the most accurate SNES emulator.
Quote:
I'm not knowledgeable enough; that's why I asked in the first place. But like I said earlier, I'm not interested in the eye candy anyway, so we can just skip this one.
Those emulators take the cake in this category as well. They have overwhelmingly more features, options, eye candy, video filters, etc.
Quote:
Bug reports? Real world examples? Where is it documented that these emulators have fewer bugs and glitches. What games are affected. Have these glitches proven to not exist in real hardware?
You will have to play all various games in MESS to see this. Particulary obscure games (considering they even run in MESS). Of course all/most of the classic games are going to work fine in MESS. It's the other games, obscure games, unpopular games, and hardware advanced games (special games) that you might encounter bugs and glitches in MESS. I guess you can find some of those bugs and glitches in the MESS bug report documentation.
Quote:
All the emulators I mentioned are better equipped and easier to do TAS video stuff such as recording gamplay videos, etc.
Skip again.
You say skip, but to alot of others it's very important.
Quote:
Almost all the emulators I mentioned are better and easier to hack cheat codes
Don't need to cheat, so skip again.
You say skip, but this also is a huge plus and very important to people.
--------
All you have to do is experience it yourself. It's quite obvious. And you can also search the internet and read what emulator authors say, devs, and the whole emulation community. I've spent enough time on this discussion. I wasted half the night talking about something so obvious that it wasn't even worth talking about.
Conclusion: "MESS is good but for the spoken systems, the other emulators mentioned are better. But please use MESS sometimes too because it helps with it's progress." That's all that had to be said to avoid this long, pointless discussion.
|
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: OldSchoolGamer]
#286442 - 05/15/12 08:08 AM
|
|
|
> All the emulators I mentioned are more compatible than MESS. Which means they are > able to play/emulate alot more games for their given system than MESS. > > Almost all the emulators I mentioned are more accurate.
In what way are Magic Engine and Ootake more accurate than MESS for PCE and PCE-CD emulation? MESS can run 99% of commercial releases with no per-game hacks, and it has low-level emulation of CD comms. Neither of the PCE emulators you mention are better.
> All the emulators I mentioned have alot more features, options, and eye candy than > MESS. I'm not going to name all of them (such as video filters, rewind support for > Nestopia) as they are way too many to name. But I know your knowledgeable enough in > the matter to know what I'm talking about.
MESS has HLSL filters on Windows and pluggable GLSL filters on SDL. If there is better eye candy in any other emulator, point it out.
> Almost all the emulators I mentioned are better and easier to hack cheat codes
Bullshit. MESS has full MAME debugger, which the vast majority of the emulators you mention have no competition for. This is a far superior system for hacking cheats into gameplay. Name an emulator that does better.
|
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: Vas Crabb]
#286443 - 05/15/12 08:19 AM
|
|
|
I'm done commenting in this thread as I've wasted enough time. But I'll just say this:
Quote:
Bullshit. MESS has full MAME debugger, which the vast majority of the emulators you mention have no competition for. This is a far superior system for hacking cheats into gameplay. Name an emulator that does better
ahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaahahahhah..... FCEUX slaps the shit out of ANY EMULATOR EVER MADE for hacking cheat codes. Any true video game hacker will tell you that. haha you lose everytime with me "mate". Don't even bother opening your mouth next time (except for the "you know what" that you're always on your knees for). If I've told you once, I've told you a million times... you're beneath me, figuratively and literally.
|
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: OldSchoolGamer]
#286444 - 05/15/12 08:28 AM
|
|
|
> ahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaahahahhah..... FCEUX slaps the > shit out of ANY EMULATOR EVER MADE for hacking cheat codes. Any true hacker will tell > you that. haha you lose everytime with me "mate". Don't even bother opening your > mouth next time (except for the "you know what" that you're always on your knees > for). If I've told you once, I've told you a million times... you're beneath me, > figuratively and literally.
Yeah, ignore the rest of my points and provide NO FUCKING EXAMPLES of how it's better on the one thing you decide to latch onto. What can you do with FCEUX that you can't do with MAME/MESS debugger? How is it easier or more flexible?
Also, since we're now boasting, how many homes do you have? Not investment properties that you rent out for income - how many homes do you have? What's your income? How many people report to you at work? What's the strength of grip of your right hand? How many chess-boxing matches have you won? I bet I beat you on all counts.
|
|
|
Mr. Do |
|
MAME Art Editor
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/21/03
|
|
Posts: 4934
|
|
Loc: California
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: OldSchoolGamer]
#286445 - 05/15/12 08:34 AM
|
|
|
So what your saying is, rather than take up your time, I should just go and do the research myself. And if I can't find the answer easily, rather than spending my time on the back and forth here, and still not receive the answer that I wanted, I could've just used that time wisely, and done the research myself.
Totally makes sense now. When I'm done, I'll let you know which one(s) I like better.
Thanks!!
> Seriously, I don't understand why you're getting upset over a simple question > I'm not getting upset. I'm never the first one in a conversation to curse or insult > somebody. I always am respectful to others until they show disrespect to me. So you > have to realize that after listening to so many followers, cowards, butt kissers, > rude, know-it-all members of this forum that jump down the throat of anyone (besides > their master- aka staff or some senior members) that asks a question or have a > different opinion, it just gets pathetic after awhile. That some people can be that > much of a coward and follower instead of being a leader. I mean c'mon, I'm dealing > with people who think Threaded Mode is better than Flat Mode. (No, please let's not > get into that discussion again). It just sucks that every thread turns into an > argument. That some people have such low and negative points of view towards others. > But there are some people on this forum who are good people. > > Back on topic...The fact that there is a bunch of people on this forum that know damn > well that Bsnes, Nestopia/FCEUX, and Kega Fusion is hands down better than MESS but > they refuse to speak up is just so sad. The whole emulation community knows it to be > true. It's not even a debate. > > So far, all you've said is "they're more compatible." So for example, what games can > the others play that MESS can't? > You'll have to ask a MESS dev. for a MESS list of supported NES mappers and > unsupported SNES & Genesis games. You can google Nestopia's supported mappers. > Nestopia supports the most mappers out of any NES emulator. It can play basically > every released game along with the most homebrews/pirates. > > Bsnes can play every single SNES game. Therefore it is obviously more compatible than > MESS. > > As you know and admitted already, Kega Fusion has better 32X and Sega CD than MESS. > It also has 100% or almost 100% compatibility for Genesis/MegaDrive, Sega Master > System, and Sega Game Gear. > > So, all three emulators have 100% compatibility or nearly 100% compatibility. MESS is > far from that number. > > In what way are they more accurate? At least two of the emulators you mentioned are > closed-source, so the only way to measure accuracy would be side-by-side tests > compared to a real system. > I would suggest you visit nesdev and they will tell you that Nintendulator is the > most accurate emulator followed by Nestopia or Mednafen. Both are a close second. I'm > not going to take the time to show you a side by side comparison. If you wish, you > can do that yourself. > > I'm not knowledgeable enough; that's why I asked in the first place. But like I said > earlier, I'm not interested in the eye candy anyway, so we can just skip this one. > Those emulators take the cake in this category as well. They have overwhelmingly more > features, options, eye candy, video filters, etc. > > Bug reports? Real world examples? Where is it documented that these emulators have > fewer bugs and glitches. What games are affected. Have these glitches proven to not > exist in real hardware? > You will have to play all various games in MESS to see this. Particulary obscure > games (considering they even run in MESS). Of course all/most of the classic games > are going to work fine in MESS. It's the other games, obscure games, unpopular games, > and hardware advanced games (special games) that you might encounter bugs and > glitches in MESS. I guess you can find some of those bugs and glitches in the MESS > bug report documentation. > > > All the emulators I mentioned are better equipped and easier to do TAS video stuff > such as recording gamplay videos, etc. > > Skip again. > You say skip, but to alot of others it's very important. > > Almost all the emulators I mentioned are better and easier to hack cheat codes > > Don't need to cheat, so skip again. > You say skip, but this also is a huge plus and very important to people. > > -------- > > All you have to do is experience it yourself. It's quite obvious. And you can also > search the internet and read what emulator authors say, devs, and the whole emulation > community. I've spent enough time on this discussion. I wasted half the night talking > about something so obvious that it wasn't even worth talking about. > > Conclusion: "MESS is good but for the spoken systems, the other emulators mentioned > are better. But please use MESS sometimes too because it helps with it's progress." > That's all that had to be said to avoid this long, pointless discussion.
|
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: Mr. Do]
#286447 - 05/15/12 09:44 AM
|
|
|
Looks like I'm going to be converting CDs to CHDs for testing sometime real soon. I do have a real Japanese TurboDuo here, but side-by-side testing is a bit difficult with my current setup.
|
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: OldSchoolGamer]
#286449 - 05/15/12 10:08 AM
|
|
|
> You guys are hiliarious. If other people from other gaming/emulator forums read this > thread, they are going to be laughing their butts off that some of you are actually > trying to say MESS is better than those emulators for those systems. It's really > comical and pathetic at the same time.
you really don't get it, huh? nobody has stated that MESS is the best emu for NES or SNES or GBA. for those systems, standalone emus offer a better experience and not a single dev denies that it's easy to find specific games for those systems which do not work in MESS.
OTOH, we have pointed your attention to other systems for which standalone emus are at the same levels of MESS, if not below (let me mention once more, Lynx, A2600, Intellivision, Macintosh and Vectrex). You have completely fail to prove us wrong for these systems, and you keep mentioning fabulous options that other have and MESS don't, without specifying any...
Do you want cheats? Open the MAME/MESS debugger Do you want online? Check MAMEHub Do you want to export movies? use -aviwrite Do you want fancy filters? check HLSL or GLSL, depending on your OS
MESS offers all the option MAME has, which means most of the features one searches in emulators (with the possible exception of stable save states and rewind options) and, as a bonus, you can use MESS also on Unix or MacOSX machines
These are facts. It would be nice if you could stick to facts rather than opinions too, in your replies...
|
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: OldSchoolGamer]
#286461 - 05/15/12 11:25 AM
|
|
|
Your attitude disgusts me.
|
|
|
| mesk |
|
@ the arcade
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 03/03/11
|
|
Posts: 484
|
|
Loc: Rhode Island
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: OldSchoolGamer]
#286463 - 05/15/12 11:52 AM
|
|
|
I know a reason why many end users prefer other emulators over MESS,and mind you these are just end uses.MESS has no cheat support.Or should I say no easy way to cheat in games like other emus or even MAME.No end user wants to open a debugger and make their own cheats,before playing a game.they want to open game,open cheats,select cheats and play.
Ive setup quite a few gaming setups for people I know and they all want to cheat in old games.Mostly because they just dont have the time to play them fairly,(or more likely the patience\skill) and they all want to see those later levels they could never get to as a kid.
|
|
|
| R. Belmont |
|
Cuckoo for IGAvania
|
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/21/03
|
|
Posts: 9721
|
|
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: mesk]
#286478 - 05/15/12 12:55 PM
|
|
|
> I know a reason why many end users prefer other emulators over MESS,and mind you > these are just end uses.MESS has no cheat support.Or should I say no easy way to > cheat in games like other emus or even MAME.No end user wants to open a debugger and > make their own cheats,before playing a game.they want to open game,open cheats,select > cheats and play.
Pugsy makes MESS cheat files just like he does MAME ones, and they work the same way.
|
|
|
| mesk |
|
@ the arcade
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 03/03/11
|
|
Posts: 484
|
|
Loc: Rhode Island
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: R. Belmont]
#286479 - 05/15/12 12:58 PM
|
|
|
Where? his site? last time I checked all there was were colecovision,has it been that long?
EDIT: nice there are Genesis and TG-16 now.Now all we need are NES & SNES
|
|
|
| NLS |
|
Computing Nostalgia Adict
|
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 10/28/03
|
|
Posts: 76
|
|
Loc: GREECE
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: R. Belmont]
#286510 - 05/15/12 05:41 PM
|
|
|
Pity MESS is lost in the shadow of MAME (shadow which in turn isn't cast the way it did a few years ago) and has to fight these fights like Robin without Batman. We all know a way to actually bring MESS work to light. Assimilation.
Anyway we had another thread on that.
MESS has progressed but some (most?) of the systems emulated haven't gone far really.
|
|
|
| B2K24 |
|
MAME @ 15 kHz Sony Trinitron CRT user
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 10/25/10
|
|
Posts: 2663
|
|
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: NLS]
#286527 - 05/15/12 08:43 PM
|
|
|
> MESS has progressed but some (most?) of the systems emulated haven't gone far really.
Exactly how many Drivers have you submitted?
|
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: Vas Crabb]
#286535 - 05/15/12 10:09 PM
|
|
|
Quote:
Also, since we're now boasting, how many homes do you have? Not investment properties that you rent out for income - how many homes do you have? What's your income? How many people report to you at work? What's the strength of grip of your right hand? How many chess-boxing matches have you won? I bet I beat you on all counts.
I know I said I wasn't going to comment further, but for your benefit I will just say this...
It's a shame that you think money, houses, etc. is what determines success and happiness. You appear to have your priorities mixed up. What I would have hoped to see you say is:
"How happy are you? Do you have a family that loves you unconditionally and that you love back? Do you have a higher power that you believe loves you uncoditionally and the other way around?" I really hope you do on all accounts.
Because those are the real factors that success and happiness should be judged/based on. Those are the factors that really matter. I hope you seriously read this carefully and do some self reflecting. Your family might be thankful for it and so might you.
|
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: OldSchoolGamer]
#286536 - 05/15/12 11:07 PM
|
|
|
Come on, guys, can we NOT have one of my actual discussion threads end up getting closed this week?
|
|
|
|
Re: Probably a good time to see how far MESS has progressed
[Re: OldSchoolGamer]
#286537 - 05/15/12 11:59 PM
|
|
|
Do you have a higher power that you believe loves you uncoditionally and > the other way around?" I really hope you do on all accounts. >
You had to bring religion into it..
time to close this thread now.
|
|
|
|
MESS = flamebait?
[Re: Firehawke]
#286538 - 05/16/12 12:18 AM
|
|
|
|
|