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Why is Super Moon Cresta part of the main game romset?
#368392 - 07/30/17 11:08 AM
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I get why some games have clones that are natively part of the main romset (like Nato Defense), but I just noticed that Super Moon Cresta, a bootleg, is accessible right from the base romset.
Surely a bootleg can't just use the exact same game data, right?
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Re: Why is Super Moon Cresta part of the main game romset?
[Re: Reynard]
#368393 - 07/30/17 11:18 AM
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> I get why some games have clones that are natively part of the main romset (like Nato
> Defense), but I just noticed that Super Moon Cresta, a bootleg, is accessible right
> from the base romset.
>
> Surely a bootleg can't use just the exact same game data, right?
Let's see:
Code:
% ./mame64 -listroms mooncrst smooncrs
ROMs required for driver "mooncrst".
Name Size Checksum
mc1 2048 CRC(7d954a7a) SHA1(a93ee403cfd7887538ad12d33f6dd6c71bea2a32)
mc2 2048 CRC(44bb7cfa) SHA1(349c2e23a9fce73f95bb8168d369082fa129fe3d)
mc3 2048 CRC(9c412104) SHA1(1b40054ebb1ace965a8522119bb23f09797bc5f6)
mc4 2048 CRC(7e9b1ab5) SHA1(435f603c0c3e788a509dd144a7916a34e791ae44)
mc5.7r 2048 CRC(16c759af) SHA1(3b48050411f65f9d3fb41ff22901e22d82bf1cf6)
mc6.8d 2048 CRC(69bcafdb) SHA1(939c8c6ed1cd4660a3d99b8f17ed99cbd7e1352a)
mc7.8e 2048 CRC(b50dbc46) SHA1(4fa084fd1ba5f78e7703e684c57af15ca7a844e4)
mc8 2048 CRC(18ca312b) SHA1(39219059003b949e38305553fea2d33071062c64)
mcs_b 2048 CRC(fb0f1f81) SHA1(38a6679a8b69bc1870a0e67e692131c42f9535c8)
mcs_d 2048 CRC(13932a15) SHA1(b8885c555c6ad7021be55c6925a0a0872c1b6abd)
mcs_a 2048 CRC(631ebb5a) SHA1(5bc9493afa76c55858b8c8849524cbc77dc838fc)
mcs_c 2048 CRC(24cfd145) SHA1(08c6599db170dd6ee364c44f70a0f5c0f881b6ef)
mmi6331.6l 32 CRC(6a0c7d87) SHA1(140335d85c67c75b65689d4e76d29863c209cf32)
ROMs required for driver "smooncrs".
Name Size Checksum
927 2048 CRC(55c5b994) SHA1(3451b121fa22361b2684385cf5d4455fa6963215)
928a 2048 CRC(77ae26d3) SHA1(cbc16a024b73bedff76a6c47336d6ef098e92c53)
929 2048 CRC(716eaa10) SHA1(780fc785e6651f19dc1a0ccf48cf9485d6562a71)
930 2048 CRC(cea864f2) SHA1(aaaf9f8dd126dfb4a4f52f39863fee02a56a6485)
931 2048 CRC(702c5f51) SHA1(5ba8d87c93c4810b8e7c2ad4ee376cd806e83686)
932a 2048 CRC(e6a2039f) SHA1(f0f240dd8ac7cd2d9994cb7341b59d7a0a3eaf26)
933 2048 CRC(73783cee) SHA1(69760e25ba22645572ec16b4f9136ee84ed0c766)
934 2048 CRC(c1a14aa2) SHA1(99f6b01a0acd5e936d6ae61c13599db603b73191)
epr203 2048 CRC(be26b561) SHA1(cc27de6888eaf4ee18c0d37d9bcb528dd282b838)
mcs_d 2048 CRC(13932a15) SHA1(b8885c555c6ad7021be55c6925a0a0872c1b6abd)
epr202 2048 CRC(26c7e800) SHA1(034192e5e2cbac4b66a9828f5ec2311c2c368781)
mcs_c 2048 CRC(24cfd145) SHA1(08c6599db170dd6ee364c44f70a0f5c0f881b6ef)
mmi6331.6l 32 CRC(6a0c7d87) SHA1(140335d85c67c75b65689d4e76d29863c209cf32)
Nope, it's using plenty of ROMs that are not in the parent set. You must have the files for the original and bootleg in the same archive.
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Re: Why is Super Moon Cresta part of the main game romset?
[Re: Vas Crabb]
#368395 - 07/30/17 12:06 PM
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Whoops, you're right, I grabbed it from an old backup and didn't realise I had a merged set. 
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Re: Why is Super Moon Cresta part of the main game romset?
[Re: Vas Crabb]
#368438 - 07/31/17 05:33 PM
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I'm curious about something: is this game truly a bootleg?
The reason that I ask is that it was released by a licensee of the original (Gremlin/Sega). Wouldn't that just make the game an update of sorts, rather than a bootleg? Midway did something similar with Space Invaders 2 cocktail, where it was an in-house project rather than a release of Taito code.
There are pictures of the cabinet around, and they all look quite official (i.e. not shoved into a generic box). Electronic Games even mentioned it (with cabinet photo) in an issue of the magazine back in the 80s...
... or is the set that MAME supports from an actual bootleg of SMC?
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"One of these days, I'm going to cut you into little pieces!"- Nick Mason, Pink Floyd
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Re: Why is Super Moon Cresta part of the main game romset?
[Re: Brian Deuel]
#368439 - 07/31/17 05:37 PM
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> I'm curious about something: is this game truly a bootleg?
>
> The reason that I ask is that it was released by a licensee of the original
> (Gremlin/Sega). Wouldn't that just make the game an update of sorts, rather than a
> bootleg? Midway did something similar with Space Invaders 2 cocktail, where it was an
> in-house project rather than a release of Taito code.
>
> There are pictures of the cabinet around, and they all look quite official (i.e. not
> shoved into a generic box). Electronic Games even mentioned it (with cabinet photo)
> in an issue of the magazine back in the 80s...
>
> ... or is the set that MAME supports from an actual bootleg of SMC?
well the set in MAME is definitely a bootleg, the 'POR' you see in the corner actually points at an earlier bootlegger before Gremlin got it.
specifically, it's originally part of the Spanish bootleg by Sonic where it says 'Por Sonic' which translates to 'By Sonic' The rest of the string was blanked out.
I suspect Gremlin just bootlegged it from another bootleg to be perfectly honest, a lot of companies had shady beginnings. You'll find people swearing blind it's original because it came from an original PCB or whatever, but it isn't, not even slightly.
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Re: Why is Super Moon Cresta part of the main game romset?
[Re: Haze]
#368441 - 07/31/17 05:42 PM
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Interesting. It'd be curious to see an actual S/G cabinet with the game running, just to see if the POR shows up on the screen. I'm also curious if anyone has dumped and examined the set from a S/G cabinet for differences, which, if it has happened, wouldn't surprise me in the least after all of these years.
Thanks for the clarification.
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"One of these days, I'm going to cut you into little pieces!"- Nick Mason, Pink Floyd
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| gregf |
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Re: Why is Super Moon Cresta part of the main game romset?
[Re: Haze]
#368445 - 07/31/17 06:45 PM
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>> I'm curious about something: is this game truly a bootleg?
>
>> The reason that I ask is that it was released by a licensee of the original
>> (Gremlin/Sega). Wouldn't that just make the game an update of sorts, rather than a
>> bootleg? Midway did something similar with Space Invaders 2 cocktail, where it was an
>> in-house project rather than a release of Taito code.
>well the set in MAME is definitely a bootleg, the 'POR' you see in the corner actually
>points at an earlier bootlegger before Gremlin got it.
>specifically, it's originally part of the Spanish bootleg by Sonic where it says 'Por
>Sonic' which translates to 'By Sonic' The rest of the string was blanked out.
>I suspect Gremlin just bootlegged it from another bootleg to be perfectly honest, a lot
>of companies had shady beginnings. You'll find people swearing blind it's original
>because it came from an original PCB or whatever, but it isn't, not even slightly.
Any chance that whoever sent that Gremlin set in and was supported many years ago, may have come from a modified/poorly repaired pcb that had a mixed set of roms on the pcb?
With Gremlin Industries already established in mid 1970s with their wall games they first marketed, I can't picture the company even after being acquired by Sega around 1979 doing something of using a competitors work to make their own version. True that things were not corrected until about 1980 with US laws involving copyrights also including videogames to the copyright protected list besides movies, music and literature.
I can't imagine Gremlin Industries, by the time it was acquired/merged with Sega in 1980 doing any kind of partial bootlegging of some videogame.
If we're talking pong clone type games during mid 1970s where companies (Fun Games cheating off of Atari with Tank example) did copy from each other, then I can see it happening....but not by the time 1980 and following years after where an established Gremlin/Sega would do something like that.
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Re: Why is Super Moon Cresta part of the main game romset?
[Re: gregf]
#368446 - 07/31/17 06:50 PM
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> >> I'm curious about something: is this game truly a bootleg?
> >
> >> The reason that I ask is that it was released by a licensee of the original
> >> (Gremlin/Sega). Wouldn't that just make the game an update of sorts, rather than a
> >> bootleg? Midway did something similar with Space Invaders 2 cocktail, where it was
> an
> >> in-house project rather than a release of Taito code.
>
>
> > well the set in MAME is definitely a bootleg, the 'POR' you see in the corner
> actually
> > points at an earlier bootlegger before Gremlin got it.
>
> > specifically, it's originally part of the Spanish bootleg by Sonic where it says
> 'Por
> > Sonic' which translates to 'By Sonic' The rest of the string was blanked out.
>
> > I suspect Gremlin just bootlegged it from another bootleg to be perfectly honest, a
> lot
> > of companies had shady beginnings. You'll find people swearing blind it's original
> > because it came from an original PCB or whatever, but it isn't, not even slightly.
>
>
> Any chance that whoever sent that Gremlin set in and was supported many years ago,
> may have come from a modified/poorly repaired pcb that had a mixed set of roms on the
> pcb?
>
> With Gremlin Industries already established in mid 1970s with their wall games they
> first marketed, I can't picture the company even after being acquired by Sega around
> 1979 doing something of using a competitors work to make their own version. True that
> things were not corrected until about 1980 with US laws involving copyrights also
> including videogames to the copyright protected list besides movies, music and
> literature.
>
> I can't imagine Gremlin Industries, by the time it was acquired/merged with Sega in
> 1980 doing any kind of partial bootlegging of some videogame.
>
> If we're talking pong clone type games during mid 1970s where companies (Fun Games
> cheating off of Atari with Tank example) did copy from each other, then I can see it
> happening....but not by the time 1980 and following years after where an established
> Gremlin/Sega would do something like that.
Apparently 'Ali Baba and 40 Thieves' which claims to be a 1982 Sega game is full of code lifted straight from Pacman with various hacks applied.
I haven't verified that myself, but, you know...
there's still a bit of a mystery surrounding the protection on that one too.
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| casm |
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Cinematronics > *
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Re: Why is Super Moon Cresta part of the main game romset?
[Re: Haze]
#368450 - 07/31/17 11:01 PM
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> Apparently 'Ali Baba and 40 Thieves' which claims to be a 1982 Sega game is full of
> code lifted straight from Pacman with various hacks applied.
>
> I haven't verified that myself, but, you know...
>
> there's still a bit of a mystery surrounding the protection on that one too.
True, but by the same token it's not uncommon for bootlegs / hacks to leave in the original manufacturer's copyright notices - and there are a couple of cases where copyright has been deliberately misattributed.
WRT Ali Baba and the 40 Thieves, it wouldn't surprise me to find that it was a straight-up hack of Pac-Man with misattributed copyright. In the absence of flyers, etc. to back up its origins and knowing that even PCBs (particularly those from Nintendo and Namco / Midway) were produced with bootleg copyrights on them, it's at least a possibility.
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Re: Why is Super Moon Cresta part of the main game romset?
[Re: casm]
#368451 - 07/31/17 11:02 PM
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> > Apparently 'Ali Baba and 40 Thieves' which claims to be a 1982 Sega game is full of
> > code lifted straight from Pacman with various hacks applied.
> >
> > I haven't verified that myself, but, you know...
> >
> > there's still a bit of a mystery surrounding the protection on that one too.
>
> True, but by the same token it's not uncommon for bootlegs / hacks to leave in the
> original manufacturer's copyright notices - and there are a couple of cases where
> copyright has been deliberately misattributed.
>
> WRT Ali Baba and the 40 Thieves, it wouldn't surprise me to find that it was a
> straight-up hack of Pac-Man with misattributed copyright. In the absence of flyers,
> etc. to back up its origins and knowing that even PCBs (particularly those from
> Nintendo and Namco / Midway) were produced with bootleg copyrights on them, it's at
> least a possibility.
I'd say the same if there wern't home ports of it. Home port don't usually happen for random arcade hacks.
but for your other point, yes, there are a lot of bootleg PCBs that really try to look like originals, sometimes the even get sold for silly money as 'prototypes'
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| casm |
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Cinematronics > *
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Re: Why is Super Moon Cresta part of the main game romset?
[Re: Haze]
#368465 - 08/01/17 06:33 AM
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> > > Apparently 'Ali Baba and 40 Thieves' which claims to be a 1982 Sega game is full
> of
> > > code lifted straight from Pacman with various hacks applied.
> > >
> > > I haven't verified that myself, but, you know...
> > >
> > > there's still a bit of a mystery surrounding the protection on that one too.
> >
> > True, but by the same token it's not uncommon for bootlegs / hacks to leave in the
> > original manufacturer's copyright notices - and there are a couple of cases where
> > copyright has been deliberately misattributed.
> >
> > WRT Ali Baba and the 40 Thieves, it wouldn't surprise me to find that it was a
> > straight-up hack of Pac-Man with misattributed copyright. In the absence of flyers,
> > etc. to back up its origins and knowing that even PCBs (particularly those from
> > Nintendo and Namco / Midway) were produced with bootleg copyrights on them, it's at
> > least a possibility.
>
> I'd say the same if there wern't home ports of it. Home port don't usually happen for
> random arcade hacks.
Fair point. I actually wasn't aware that there was a home port of Ali Baba; it seemed sufficiently obscure enough that the game was something of an odd candidate for porting from the arcade. Then again, there's Espial, and that made it to a number of home platforms.
> but for your other point, yes, there are a lot of bootleg PCBs that really try to
> look like originals, sometimes the even get sold for silly money as 'prototypes'
True. Another possibility: Ali Baba was developed outside of Sega, licensed or bought in, and had their copyright slapped on it without complete code review (or with, and they decided to turn a blind eye to it). Then again, the hardware (judging from the MAME driver) looks to pretty much be vanilla Pac-Man, so it's not clear to me how someone at Sega could have missed that similarity two years after Pac-Man had had time to flood the market.
Either way, it's an interesting one. I really hope that more info as to its origins crop up some day.
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