|
Opt-in fire brigade
#235695 - 10/06/10 04:15 AM
|
|
|
|
|
| DMala |
|
Sleep is overrated
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 05/09/05
|
|
Posts: 3989
|
|
Loc: Waltham, MA
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: Opt-in fire brigade
[Re: Matty_]
#235717 - 10/06/10 06:39 AM
|
|
|
> This is an interesting Libertarian idea:
> http://thinkprogress.org/2010/10/04/county-firefighters-subscription/
They try to paint this as a conservative vs. liberal issue, but it sounds more to me like your run of the mill, local-yokel political bullshit. Sure, the city should get reimbursed for providing fire services to people outside the city limits, but logically it should come out of their taxes somehow. $75 a year and you can't pay after the fact or we'll let your house burn down sounds more like a protection racket than municipal services.
|
|
|
|
Re: Opt-in fire brigade
[Re: DMala]
#235718 - 10/06/10 06:43 AM
|
|
|
> $75 a year and you can't pay after the fact or we'll let your house burn down sounds more like a protection racket
> than municipal services.
Yeah, but it's a libertarian protection racket so I can blame Ron Paul :P
|
|
|
| ninjakid |
|
MAME PUNK
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 10/28/05
|
|
Posts: 513
|
|
Loc: an open field west of a white house, with a boarded front door.
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: Opt-in fire brigade
[Re: DMala]
#235720 - 10/06/10 06:44 AM
|
|
|
Yeah, That's total bullshit!
Put the fire out and fine or charge the guy. Don't drive all the trucks and firefighters out there just to fucking watch!
|
There is no law in the arena
|
|
| DMala |
|
Sleep is overrated
|
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 05/09/05
|
|
Posts: 3989
|
|
Loc: Waltham, MA
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: Opt-in fire brigade
[Re: ninjakid]
#235722 - 10/06/10 06:50 AM
|
|
|
> Yeah, That's total bullshit!
> Put the fire out and fine or charge the guy. Don't drive all the trucks and
> firefighters out there just to fucking watch!
Well, in their defense, they drove out when it spread to the neighbor's field, because he had paid his protection money fee. If it hadn't spread, they wouldn't have bothered to come out at all.
On the other hand, as shitty as it is, why wouldn't you just pay the fee? $75 a year isn't a lot of money, considering the consequences of not paying it.
|
|
|
|
Re: Opt-in fire brigade
[Re: Matty_]
#235724 - 10/06/10 07:17 AM
|
|
|
Eh, I could see it working as $75 for the "insurance"/service or if you don't pay it you can agree to pay the real costs at the time of the accident, which is way more than $75. I don't think it was well thought-out.
|
|
|
GatKong |
|
Tetris Mason
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 04/20/07
|
|
Posts: 5904
|
|
Loc: Sector 9
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: Opt-in fire brigade
[Re: Matty_]
#235725 - 10/06/10 07:20 AM
|
|
|
$75? What dumb ass wouldn't pay that unless he was counting on free service if his house caught fire. If that's how their system works... you need to participate to benefit. Makes sense to me. Only a moron would opt out.. he suffered for his own stupidity.
Think about it this way... if you don't pay... and they'll still put your fire out... who'd EVER pay... which results in an unfunded fire department.
Would you feel sorry for him if he also didn't have fire insurance? Or just say "what a dumb ass" for not having fire insurance on his house too. No one's going to buy him a new free house because he's uninsured dumb-ass are they?
What they describe was common in South Carolina... your house would have a fire plaque on the front if you paid... and didn't if you didn't. BUT you could pay a ridiculous fee if they arrived and you didn't have a plaque... it was like 100 times the normal rate.
Sounds like the current health care fiasco, no? Why carry insurance if you can go to the ER and get your care for free (they can't turn you away)... so young healthy people opt out... so relatively mostly sick/elderly in health plans... so premiums are through the roof... so young healthy people can't afford it... and the cycle continues spirals out of control.
One possible fix is to allow hospitals to deny care if you can't pay... then everyone, by natural market forces, will sign up BEFORE they are sick, bringing healthy people into the pool, which will bring premiums down to affordable levels. That, or let the government take over every aspect of your life like a big nanny tit. That's Obama's theory... force you into health insurance to get the healthy young in the plans to balance all the old geezers in the plans, and to balance all the "freeloafers" who show up in ER's without coverage... the government doing what the market would do if the government just got the hell out of the way.
So yeah, they guy tried to save $75 a year to cover his ESPN cable channel upgrade.... and put his house on the line to do it... dumb ass, I say.
|
|
|
| Tomu Breidah |
|
No Problems, Only Solutions
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 08/14/04
|
|
Posts: 6816
|
|
Loc: Neither here, nor there.
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: Opt-in fire brigade
[Re: GatKong]
#235732 - 10/06/10 09:03 AM
|
|
|
I posted a reply before, & I've deleted it since (after reading your reply). The outrage comes from what is generally expected to be a service that isn't usually paid for (directly), just out of city taxes or whatever. It also seems very heartless that those firefighters could just sit by as that family's home was destroyed. I hope they can sleep at night... and I hope (for their sake) that not too many people know who they (the firefighters) are. Bureaucracy be damned! ...
Yet... I would wonder. If this wasn't a way to get more people to pay the protection fee. If not - it's a fine example... That's cold.
Where do you draw the line? What if someone doesn't pay an ambulance "subscription" fee? Do they have to be left to die?
ETA: Hmm... I wonder if someone else that had paid their "fee" could've waived it for the sake of that family's home? 
If someone paid and didn't need it...? Or what about someone that paid the one time fee but is very very accident prone and they're on their 30th fire for the season. Are they still covered for all fires after having paid the one time fee? 
|
LEVEL-4
|
|
|
Re: Opt-in fire brigade
[Re: Tomu Breidah]
#235740 - 10/06/10 01:32 PM
|
|
|
> I posted a reply before, & I've deleted it since (after reading your reply). The
> outrage comes from what is generally expected to be a service that isn't usually paid
> for (directly), just out of city taxes or whatever. It also seems very heartless that
> those firefighters could just sit by as that family's home was destroyed. I hope they
> can sleep at night... and I hope (for their sake) that not too many people know who
> they (the firefighters) are. Bureaucracy be damned! ...
>
> Yet... I would wonder. If this wasn't a way to get more people to pay the protection
> fee. If not - it's a fine example... That's cold.
>
It would be a cryaing shame if something were to happen to your beautiful abode here would it not?
Also, imagine a world where everything is privatized...Huxley is smiling.
|
Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum.
|
|
| DMala |
|
Sleep is overrated
|
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 05/09/05
|
|
Posts: 3989
|
|
Loc: Waltham, MA
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: Opt-in fire brigade
[Re: GatKong]
#235768 - 10/06/10 06:27 PM
|
|
|
> $75? What dumb ass wouldn't pay that unless he was counting on free service if his
> house caught fire. If that's how their system works... you need to participate to
> benefit. Makes sense to me. Only a moron would opt out.. he suffered for his own
> stupidity.
>
> Think about it this way... if you don't pay... and they'll still put your fire out...
> who'd EVER pay... which results in an unfunded fire department.
>
> Would you feel sorry for him if he also didn't have fire insurance? Or just say "what
> a dumb ass" for not having fire insurance on his house too. No one's going to buy him
> a new free house because he's uninsured dumb-ass are they?
>
> What they describe was common in South Carolina... your house would have a fire
> plaque on the front if you paid... and didn't if you didn't. BUT you could pay a
> ridiculous fee if they arrived and you didn't have a plaque... it was like 100 times
> the normal rate.
But that's the difference. In this case, they wouldn't even take cash on the spot to save his house. I mean, OK, yes, he's a dumbass for not just paying the fee. Charge him some ridiculous amount to put out the fire. But to just stand there and watch his house burn just to make a point seems unnecessarily cruel. Not to mention, what if someone were trapped in the house? Would they still stand by, let them burn or make some untrained civilian run in to make the save? There's more to life than just money.
|
|
|
| DR |
|
Skeptical Linkbot
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 04/05/07
|
|
Posts: 1181
|
|
Loc: UK
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: Opt-in fire brigade
[Re: GatKong]
#235773 - 10/06/10 07:00 PM
|
|
|
> Sounds like the current health care fiasco, no? Why carry insurance if you can go to
> the ER and get your care for free (they can't turn you away)... so young healthy
> people opt out... so relatively mostly sick/elderly in health plans... so premiums
> are through the roof... so young healthy people can't afford it... and the cycle
> continues spirals out of control.
>
> One possible fix is to allow hospitals to deny care if you can't pay... then
> everyone, by natural market forces, will sign up BEFORE they are sick, bringing
> healthy people into the pool, which will bring premiums down to affordable levels.
> That, or let the government take over every aspect of your life like a big nanny tit.
> That's Obama's theory... force you into health insurance to get the healthy young in
> the plans to balance all the old geezers in the plans, and to balance all the
> "freeloafers" who show up in ER's without coverage... the government doing what the
> market would do if the government just got the hell out of the way.
Yeah right on, my wife and I pay a minimal amount in tax every month towards the National Heatlth Service and for what?
Shit all I've had from them are 4 days in hospital with a broken leg and ankle and follow up therapy. A broken collar bone x-rayed and attended to, a broken arm pinned and a 2 day stay in hospital. Without going into detail other members of my immediate family only have ongoing care from a consultant who is world renowned in his field and use of one of the best MRI scanners in the country.
You must have seen the news, its like the third world over here we let people die all over the place because its too expensive to treat them. Thank goodness the media are totally trustworthy and would never just highlight the problems with the NHS rather than present abalanced view.
I wish we had your healthcare system we would have saved a fourtune! Your so lucky over there, get that idiot out of the Whitehouse before you end up like us!
|
There is no sin except stupidity.
|
|
| Fever |
|
Reformed Sk3n3 Quitter
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/21/03
|
|
Posts: 2090
|
|
Loc: Britland
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: Opt-in fire brigade
[Re: Matty_]
#235781 - 10/06/10 07:32 PM
|
|
|
> > $75 a year and you can't pay after the fact or we'll let your house burn down
> sounds more like a protection racket
> > than municipal services.
>
> Yeah, but it's a libertarian protection racket so I can blame Ron Paul :P
Err the article points the finger at the conservatives, don't know where you're getting this 'libertarian' sthing from
As if any policies in rural Tenassey are 'libertarian'
|
|
|
| Foxhack |
|
Furry guy
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 01/30/04
|
|
Posts: 2409
|
|
Loc: Spicy Canada
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: Opt-in fire brigade
[Re: Tomu Breidah]
#235785 - 10/06/10 08:25 PM
|
|
|
> ETA: Hmm... I wonder if someone else that had paid their "fee" could've waived it for
> the sake of that family's home?
>
> If someone paid and didn't need it...? Or what about someone that paid the one time
> fee but is very very accident prone and they're on their 30th fire for the season.
> Are they still covered for all fires after having paid the one time fee?
The guy offered to pay the $75 on the spot.
The fire chief refused.
|
|
|
| Foxhack |
|
Furry guy
|
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 01/30/04
|
|
Posts: 2409
|
|
Loc: Spicy Canada
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Yep, that's Tennessee allright. *nt*
[Re: Matty_]
#235786 - 10/06/10 08:25 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Opt-in fire brigade
[Re: ninjakid]
#235787 - 10/06/10 08:31 PM
|
|
|
> Yeah, That's total bullshit!
> Put the fire out and fine or charge the guy. Don't drive all the trucks and
> firefighters out there just to fucking watch!
You're right. The homeowner should have thrown a pig roast. 
Kevin Eshbach
|
|
|
| Fever |
|
Reformed Sk3n3 Quitter
|
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/21/03
|
|
Posts: 2090
|
|
Loc: Britland
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: Yep, that's Tennessee allright. *nt*
[Re: Foxhack]
#235792 - 10/06/10 09:09 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
...or, if you want fire protection from a town, MOVE THERE. [nt]
[Re: Matty_]
#235795 - 10/06/10 09:42 PM
|
|
|
|
|
| GatKong |
|
Tetris Mason
|
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 04/20/07
|
|
Posts: 5904
|
|
Loc: Sector 9
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: Opt-in fire brigade
[Re: Foxhack]
#235805 - 10/07/10 01:53 AM
|
|
|
The guy offered to pay the $75 on the spot.
>
> The fire chief refused.
And rightly so. The $75 was for the potential need.
Now he has a bonafide need.
When dealing with government and society, you need to think on the society scale, not individual (the needs of the many outweight the needs of the few  ). If you can pay on the spot... who would pay in advance? And then only people in need would pay... so the fee would have to go from $75 to something like $50,000 or more (how expensive is the annual fire service maintencance budget divided by how many fires they put out).
On a society level, it was right to let his house burn, so others don't follow in his lead and withhold their payment until the need arises.
Maybe they could have offered him an infalted emergency-need fee, however... like $20,000 or something... on a per-fire basis still not enough to properly fund the service, but enough to deter future free-loafers, and still a savings compared to replacing his house and all it's contents.
I bet this guy will also have a battle with his home insurance co. They'll want to know why he didn't have fire service, which I bet is a requirement for his plan. He may be out enturely, even if he HAD a plan.
|
|
|
|
Re: Opt-in fire brigade
[Re: Fever]
#235808 - 10/07/10 02:43 AM
|
|
|
> Err the article points the finger at the conservatives, don't know where you're
> getting this 'libertarian' sthing from
> As if any policies in rural Tenassey are 'libertarian'
It's the libertarian ideal - no services provided for those who don't pay for them explicitly.
|
|
|
|
Re: Opt-in fire brigade
[Re: DMala]
#235818 - 10/07/10 05:36 AM
|
|
|
To use the term "protection money" (even though it's scored out) implies that you think the fire department would actually burn them out if they didn't pay
|
|
|
| Tomu Breidah |
|
No Problems, Only Solutions
|
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 08/14/04
|
|
Posts: 6816
|
|
Loc: Neither here, nor there.
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Allowing -vs- Not Disallowing [nt]
[Re: DrLarryE]
#235823 - 10/07/10 07:08 AM
|
|
|
|
|
| GatKong |
|
Tetris Mason
|
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 04/20/07
|
|
Posts: 5904
|
|
Loc: Sector 9
|
|
|
|
Send PM
|
|
|
Re: Opt-in fire brigade
[Re: Matty_]
#235861 - 10/07/10 06:48 PM
|
|
|
>It's the libertarian ideal - no services provided for those who don't pay for them explicitly.
Or the other way to look at it... it's your choice.
If you CHOOSE not to participate... it's your responsibility (not society's) if your choices don't work out for you.
The converse is true.... make good choices... and likewise society won't glom and parasitize the benefits you reap from your choices.
In otherwords... you have the right to PURSUE happiness. No where does our constitution say you have the RIGHT to happiness paid for by the fruits of your neighbor.
|
|
|
Index 
Threaded 
Opt-in fire brigade
Reply
[Re: 
). If you can pay on the spot... who would pay in advance? And then only people in need would pay... so the fee would have to go from $75 to something like $50,000 or more (how expensive is the annual fire service maintencance budget divided by how many fires they put out).
