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Arcade VGA 5000 with HDTV display rotated
#326896 - 06/13/14 01:27 PM
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Hello all,
I have been trying to work out buying a Arcade VGA (again) and I have been having issues I never have before.
I have a multi-monitor setup for playing pinball games. However I am also interested in playing older games with the display rotated vertically.
The problem is that unlike my old LCD monitor, I am getting frame rate issues in direct draw mode. In direct 3D mode it is smooth as can be, but it doesn't look like I want it to with the "jaggies".
My questions are as follows.
1. Can the new card do independent display rotating.
2. Has anyone displayed an HDTV rotated and had this fix the problem in regards to frame rate?
I know in the past, the card was pretty cool and gave me nice ready made resolutions. Ultimately I found that direct draw did the same thing that I wanted. However, from what I understand the Arcade VGA does fix low frame rate issues and may be exactly what I need.
I have a Vizio LED HDTV set (one 720p Horizontal and one 1080 vertical) and my purpose it to play the widest array of games. The Horizontal one doesn't seem to have the problem on direct draw or direct 3D frame rates at all(probably because of the lower resolution paired with it shrinking the vertical display to a smaller area).
YET what bugs me is the thought that this could work with proper custom resolutions. I have played around with the lowest pre-sets that NVIDIA gives for my display and it does down to 640x480 (actually reversed for my display), but this isn't satisfying to me compared to what I know the arcade vga does (provided the frame rate is right).
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Re: Arcade VGA 5000 with HDTV display rotated
[Re: genesim]
#326912 - 06/13/14 10:53 PM
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> Hello all,
>
> I have been trying to work out buying a Arcade VGA (again) and I have been having
> issues I never have before.
>
> I have a multi-monitor setup for playing pinball games. However I am also interested
> in playing older games with the display rotated vertically.
>
> The problem is that unlike my old LCD monitor, I am getting frame rate issues in
> direct draw mode. In direct 3D mode it is smooth as can be, but it doesn't look like
> I want it to with the "jaggies".
You can filter "the jaggies" away with HLSL or by enabling bilinear filtering (which is enabled by default, you must have disabled it at some point). Try D3D mode again, also make sure you're running MAME at the native resolution of your HDTV.
S
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Re: Arcade VGA 5000 with HDTV display rotated
[Re: Sune]
#326918 - 06/14/14 01:36 AM
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I am sorry, but I don't want to filter the "jaggies". I want them there as they are written in the code. That is the point of the Arcade VGA card from the PC standpoint. It emulates the resolution of the large dot pitch by using multiple pixel representation.
That is..unless the framerate can't be fixed.
This is the million dollar question for me. Since going to a bigger monitor, direct draw seems to have frame rate issues that I have never seen before. YET Direct 3D seems to be fine, but it is blurry and that is not what I desire at all.
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Re: Arcade VGA 5000 with HDTV display rotated
[Re: genesim]
#326924 - 06/14/14 02:06 AM
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> I am sorry, but I don't want to filter the "jaggies". I want them there as they are
> written in the code. That is the point of the Arcade VGA card from the PC standpoint.
> It emulates the resolution of the large dot pitch by using multiple pixel
> representation.
No it doesn't. The ArcadeVGA outputs 1:1 resolutions on 15, 24 and 31 KHz analog CRT monitors.
The ArcadeVGA does in no way emulate anything nor does it do any sort of "multiple pixel representation" or other image processing on its own.
It is totally pointless to use one with a HDTV or any fixed resolution digital display.
If you want to see pixels when using the D3D renderer, then set prescale to 2 or 3, disable bilinear filtering and set MAME to not switch resolutions.
Make sure that you're running Windows in the native resolution of your HDTV and that all of its built-in scaling and post processing is disabled.
S
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Re: Arcade VGA 5000 with HDTV display rotated
[Re: Sune]
#326929 - 06/14/14 05:02 AM
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Please excuse my ignorance. I have never understood how any LCD/LED monitor has a native resolution, but also displays other resolutions.
Say for instance if I put it down to 800x600 that is exactly what it looks like. The HDTV gives me the same kind of range as my old LCD monitor..except it is bigger and actually frames the game better.
On Andy's website it says:
"On PC monitors, all the native game resolutions are available, plus conventional Windows resolutions."
Is there any advantage compared with normal cards on a PC monitor?
If you say that multiple pixels isn't representing one...then how are big dots made with a smaller dot pitch? Wouldn't it be mathematically impossible to show the same kind of look without it being multiple pixel? Maybe Andy's card isn't doing anything special, but my understanding is that it is forcing the the PC monitor to display resolutions through and emulation process.
That said, I know if I am seeing a low Pacman resolution and however many pixels are being drawn (or phosphored..I guess is what you call it on a old CRT monitor) it again would have to be some multiplier of the large resolution of a new display. Again, is this not logical thinking?
I thank you so much for your help on the rest though. Your settings gave me what I needed. I am sorry if it isn't the popular vote, but for me I don't like Pacman looking blurry. I know it isn't the same as having a CRT monitor, but I swear it doesn't look like that in arcade either(that blurry).
What I do like is having a nice big display for Pacman and other vertical games..etc. and a HDTV rotated on its side is a vast improvement to me over a crappy PC monitor.
What I can't figure out is why Direct 3D has better frame rate than Direct Draw.
If nothing else, again THANK YOU.
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Re: Arcade VGA 5000 with HDTV display rotated
[Re: genesim]
#326931 - 06/14/14 06:27 AM
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> Please excuse my ignorance. I have never understood how any LCD/LED monitor has a
> native resolution, but also displays other resolutions.
>
> Say for instance if I put it down to 800x600 that is exactly what it looks like. The
> HDTV gives me the same kind of range as my old LCD monitor..except it is bigger and
> actually frames the game better.
Yes you can do that, but the TV (and your old LCD) is not actually changing resolution, it is scaling up the image so that it fits the screen. It's still doing 1080p or whatever its real resolution is.
Then you get a domino effect where scaling and stretching causes artifacts which are then compensated for by filtering, which blurs the image and in turn adds control lag because of the extra time the TV takes to process the image in order to make it "look good" (of course the more expensive the TV, the better it should be at doing that).
That's why it's advantageous to always drive a modern digital display at its native resolution. You'll want it to display an 1:1 image and do as little else as possible.
> On Andy's website it says:
>
> "On PC monitors, all the native game resolutions are available, plus conventional
> Windows resolutions."
You have to read that in context...that particular blurb has been up on the Ultimarc site since way back when the first ArcadeVGA came out and everybody had analog CRT monitors.
> Is there any advantage compared with normal cards on a PC monitor?
Not that I know of. Besides the ability to easily drive a real analog arcade monitor, there is no special sauce in the ArcadeVGA, no special post-processing tricks. Any video card from green or red camp lets you add custom resolutions somewhere in the driver control panel, if that's what you want, and that's not a new thing either. Before you could do it from the driver control panel there were external tools such as Entech Taiwan's Powerstrip that let you do the same thing. I used to have a standard ATI Radeon 7000 driving a 15Khz monitor with Powerstrip. Incidentally, the same card that the first ArcadeVGA was based on. It took a lot of tweaking, sometimes blindly, to get a good image and I only ever got a few resolutions working. If I'd had the money at the time I would have bought an ArcadeVGA and saved myself the trouble.
But again, it's pointless to do that on a fixed resolution flat panel that will scale, filter and stretch the image anyway at any time it is not being driven at its native resolution. If it didn't do that, you'd see a tiny image in the middle of the screen surrounded by black nothing.
You'll always get a better experience if you let your video card do the work instead. Which is what you're doing now with the settings I showed you.
The main idea of the ArcadeVGA is that you can use it with a real 15Khz arcade monitor and enjoy the MAME side effect at raw 1:1 resolutions with no image post-processing at all. That's its intended purpose and it's great for that.
> If you say that multiple pixels isn't representing one...then how are big dots made
> with a smaller dot pitch? Wouldn't it be mathematically impossible to show the same
> kind of look without it being multiple pixel? Maybe Andy's card isn't doing anything
> special, but my understanding is that it is forcing the the PC monitor to display
> resolutions through and emulation process.
No, there is no emulation or even simulation. Basically the ArcadeVGA has a bunch of lower resolutions added to the list of available resolutions and is tweaked to sync at 15 and 24KHz when used with old analog arcade monitors.
But that doesn't matter at all in your case because you can't force a digital display to run at any other resolution than its native resolution. Again, depending on how your monitor is configured, it will either scale and stretch a lower resolution image to fill the screen or, if you deliberately disable scaling, display a tiny but perfect 1:1 image surrounded by black space.
> That said, I know if I am seeing a low Pacman resolution and however many pixels are
> being drawn (or phosphored..I guess is what you call it on a old CRT monitor) it
> again would have to be some multiplier of the large resolution of a new display.
> Again, is this not logical thinking?
Yes but with the right settings MAME does that for you already, on any modern video card. You don't need an ArcadeVGA for that.
> I thank you so much for your help on the rest though. Your settings gave me what I
> needed. I am sorry if it isn't the popular vote, but for me I don't like Pacman
> looking blurry. I know it isn't the same as having a CRT monitor, but I swear it
> doesn't look like that in arcade either(that blurry).
I don't like it blurry either, I use either prescale 2 with no filtering and a .png overlay, or HLSL.
> If nothing else, again THANK YOU.
You're welcome, glad to help.
S
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Re: Arcade VGA 5000 with HDTV display rotated
[Re: Sune]
#326944 - 06/14/14 01:38 PM
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Sune,
I am very very thankful for your thought out response. I am glad that they are so many good people out there willing to give explanation for those that are trying to get problems solved.
I guess our differences on pixel scaling is more semantic. I understand now that the resolution isn't exactly changing, but in the end if there is any kind of scaling you have to have multiple pixels displaying bigger dots. I have never actually counted how many pixels on an Arcade screen make up one say..pellet on a Pacman display, but at the same time an LED display at a higher display, has to dedicate more pixels to draw the same pellet picture. Eventually if you have enough pixels, the difference won't be as perceptible.
I think it is all a trade off. While I understand people wanting authentic to what was played in the arcade, I also have always criticized the color bleeding not being uniform, the curve most of the time not being programmed for (i.e. uniform coding), the overall dimming that comes much faster on arcade displays, more prominent burn in,radiation, picture distortion to the edges...etc.
It is a trade off, but for me having a paper light display, and a nice big picture is what I want. That with something as good as I can get it with what I have on hand is also key. For me playing Pinball with a multiple display has been fantastic, and other than the DMD Pinball wasn't designed to be played on any display so it is a moot point when it comes to that love.
For me, again I file it under good enough.
If I may bug you about one more thing.
When I play Mortal Kombat with Direct Draw or Direct 3D I seem to get similar results (or perhaps it is imperceptible to me).
But the Arcade VGA is supposed to run Mortal Kombat at 53hz. Andy says it may or may not work on my HDTV depending on how the signal is sent to my PC through the VGA input.
If it does a kind of simulation this could be interesting because the website claims to have this mode and can do it for a PC Monitor. I used to own the card, and wish I could test it, but I that is why I am here. lol I keep wondering if it is worth the benefit and am just looking for second opinions on how useful this could be...or if it will even work at all on a 60hz LED display like I have. The problem as is known is that Mortal Kombat original display isn't a common multiplier of most modern day refresh rates, but the Ultimarc website claims to do 53hz...and exact 60hz.
I know it seemed to work with my LCD display years ago but I don't know how. If it does, I don't know how he can with it not being an even multiplier...but that would be pretty cool to again have some kind of emulated frame rate. Is this just a pipe dream? Anyone with experience on modern displays?
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Re: Arcade VGA 5000 with HDTV display rotated
[Re: genesim]
#326953 - 06/14/14 06:36 PM
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> Sune,
>
> I am very very thankful for your thought out response. I am glad that they are so
> many good people out there willing to give explanation for those that are trying to
> get problems solved.
>
> I guess our differences on pixel scaling is more semantic. I understand now that the
> resolution isn't exactly changing, but in the end if there is any kind of scaling you
> have to have multiple pixels displaying bigger dots. I have never actually counted
> how many pixels on an Arcade screen make up one say..pellet on a Pacman display, but
> at the same time an LED display at a higher display, has to dedicate more pixels to
> draw the same pellet picture. Eventually if you have enough pixels, the difference
> won't be as perceptible.
Yes. I don't pretend to understand the technical side of it but that's what the prescale setting does for you. You can try setting it higher but going beyond 4 doesn't really make much sense, at that point you're starting to scale the game to a resolution that's higher than your actual display resolution, except for the really low res games like Do! Run Run for example. 3 is a good compromise at least for me @ 1920x1080.
> I think it is all a trade off. While I understand people wanting authentic to what
> was played in the arcade, I also have always criticized the color bleeding not being
> uniform, the curve most of the time not being programmed for (i.e. uniform coding),
> the overall dimming that comes much faster on arcade displays, more prominent burn
> in,radiation, picture distortion to the edges...etc.
That's what HLSL is for. Try enabling it in mame.ini. It probably won't look so hot with the default settings but you can tweak it yourself or look for HLSL settings posted by other users here. Note that HLSL has its own prescale setting. Depending on what video card you have, some settings can really put a load on it, so be careful, sometimes there is a different way to get the effect you want with much less of a performance hit. It's fun to play with, you decide if you want it to look like a worn out, badly calibrated arcade monitor where the colors are off or misaligned..or a brand new one that just left the Wells-Gardner assembly line back in 1986.
> When I play Mortal Kombat with Direct Draw or Direct 3D I seem to get similar results
> (or perhaps it is imperceptible to me).
>
> But the Arcade VGA is supposed to run Mortal Kombat at 53hz.
It doesn't matter if your monitor can't actually sync at 53 Hz - it probably can't. Either way as I said you can easily create a custom resolution @ 53Hz in your video card control panel and test it yourself. Try the native res of your HDTV with a 53Hz refresh rate. It probably won't work though.
> Andy says it may or may
> not work on my HDTV depending on how the signal is sent to my PC through the VGA
> input.
Hold on. The input is on your monitor, not your video card.
I hope you aren't using VGA with your HDTV! You should be using a digital connection, DVI, HDMI or Display Port.
> If it does a kind of simulation this could be interesting because the website claims
> to have this mode and can do it for a PC Monitor.
Yes, if the monitor can actually do 53Hz.
> I know it seemed to work with my LCD display years ago but I don't know how. If it
> does, I don't know how he can with it not being an even multiplier...but that would
> be pretty cool to again have some kind of emulated frame rate. Is this just a pipe
> dream? Anyone with experience on modern displays?
Google Gsync. AMD/ATI offer a similar thing now but I can't remember what it's called. Note that you need a display that's built for it, you can't do it with the HDTV you have.
S
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Re: Arcade VGA 5000 with HDTV display rotated
[Re: Sune]
#326967 - 06/14/14 11:12 PM
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For HLSL I tried enabling it, but I got a big fat error. I am using MAM Plux XT. "Unable to initialize direct 3d, unable to initialize windows creation"
As for digital, I tried to to run one HDMI to DVI, and one straight DVI....I got weird results. First the 720p top monitor actually went in 1080p? The text looked funny. The second monitor wouldn't even show up no matter what I tried.
So I got both just going VGA to DVI. I have an Nvidia 9800gtx+ and it only has two DVI inputs. While I would prefer a digital connection, I need to get another HDMI to DVI converter. The first time I was using an old LCD as the second monitor, but now I got the two HDTV's for the cab. It looks great for pinball, but don't know what to think about the multi-display problem there. I hope it is improved with a second converter. I am just debating climbing back there to do it again. Hooking up those cables are a pain in the ass and it literally means I have to pull all the stuff out to get my body in the cab. lol
As for frame rate, it only gives me the 60hz option. The only way I could test it is to have Andy's card unless you know of another way to force it.
Edited by genesim (06/14/14 11:13 PM)
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> For HLSL I tried enabling it, but I got a big fat error. I am using MAM Plux XT.
> "Unable to initialize direct 3d, unable to initialize windows creation"
You need to install DirectX 9, it does not ship with Windows Vista, 7 and 8.
Get it here: http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=35
> I have an Nvidia 9800gtx+ and it only has two
> DVI inputs.
Dude. "input" does not mean where you "put in" the plug. Input and output describes the direction of a signal. The ports on your video card are all outputs. The video signal comes from there and goes to the video input on your TV. Output to input.
> As for digital, I tried to to run one HDMI to DVI, and one straight DVI....I got
> weird results. First the 720p top monitor actually went in 1080p? The text looked
> funny. The second monitor wouldn't even show up no matter what I tried.
If the monitor is 720p there is no way that it "went in 1080p" 
If it's 1080p then you should run it in 1080p. Use the nvidia driver control panel to set up your displays.
Download and install the latest driver for the 9800 GTX here:
http://www.nvidia.com/Download/index.aspx?lang=en-us
> As for frame rate, it only gives me the 60hz option. The only way I could test it is
> to have Andy's card unless you know of another way to force it.
Like I said, you must create a custom resolution. But I'll bet that your HDTV probably won't sync to 53Hz. If you want to try, see attached image. Install the driver first.
[ATTACHED IMAGE - CLICK FOR FULL SIZE]
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Re: Arcade VGA 5000 with HDTV display rotated
[Re: Sune]
#326976 - 06/15/14 02:37 AM
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Good call on the Direct x 9. I am running Windows XP with as little updates as possible. I swear they slow down the computer.
I am running MAME XT 143u8 and it is slow as ass. I just got MAME UI 146 and I am thinking of changing over. Loads up much faster. Just found MAME plus 153 but I am skeptical to update because I like these versions fine and I have the file to match that. Would rather have at least the MAMUI 143u8 if I could find it. I can't even remember why I switched over, but I am thinking that it was for command.dat...but that isn't needed with a multi-monitor that just lets me load any word file...and high score support to me is outdated as well as long as I use a auto save option to just keep the machine as it is. There are a few games that are supported nowhere else...but I for the life of me can't remember.
At any rate, I did your custom resolution and I was pleased that it did take the 53hz...but I couldn't see crap for difference. I went back and forth back and forth...maybe I am old, but I could see no difference on Mortal Kombat. Perhaps it isn't worth it.
I swear to you that 1080p did take on my Vizo 720p. It was truly weird. BUT like I said, I hated how the text look..something was just off. It was sharp, but it just didn't look right. Kind of like watching 3D that is just a little out of sync. Noted on the OUTPUT. Yes totally correct. I will work on not making that mistake again. lol
You have helped me so much though and I have to be honest, the Arcade VGA just might work, but part of me is thinking..what is the point, because Direct 3D looks pretty darn good now with your settings.
Edited by genesim (06/15/14 02:56 AM)
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Re: Arcade VGA 5000 with HDTV display rotated
[Re: genesim]
#326979 - 06/15/14 03:40 AM
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> At any rate, I did your custom resolution and I was pleased that it did take the
> 53hz...but I couldn't see crap for difference.
Yes, the video card will "take" it no problem. The question is if your display will!
If you're not sure that 53Hz actually worked try to poke around the monitor's menus and look for something that says 'signal information' or something, while it's running in your 53Hz mode. It should show somewhere what rate it's running at. You'll probably find that it says 60Hz though..
If you have done everything right when setting up the custom resolution and you can verify that you've set your video card to use it but it turns out that your monitor is still @ 60Hz - then it will not work when using an ArcadeVGA either. Because it's the exact same thing that the ArcadeVGA does.
> I swear to you that 1080p did take on my Vizo 720p. It was truly weird. BUT like I
> said, I hated how the text look..something was just off. It was sharp, but it just
> didn't look right. Kind of like watching 3D that is just a little out of sync. Noted
> on the OUTPUT. Yes totally correct. I will work on not making that mistake again. lol
Yeah, sorry to get on your back about that! I just think it's an important distinction to make.
I guess it's possible that it automatically downscales to 720p when you feed a 1080p signal to it? No idea.
The image is a little off (noisy) because you're using VGA. Both your video card and your HDTV deserve better than that.
About what you said before - you should put some more effort into getting the cables and adapters you need to use a digital connection. If it's not behaving as it should when using HDMI, something is wrong with your settings either in the video card driver control panel or on the display itself. It should work just fine, your 9800 GTX+ is perfectly capable.
S
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Re: Arcade VGA 5000 with HDTV display rotated
[Re: Sune]
#326986 - 06/15/14 06:31 AM
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Actually since doing the custom resolution, it opened up the 1080p resolution for the 720p monitor as well.
Without question I cranked it up and it displayed fine. Matter of fact, it caused all my settings to be downsized on my pinball back light (second monitor). I even tried to crank it further beyond 1080p and it said ...resolution not supported.
The problem with a digital connection is that it forces a protocol. In this case, 720p. YET the PC resolution is obviously being forced.
The same is true of the 53hz. I don't know how, but I flipped it back and forth and I see a very small difference.
I downloaded MAME plus and I am going to play around with resolutions there as well.
Maybe monitors are like overclocking. It cost just the same to sell monitors that do more and just downsize them price wise as opposed to making newer models.
BUT as far as resolution goes, it displays at the top of my screen and it is without question making a 720p monitor do 1080p..perhaps it was never 720p to begin with!
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Re: Arcade VGA 5000 with HDTV display rotated
[Re: genesim]
#334062 - 10/31/14 06:29 PM
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Just as an FYI, there is some benefit of using the arcade vga with a non 15khz monitor. All of it's low resolution modes like 320 x 240 at 60hz are also available on 31khz displays.
While waiting for my jrok to arrive, I used my arcade vga with a standard vga crt monitor and 240p is selectable in mame. I don't know how they manage to output 320 x 240 at 60hz with a 31khz horizontal rate but that is what they do. Normal vga cards can't do that. 320 x 240 fills the screen with no hardware stretching etc.
On their site, they correctly point out that 320 x 240 on a vga monitor will not look exactly like the arcade monitor because the dot pitch is too fine but it is a noticeable improvement over a regular card.
I combined it with an extron scan converter which converts the 31khz 320 x 240 output to 320 x 240 15khz through s-video for my Sony trinitron crt tv. The result is impressive and much better than anything I could achieve with HLSL on my lcd.
I now use a jrok encoder to convert the 15khz rgb to s-video directly. The result looks almost the same as when I was using the scan converter but it moves better. I always though emulated games had missing frames even when the FPS looked accurate. With the arcade vga, they move just like the original board.
The arcade vga can putput 320 x 240 on an lcd monitor too although there is less of a point because it has to be scaled to fit the native resolution.
There is a big difference between the resolution that the games are rendered at and the display resolution. On a fixed pixel display like an lcd monitor, the image usually looks best when it matches the displays native res. it is poor scaling that is responsible for most of the image problems.
I have a 1024 x 768 lcd projector and mame looks best when all games are set to that resolution (regardless of what the original res was).
CRT vga monitors have no native resolution and games look best at their native resolution, even at 31khz.
For any flat panel monitor, a standard card and HLSL will give the best results but nowhere near as good as a 15khz tv or monitor. If you already have the arcade vga, why not pick up one of the many free crt tv's off craigslist? If you get one with component input then converting the 15khz vga output is not particularly difficult.
The arcade vga is meant to replicate the video logic of the original board where a standard 480i at 30hz signal is manipulated to make the odd and even fields overlap (but not repeat) to produce a 60hz refresh rate. I don't have the technical knowledge to understand how this works when it is output as a real progressive signal. To my eye, it looks like 480i is just doubled to produce 480p at 60hz which may explain why it looks like some animation frames are missing on a flat panel monitor. It could also be the post processing from direct 3d / HLSL.
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Arcade VGA 5000 with HDTV display rotated
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