| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Kale WIP (Raiden II + others)
#242439 - 01/02/11 06:59 AM
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Re: Kale WIP (Raiden II + others)
[Re: R. Belmont]
#242440 - 01/02/11 07:06 AM
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Re: Kale WIP (Raiden II + others)
[Re: R. Belmont]
#242441 - 01/02/11 07:31 AM
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Great Improvement ! 
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| gregf |
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Ramtek's Trivia promoter
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Re: Kale WIP (Raiden II + others)
[Re: R. Belmont]
#242442 - 01/02/11 07:44 AM
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Re: Kale WIP (Raiden II + others)
[Re: R. Belmont]
#242443 - 01/02/11 11:04 AM
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kale
those are the first best news, entering in 2011
keep on emulate them 
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Re: Kale WIP (Raiden II + others)
[Re: R. Belmont]
#242470 - 01/02/11 09:13 PM
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> http://mamedev.emulab.it/kale/?p=1322
The American in that pic looks like Eric Wynalda...
----
Anyway, Kale, make sure you work as slowly as possible on Raiden II. In fact, make sure it is the LAST game you emulate from this driver.
It'll make the rom-kiddies heads spin some more.
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"Note to Noobs:
We are glad to help you but simply posting that something does not work is not going to lead to you getting help. The more information you can supply defining your problem, the less likely it will be that you will get smart-alec replies.
C.D.~"
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Re: Kale WIP (Raiden II + others)
[Re: R. Belmont]
#242489 - 01/03/11 01:57 AM
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Is the protection on these games likely to be implemented by a MCU we can decap or by a custom ASIC or is that not known yet?
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: Kale WIP (Raiden II + others)
[Re: jonwil]
#242493 - 01/03/11 03:38 AM
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> Is the protection on these games likely to be implemented by a MCU we can decap or by
> a custom ASIC or is that not known yet?
Custom ASIC gate array.
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Re: Kale WIP (Raiden II + others)
[Re: R. Belmont]
#242504 - 01/03/11 06:33 AM
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thanks for sharing this
a simple question
the mcu that brings these games are all the same or vary in different pcb?
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: Kale WIP (Raiden II + others)
[Re: fortuna_chan]
#242505 - 01/03/11 07:15 AM
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> the mcu that brings these games are all the same or vary in different pcb?
It's not an MCU, it's a fixed-function ASIC. Kale can speak to the details better, but the functionality is somewhat different on different games.
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| Kale |
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Il Sindaco
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Re: Kale WIP (Raiden II + others)
[Re: R. Belmont]
#242537 - 01/03/11 11:08 PM
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> > the mcu that brings these games are all the same or vary in different pcb?
>
> It's not an MCU, it's a fixed-function ASIC. Kale can speak to the details better,
> but the functionality is somewhat different on different games.
Actually, functionality is the same for all the games minus Seibu Cup Soccer (has an earlier revision of the COP ROM, unknown purpose as per now). The only real differences between Legionnaire and Raiden 2 HWs functionality so far known is the endianess of some commands, but that's mainly because of the different CPU used (m68k vs. i86) and some ports are shuffled around via a PAL, in a clear attempt to not allow exchanging/upgrading of the boards.
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| MASH |
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MASH
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COPX question?
[Re: Kale]
#242546 - 01/04/11 12:44 AM
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> > > the mcu that brings these games are all the same or vary in different pcb?
> >
> > It's not an MCU, it's a fixed-function ASIC. Kale can speak to the details better,
> > but the functionality is somewhat different on different games.
>
> Actually, functionality is the same for all the games minus Seibu Cup Soccer (has an
> earlier revision of the COP ROM, unknown purpose as per now). The only real
> differences between Legionnaire and Raiden 2 HWs functionality so far known is the
> endianess of some commands, but that's mainly because of the different CPU used (m68k
> vs. i86) and some ports are shuffled around via a PAL, in a clear attempt to not
> allow exchanging/upgrading of the boards.
What is the mystery behind the COPX roms?
MAME source and PCB infos of the Legionnaire games says:
Denjin Makai and Godzilla uses a COPX-D2 (copx-d2.313 - user1, 512k). These roms are dumped
and they are identical.
SD Gundam Sangokushi uses a COPX-D2, the rom is also dumped, but only the first 256k.
These 256k are identical to the first 256k of the Denjin Makai/Godzilla COPX-D2.
Seibu Cup Soccer uses a COPX-D1 and the rom was dumped. When you compare it with the
Denjin Makai/Godzilla COPX-D2 it is identical, except the last bytes at 3FFC-3FFF and
7FFC-7FFF, they are filled with $FF in the Denjin Makai/Godzilla COPX-D2 and $00 in Seibu Cup Soccer COPX-D1.
Legionnaire uses a COPX-D1, but it is not dumped. Can it use the Seibu Cup Soccer COPX-D1 ?
Heated Barrel uses a COPX-D2, but it is not dumped. Can it use the Denjin Makai COPX-D2 ?
M*A*S*H
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Re: Kale WIP (Raiden II + others)
[Re: R. Belmont]
#242547 - 01/04/11 12:48 AM
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> It's not an MCU, it's a fixed-function ASIC. Kale can speak to the details better,
> but the functionality is somewhat different on different games.
2 or 3 years ago people were talking about a "DALLAS" chip or somewhat.
Some devs were saying "The dallas chip was the main reason for these games being incorrectly emulated"
By "these games" they were referring some early Gaelco games and Raiden II.
Now you say that there is no MCU related issue in Raiden II emulation.
By the way thanks for your incredible work in Konami GX hardware.
Edited by Hibo (01/04/11 12:52 AM)
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: Kale WIP (Raiden II + others)
[Re: Hibo]
#242554 - 01/04/11 01:18 AM
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> 2 or 3 years ago people were talking about a "DALLAS" chip or somewhat.
> Some devs were saying "The dallas chip was the main reason for these games being
> incorrectly emulated"
> By "these games" they were referring some early Gaelco games and Raiden II.
> Now you say that there is no MCU related issue in Raiden II emulation.
I'd love to see where that was said - it seems like either a misinterpretation of what was being said or someone's attempt to conflate two questions.
The Gaelco protection is entirely different from what Seibu used.
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Re: Kale WIP (Raiden II + others)
[Re: Kale]
#242561 - 01/04/11 01:51 AM
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So if its a fixed function gate array does that mean there is nothing on this hardware that is worthwhile to decap?
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: Kale WIP (Raiden II + others)
[Re: jonwil]
#242571 - 01/04/11 03:03 AM
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> So if its a fixed function gate array does that mean there is nothing on this
> hardware that is worthwhile to decap?
Correct. Decapping it is pretty much fool's gold at this point.
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Re: Kale WIP (Raiden II + others)
[Re: R. Belmont]
#242588 - 01/04/11 04:30 AM
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> > So if its a fixed function gate array does that mean there is nothing on this
> > hardware that is worthwhile to decap?
>
> Correct. Decapping it is pretty much fool's gold at this point.
I believe I've heard it speculated that with extremely magnified images, the gates could be made out and the functions determined from the layout. This does sound pretty damn hard.
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Re: Kale WIP (Raiden II + others)
[Re: R. Belmont]
#242597 - 01/04/11 06:32 AM
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> I'd love to see where that was said - it seems like either a misinterpretation of
> what was being said or someone's attempt to conflate two questions.
>
> The Gaelco protection is entirely different from what Seibu used.
No ; the talks were everywhere.Something like "The nastiest mcu ever Dallas" I remember reading something like that in unmamed.mame.net
I remember talks relating "Dallas" with Raiden II.Especially in old www.mame.net forums.I'm sure about that.I remember something like :"The chip dies when you try to read it.Thats why I'm in no good mood to experiment it on my precious Raiden board"
If you say so than there is no problem for me.Maybe they were people who started false rumours about it.
It seems similar as with Sega 32 System's "Jurrasic Park"!.People were told that the game was using an hard drive instead of roms.Eventually it became clear it had the same board like the other games in the system 32.
Edited by Hibo (01/04/11 06:34 AM)
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| gregf |
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Ramtek's Trivia promoter
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Re: Kale WIP (Raiden II + others)
[Re: Hibo]
#242601 - 01/04/11 07:25 AM
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>the talks were everywhere.Something like "The nastiest mcu ever Dallas" I remember
> reading something like that
Bobby's unMAMEd site is still going.
>I remember talks relating "Dallas" with Raiden II.Especially in old www.mame.net
> forums.I'm sure about that.I remember something like :"The chip dies when you try to
> read it.Thats why I'm in no good mood to experiment it on my precious Raiden board"
>If you say so than there is no problem for me.Maybe they were people who started false
> rumours about it.
>It seems similar as with Sega 32 System's "Jurrasic Park"!.People were told that the
> game was using an hard drive instead of roms.Eventually it became clear it had the same
> board like the other games in the system 32.
Gridle's MAME.net site is/was good. One had to save specific posts (old MAME.net) in case they were informative. I saved a few myself....and I believe the old Dexter posts were archived too (Dexter posts were classics).
As for posts on old MAME.net forums, I would say many were reading and then passing the correct info on to others, but not repeating it correctly...confusion eventually won out.
Kee Games Quiz Show hardware info, on MAME.net forum, was corrected by Al Kossow when Al posted on old MAME.net years ago with the fact that the game uses a 2650 cpu and was not a non-cpu game.
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Re: Kale WIP (Raiden II + others)
[Re: ranger_lennier]
#242616 - 01/04/11 11:36 AM
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| TheGuru |
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MAMEDev Dumper
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Re: COPX question?
[Re: MASH]
#242634 - 01/04/11 04:15 PM
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I dumped all of the COPX ROMs except on SD Gundam Sangokushi.
It's just a 4M ROM. The 256k dump is half-dumped (i.e. bad) and can be replaced with the 512k dump at least for now until the games run better. The $ff / $00 fill is likely caused by the different EPROM programmers that were used to read it.
The key to that ROM is knowing what its for and how to use it. Kale seems to be doing a good job of figuring that out so just wait :-)
> What is the mystery behind the COPX roms?
> MAME source and PCB infos of the Legionnaire games says:
>
> Denjin Makai and Godzilla uses a COPX-D2 (copx-d2.313 - user1, 512k). These roms are
> dumped
> and they are identical.
> SD Gundam Sangokushi uses a COPX-D2, the rom is also dumped, but only the first 256k.
> These 256k are identical to the first 256k of the Denjin Makai/Godzilla COPX-D2.
> Seibu Cup Soccer uses a COPX-D1 and the rom was dumped. When you compare it with the
> Denjin Makai/Godzilla COPX-D2 it is identical, except the last bytes at 3FFC-3FFF and
>
> 7FFC-7FFF, they are filled with $FF in the Denjin Makai/Godzilla COPX-D2 and $00 in
> Seibu Cup Soccer COPX-D1.
> Legionnaire uses a COPX-D1, but it is not dumped. Can it use the Seibu Cup Soccer
> COPX-D1 ?
> Heated Barrel uses a COPX-D2, but it is not dumped. Can it use the Denjin Makai
> COPX-D2 ?
>
>
> M*A*S*H
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| Kale |
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Il Sindaco
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Re: COPX question?
[Re: TheGuru]
#242742 - 01/05/11 05:21 PM
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> The key to that ROM is knowing what its for and how to use it. Kale seems to be doing
> a good job of figuring that out so just wait :-)
>
For what I'm been told, first boss in Raiden 2 goes nuts if you remove that ROM from the original PCB. Apparently the boss does use a completely unemulated macro command, so that might be it.
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| Kale |
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Il Sindaco
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Re: Kale WIP (Raiden II + others)
[Re: Hibo]
#242743 - 01/05/11 05:32 PM
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> I remember talks relating "Dallas" with Raiden II.Especially in old www.mame.net
> forums.I'm sure about that.I remember something like :"The chip dies when you try to
> read it.Thats why I'm in no good mood to experiment it on my precious Raiden board"
> If you say so than there is no problem for me.Maybe they were people who started
> false rumours about it.
That's not entirely wrong, there's really a suicide battery but on Zero Team PCBs, not on Raiden 2/DX.
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Re: COPX question?
[Re: Kale]
#242764 - 01/05/11 08:30 PM
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it's posible to send this ASIC to dr.decapitator.. to open that evil chip and snap best posible magnification photos
then sit down and analyze... what's all these macros and how all that stuff work
once and for all?
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Re: COPX question?
[Re: xw0lf]
#243034 - 01/08/11 12:50 AM
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> it's posible to send this ASIC to dr.decapitator.. to open that evil chip and snap
> best posible magnification photos
>
> then sit down and analyze... what's all these macros and how all that stuff work
>
> once and for all?
For those interested in the idea of decapping and magnifying to reconstruct gate layouts, this story will be of interest.
"A team of three people—Greg James, Barry Silverman, and Brian Silverman—accumulated a bunch of 6502 chips, applied sulfuric acid to them to strip the casing and expose the actual chips, used a high-resolution photomicroscope to scan the chips, applied computer graphics techniques to build a vector representation of the chip, and finally derived from the vector form what amounts to the circuit diagram of the chip: a list of all 3,510 transistors with inputs, outputs, and what they're connected to. Combining that with a fairly generic (and, as these things go, trivial) “transistor circuit” simulator written in JavaScript and some HTML5 goodness, they created an animated 6502 web page that lets you watch the voltages race around the chip as it executes. For more, see their web site visual6502.org. "
And they say they're looking for hardware.
"We're always on the lookout for interesting classic hardware to study, especially rare hardware in danger of being lost or hardware that no longer works. Broken circuit boards and damaged chips are perfect for our methods which, ironically, involve completely and utterly destroying things in order to preserve them. We create accurate digital models of hardware - models that function exactly like the real thing - and by sacrificing just one single artifact, can create a digital model that will live on long after the last of the original hardware is gone."
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| gp-lee |
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I will send my pcbs to GURU ;)
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Zeroteam Repair memory dumped?
[Re: TheGuru]
#243048 - 01/08/11 05:35 AM
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when Zeroteam battery is discharged and Ram is erased..
Using repair memory... PCB can be fixed and work.
This memory is different with battery-free Roms.. Only repair memory..the PCB do not work.
Is this repair memory dumped? Do you need this memory?
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| TheGuru |
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MAMEDev Dumper
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Re: Zeroteam Repair memory dumped?
[Re: gp-lee]
#243057 - 01/08/11 08:21 AM
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> when Zeroteam battery is discharged and Ram is erased..
> Using repair memory... PCB can be fixed and work.
>
> This memory is different with battery-free Roms.. Only repair memory..the PCB do not
> work.
>
> Is this repair memory dumped? Do you need this memory?
I think the 'repair memory' you refer to is dumped and available at the 'Dead Battery Society' page on www.arcadecollecting.com
or do you mean something different?
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| gp-lee |
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I will send my pcbs to GURU ;)
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Re: Zeroteam Repair memory dumped?
[Re: TheGuru]
#243066 - 01/08/11 10:05 AM
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Yes, they are different..
Arcadecollecting's ztx.zip rom is same with MAME Zeroteam set3..
and ztx file is batter-free rom.. not need battery for PCB working
These repair roms are 4 eproms.. U23 U24 U25 U26
very similar with ztx roms..
but CRC is different any other MAME rom set...
and with just these roms. the PCB does not work..
When Zeroteam's battery is discharged.. Ram is erased and PCB does not work..
For repair...
replace new working battery and replace U23 U24 U25 U26 roms than 4 repair memories...
And PCB's power on about 1min..
with just these repair roms..The PCB do not work...
(but ztx' PCB is working and battery is needless)
after shut down PCB's power..
remove 4 repair memories.. U23 U24 U25 U26..
then..
insert 4 Original battery need roms..
now PCB is working..
I think this memories write erased RAM..
maybe 4 repair memories have RAM's contents..
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| Kale |
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Il Sindaco
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Re: Kale WIP (Raiden II + others)
[Re: R. Belmont]
#243075 - 01/08/11 03:00 PM
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| TheGuru |
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MAMEDev Dumper
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Re: Zeroteam Repair memory dumped?
[Re: gp-lee]
#243083 - 01/08/11 04:12 PM
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> Yes, they are different..
ok. if you have them send them my way :-)
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Re: Kale WIP (Raiden II + others)
[Re: Kale]
#243097 - 01/08/11 06:48 PM
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| Sune |
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Connected
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Re: Kale WIP (Raiden II + others)
[Re: Kale]
#243124 - 01/08/11 09:03 PM
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| gp-lee |
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I will send my pcbs to GURU ;)
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Re: Zeroteam Repair memory dumped?
[Re: TheGuru]
#243192 - 01/09/11 01:19 PM
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Yes, I will send 4 eproms to you via airmail post
when fixing is completed.. a following message will be displayed..
"SEI251 SETUP IS COMPLETED"
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: Zeroteam Repair memory dumped?
[Re: gp-lee]
#243202 - 01/09/11 04:14 PM
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> Yes, I will send 4 eproms to you via airmail post
>
> when fixing is completed.. a following message will be displayed..
>
> "SEI251 SETUP IS COMPLETED"
MAMEdev has those ROMs that display that message already. There is no need to send them to Guru and doing so will not help Kale or the emulation to get any better.
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| TheGuru |
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MAMEDev Dumper
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Re: Zeroteam Repair memory dumped?
[Re: R. Belmont]
#243472 - 01/12/11 09:15 AM
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> > Yes, I will send 4 eproms to you via airmail post
> >
> > when fixing is completed.. a following message will be displayed..
> >
> > "SEI251 SETUP IS COMPLETED"
>
> MAMEdev has those ROMs that display that message already. There is no need to send
> them to Guru and doing so will not help Kale or the emulation to get any better.
yeah I PM'd him and said dont send just after they mysteriously appeared out of thin air a couple of days ago. hmmmm
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Kale WIP (Raiden II + others)
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