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Questions about Supermodel code found in Ville Linde site
#243743 - 01/16/11 05:50 AM
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Hello guys, don't know if you have seen that but i found something that looks like the supermodel (model 3 emulator) source code at here: http://vlinde.mameworld.info/wip.html (supermodel.zip), now the question, is that a part of the mame source code (to use with model 3) or its the real emulator? if is the real emulator, its possible to compile it? I tried to compile it in Visual C++ but it gives a lots of errors and don't compile.
If is possible to compile it, anyone can help me to do this?
Thanks
PS: Sorry if the post has to many english errors, english its not my first language.
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Re: Questions about Supermodel code found in Ville Linde site
[Re: Soniccd123]
#243760 - 01/16/11 12:01 PM
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> Hello guys, don't know if you have seen that but i found something that looks like
> the supermodel (model 3 emulator) source code at here:
> http://vlinde.mameworld.info/wip.html (supermodel.zip), now the question, is that a
> part of the mame source code (to use with model 3) or its the real emulator? if is
> the real emulator, its possible to compile it? I tried to compile it in Visual C++
> but it gives a lots of errors and don't compile.
> If is possible to compile it, anyone can help me to do this?
>
> Thanks
>
> PS: Sorry if the post has to many english errors, english its not my first language.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I heard an unsubstantiated rumor that one of the mame devs will be resurrecting the project, so perhaps that is what that pertains to. We'll have to wait and see.
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Re: Questions about Supermodel code found in Ville Linde site
[Re: Outrun2006]
#243763 - 01/16/11 03:03 PM
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AFAIK Bart T. is not a mamedev.
Netherless, it's a good thing that someone try to finish the work of Ville Linde on Supermodel.
Wait and see, as you said
Cheers
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| Cable |
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retro gamer
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Re: Questions about Supermodel code found in Ville Linde site
[Re: Sonic]
#243767 - 01/16/11 04:28 PM
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> AFAIK Bart T. is not a mamedev.
> Netherless, it's a good thing that someone try to finish the work of Ville Linde on
> Supermodel.
>
> Wait and see, as you said
>
> Cheers
I dont know if this guy is working on a new version or not but he was one of the original devs working on supermodel. The only people i know that are working on model 3 emulation are the Mame and Demul guys
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Re: Questions about Supermodel code found in Ville Linde site
[Re: Soniccd123]
#243803 - 01/16/11 09:55 PM
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The entire time we were releasing Supermodel WIP updates, a period which spanned a few years IIRC, the code was publicly accessible at Sourceforge. It was a classic case of security-through-obscurity and I knew nobody would ever catch on when I proposed it 
The file Ville has posted appears to be the final snapshot of the original Supermodel code base from about 4 years ago. I haven't yet gotten in touch with him, so I don't know what his plans wrt Model 3 emulation are, but I started working on a complete re-write of my own the day after Christmas. I'm really busy and haven't written any code for nearly 5 years (and haven't touched Supermodel for about as long) but I'm happy with how it's coming along (see snapshots below). Initial results indicate that the new GL engine, which makes extensive use of VBOs and shaders, is substantially faster than the old one.
The code you see at Ville's site runs quite decently on modern hardware, even in GL mode. I fired up an old build of Supermodel I had lying around over winter break on a desktop (the first time I had tried it in 4+ years) and was surprised to find that Scud Race was very playable.
Compiling it shouldn't be too difficult. I used to use GNU Make and MSVC in command line mode (Visual Studio includes a vcvars32.bat file to set up the environment). If you insist on using the IDE, it shouldn't be any harder. Either way, you'll have to mess around with header file paths and libraries, as a lot of that stuff has changed with newer versions of the compiler and DirectX.
The biggest problem you'll likely have is with all the quirky "debug" code. Supermodel was a very active project up until the very end and so things would frequently be commented out between different builds and forgotten, only to be re-enabled again a little while later. There is also probably a bunch of debugging "instrumentation" (logging, printouts, etc.) that would need to be disabled by hand in order to get playable frame rates.
Edited by Bart Trzynadlowski (01/16/11 10:05 PM)
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Bart
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Re: Questions about Supermodel code found in Ville Linde site
[Re: Bart T.]
#243812 - 01/16/11 10:59 PM
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Very promising work indeed and thank you for sharing your work with the emulation community.
I have two questions :
- why your pics are shown in a Model 3 scene viewer ? Does this mean that you actual work is focus on the 3D renderer only and not on the entire model 3 board ?
- all the emu authors of model 3 emulator show scud race game. Why choosing this one in particular ? It is not protected or there is another reason ?
And finaly, do you have plans to release something to the public in the future or it is only for you personal programming pleasure ?
TIA for the reply
Cheers
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Re: Questions about Supermodel code found in Ville Linde site
[Re: Bart T.]
#243814 - 01/16/11 11:18 PM
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Wow this is more great news for us Model 3 fans. Between mame demul and this supermodel rework we are definately heading in the right direction. Good luck
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Re: Questions about Supermodel code found in Ville Linde site
[Re: Sonic]
#243817 - 01/16/11 11:29 PM
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Re: your first question:
It makes sense to develop the renderer first because it's the most vital component (apart from the PowerPC). The rest is just tedious glue code, IMHO. Perhaps more importantly, I find that having the Real3D emulation usable in a standalone form facilitates easier experimentation and prototyping. What I basically do is fire up Scud Race in the old Supermodel, play it until interesting things appear on the screen (namely, translucent polygons, repeating textures, seldom-used texture formats, and lighting effects), things that are tricky to shoe-horn into the OpenGL rendering pipeline, and then dump all the video RAM into files.
I can then load up these files to render the display as it was at the time the dump was made. Simply rendering the frame over and over again even gives me a rough idea of how well the engine is performing. The Real3D is nice in that all 3D graphics are built up in a hierarchical database structure in its VRAM, which makes it very conducive to this sort of development approach.
Re: the second question:
I think everyone likes playing around with Scud Race because it's basically _the_ reason for emulating Model 3. It's also a relatively "well-behaved" game in that it's not too hard to get up and running. The first game Supermodel ever ran was Lost World, followed next by Scud Race, I think.
Additionally, it just so happens that most of my Model 3 ROMs are on a computer in Nevada. The only complete dump I had available that Supermodel could run was Scud Race. The new, properly named ROM sets that MAME uses were not compatible out-of-the-box with the old Supermodel, so I didn't bother with anything else.
Right now, I'm working on hooking up Supermodel's old PowerPC interpreter, which ought to be good enough to get several games running. Once I hit that point, I'll release an initial version. I hope that I eventually have time to write a dynamic recompiler of my own (I had started playing around with some ideas back in the day and would like to return to that). It will be open source, of course, and should be readily usable on Windows, UNIX, and MacOS (I'm developing on Linux and Windows).
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Bart
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Re: Questions about Supermodel code found in Ville Linde site
[Re: Bart T.]
#243822 - 01/17/11 12:16 AM
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Thank you Bart for your detailed reply.
It's appreciated.
May be you can keep us informed of your last develoment by updates at your personal home page @trzy.org ?
Bye
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Re: Questions about Supermodel code found in Ville Linde site
[Re: Sonic]
#243823 - 01/17/11 12:41 AM
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I'll consider it. I just don't think WIP updates would be of much interest to anyone, though. For the next month at least, it'll just be boring technical stuff that has already been covered once before in MAME and the original Supermodel.
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Bart
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Re: Questions about Supermodel code found in Ville Linde site
[Re: Bart T.]
#243826 - 01/17/11 01:50 AM
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Bart. There honestly are no words to describe my appreciation for picking up this project where Ville have left off. Seriously, I was going to type up a 736,216,738,486 word post thanking you and explaining on why I love Model 3 and why I appreciate this era of Sega greatness, but it would take like a year to get everything out.
Bart trust me when I say you are one of our heroes. There aren't enough "thank yous" in the world.
OK I just have one request Bart. Can you please incorporate force feed support for steering wheels?
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They're always after me Lucky ROMS!
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Re: Questions about Supermodel code found in Ville Linde site
[Re: Bart T.]
#243836 - 01/17/11 07:17 AM
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> The entire time we were releasing Supermodel WIP updates, a period which spanned a
> few years IIRC, the code was publicly accessible at Sourceforge. It was a classic
> case of security-through-obscurity and I knew nobody would ever catch on when I
> proposed it.
Hi Bart!
Yeah, I don't think that tactic will fly anymore. You're welcome to give it a try, tho'... 
- Stiletto
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You have Sega issues (nt)
[Re: Outrun2006]
#243848 - 01/17/11 04:03 PM
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| Naoki |
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Re: Questions about Supermodel code found in Ville Linde site
[Re: Outrun2006]
#243851 - 01/17/11 04:50 PM
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OK I just have one request Bart. Can you please incorporate force feed support for steering wheels?
I second that.... PLEASE MAKE IT WORK WITH THE LOGITECH FORMULAR FORCE!!!....*cough cough*....too many emulators I have that support FFB but not my wheel... e.e
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On a quest for Digital 573 and Dancing Stage EuroMix 2
By gods I've found it!
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Re: You have Sega issues (nt)
[Re: Smitdogg]
#243853 - 01/17/11 05:20 PM
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Re: You have Sega issues (nt)
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Hehe, not really. I just like those two M3 games in particular(Scud Race and Daytona 2) a LOT. Not really that big a Sega fan TBH.
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| MASH |
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MASH
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Force Feedback?
[Re: Naoki]
#243856 - 01/17/11 07:06 PM
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> OK I just have one request Bart. Can you please incorporate force feed support for
> steering wheels?
>
> I second that.... PLEASE MAKE IT WORK WITH THE LOGITECH FORMULAR FORCE!!!....*cough
> cough*....too many emulators I have that support FFB but not my wheel... e.e
Force Feedback? Is that when you stick a fork in the toaster.
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| AeroCityMayor |
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Entity formerly known as alien_mame
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Re: Force Feedback?
[Re: MASH]
#243859 - 01/17/11 07:26 PM
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>
> Force Feedback? Is that when you stick a fork in the toaster.
Either that, or, when you're made to sit in a room and listen to what people think of your first 6 months in your new job 
Cheers,
Ralph.
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Coherance of posts inversely proportional to Foster's consumption!!!
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: You have Sega issues (nt)
[Re: Outrun2006]
#243880 - 01/18/11 12:39 AM
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> Re: You have Sega issues (nt)
> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>
> Hehe, not really. I just like those two M3 games in particular(Scud Race and Daytona
> 2) a LOT. Not really that big a Sega fan TBH.
You don't like Outrun?
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Re: You have Sega issues (nt)
[Re: R. Belmont]
#243907 - 01/18/11 03:28 PM
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> > Re: You have Sega issues (nt)
> > @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
> >
> > Hehe, not really. I just like those two M3 games in particular(Scud Race and
> Daytona
> > 2) a LOT. Not really that big a Sega fan TBH.
>
> You don't like Outrun?
Well, we were referring to Model 3 games Here is an honest to God list of all games made by Sega that I really like and truly enjoy playing.
1)Daytona USA, which you can see me play here in these two videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfO_EPKIBcU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67hWuwR-IY0
2)Sega Rally Championship
3)Daytona USA 2
4)Super GT/Scud Race
5)F-Zero GX(Technically not a SEGA game per se, but was developed by them and I'll be damn if Sega fans allow Nintendo to take credit for how well this game came out, seeing as how they had jackshit to do with the actual coding of it)
6)OutRun 2/OutRun 2006(probably my favorite Sega game of all time)
7)Outrun 1986
 Outrunners
9)Golden Axe series
10)The Ninja/Ninja Princess
11)Phantasy Star IV
12)Virtua Fighter IV PS2 version
13)Indy 500
14)Manx TT
That's pretty much it. Never really cared for any Sonics, Crazy Taxi's, etc. I DO have a friend however who goes gaga for anything Sega. He has something like 5000 ORIGINAL sega games across all Sega consoles. He's a fanatic.
I am just very dismayed and bitter over the direction this company has taken over the last 10 years. They went from making orginal and great classics, to making shit. Toshihiro Nagoshi-san, someone I used to IDOLIZE back in the day, was a racing game making GOD!!!!! Now he's a wanna be black pimp making Yakuza games and a new horrible looking Gears of War ripoff clone. The guy is practically dead to me now. And Yu Suzuki....God only knows what the hell he's up to now.
I just don't have a particular favorite developer. Namco and Capcom spring to mind as good ones. Maybe Square Enix for the masterpiece that is Chrono Trigger.
Edited by Outrun2006 (01/18/11 03:34 PM)
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Re: You have Sega issues (nt)
[Re: Outrun2006]
#243909 - 01/18/11 04:30 PM
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Yu Suzuki interview
[Re: VirtuaIceMan]
#243945 - 01/19/11 07:29 AM
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> > And Yu Suzuki....God only knows what the hell he's up to now.
>
> http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3182648
I find this pretty funny:
YS: There's one more thing that is different about game development now compared to back then. Then there was a programming language called C. Back then if you were programming in C, it didn't work because it was too slow.
And this is a good part:
How do you feel about games now that developers can focus more on building the game world and game mechanics...?
YS: ...The problem is that the industry focuses too much on the extravagance of the graphics....We should focus our creativity on making interesting rules in a game instead of focusing on the visuals
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Consider it high comedy....sincere tragedy....whatever...don't take it personally.
The Culture
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| R. Belmont |
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Re: Yu Suzuki interview
[Re: mogli]
#243957 - 01/19/11 05:48 PM
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> And this is a good part:
>
> How do you feel about games now that developers can focus more on building the game
> world and game mechanics...?
>
> YS: ...The problem is that the industry focuses too much on the extravagance of the
> graphics....We should focus our creativity on making interesting rules in a game
> instead of focusing on the visuals
What's amusing about that is elsewhere in the interview he takes credit for driving the evolution of Sega hardware to more power and better graphics.
I'd totally play a Kinect-ified PsyPhi if the Kinect didn't want me to stand in the middle of my sofa though (stupid minimum distance requirements).
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: Questions about Supermodel code found in Ville Linde site
[Re: Naoki]
#243958 - 01/19/11 05:49 PM
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> OK I just have one request Bart. Can you please incorporate force feed support for
> steering wheels?
>
> I second that.... PLEASE MAKE IT WORK WITH THE LOGITECH FORMULAR FORCE!!!....*cough
> cough*....too many emulators I have that support FFB but not my wheel... e.e
And now you understand why MAMEdev generally refuses to touch FFB - it's like MS-DOS era sound cards all over again where you program each one differently.
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Re: Questions about Supermodel code found in Ville Linde site
[Re: R. Belmont]
#243961 - 01/19/11 06:27 PM
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> And now you understand why MAMEdev generally refuses to touch FFB - it's like MS-DOS
> era sound cards all over again where you program each one differently.
El Semi seems to have got it right in M2, worked with all 3 I threw at it, all different makes and eras.
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http://www.youtube.com/retrorepair
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: Questions about Supermodel code found in Ville Linde site
[Re: RetroRepair]
#243970 - 01/19/11 08:53 PM
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> > And now you understand why MAMEdev generally refuses to touch FFB - it's like
> MS-DOS
> > era sound cards all over again where you program each one differently.
>
> El Semi seems to have got it right in M2, worked with all 3 I threw at it, all
> different makes and eras.
It doesn't work for Naoki's device.
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| Naoki |
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Re: Questions about Supermodel code found in Ville Linde site
[Re: R. Belmont]
#243973 - 01/19/11 10:20 PM
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Or for other users of that model..
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On a quest for Digital 573 and Dancing Stage EuroMix 2
By gods I've found it!
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Re: Questions about Supermodel code found in Ville Linde site
[Re: Naoki]
#244012 - 01/20/11 02:55 PM
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> Or for other users of that model..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Naoki is this the wheel that you own?
If so, then I hate to say it bro, but that is an extremely outdated wheel. It was released in August of 2000!, and was designed to work with windows 98 and from what I understand doesn't jive too well with Windows Vista or 7 apps. Naoki please PLEASE consider investing in another more updated wheel dude. The Logitech DFGT or G25 are fantastic for the money! They are much better models and if you want to spend a little more then perhaps wait for the newer Thrustmaster GT wheel.
I think it is a bit unfair to imply that just because El Semi's Model 2 emu doesn't work with EVERY SINGLE FFB wheels out there that it wasn't worth his time to implement it into the emu. The M2 emu has a very high compatibility rate for FFB wheel support. I for one, have thrown 3 three ffb wheels at Daytona....The ECCI, The Happ Controls, and the Frex FFB wheel....none of which belong to either the Logitech or Fanatec brand, and they have all worked no problems. I know many other users who have no problems as well, and who appreciate having FFB in the M2 emu. It seriously adds a SIGNIFICANT amount of enjoyment to playing Daytona and Sega Rally. I personally would not be playing it no where near as much as I have been if it was missing FFB, and El Semi has my sincere gratitude for putting it in.
I understand that putting FFB into MAME is quite a challenge and I know it's something that would be a burden to you guys so it's all good. But for stand alone emus I don't think it's an unfair request. I'm not saying FFB is something Bart T should put at the top of his priorities, but once he gets all the core dirty work out of the way, if he can somehow find time to implement it into Super Model, a lot of people including myself will be eternally grateful. Hell, I am already eternally grateful he is even taking on the project.
Go Bart! You rock dude!!!
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Re: Questions about Supermodel code found in Ville Linde site
[Re: Outrun2006]
#244013 - 01/20/11 03:15 PM
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Quote:
I think it is a bit unfair to imply that just because El Semi's Model 2 emu doesn't work with EVERY SINGLE FFB wheels out there that it wasn't worth his time to implement it into the emu. The M2 emu has a very high compatibility rate for FFB wheel support.
This.
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| R. Belmont |
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Re: Questions about Supermodel code found in Ville Linde site
[Re: RetroRepair]
#244015 - 01/20/11 04:38 PM
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> I think it is a bit unfair to imply that just because El Semi's Model 2 emu doesn't
> work with EVERY SINGLE FFB wheels out there that it wasn't worth his time to
> implement it into the emu. The M2 emu has a very high compatibility rate for FFB
> wheel support.
>
> This.
Stand down! Nobody was trying to get in the way of your sucking the bejeezus out of ElSemi's cock. I was simply stating that FFB requires device-specific programming and therefore no emulator can support all wheels.
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| Naoki |
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Re: Questions about Supermodel code found in Ville Linde site
[Re: Outrun2006]
#244023 - 01/20/11 06:32 PM
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That image isn't even close to it. Yes it's old, but I got it as a christmas present. I don't want it ending up like my analogue joystick i also got for christmas, staying in it's box with no use.
I never said that it not supporting my wheel was bad, just unfortunate for me. I loe the addition and I think it was a great idea.
Anyway..
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broadening this question
[Re: R. Belmont]
#244024 - 01/20/11 06:41 PM
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beyond cock sucking (that made me laugh that comment did)... can MAME ever hope to include force feedback? It'd need to support so many devices and OSes, could it even be possible?
I guess (total lack of knowledge here) that there could be force feedback calls that the specific ports of MAME could then use to hook into hardware perhaps (e.g. Windows port uses Windows force feedback etc) or maybe an external app to set up force feedback?
Just wondered. I've always hoped one day to play Afterburner with force feedback; there was a version of Final Burn with force feedback in Outrun, but it never made it to Afterburner, and shaking a joystick by hand when I crash just isn't the same!
Edited by VirtuaIceMan (01/20/11 06:41 PM)
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Re: broadening this question
[Re: VirtuaIceMan]
#244031 - 01/20/11 07:23 PM
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: broadening this question
[Re: bdam]
#244033 - 01/20/11 07:39 PM
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> Asked (by you) and answered.
Also, MAME outputs FFB signals for several games now (the same way we output lamps and that sort of thing) so an enhanced MAMEHooker or similar program could drive FFB right now without us lifting a finger.
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Re: broadening this question
[Re: R. Belmont]
#244043 - 01/20/11 09:23 PM
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Are you talking about the games Howard did in 0.137u2 and 0.137u4 or are there others?
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Re: Questions about Supermodel code found in Ville Linde site
[Re: Naoki]
#244050 - 01/20/11 10:24 PM
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What other users? I watch the official Nebula forum, just searched it, and the closest thing I found was someone who was using an old wheel with a a serial-to-usb converter and incorrect drivers.
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| Naoki |
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Re: Questions about Supermodel code found in Ville Linde site
[Re: bdam]
#244054 - 01/20/11 11:08 PM
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I used google to find other users with the same wheel with the same issues.
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| Naoki |
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Reged: 11/10/09
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Re: Questions about Supermodel code found in Ville Linde site
[Re: Naoki]
#244149 - 01/22/11 03:40 AM
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The problem is the Serial interface, which means lower memory and wierd way of FFB....
well, unless someone was a saint for these old things, I'm fucked for FFb...
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Re: Questions about Supermodel code found in Ville Linde site
[Re: Bart T.]
#253624 - 05/03/11 05:31 PM
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Great news ! Why do you have to be so cruel about the Supermodel source being available all along though ?  I'm almost skeptical about that too, because back then I was so stoked about this emulator I probably searched *everywhere* for some kind of leak !
I'm so very happy I decided to check out the MAME front today after years of letting the obsession die ! So many memories in this very thread too, let's party like it's 2006 (with apologies to IceMan )
Edited by Mitaine (05/04/11 10:16 AM)
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| FatTrucker |
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Randomly pressing buttons in hope of success.
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Loc: London UK
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Re: Questions about Supermodel code found in Ville Linde site
[Re: R. Belmont]
#253625 - 05/03/11 06:02 PM
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> > I think it is a bit unfair to imply that just because El Semi's Model 2 emu doesn't
> > work with EVERY SINGLE FFB wheels out there that it wasn't worth his time to
> > implement it into the emu. The M2 emu has a very high compatibility rate for FFB
> > wheel support.
> >
> > This.
>
> Stand down! Nobody was trying to get in the way of your sucking the bejeezus out of
> ElSemi's cock. I was simply stating that FFB requires device-specific programming and
> therefore no emulator can support all wheels.
Would it not make sense to allow Mame to output given values for any games featuring FFB (I'm presuming that actual gameboards use some kind of input/output code to the FFB PCB).
If Mame simply outputs that info surely people can then make their own third party interfaces and/or drivers for different devices they want to use it with that simply sits between mame and their FFB device, reads the output from mame and runs with it. Takes the aggro completely away from Mame as mame won't be dealing with any driver or device specific issues.
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| GatKong |
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Tetris Mason
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Here's the Supermodel code for you:
[Re: Soniccd123]
#253628 - 05/03/11 06:14 PM
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"36-29-38"
(I couldn't resist posting that any longer... it was literally killing me holding back.)
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Re: Questions about Supermodel code found in Ville Linde site
[Re: FatTrucker]
#253632 - 05/03/11 07:08 PM
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Read the whole thread, this is discussed.
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Re: Questions about Supermodel code found in Ville Linde site
[Re: Naoki]
#253641 - 05/03/11 08:06 PM
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> The problem is the Serial interface, which means lower memory and wierd way of
> FFB....
>
>
> well, unless someone was a saint for these old things, I'm fucked for FFb...
What's wrong with the serial interface? If you need direct access to the serial port then you will need to write a driver.
Kevin Eshbach
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Index 
Threaded 
Questions about Supermodel code found in Ville Linde site
Reply
[Re: 
Outrunners
I'm almost skeptical about that too, because back then I was so stoked about this emulator I probably searched *everywhere* for some kind of leak !
