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Names to correct...?
#249117 - 03/17/11 08:49 PM
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Hi,
The descriptions between ( ) in games should be normalized to my opinion :
Sometimes you have (France), sometimes you have (French), Same for (Italy) & (Italian), (Austria) & (Austrian), (Dutch) (German) (German Speech) & (Germany), (Spain) (Spanish) & (Hispanic)...
There are also some (International).. shouldn't these named (World) as all others...?
Or is this really different.?
Sometimes we have (bootleg, description), sometimes we have (description, bootleg) and we even have some (description)(bootleg)... imo, (description, bootleg) should be used for all.
I haven't checked all names, but I can do a full list of naming problems if needed, this will take some time, but i really think that there should be more naming conventions respected for all games descriptions...:
(Country, Description, bootleg) should be used. In the same order of idea and naming convention, (China, bootleg) should be prefered to (Chinese bootleg)...
Tell me what you think about it...
Regards, MAMu_
Edited by MAMu_ (03/17/11 09:57 PM)
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: Names to correct...?
[Re: MAMu_]
#249121 - 03/17/11 09:27 PM
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I think hap is already being enough of a no-fun pedant on this point as it is. Don't encourage him.
See, the one joy left in working on MAME is being able to name rom sets and drivers. If that goes away, I'm out.
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Re: Names to correct...?
[Re: R. Belmont]
#249126 - 03/17/11 10:02 PM
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> I think hap is already being enough of a no-fun pedant on this point as it is. Don't
> encourage him.
K I'll shut up, np.. 
> See, the one joy left in working on MAME is being able to name rom sets and drivers.
> If that goes away, I'm out.
Please don't ^^
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Re: Names to correct...?
[Re: R. Belmont]
#249137 - 03/18/11 12:03 AM
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Nah, I just fix companynames once in a while, I'm not going to normalize gamenames* (and it's way too much work too :P).
*: Except if I'm in a nitpicky mood, then you can see me changing capitals, like Bootleg to bootleg, or Set to set, or Version to version
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Re: Names to correct...?
[Re: MAMu_]
#249169 - 03/18/11 05:41 AM
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> > I think hap is already being enough of a no-fun pedant on this point as it is.
> Don't
> > encourage him.
>
> K I'll shut up, np..
I think you should go through with your plan to fix these issues, or if you are not a coder and can't change the code, then at least document all of the inconsistencies so that someone else can fix them (I volunteer to create the code patches and submit them to mamedev if you can get me the list of inconsistencies to fix).
Normalizing all of the data associated with games is valuable because this information can be used by front ends and other programs to do useful and interesting things; some things are not as practical to do as they could be if the data were better normalized so ... please, if you want to make efforts in this direction don't let anyone discourage you!
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> Normalizing all of the data associated with games is valuable because this
> information can be used by front ends and other programs to do useful and interesting
> things;
you got me  I was looking at all these descriptions in order to have Frontends exploit these informations (displaying country flags over my icons when needed in Emuloader by exemple), already did a few of these flags and found all of these "errors" while checking which flags I still had to do...
> some things are not as practical to do as they could be if the data were
> better normalized so ... please, if you want to make efforts in this direction don't
> let anyone discourage you!
I'll see what i can do then, but I really don't want to get on RB's nerves, he's my god as all the mamedevs or contributors are...
I'll do a list if I can find time, but I have no programming skills at all, and still have to finish next icons pack release, so won't do this before icons.zip is not released...
Then we'll see if someone agrees to modify the source...
Thx for your support on that idea, and please RB, don't be mad at me if I do such and if someone does the modifications...
Regards, MAMu_
Here are a few exemples of the flags I've done so far :
[ATTACHED IMAGE]
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: Names to correct...?
[Re: MAMu_]
#249178 - 03/18/11 06:30 AM
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Listen to Bryan over MAMEdev at your risk.
The *correct* source of country and other data is external data files such as MASH's MAMEinfo and whatever the datafile from arcadehistory that MAWS is rendered from is called.
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Re: Names to correct...?
[Re: R. Belmont]
#249191 - 03/18/11 10:21 AM
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> Listen to Bryan over MAMEdev at your risk.
>
> The *correct* source of country and other data is external data files such as MASH's
> MAMEinfo and whatever the datafile from arcadehistory that MAWS is rendered from is
> called.
OK maybe I'm misunderstanding what MAMu_ is suggesting, because what he's suggesting seems so innocuous to me that I can't understand your response. So something isn't right here and I'd like a better understanding of what it is.
I thought that MAMEu_ was talking about improving the consistency of the naming in the game descriptions that are compiled into the driver sources. These end up in the "description" field of the game_driver structures that are in the static drivers[] array declared in src/emu/driver.h.
The descriptions include some human readable details such as country that MAMEu_ is pointing out isn't always consistent from game to game.
Why wouldn't you want to make the country names in these descriptions consistent? I realize that it's not the most important thing in the world, but surely consistency is better than inconsistency and if MAMEu_ and I were willing to put in the time to tidy these things up, wouldn't mamedev accept the patch? If not, why not?
I think the point you are making is that in general front ends shouldn't be using these descriptions for anything other than displaying to the user as opaque text strings because they are not intended to convey consistent details and the mamedev team is not going to consider it a bug that any particular description is inconsistent. And I can totally understand that but - if someone wanted to go through the effort to make them consistent anyway wouldn't you accept the patch?
Also as an aside, what I was referring to in my previous post when I talked about normalizing data, I'm thinking predominantly about things like controllers, especially the inconsistent way that esoteric controllers like shifters are defined, and also button names which are mostly absent from the source. Not saying that these are pressing issues but if someone wanted to tidy these things up I would hope that mamedev would be open to the idea.
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Re: Names to correct...?
[Re: MAMu_]
#249192 - 03/18/11 10:56 AM
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LOL
>(Dutch) (German) (German Speech) & (Germany)
Dutch ≠ Deutsch (German)
Dutch = from the Netherlands
It's one of the wonders of the English language, plus I blame the country itself for being so strange
Cheers!
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Re: Names to correct...?
[Re: hmmmmmm]
#249193 - 03/18/11 11:29 AM
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Which one to blame? Holland or Germany?
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Re: Names to correct...?
[Re: hap]
#249195 - 03/18/11 01:49 PM
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> then you can see me changing capitals, like
> Bootleg to bootleg, or Set to set, or Version to version
which in my opinion should have been the other way around
or you would need (World)->(world) etc. which is ugly
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Re: Names to correct...?
[Re: hmmmmmm]
#249196 - 03/18/11 02:43 PM
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> LOL
>
> >(Dutch) (German) (German Speech) & (Germany)
>
>
> Dutch ≠ Deutsch (German)
>
> Dutch = from the Netherlands
>
> It's one of the wonders of the English language, plus I blame the country itself for
> being so strange
>
> Cheers!
K, a cannabis leaf flag to do too then
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Re: Names to correct...?
[Re: etabeta]
#249197 - 03/18/11 02:45 PM
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> > then you can see me changing capitals, like
> > Bootleg to bootleg, or Set to set, or Version to version
>
> which in my opinion should have been the other way around
> or you would need (World)->(world) etc. which is ugly
Agreed, Capitals are OK
(World, set 1) or (Set 1) are correct, (World, Set 1), (world, set 1)or (set 1) are not
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: Names to correct...?
[Re: Bryan Ischo]
#249203 - 03/18/11 04:57 PM
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> Why wouldn't you want to make the country names in these descriptions consistent? I
> realize that it's not the most important thing in the world, but surely consistency
> is better than inconsistency and if MAMEu_ and I were willing to put in the time to
> tidy these things up, wouldn't mamedev accept the patch? If not, why not?
There's a certain tension that's been going on since MAME was first released in 1997 wherein a lot of people (primarily the cabinet mafia) want it to be an all-singing all-dancing database of game information and they want all of that information to be Just So.
a) That's not the purpose of MAME. MAME documents the hardware. Many fine websites exist to document the software in exhaustive detail, like system16.com and TAFA and arcadehistory.net.
b) If you ask 5 people what the consistent form of those descriptions should be, you'll get at least 8 answers
c) The game description text are intended to be human-readable, not machine-readable. Humans handle inconsistency fine.
> I think the point you are making is that in general front ends shouldn't be using
> these descriptions for anything other than displaying to the user as opaque text
> strings because they are not intended to convey consistent details and the mamedev
> team is not going to consider it a bug that any particular description is
> inconsistent.
Correct. The text is for the human users. Front ends should not be making policy decisions (e.g. showing flags) based on it.
> And I can totally understand that but - if someone wanted to go through
> the effort to make them consistent anyway wouldn't you accept the patch?
Because making the descriptions machine-readable would then create the expectation that every game added from now on also has a machine-readable description. And since I'm one of very few devs who still adds games regularly, that translates into a direct burden on me. It also sets the precedent that MAME really is a database, not an emulator, and we may as well strip out all that useless code stuff and just put in infinite char8_t arrays.
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Re: Names to correct...?
[Re: R. Belmont]
#249207 - 03/18/11 05:25 PM
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> Correct. The text is for the human users. Front ends should not be making policy
> decisions (e.g. showing flags) based on it.
OK so I totally understand and appreciate where you are coming from.
One follow-up question: for database-like data that's already in MAME and can be argued is part of hardware documentation, would you accept patches for that stuff? As an example, let's consider button names. Many games don't include button names in the driver description within MAME, but many do. Is this considered part of the hardware documentation that MAME would accept enhancements to?
It's not that I'm volunteering to do this - I have no idea what the real button names are for all of these games - it's mostly just an academic question to help solidify my understanding of mamedev policies.
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Re: Names to correct...?
[Re: R. Belmont]
#249210 - 03/18/11 05:58 PM
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> Correct. The text is for the human users. Front ends should not be making policy
> decisions (e.g. showing flags) based on it.
Don't understand your point... I do icons for MAME frontends or UI builds since 1997, and I never thought you were against these... If I decided to add flags to each icons that need it, would you be against it..? I don't think so... So if i do the flags icons in order to be displaid over the already done icon, I'm not asking MAMEUI to display these, or forcing any mameui dev to use these... (I mean, vanilla MAME never used my icons, and I've never asked so, np)
But if some frontends coders want to display my icons, and the flags I'm doing to distinguish the various clones icons with the country that is specified, when it is, written in the ()... Would that be bad seen by mamedevs...?
Actually Ciro, from Emuloader, is trying to add these flags over my icons in Emuloader, and I've already finished all of them...
Would Ciro and I became plague infected ppl to mamedevs just by adding what I consider as a nice visual addition to a frontend.. (and not to MAME) ?
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: Names to correct...?
[Re: Bryan Ischo]
#249211 - 03/18/11 06:00 PM
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> One follow-up question: for database-like data that's already in MAME and can be
> argued is part of hardware documentation, would you accept patches for that stuff? As
> an example, let's consider button names. Many games don't include button names in the
> driver description within MAME, but many do. Is this considered part of the hardware
> documentation that MAME would accept enhancements to?
I'm fine with button names. They're human-readable, they have no special presentation issues, go for it.
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| R. Belmont |
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Re: Names to correct...?
[Re: MAMu_]
#249212 - 03/18/11 06:01 PM
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I'm fine with icons and flags and whatever (and I think you do a terrific job on them). I just don't want front ends relying on the specific wording of game descriptions in MAME to determine when to use them.
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Re: Names to correct...?
[Re: R. Belmont]
#249213 - 03/18/11 06:11 PM
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> I'm fine with icons and flags and whatever (and I think you do a terrific job on
> them). I just don't want front ends relying on the specific wording of game
> descriptions in MAME to determine when to use them.
Except from what is described between the (), I don't see how to display the flags... :/
Any idea...?
(from an external already existing data file, ie history.dat or such, if these countries infos are in...)
PS: thx for the terrific job I can breath again I was already thinking to quit depending on your answer, no kidding, I really don't want mamedevs to be against me or my icons, and if you would have, then I would have stop immediately my icons, by respect to mamedevs and to MAME.
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| Fever |
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Re: Names to correct...?
[Re: hmmmmmm]
#249238 - 03/18/11 11:48 PM
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> LOL
>
> >(Dutch) (German) (German Speech) & (Germany)
>
>
> Dutch ≠ Deutsch (German)
>
> Dutch = from the Netherlands
>
> It's one of the wonders of the English language, plus I blame the country itself for
> being so strange
Yeah, they are called 'The Dutch' but the country is called 'The Netherlands' and everyone keeps calling it 'Holland' even though Holland is just the main province (bit like Iran being called Persia, I suppose) - what an identity crisis! No wonder they're so into their green!  <- a Dutchy, Yesterday
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| Fever |
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Reformed Sk3n3 Quitter
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Re: Names to correct...?
[Re: R. Belmont]
#249239 - 03/18/11 11:55 PM
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> Because making the descriptions machine-readable would then create the expectation
> that every game added from now on also has a machine-readable description. And since
> I'm one of very few devs who still adds games regularly, that translates into a
> direct burden on me.
I'm not sure that quite follows - I don't really see why you couldn't go on naming stuff however the heck you want and then rely on people like MAMu, hap, Stephh et al to come along and tidy it up afterwards - delegate, man!
Also how comes these inconsistencies in the names are fine, yet the actual 8.3 set names change all the time as if directed by the enigmatic master plans of an asperger's sufferer with too much time on his hands?
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Re: Names to correct...?
[Re: R. Belmont]
#249241 - 03/19/11 12:07 AM
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> I'm fine with icons and flags and whatever (and I think you do a terrific job on
> them). I just don't want front ends relying on the specific wording of game
> descriptions in MAME to determine when to use them.
I agree. If people want meta data about the games for front-ends, it should probably be added to the listxml output from MAME. How do you feel about adding attributes for "language" and/or "locale" and/or "region", or something along those lines?
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| R. Belmont |
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Re: Names to correct...?
[Re: Fever]
#249245 - 03/19/11 12:42 AM
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> I'm not sure that quite follows - I don't really see why you couldn't go on naming
> stuff however the heck you want and then rely on people like MAMu, hap, Stephh et al
> to come along and tidy it up afterwards - delegate, man!
People "cleaning up" my submissions implies I did them wrong in the first place. (And the odds of stephh touching Naomi are about the same as Twisty unbanning Tom Riddle).
> Also how comes these inconsistencies in the names are fine, yet the actual 8.3 set
> names change all the time?
1) Because the "rules" for 8.3 set names are not always entirely clear, but Brian Troha has more or less become the Final Arbiter of them.
2) Because Japanese sets are often dumped first, and then everything has to be re-parented each time there's a dump of a new region.
3) Because it's really fun to make Neo Geo players download new roms.
4) Because there are rules (poorly understood or not) for the 8.3 setnames and there are no rules for the human-readable names given that they're meant solely to be human-readable.
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| R. Belmont |
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Re: Names to correct...?
[Re: krick]
#249246 - 03/19/11 12:44 AM
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> I agree. If people want meta data about the games for front-ends, it should probably
> be added to the listxml output from MAME. How do you feel about adding attributes for
> "language" and/or "locale" and/or "region", or something along those lines?
I don't think MAME is the proper carrier of that information. I think the many and varied external dat files can do a better job.
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Re: Names to correct...?
[Re: R. Belmont]
#249269 - 03/19/11 02:55 AM
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> 1) Because the "rules" for 8.3 set names are not always entirely clear, but Brian
> Troha has more or less become the Final Arbiter of them.
> 2) Because Japanese sets are often dumped first, and then everything has to be
> re-parented each time there's a dump of a new region.
> 3) Because it's really fun to make Neo Geo players download new roms.
> 4) Because there are rules (poorly understood or not) for the 8.3 setnames and there
> are no rules for the human-readable names given that they're meant solely to be
> human-readable.
I'm betting money on the supremacy of number 3. RB with whip in hand!
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Consider it high comedy....sincere tragedy....whatever...don't take it personally.
The Culture
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Re: Names to correct...?
[Re: R. Belmont]
#249275 - 03/19/11 04:02 AM
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> 3) Because it's really fun to make Neo Geo players download new roms.
Excellent ^^
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Re: Names to correct...?
[Re: Fever]
#249332 - 03/19/11 11:24 AM
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> Also how comes these inconsistencies in the names are fine, yet the actual 8.3 set
> names change all the time as if directed by the enigmatic master plans of an
> asperger's sufferer with too much time on his hands?
that's not true. it happens more often that the content of a set got move to a different set (e.g. if a more recent version becomes parent, then the former parent gets a new name and the new file inherits the parent name)
a lot of name changes have happened when Aaron removed the 8.3 limitation for clone sets: it's easier to remember that the US version of "gamename" is "gamenameu" than the formerly used "gamenamu", "gamenmeu", "gamnamu" or "gmenameu" (the latter were necessary to stay in the 8 chars limit, of course)
and a few more renaming still happen from time to time, but I would not say 'all the time' as you did
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Re: Names to correct...?
[Re: krick]
#249333 - 03/19/11 11:30 AM
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I strongly disagree in adding to xml output languages or country settings: they belong more to the software side than to the hardware one, like the rest of the xml content.
I've followed same approach in MESS softlists: languages might appear in the game description if it's the only difference between two games, but otherwise users should refer to external dats for handling language identifications
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Re: Names to correct...?
[Re: hap]
#249342 - 03/19/11 12:38 PM
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> Nah, I just fix companynames once in a while, I'm not going to normalize gamenames*
> (and it's way too much work too :P).
>
> *: Except if I'm in a nitpicky mood, then you can see me changing capitals, like
> Bootleg to bootleg, or Set to set, or Version to version
mnumitg Magic Number (Italian Gambling Game, Ver 1.5)
te0144 Puzzle Bobble (Italian Gambling Game)
All games in the peplus.c driver - the company listed as "IGT - International Gaming Technology" should be "International Game Technology", or simply IGT as they're more commonly known as (think SNK vs. "Shin Nihon Kikaku").
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Re: Names to correct...?
[Re: Bryan Ischo]
#249344 - 03/19/11 01:05 PM
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> > Correct. The text is for the human users. Front ends should not be making policy
> > decisions (e.g. showing flags) based on it.
>
> OK so I totally understand and appreciate where you are coming from.
>
> One follow-up question: for database-like data that's already in MAME and can be
> argued is part of hardware documentation, would you accept patches for that stuff? As
> an example, let's consider button names. Many games don't include button names in the
> driver description within MAME, but many do. Is this considered part of the hardware
> documentation that MAME would accept enhancements to?
>
> It's not that I'm volunteering to do this - I have no idea what the real button names
> are for all of these games - it's mostly just an academic question to help solidify
> my understanding of mamedev policies.
A lot of games would benefit having actual button names, for example the Mortal Kombat series. It's OK to leave simple games like Space Invaders which only have 'P1/2 Button n' and Left/Right/Start, but on more complex games it can be an annoyance when setting up the control panel, especially if the games don't actually use them in sequential order. With the Mortal Kombat example, it's much easier mapping buttons named High/Low Punch, High/Low Kick and Block (and Run in MK3 and later) than trying to map 'P1 Button 1' and the rest through trial and error. I can't imagine how it would have been like if the PC drivers in MESS simply had 'Keyboard button 1...101' listed in there!
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Re: Names to correct...?
[Re: Heihachi_73]
#249357 - 03/19/11 04:55 PM
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your parallel with MESS makes no sense: the same arcade hardware can run different games in which buttons has different usage. on a keyboard, A is A, B is B, etc.
or are you suggesting we should label 2,4,6,8 on computer keypads as Down, Left, Right and Up because a lot of computer games use those keys to move the main character?
as with most software-related details, you should rely on external dats not on the MAME source because the hardware does not care how the buttons are used by the game...
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Re: Names to correct...?
[Re: Heihachi_73]
#249364 - 03/19/11 06:39 PM
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> A lot of games would benefit having actual button names, for example the Mortal
> Kombat series. It's OK to leave simple games like Space Invaders which only have
> 'P1/2 Button n' and Left/Right/Start, but on more complex games it can be an
> annoyance when setting up the control panel, especially if the games don't actually
> use them in sequential order. With the Mortal Kombat example, it's much easier
> mapping buttons named High/Low Punch, High/Low Kick and Block (and Run in MK3 and
> later) than trying to map 'P1 Button 1' and the rest through trial and error. I can't
> imagine how it would have been like if the PC drivers in MESS simply had 'Keyboard
> button 1...101' listed in there!
I believe I brought up button naming a long time ago and it was shot down because there are problems when multiple games in a driver share the same button map but use them for different purposes. i.e. multiple games on the same hardware. I recall someone saying that to add button descriptions that are different for each game within a driver, they'd have to duplicate the button code or something, causing exe bloat. Does any of this ring a bell?
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Re: Names to correct...?
[Re: etabeta]
#249369 - 03/19/11 07:35 PM
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> as with most software-related details, you should rely on external dats not on the
> MAME source because the hardware does not care how the buttons are used by the
> game...
MAME presents an in-game UI for mapping controls and that works best if there are descriptive names for the game controls in MAME. Either take the MAME UI out of MAME (which I personally would be totally OK with), or accept improvements to the controller descriptions that make that UI better.
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| Foxhack |
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Re: Names to correct...?
[Re: krick]
#249371 - 03/19/11 08:00 PM
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> > A lot of games would benefit having actual button names, for example the Mortal
> > Kombat series. It's OK to leave simple games like Space Invaders which only have
> > 'P1/2 Button n' and Left/Right/Start, but on more complex games it can be an
> > annoyance when setting up the control panel, especially if the games don't actually
> > use them in sequential order. With the Mortal Kombat example, it's much easier
> > mapping buttons named High/Low Punch, High/Low Kick and Block (and Run in MK3 and
> > later) than trying to map 'P1 Button 1' and the rest through trial and error. I
> can't
> > imagine how it would have been like if the PC drivers in MESS simply had 'Keyboard
> > button 1...101' listed in there!
>
>
> I believe I brought up button naming a long time ago and it was shot down because
> there are problems when multiple games in a driver share the same button map but use
> them for different purposes. i.e. multiple games on the same hardware. I recall
> someone saying that to add button descriptions that are different for each game
> within a driver, they'd have to duplicate the button code or something, causing exe
> bloat. Does any of this ring a bell?
I remember that. If only I could code, I'd figure out a way to do this. 
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[Re: 
I was looking at all these descriptions in order to have Frontends exploit these informations (displaying country flags over my icons when needed in Emuloader by exemple), already did a few of these flags and found all of these "errors" while checking which flags I still had to do... 
<- a Dutchy, Yesterday
