MAMEWorld Central >> EmuChat
View all threads Index   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Pages: 1 | 2 |

Gatinho
Tetris Mason
Reged: 04/20/07
Posts: 5759
Loc: Sector 9
Send PM


Dumping question
#262428 - 08/18/11 09:23 AM


Erm. I was at a gathering today... and there was a machine called "Bounty Hunter" there.



I never heard of/saw this machine before, so I checked it out. Neat fighting game where you actually punch, knee, and kick the game to fight the onscreen opponents. (Surprising that nothing protects the screen from a wayward punch).

I checked MAWS and I don't see this emulated yet.

Is this a game we need a dump of?

If so, I could try to approach the owner (with whom I am NOT personal friends) and see how amenable he would be to dumping it.

Before broaching this subject with a relative stranger, it would be helpful to know a few things to help the "transaction" go as positively as possible...
1. Is this title a known type that I could learn to and likely achieve dumping onsite? This scenario I would guess would likely make the owner least nervous.
2. If not feasible onsite (or beyond what you could walk a newbie through) , what options should/could I present to the owner if he is willing to entertain letting us get a dump?







R. Belmont
Cookoo for Konami
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 9556
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
Send PM


Re: Dumping question new [Re: Gatinho]
#262443 - 08/18/11 04:32 PM


I can't find any information on it anywhere - it might be someone's private one-off game?

ETA: Ahh, KLOV (where you probably got that picture) also answers your questions:

...the machine actually runs off a 1GHz Pentium III with 768MB of RAM, a 40GB hard drive and a GeForce 2 MX200 AGP graphics card. Bootup time is horrible, about 5 to 10 minutes!


So we'd need a dump of the HDD, any optical discs, the motherboard BIOS, and the video BIOS. Not really an easy turnkey operation.

Edited by R. Belmont (08/18/11 04:35 PM)



Gatinho
Tetris Mason
Reged: 04/20/07
Posts: 5759
Loc: Sector 9
Send PM


Re: Dumping question new [Re: R. Belmont]
#262446 - 08/18/11 05:10 PM


>So we'd need a dump of the HDD, any optical discs, the motherboard BIOS, and the video BIOS. Not really an easy turnkey operation.


Hmm, in general, I'm guessing when you guys dump something of that nature, you have the cabinet there.

It never hurts to ask the guy... I just want to "know what I'm talking about" when I ask.

Should he agree to letting the dumpsters get ahold of his machine for a while... Smit, does the Dumping Union cover roundtrip shipping of the cab to you and back if the guy is amenable to preserving the code? Since I'm the one ponying up this idea, I'd be willing to kick in some to defray the expense as well.







TrevEB
Brokering peace between the collectors and the Mame Community
Reged: 03/11/05
Posts: 574
Loc: Oakland, CA
Send PM


Re: Dumping question new [Re: Gatinho]
#262450 - 08/18/11 07:07 PM


Actually, this dumping project is not that hard.
You need to get familiar with chdman so as to make a backup of the hard drive. If the PC inside is built with off the shelf parts, then a bios dump involves a floppy drive and the same tools used for updating a motherboard bios.
Then you would make a note of all the hardware involved in the PC.

If there is a dongle on the PC, that would be a problem.

You may find earlier parts inside the machine (early revisions and or dongles) that could be sacrificed to the dumping union.

Backing up the hard drive would be a benefit to the owner. You could offer to trade the dump for a working compact flash copy of the drive, thus sparing him from the eventual death of the hard drive.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000YUMLPI/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_6?ie=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER



drewcifer
One bad Mutha-(shut yo' mouth!)
Reged: 07/01/04
Posts: 427
Loc: Sweden
Send PM


Re: Dumping question new [Re: TrevEB]
#262451 - 08/18/11 07:19 PM


And to further encourage the on-site dumping of this, it would be safe to say the round-trip shipping on the full cab would cost more than $1000. Shipping the hard drive stripped from the cab wouldn't be recommended, but shipping the video card to get a BIOS dumped would be fine if necessary.

Andrew



Gatinho
Tetris Mason
Reged: 04/20/07
Posts: 5759
Loc: Sector 9
Send PM


He said yes new [Re: TrevEB]
#262460 - 08/18/11 11:32 PM


Ok, I spoke with the owner of this game, and he said I can dump it. He also said if I wanted to I could ship it somewhere to be dumped, as long as he gets it back before the end of winter.

He was actually excited about the prospect of preserving it's code, it's his favorite game of all time

I can get back to the machine as early as next week, and it's "mine" to work with however I need until end of winter.

Not to mis-represent myself to him, I told him I'd be in touch with you guys to seek advice on how to dump it, that it's not something I normally do.

So, if TrevEB, or RB, or Smit or whoever wants to give me some concrete directions to follow, I can get started on dumping this bad boy. I would guess first step would be photographs so you can see first hand what we're dealing with (dongles etc). Keep in mind, we can ship it to the experts if we have to... pending shipping funds. I COULD ask him if he would pay the shipping to dump his machine... but that just sounds like asking too much and taking advantage of his kind cooperation.

If one of you guys want to speak to the owner directly we can arrange that, but I won't post his info here on the open forum.



I want this to work out positive... my first potential dumperooni.







TrevEB
Brokering peace between the collectors and the Mame Community
Reged: 03/11/05
Posts: 574
Loc: Oakland, CA
Send PM


Re: Dumping question [Re: Gatinho]
#262474 - 08/19/11 03:07 AM


Gatinho,

Here is the command to get familiar with.
chdman -createhd \\.\PHYSICALDRIVE"n" image.chd
"n" is the drive number as seen by windows drive manager.

If you are using Windows 7, then you have to run chdman as administrator.

Try it out.
Do a dry run with a spare hard drive attached via ide or USB external.


But; some things you can do first.
1. Order that camera card drive and a small but speedy card.
- this will be your gift to the guy for being so kind as to give you access to the machine. With any luck, the drive will boost the speed of game boot.

Make a video of the game since none are available.
Probably be good to do a boot up video as well.
Note any boot errors. By now, the MB battery is probably dead.

Before you remove anything, make sure you know whats working and what is not. For example, do all the contact points work on game? Do all the speakers work? Do all the lights work? Does the game boot without errors?

You'll probably be pulling the PC case out of the machine to take home. Be sure to take photos and label any cables you disconnect so it all makes sense when you put it back together.

If the game has a manual and or schematics, grab them too for backing up. Flyer too.

That should keep you busy for now.



italieAdministrator
MAME owes italie many thank yous, hah
Reged: 09/20/03
Posts: 15226
Loc: BoomTown
Send PM


Re: Dumping question new [Re: drewcifer]
#262476 - 08/19/11 03:18 AM


> And to further encourage the on-site dumping of this, it would be safe to say the
> round-trip shipping on the full cab would cost more than $1000. Shipping the hard
> drive stripped from the cab wouldn't be recommended, but shipping the video card to
> get a BIOS dumped would be fine if necessary.
>
> Andrew

Completely agree. Don't move it, and don't ship the drive. I would start with picking up an old hard drive and using chdman to extract a mame chd on it. After that, try to successfully "re-dump" that same drive. Once is all it should take to make you expert enough to safely capture his drive.

Short of that, take a movie of the boot up, and snaps of the PC motherboard. It will indicate if the bios is easily removable, or if this is going to be a project....



italieAdministrator
MAME owes italie many thank yous, hah
Reged: 09/20/03
Posts: 15226
Loc: BoomTown
Send PM


Re: Dumping question new [Re: TrevEB]
#262478 - 08/19/11 03:31 AM



> But; some things you can do first.
> 1. Order that camera card drive and a small but speedy card.
> - this will be your gift to the guy for being so kind as to give you access to the
> machine. With any luck, the drive will boost the speed of game boot.


***BIG NOTE HERE***

Do NOT go cheap on the CF card, you WILL have problems. Buy name brand.



StevieWunderful
Reged: 11/19/04
Posts: 115
Loc: NY
Send PM


Re: He said yes new [Re: Gatinho]
#262490 - 08/19/11 05:32 AM


not sure your technical level of skill...

But if you have never cloned a Hard Drive before, you should practice on other hardware first.

Make sure to use a static grounding band on your wrist, and wear clothing that is least prone to generate static. Wet or gel up your hair as well... so that its not 'frizzy'.

Static might not kill the HD... but the later game PCBs are very prone to static damages.

Similarly, Try dumping your own motherboard Bios first.

If this is beyond you, then have a guy who works with Building & Repairing PCs tackle it. It will be easy for them.

A note: Some of the games HD's used a laptop HD. (Killer Instinct), and you need an adapter to be able to connect them to a standard motherboard. The converters Ive seen, can easily be put on backwards.. which would probably fry things. You have to make sure where Pin 1 goes by looking over the cable, and then find it on the HD.

Its possible to get acceptable shipping through some companies. Pilot-Air I believe charges $300 one way. However, Shipping a game is risky... especially if the carrier is careless... like American Van Lines. They have ruined $4000 pinball machines frequently from what Ive heard, and seen.



Anonymous
Unregistered
Send PM


Re: Dumping question [Re: italie]
#262574 - 08/20/11 08:39 AM


> Short of that, take a movie of the boot up, and snaps of the PC motherboard. It will
> indicate if the bios is easily removable, or if this is going to be a project....

It should be possible to just save the bios to another hard disk.



TheGuru
MAMEDev Dumper
Reged: 06/13/04
Posts: 1226
Loc: Dumpville
Send PM


Re: Dumping question new [Re: Gatinho]
#262621 - 08/21/11 03:16 AM


Dumping PCs beyond a simple HDD or CDROM backup is usually not so simple.
You should start with good pics of the hardware and post them here so *experienced* people can make informed decisions. Most of what's in this thread so far is guess work. You'll end up with a dead game and an angry owner if you guess and remember, haste makes waste so don't rush.



Moose
Don't make me assume my ultimate form!
Reged: 05/03/04
Posts: 1399
Loc: Outback, Australia
Send PM


Re: He said yes new [Re: Gatinho]
#262622 - 08/21/11 03:32 AM


> Ok, I spoke with the owner of this game, and he said I can dump it. He also said if I
> wanted to I could ship it somewhere to be dumped, as long as he gets it back before
> the end of winter.
>
> He was actually excited about the prospect of preserving it's code, it's his favorite
> game of all time
>
> I can get back to the machine as early as next week, and it's "mine" to work with
> however I need until end of winter.
>
> Not to mis-represent myself to him, I told him I'd be in touch with you guys to seek
> advice on how to dump it, that it's not something I normally do.
>
> So, if TrevEB, or RB, or Smit or whoever wants to give me some concrete directions to
> follow, I can get started on dumping this bad boy. I would guess first step would be
> photographs so you can see first hand what we're dealing with (dongles etc). Keep in
> mind, we can ship it to the experts if we have to... pending shipping funds. I COULD
> ask him if he would pay the shipping to dump his machine... but that just sounds like
> asking too much and taking advantage of his kind cooperation.
>
> If one of you guys want to speak to the owner directly we can arrange that, but I
> won't post his info here on the open forum.
>
>
> I want this to work out positive... my first potential dumperooni.

Awesome work Gat !!

My advice: be as fully prepared as possible before even touching the machine (see TrevEB's, RB's, Guru's and other advice), especially if you are going to try and do this on-site. You don't want to look like an amateur. Get all the advice you can from the experts here, buy any equipment you need, etc, and then tackle it. (Personally, I'd rather do it off-site, so you can take your time, have a proper / quiet work area, buy any extra stuff you need if you discover something is needed, etc - but this may not be possible ...) And, definitely don't go asking the guy for any money to cover shipping or whatever.

I'll kick in $100 to help cover any expenses - via the DU or whatever you say is the best way.



Moose



Gatinho
Tetris Mason
Reged: 04/20/07
Posts: 5759
Loc: Sector 9
Send PM


Re: Dumping question [Re: TheGuru]
#262625 - 08/21/11 05:02 AM


Roger... was hoping to hear from you. I'll start with photos of the hardware, then wait for advice from there.

I'll also get videos of boot up, game play, photos of art work, and a gum sample from the underside. Video of gameplay will be a challenge since you need to stand in from of it to punch and kick around the screen. Pretty awesome game actually, surprised it wasn't more popular.







italieAdministrator
MAME owes italie many thank yous, hah
Reged: 09/20/03
Posts: 15226
Loc: BoomTown
Send PM


Re: Dumping question [Re: Gatinho]
#262628 - 08/21/11 05:30 AM


> ... and a gum sample from the underside.

MAME has just entered in to a whole new level of accuracy. Mr.Do, I trust the lay files can support gum rendering?



Anonymous
Unregistered
Send PM


Unwanted attention new [Re: R. Belmont]
#262668 - 08/21/11 11:00 PM



Quote:


...the machine actually runs off a 1GHz Pentium III with 768MB of RAM, a 40GB hard drive and a GeForce 2 MX200 AGP graphics card. Bootup time is horrible, about 5 to 10 minutes!




That sounds familiar....hmmm

So the Mame Devs are interested in ripping machines that may not be arcade machines, or arcade machines that might be still sold and relevantly new on a legacy platform.

Do you know who the manufacture is? If so have you contacted them? Is this operator the copyright owner of the game?

I would be upset if I coded that game only to find a dump on the Internet of the very same game I was going to sell or port to a console platform. (BlazBlue: Calamity Trigger ring any bells?)

Its not like you devs have to look at unique schematics and code it for Mame.

Sounds dodgy to me.

Just saying...

Update:
Looks like they are still around. Pretty cool website too.
Maybe they can sell you a copy.

G&C Tech Co., Ltd.
Gongju National Univ., Shinkwan-dong, Gongju Si, Chungcheongnam-do 314-701, Korea
Shin Kwan Woo
+82-41-857-7473



italieAdministrator
MAME owes italie many thank yous, hah
Reged: 09/20/03
Posts: 15226
Loc: BoomTown
Send PM


Re: Unwanted attention new [Re: ]
#262673 - 08/22/11 12:03 AM


> ...the machine actually runs off a 1GHz Pentium III with 768MB of RAM, a 40GB hard
> drive and a GeForce 2 MX200 AGP graphics card. Bootup time is horrible, about 5 to 10
> minutes!
>
> That sounds familiar....hmmm
>
> So the Mame Devs are interested in ripping machines that may not be arcade machines,
> or arcade machines that might be still sold and relevantly new on a legacy platform.
>
> Do you know who the manufacture is? If so have you contacted them? Is this operator
> the copyright owner of the game?
>
> I would be upset if I coded that game only to find a dump on the Internet of the very
> same game I was going to sell or port to a console platform. (BlazBlue: Calamity
> Trigger ring any bells?)
>
> Its not like you devs have to look at unique schematics and code it for Mame.
>
> Sounds dodgy to me.
>
> Just saying...
>
> Update:
> Looks like they are still around. Pretty cool website too.
> Maybe they can sell you a copy.
>
> G&C Tech Co., Ltd.
> Gongju National Univ., Shinkwan-dong, Gongju Si, Chungcheongnam-do 314-701, Korea
> Shin Kwan Woo
> +82-41-857-7473


Proper channels can be a double edge sword too. Rare-ish machine...dump it and sit on it IMO. MAMEDev seems to have no problem holding on to things until the time is right and/or respecting the wishes of manufacturers.



Anonymous
Unregistered
Send PM


Re: Unwanted attention new [Re: italie]
#262678 - 08/22/11 12:57 AM


Its the act of copying that troubles me, not the sitting on the source. Old games from companies that have disappeared into the ether is one thing, dumping code from an active company is another.

Does Mame have any policies in place with regards to ethics, and if so what are those ethics in relation to capturing modern arcade machines and their software?

Are these operating companies contacted, with a formal request to preserve their code for documentation and archiving purposes before dumping?



SmitdoggAdministrator
Reged: 09/18/03
Posts: 15777
Send PM


Re: He said yes [Re: Gatinho]
#262682 - 08/22/11 01:13 AM


There's not much for me to add. You have to get pics of the hardware. There is probably a bios on the motherboard and video card. You might be able to read them out with a program if you can boot it into Windows/DOS and you are having a really lucky day. Otherwise you aren't going to be able to do it and they will need to be lent out.



Reznor007
Semi-Lurker
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 518
Loc: Norman, OK, USA
Send PM


Re: Unwanted attention [Re: ]
#262686 - 08/22/11 02:40 AM


It's a game from 2002, there are games newer than that in MAME already. Seeing as the game is 9 years old, it's unlikely to hurt sales of it at this point.

EDIT-Ignoring the fact that even if it worked fully in MAME as soon as it's dumped, it would be slow as hell considering its a 1GHz pentium3 with a geforce2.

Edited by Reznor007 (08/22/11 02:42 AM)



italieAdministrator
MAME owes italie many thank yous, hah
Reged: 09/20/03
Posts: 15226
Loc: BoomTown
Send PM


Re: Unwanted attention [Re: ]
#262689 - 08/22/11 04:29 AM


> Its the act of copying that troubles me, not the sitting on the source. Old games
> from companies that have disappeared into the ether is one thing, dumping code from
> an active company is another.

If I understand the DCMA correctly, the act of backing up purchased media, active company or not, isn't illegal. Having Gat help wouldn't be illegal either. As long as sales of said company aren't affected, things are pretty much kosher legal-wise. Having that backup "stored" offsite with a third party should, for all intents and purposes, be legally OK as well. I don't think things start getting "grey" until it is distributed beyond the legal copy.


> Does Mame have any policies in place with regards to ethics, and if so what are those
> ethics in relation to capturing modern arcade machines and their software?

I can't speak for anyone involved with MAME, but again, they have always shown to be as ethical as you can be given the topic. As far as I've seen they have been very responsive to copyright holders requests.



Mr. DoAdministrator
MAME Art Editor
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 4373
Loc: California
Send PM


Re: Dumping question [Re: italie]
#262695 - 08/22/11 07:37 AM


> > ... and a gum sample from the underside.
>
> MAME has just entered in to a whole new level of accuracy. Mr.Do, I trust the lay
> files can support gum rendering?

What flavor? Grape and cherry I know I can handle. Watermelon gets a bit tricky, though.




RELAX and just have fun. Remember, it's all about the games.




TheGuru
MAMEDev Dumper
Reged: 06/13/04
Posts: 1226
Loc: Dumpville
Send PM


Re: Unwanted attention new [Re: Reznor007]
#262698 - 08/22/11 09:03 AM


> It's a game from 2002, there are games newer than that in MAME already. Seeing as the
> game is 9 years old, it's unlikely to hurt sales of it at this point.
>
> EDIT-Ignoring the fact that even if it worked fully in MAME as soon as it's dumped,
> it would be slow as hell considering its a 1GHz pentium3 with a geforce2.

There's a 3 year rule from the year shown on the title screen. There is nothing in MAME newer than 3 years before 2011. If it doesn't make money in 3 years it's probably a dog and it won't make any more money regardless of whether it's in MAME or not.



etabeta
Reged: 08/25/04
Posts: 2035
Send PM


Re: Unwanted attention new [Re: ]
#262699 - 08/22/11 09:28 AM


> Does Mame have any policies in place with regards to ethics, and if so what are those
> ethics in relation to capturing modern arcade machines and their software?

define modern.

if a game is still sold for arcades, it does not get into MAME
if it's not sold anymore for arcades and it's newer than ~3 years, it does not get into MAME

if it's older than 3 years or it's not sold anymore for arcade, the company can hardly being damaged by emulation (especially emulation at ~3FPS, like emulation of a Pentium 3 would be at best)



R. Belmont
Cookoo for Konami
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 9556
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
Send PM


Re: Unwanted attention [Re: ]
#262709 - 08/22/11 05:07 PM


> So the Mame Devs are interested in ripping machines that may not be arcade machines,
> or arcade machines that might be still sold and relevantly new on a legacy platform.

Apparently you're unfamiliar (System16.com can educate you), but a majority of arcade games made since about 1997 are on commodity console or PC hardware. That doesn't make them not arcade games. Furthermore, this game was sold to arcade operators just like any other game. So it's fair game for MAME.

If the company wishes to protect a console version, they can contact us just as Cave and Arika have in the past. (In Arika's case, they made more copies of the game than Xbox 360s have ever sold in Japan, with predictable 2600 ET-like results, but MAMEdev did remove the games as we were asked).



R. Belmont
Cookoo for Konami
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 9556
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
Send PM


Re: Unwanted attention [Re: ]
#262710 - 08/22/11 05:09 PM


> Its the act of copying that troubles me, not the sitting on the source. Old games
> from companies that have disappeared into the ether is one thing, dumping code from
> an active company is another.

Seriously? You've shown no problem with dumping code from active companies like Sega, Namco, Konami, and Taito previously.



R. Belmont
Cookoo for Konami
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 9556
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
Send PM


Re: Dumping question new [Re: ]
#262712 - 08/22/11 05:10 PM


> It should be possible to just save the bios to another hard disk.

Not necessarily - most P2 and later BIOSes are banked. Just saving F000h:**** doesn't get you the whole thing.



Olivier Galibert
Semi-Lurker
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 337
Send PM


Re: Dumping question new [Re: R. Belmont]
#262721 - 08/22/11 08:19 PM


> > It should be possible to just save the bios to another hard disk.
>
> Not necessarily - most P2 and later BIOSes are banked. Just saving F000h:**** doesn't
> get you the whole thing.

It's usually mapped linearly at the end of the 32 bits address space by the south bridge and not actually banked. f0000-fffff is quickly switched to ram in general.

OG.



R. Belmont
Cookoo for Konami
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 9556
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
Send PM


Re: Dumping question [Re: Olivier Galibert]
#262735 - 08/22/11 09:09 PM


> > > It should be possible to just save the bios to another hard disk.
> >
> > Not necessarily - most P2 and later BIOSes are banked. Just saving F000h:****
> doesn't
> > get you the whole thing.
>
> It's usually mapped linearly at the end of the 32 bits address space by the south
> bridge and not actually banked. f0000-fffff is quickly switched to ram in general.

Right, but the usual instructions for this involve booting DOS and using DEBUG.COM to do the dump, which isn't going to see the 32 bit address space.



Anonymous
Unregistered
Send PM


Re: Unwanted attention [Re: R. Belmont]
#262737 - 08/22/11 09:51 PM




Quote:


> Seriously? You've shown no problem with dumping code from active companies like Sega,
> Namco, Konami, and Taito previously.




Reference please.



Anonymous
Unregistered
Send PM


Re: Unwanted attention new [Re: R. Belmont]
#262750 - 08/22/11 10:22 PM



Quote:


> > So the Mame Devs are interested in ripping machines that may not be arcade
> machines,
> > or arcade machines that might be still sold and relevantly new on a legacy
> platform.
>
> Apparently you're unfamiliar (System16.com can educate you), but a majority of arcade
> games made since about 1997 are on commodity console or PC hardware. That doesn't
> make them not arcade games. Furthermore, this game was sold to arcade operators just
> like any other game. So it's fair game for MAME.
>
> If the company wishes to protect a console version, they can contact us just as Cave
> and Arika have in the past. (In Arika's case, they made more copies of the game than
> Xbox 360s have ever sold in Japan, with predictable 2600 ET-like results, but MAMEdev
> did remove the games as we were asked).




What ever happened to asking the companies first if their copyrighted works can be dumped and copied first? We are talking about a platform that is not required to be preserved. If the platform had some obscure CPU I would be more understanding. But this is not the case is it?

I think this suggestion about comparing grabbing legacy software from a Korean company is somehow linked to the virtue of preserving 80s arcade games is just weak.

It looks to me that, there is no ethical boundaries Mame cannot cross. I cannot believe that. What's next? Preserving some Half Life 2 mod in a PC with an unique controller because its in the same vein as HL2 Survivor?

There are so many games of the 80s out there that are still not captured (some I know are beyond some of you), and yet you are all vesting on this Bounty Hunter game?

LOL.

Just ask them, I'm sure they would be appreciative of the gesture. They might help you too. Heck they might make some money out of a port after all.

If I am wrong about all of this, please show me some references to support your argument, right now I cannot understand dumping recent x86 software.



redk9258Moderator
Regular
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 3954
Loc: Troy, Illinois USA
Send PM


Re: Unwanted attention new [Re: ]
#262753 - 08/22/11 10:38 PM


Why not just wait until the harddrive is broken to dump it? Or maybe a power surge wipes out the motherboard, bios, video card, etc. You do realize, just because it is dumped doesn't mean it will be added to MAME, right? Someone who has this machine with a broken HDD might be happy it is dumped. It might save the machine from going to the landfill. I think what R. Belmont was asking above is why do you care so much about this game /company and not all of the big companies mentioned above?



R. Belmont
Cookoo for Konami
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 9556
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
Send PM


Re: Unwanted attention new [Re: ]
#262755 - 08/22/11 10:50 PM


> What ever happened to asking the companies first if their copyrighted works can be
> dumped and copied first? We are talking about a platform that is not required to be
> preserved. If the platform had some obscure CPU I would be more understanding. But
> this is not the case is it?

I really do not get this argument of yours that only games on obscure hardware should be preserved. Probably 98% of what's in MAME runs on a 68000+Z80, and neither of those are anything like obscure. Yet you didn't object before now.

> I think this suggestion about comparing grabbing legacy software from a Korean
> company is somehow linked to the virtue of preserving 80s arcade games is just weak.

No "virtue of preserving 80s arcade games" is claimed. MAMEdev attempts to dump and preserve all arcade games, regardless of hardware, popularity, genre, regional morals, or anything else. The most-played games in MAME are all from the 90s, as much as it pains genre purists.

> It looks to me that, there is no ethical boundaries Mame cannot cross. I cannot
> believe that. What's next? Preserving some Half Life 2 mod in a PC with an unique
> controller because its in the same vein as HL2 Survivor?

Home PC games don't magically become interesting for MAME just because PCs are used in arcade cabinets. There have been games in MAME for many years based on a menagerie of home computers and consoles, many of them from the 80s, but that hasn't exactly opened any floodgates to the home software from those systems.

> There are so many games of the 80s out there that are still not captured (some I know
> are beyond some of you), and yet you are all vesting on this Bounty Hunter game?

If you have leads on getting those games, fess up. Otherwise, it's not as if we're ignoring promising leads on 80s games to dump this. (Hell, based on this thread, it's not as if any MAMEdev or Dumping Union resources are being used at all aside from the part where I'm arguing with you when I should be improving Model 2).

> If I am wrong about all of this, please show me some references to support your
> argument, right now I cannot understand dumping recent x86 software.

You seem to be arguing that if we add an arcade game based on a popular computer or console then MAME must add all software ever made for that computer or console. That has never been the case, and there is no evidence that it ever will be.



R. Belmont
Cookoo for Konami
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 9556
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
Send PM


Re: Unwanted attention new [Re: ]
#262756 - 08/22/11 10:51 PM


> > Seriously? You've shown no problem with dumping code from active companies like
> Sega,
> > Namco, Konami, and Taito previously.
>
> Reference please.

No, you reference please. I want to see a link to a post dated prior to August of 2011 on a forum you don't own in which you object to dumping any game because it's from an active company.



Anonymous
Unregistered
Send PM


Re: Unwanted attention new [Re: R. Belmont]
#262759 - 08/23/11 12:00 AM


> > > Seriously? You've shown no problem with dumping code from active companies like
> > Sega,
> > > Namco, Konami, and Taito previously.
> >
> > Reference please.
>
> No, you reference please. I want to see a link to a post dated prior to August of
> 2011 on a forum you don't own in which you object to dumping any game because it's
> from an active company.

That doesn't make any sense. So I have to put a disclaimer to every post I write in here now?

I do have a problem with dumping code from active companies, but what can I do about it? Nothing.

I do have one where I object to a person distributing emulator game files which are illegal. Which I got a take down.

But I cannot post links to * those sites * in here.

Sorry.



Anonymous
Unregistered
Send PM


Re:I'm probably now getting unwanted attention.. new [Re: italie]
#262760 - 08/23/11 12:18 AM



Quote:


If I understand the DCMA correctly, the act of backing up purchased media, active
> company or not, isn't illegal. Having Gat help wouldn't be illegal either. As long as
> sales of said company aren't affected, things are pretty much kosher legal-wise.



Where does it say that?


Quote:


On October 12, 1998, the U.S. Congress passed the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, ending many months of turbulent negotiations regarding its provisions. Two weeks later, on October 28th, President Clinton signed the Act into law.

The Act is designed to implement the treaties signed in December 1996 at the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO) Geneva conference, but also contains additional provisions addressing related matters.

As was the case with the 'No Electronic Theft' Act (1997), the bill was originally supported by the software and entertainment industries, and opposed by scientists, librarians, and academics.

Highlights Generally:

Makes it a crime to circumvent anti-piracy measures built into most commercial software.

· Outlaws the manufacture, sale, or distribution of code-cracking devices used to illegally copy software.

· Does permit the cracking of copyright protection devices, however, to conduct encryption research, assess product interoperability, and test computer security systems.

· Provides exemptions from anti-circumvention provisions for nonprofit libraries, archives, and educational institutions under certain circumstances.

· In general, limits Internet service providers from copyright infringement liability for simply transmitting information over the Internet.

· Service providers, however, are expected to remove material from users' web sites that appears to constitute copyright infringement.

· Limits liability of nonprofit institutions of higher education -- when they serve as online service providers and under certain circumstances -- for copyright infringement by faculty members or graduate students.

· Requires that "webcasters" pay licensing fees to record companies.

· Requires that the Register of Copyrights, after consultation with relevant parties, submit to Congress recommendations regarding how to promote distance education through digital technologies while "maintaining an appropriate balance between the rights of copyright owners and the needs of users."

· States explicitly that "nothing in this section shall affect rights, remedies, limitations, or defenses to copyright infringement, including fair use..."






The only two bingos you guys get out of that list is archiving, and assess product interoperability but you are not associated to the Library of Congress (yet) or associated with the copyright holders (yet).

When I read that I was amazed by the coverage. And makes me think twice before copying my PC game as a backup. UK law says its OK for backups, so that is a given.

So if your game disc dies, its tough luck eh?

There are additions to that rule like the ipod jailbreaking rule, which you could argue that the machines are obsolete thus allowing to break protection systems. Then thre is Australia ruling on copy protection.

Still interesting reading just the same.



italieAdministrator
MAME owes italie many thank yous, hah
Reged: 09/20/03
Posts: 15226
Loc: BoomTown
Send PM


Two words new [Re: ]
#262762 - 08/23/11 12:52 AM


"Fair Use".

How those two words are interpreted is where all the trouble starts. If no copy protection scheme is circumvented in making said backup, Fair Use easily applies to the situation.



Anonymous
Unregistered
Send PM


Re: Two words new [Re: italie]
#262763 - 08/23/11 01:15 AM


Fair Use is a word I like too.



Heihachi_73
I am the Table!
Reged: 10/29/03
Posts: 934
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Send PM


Re: Unwanted attention new [Re: etabeta]
#262766 - 08/23/11 01:58 AM


> if it's older than 3 years or it's not sold anymore for arcade, the company can
> hardly being damaged by emulation (especially emulation at ~3FPS, like emulation of a
> Pentium 3 would be at best)

Until an x86 DRC is implemented in MAME... x86 itself is dead and buried these days.

Besides, if MAME doesn't preserve or emulate these games, most likely someone else will and most likely with devastating results in terms of preservation (it all about t3h g4m3z, of course). If it's truly x86/Win32 and using stock standard PC components, I would imagine anyone who did hack the game would probably get it to run as a standalone EXE on anything from a Pentium 2 up (e.g. top of the line Brazil-spec PC), and probably also hacked up to use any 3D card at any resolution such as 1080p. Not to mention, the source code probably wouldn't be available at all, the program would never be updated so it ends up crashing on every second PC which doesn't match the author's exact specs, it eventually gets leaked, and the author quits and it's back to the drawing board four years later. Been there, done that, got quite a few T-shirts now.



Gatinho
Tetris Mason
Reged: 04/20/07
Posts: 5759
Loc: Sector 9
Send PM


Re: Unwanted attention [Re: ]
#262769 - 08/23/11 02:10 AM


>dumping code from an active company is another.

That whole discussion may be mute (moot? what if it's not relevant AND can't talk... muot?), since as I understand it the company that made this game no longer exists. The owner of the machine has attempted to contact the manufacturer several times to order parts, and was informed that the company no longer exists. KLOV (ETA: and your post) lists the game's manufacturer as a Korean company GCTech, which may or may not be correct. The company is defintely Korean, since the owner bought the machine from Korea, but GCTech as currently registered wasn't formed until 2009, and the game is from 2002... and GCTech is a green energy lighting company, not a video game company. I'll know more about it's actual manufacture when I get back to the cab and get a look at any plates it may have.

Either way, he's entitled to a back-up, since he owns the machine... and he's allowing access to the machine to emulate it for preservation... all within his rights as owner of the machine. Quite frankly, how's this any different than the other 7304 sets preserved in MAME? Why draw the exception now?

ETA:

>We are talking about a platform that is not required to be preserved. If the platform had some obscure CPU I would be more understanding.

It's the one and only known cabinet of this now orphaned title... is there anything more obscure than one and only known? Once this singular cabinet's hardware fails... this title may be lost forever. If ever there was an example of why such code should be preserved... here it is.

Edited by Gatinho (08/23/11 02:21 AM)







Lord Nightmare
Speech Synth Berzerker
Reged: 03/08/04
Posts: 847
Loc: PA, USA
Send PM


Re: Dumping question [Re: R. Belmont]
#262773 - 08/23/11 03:01 AM


> > > > It should be possible to just save the bios to another hard disk.
> > >
> > > Not necessarily - most P2 and later BIOSes are banked. Just saving F000h:****
> > doesn't
> > > get you the whole thing.
> >
> > It's usually mapped linearly at the end of the 32 bits address space by the south
> > bridge and not actually banked. f0000-fffff is quickly switched to ram in general.
>
> Right, but the usual instructions for this involve booting DOS and using DEBUG.COM to
> do the dump, which isn't going to see the 32 bit address space.

The MESS 'dump bios using debug' page has a util on it called dumpAT or dumpPC which i believe does dump the end of the 24 or 32 bit address space. That will work, I THINK. Try it?

LN



"When life gives you zombies... *CHA-CHIK!* ...you make zombie-ade!"



mike20599
MAME Fan
Reged: 09/14/08
Posts: 204
Send PM


Translation new [Re: ]
#262798 - 08/23/11 03:43 PM


> What ever happened to asking the companies first if their copyrighted works can be
> dumped and copied first? We are talking about a platform that is not required to be
> preserved. If the platform had some obscure CPU I would be more understanding. But
> this is not the case is it?
>
> I think this suggestion about comparing grabbing legacy software from a Korean
> company is somehow linked to the virtue of preserving 80s arcade games is just weak.
>
> It looks to me that, there is no ethical boundaries Mame cannot cross. I cannot
> believe that. What's next? Preserving some Half Life 2 mod in a PC with an unique
> controller because its in the same vein as HL2 Survivor?
>
> There are so many games of the 80s out there that are still not captured (some I know
> are beyond some of you), and yet you are all vesting on this Bounty Hunter game?
>
> LOL.
>
> Just ask them, I'm sure they would be appreciative of the gesture. They might help
> you too. Heck they might make some money out of a port after all.
>
> If I am wrong about all of this, please show me some references to support your
> argument, right now I cannot understand dumping recent x86 software.

Translation:
I only like old games so I want all of Mamedev to only work on those old games that I like. I demand that Mamedev cease work on new games or I will have you sued.



R. Belmont
Cookoo for Konami
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 9556
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
Send PM


Re: Unwanted attention new [Re: ]
#262807 - 08/23/11 06:15 PM


> That doesn't make any sense. So I have to put a disclaimer to every post I write in
> here now?

You're the one objecting to the fundamental basis of arcade emulation 14 years after it became common, and on a series of arbitrary technicalities that apply equally well to your apparently beloved 80s games.

Anyway, given Gatinho's update that the company is *not* still in business and that this is the only working cabinet of this game known to exist, I think it's now been proven rather thoroughly that preservation of this game is in fact important.



etabeta
Reged: 08/25/04
Posts: 2035
Send PM


Re: Unwanted attention [Re: redk9258]
#262829 - 08/23/11 10:04 PM


> Why not just wait until the harddrive is broken to dump it? Or maybe a power surge
> wipes out the motherboard, bios, video card, etc.

and one has to notice that it is indeed very important to dump also the PC Bios and the video card chargen and possible sound components to get a proper emulation, not only the HDD

the game output might change if the HD is connected to different hardware and it's not like Bizimonki seems to imply that PC hardware is all the same...



Anonymous
Unregistered
Send PM


Re: Translation new [Re: mike20599]
#262832 - 08/23/11 10:36 PM



Quote:


Translation:
I only like old games so I want all of Mamedev to only work on those old games that I like. I demand that Mamedev cease work on new games or I will have you sued.



Exactly what a Mame Fanboy troll would come up with.



Anonymous
Unregistered
Send PM


Re: Unwanted attention new [Re: Heihachi_73]
#262833 - 08/23/11 10:42 PM


> > if it's older than 3 years or it's not sold anymore for arcade, the company can
> > hardly being damaged by emulation (especially emulation at ~3FPS, like emulation of
> a
> > Pentium 3 would be at best)
>
> Until an x86 DRC is implemented in MAME... x86 itself is dead and buried these days.
>
> Besides, if MAME doesn't preserve or emulate these games, most likely someone else
> will and most likely with devastating results in terms of preservation (it all about
> t3h g4m3z, of course). If it's truly x86/Win32 and using stock standard PC
> components, I would imagine anyone who did hack the game would probably get it to run
> as a standalone EXE on anything from a Pentium 2 up (e.g. top of the line Brazil-spec
> PC), and probably also hacked up to use any 3D card at any resolution such as 1080p.
> Not to mention, the source code probably wouldn't be available at all, the program
> would never be updated so it ends up crashing on every second PC which doesn't match
> the author's exact specs, it eventually gets leaked, and the author quits and it's
> back to the drawing board four years later. Been there, done that, got quite a few
> T-shirts now.

Either way you will soon find out I guess. Its fascinating how you guys bulldoze IP, and come up with a fitting response. Just fascinating.



Reznor007
Semi-Lurker
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 518
Loc: Norman, OK, USA
Send PM


Re: Unwanted attention new [Re: ]
#262835 - 08/23/11 11:08 PM


Just in case you missed this yet again, it's a 9 year old game. How many 9 year old games make decent sales in stores, let alone the dying arcade industry? I can think of Pacman/Galaga, but that's about it.



B2K24
Evolution is a mystery
Reged: 10/25/10
Posts: 2454
Send PM


Re: Translation new [Re: ]
#262837 - 08/24/11 12:01 AM


> > That doesn't make any sense. So I have to put a disclaimer to every post I write in
> > here now?
>
> You're the one objecting to the fundamental basis of arcade emulation 14 years after
> it became common, and on a series of arbitrary technicalities that apply equally well
> to your apparently beloved 80s games.
>
> Anyway, given Gatinho's update that the company is *not* still in business and that
> this is the only working cabinet of this game known to exist, I think it's now been
> proven rather thoroughly that preservation of this game is in fact important.


> Exactly what a Mame Fanboy troll would come up with.

If I got owned like that I wouldn't have a reply back either





Moose
Don't make me assume my ultimate form!
Reged: 05/03/04
Posts: 1399
Loc: Outback, Australia
Send PM


Re: Unwanted attention new [Re: Gatinho]
#262838 - 08/24/11 12:20 AM


>Quite frankly, how's this any different than the
> other 7304 sets preserved in MAME? Why draw the exception now?

That's exactly what I was thinking.

You aren't new around here Bizimonki - you've been active on these forums for about 3.5 years and you've got 130+ posts under your belt. You are probably interested in MAME (otherwise you wouldn't be here), you possibly have MAME installed, and you might even have a bunch of ROMs for games that you don't own.

I read these forums everyday, and have done since the old MAME forums closed down. It's one of the very few places I visit / hang out regularly on-line. And I don't recall you ever asking about the legality of games / ROMS / MAME.

Why the sudden qualms about legality of one obscure game ?

Is it just because it's x86 ?

Not trying to pick a fight here, just trying to understand.



Anonymous
Unregistered
Send PM


Re: Unwanted attention new [Re: Moose]
#262843 - 08/24/11 01:37 AM



Quote:


> > Quite frankly, how's this any different than the
> > other 7304 sets preserved in MAME? Why draw the exception now?
>
> That's exactly what I was thinking.
>
> You aren't new around here Bizimonki - you've been active on these forums for about
> 3.5 years and you've got 130+ posts under your belt. You are probably interested in
> MAME (otherwise you wouldn't be here), you possibly have MAME installed, and you
> might even have a bunch of ROMs for games that you don't own.
>
> I read these forums everyday, and have done since the old MAME forums closed down.
> It's one of the very few places I visit / hang out regularly on-line. And I don't
> recall you ever asking about the legality of games / ROMS / MAME.
>
> Why the sudden qualms about legality of one obscure game ?
>
> Is it just because it's x86 ?
>
> Not trying to pick a fight here, just trying to understand.




No its not the legality of obscure games that is irking me. I do have several sets of Mame with obscure games and I have bought a few boards too.

What I'm interested is the apparent lack of respect for IP. If you have access to a company that either holds copyright or a license, and the project is not doing anything illegal, why not contact the said company for permission to dump/break copy protection?

Its not because I object to the accomplishments of what Mame has brought to the millions of fans, its the IP of those companies that are still operating that are being ignored. Nintendo is still around.

Exidy developers allowed the use of roms didn't they? Would the other major arcade players that are still operating, not provide the same services?

Mame is replicating a platform, not copying games, so why is there the lack of consideration for the manufacturer?

What has been done is remarkable, granted, but where is the responsibility of permission versus blatancy.

You might be wondering why I ask so many questions, but I am writing my thesis on arcade emulation, and these types of questions are being investigated.



Anonymous
Unregistered
Send PM


Re: Unwanted attention new [Re: Reznor007]
#262845 - 08/24/11 01:43 AM



Quote:


> Just in case you missed this yet again, it's a 9 year old game. How many 9 year old
> games make decent sales in stores, let alone the dying arcade industry? I can think
> of Pacman/Galaga, but that's about it.




Ok Copyright is 100 years? So what about the other 91? IS that ignored? Maybe. Probably.

Its not what you do today, it could be what you are working now. There is the opposite.. Bounty Hunter might be such a hit, that it will spark clones or end up on XBL.

I play games on the PC that is more than 9 years old. I do not sell games. How about asking someone like Nintendo that question? Or Microsoft. Seriously.



Anonymous
Unregistered
Send PM


Re: Unwanted attention [Re: Reznor007]
#262847 - 08/24/11 01:51 AM



Quote:


> It's a game from 2002, there are games newer than that in MAME already. Seeing as the
> game is 9 years old, it's unlikely to hurt sales of it at this point.
>
> EDIT-Ignoring the fact that even if it worked fully in MAME as soon as it's dumped,
> it would be slow as hell considering its a 1GHz pentium3 with a geforce2.




Yeah I know. Remember I had a 1Ghz P3 and tried to load in Dkong? Ran like a pig. I'm sure you could optimize BH to run faster, with less ***** but again we don't have 30 core PCs yet so there is still hope.

[I hope Mr Belmont doesn't respond to this as he is busy coding Model2 and his time is valuable.]



Anonymous
Unregistered
Send PM


Re: Unwanted attention new [Re: R. Belmont]
#262849 - 08/24/11 02:00 AM



Quote:


If the company wishes to protect a console version, they can contact us just as Cave
> and Arika have in the past. (In Arika's case, they made more copies of the game than
> Xbox 360s have ever sold in Japan, with predictable 2600 ET-like results, but MAMEdev
> did remove the games as we were asked).




But then nobody decided to ask them first, they just did it, and only did you remove it, after the fact. Right?

I do not see that as a positive.

Sorry no kudos for you.



SmitdoggAdministrator
Reged: 09/18/03
Posts: 15777
Send PM


Re: Unwanted attention [Re: ]
#262853 - 08/24/11 02:20 AM


Everybody has a different perfect world of copyrights and music/movie/video game preservation opinion. Why it is that you think yours is better than everyone else's to the point of pulling out your dick on our forum and taking a urination that would impress a recently thawed out Austin Powers is a better question than the trolling horse shit you are producing. If you have a vastly different opinion than everyone in a community then you probably don't belong in that community even if you are writing a thesis on them. You don't see me ranting on a vegan board about how they should eat meat. You think companies should be dead before their games are emulated. Aaron thought 3 years before adding to MAME. I guess I'd go with 7ish. Some other people would say 10 etc. Whoopidee doo. Why don't you write a chapter on drug companies getting less than 5 years to sell their IP before it gets legally bootlegged and how video games should still be 100 before there is an emulator for their hardware because some retard wrote a law about it before video games even existed. Can't wait to read it...



redk9258Moderator
Regular
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 3954
Loc: Troy, Illinois USA
Send PM


Re: Unwanted attention [Re: Smitdogg]
#262865 - 08/24/11 04:15 AM


> Everybody has a different perfect world of copyrights and music/movie/video game
> preservation opinion. Why it is that you think yours is better than everyone else's
> to the point of pulling out your dick on our forum and taking a urination that would
> impress a recently thawed out Austin Powers is a better question than the trolling
> horse shit you are producing. If you have a vastly different opinion than everyone in
> a community then you probably don't belong in that community even if you are writing
> a thesis on them. You don't see me ranting on a vegan board about how they should eat
> meat. You think companies should be dead before their games are emulated. Aaron
> thought 3 years before adding to MAME. I guess I'd go with 7ish. Some other people
> would say 10 etc. Whoopidee doo. Why don't you write a chapter on drug companies
> getting less than 5 years to sell their IP before it gets legally bootlegged and how
> video games should still be 100 before there is an emulator for their hardware
> because some retard wrote a law about it before video games even existed. Can't wait
> to read it...

+1



Moose
Don't make me assume my ultimate form!
Reged: 05/03/04
Posts: 1399
Loc: Outback, Australia
Send PM


Re: Unwanted attention new [Re: ]
#262873 - 08/24/11 05:55 AM


> If the company wishes to protect a console version, they can contact us just as Cave
> > and Arika have in the past. (In Arika's case, they made more copies of the game
> than
> > Xbox 360s have ever sold in Japan, with predictable 2600 ET-like results, but
> MAMEdev
> > did remove the games as we were asked).
>
> But then nobody decided to ask them first, they just did it, and only did you remove
> it, after the fact. Right?
>
> I do not see that as a positive.
>
> Sorry no kudos for you.

You might like to rethink things.

Plenty of people have asked the "major" companies. Not a single one as far as I can tell has ever said "Yes". There is either no answer (which implies "No") or else there is a definite "No".

Here's one example: In the very early days of arcade emulation, Dave Spicer (Sparcade) and I exchanged many, many dozens (perhaps 100's) of emails. In 1995/96, I offered a lot of money (think 6 figures !) to back him to take his arcade emulator and make it a commercial product with 100% legal / licensed games. The BIG problem - and the reason the project never went commercial - was the permissions. No-one would grant any. No-one even wanted to discuss money / licensing fees. No-one would talk about it. The "right person" was never there to talk to. No-one would answer letters. No-one would return phone calls. They just wanted to sit on their IP. Their focus was the future. Not old or ancient games from their past.

If people asked before emulating, then there would be ZERO emulation. Many of the games supported by projects like MAME are preserved ONLY because these projects saved them, and often they were saved just in time. Many games would already be lost to oblivion if things were left to the IP holders. In many cases, they don't even have a backup of their source code.

The fact that there are now some freeware games for MAME doesn't mean anything. These were only released long after MAME had become a success (emulating dozens of games, with wide distribution).

If MAME had been a project that was still trying to emulate it's first game with full permission of the IP owner, and had approached any of the very nice people who have now released their games as freeware, then would they have said "YES" ?

I'm all for you doing research about this for your thesis. However, you need to keep an open mind. It sounds like you have already decided on what your answers are, long before you've done the research and probably long before you have even thought what the real questions should be.

Where are your interviews with emulator devs, IP holders, etc ? Where are your surveys of these people ? Where's your literature review ? Where have you tested your claims ? e.g. write to a selection of IP holders to ask them about licensing their games for your own hypothetical emulation project, and see how far you get. Then, and only then, will you know what the real situation is.

If you are coming to conclusions, you'd better have solid evidence to backup all of your findings, or your thesis wont be worth anything.



BIOS-D
MAME Fan
Reged: 08/07/06
Posts: 1551
Send PM


Let's check some of your troll history.... new [Re: ]
#262876 - 08/24/11 07:29 AM


> Exactly what a Mame Fanboy troll would come up with.

Quick search, user: Bizimonki. Time consumed: 2 minutes.

Most of your messages are related to how MAME handles itself. Either coding (stupid C vs C++ argument), direction (H*z* vs. Aaron Giles), platform (Windows and any other OS vs. build your own MAME OS from scratch and make games run faster), performance ("every new build should be like running 0.83 on my P3, why upgrade?"), games inclusion ("coin pushers on MAME? no way") and now copyright. All of them in the last 12 months. In all of them you have lost because your arguments apart from baseless and without research, are made for the sole purpose to troll.

Fool yourself if you like thinking this is "constructive criticism", you must know it's not because of your lack of knowledge about every topic. If you don't like the way MAME is handled feel free to make your own emulator, set your own rules and participate in "not your own" forums the proper way. No one is forcing you to post here or use MAME. Thanks.



Cable
retro gamer
Reged: 08/30/08
Posts: 131
Loc: UK
Send PM


Re: Unwanted attention [Re: ]
#262884 - 08/24/11 11:46 AM


Ok you have made your point some might agree, plenty others dont. Either way its time to drop it because if you continue to keep it going then it will be clear that now your just trying to wind everybody up!



R. Belmont
Cookoo for Konami
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 9556
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
Send PM


Re: Unwanted attention [Re: Smitdogg]
#262900 - 08/24/11 05:16 PM


> Aaron thought 3 years before adding to MAME. I guess I'd go with 7ish. Some other people
> would say 10 etc. Whoopidee doo.

The chances of the creators of a game (ie, the programmers, artists, and designers) seeing any money from it after 18 months *on sale* are near zero. Royalties are basically unheard of in the industry. (And yes, this is direct personal experience talking). So waiting 3 years after it's *no longer on sale* is ethically clean from where I'm standing.



SmitdoggAdministrator
Reged: 09/18/03
Posts: 15777
Send PM


Re: Unwanted attention [Re: R. Belmont]
#262901 - 08/24/11 05:29 PM


The way I see it is for years video games were seen as disposable. These arcade games came out and people fell in love with them and then they were just wiped out of existence, you can never see them again. Society didn't accept this and that's why emulation is where it is. It's today's art form and society isn't going to let people make some art, make us love it, and then pull it out from under us indefinitely. It's not going to happen. We won't accept that. It doesn't matter if some douche bag wrote a law saying otherwise 100 years ago. I don't care what that asshole said or wrote. As for where to draw the line, everyone has a different opinion. I could say to you well maybe the companies need a couple of more years or else they might get fed up and dismantle and then the programmer wouldn't have a job, or I could say well the whole hierarchy needs to be redone. Whatever though, we have no power to change it. Not at this time anyway.



Anonymous
Unregistered
Send PM


Re: Unwanted attention [Re: Moose]
#262925 - 08/24/11 10:58 PM



Quote:


> > If the company wishes to protect a console version, they can contact us just as
> Cave
> > > and Arika have in the past. (In Arika's case, they made more copies of the game
> > than
> > > Xbox 360s have ever sold in Japan, with predictable 2600 ET-like results, but
> > MAMEdev
> > > did remove the games as we were asked).
> >
> > But then nobody decided to ask them first, they just did it, and only did you
> remove
> > it, after the fact. Right?
> >
> > I do not see that as a positive.
> >
> > Sorry no kudos for you.
>
> You might like to rethink things.
>
> Plenty of people have asked the "major" companies. Not a single one as far as I can
> tell has ever said "Yes". There is either no answer (which implies "No") or else
> there is a definite "No".
>
> Here's one example: In the very early days of arcade emulation, Dave Spicer
> (Sparcade) and I exchanged many, many dozens (perhaps 100's) of emails. In 1995/96, I
> offered a lot of money (think 6 figures !) to back him to take his arcade emulator
> and make it a commercial product with 100% legal / licensed games. The BIG problem -
> and the reason the project never went commercial - was the permissions. No-one would
> grant any. No-one even wanted to discuss money / licensing fees. No-one would talk
> about it. The "right person" was never there to talk to. No-one would answer letters.
> No-one would return phone calls. They just wanted to sit on their IP. Their focus was
> the future. Not old or ancient games from their past.
>
> If people asked before emulating, then there would be ZERO emulation. Many of the
> games supported by projects like MAME are preserved ONLY because these projects saved
> them, and often they were saved just in time. Many games would already be lost to
> oblivion if things were left to the IP holders. In many cases, they don't even have a
> backup of their source code.
>
> The fact that there are now some freeware games for MAME doesn't mean anything. These
> were only released long after MAME had become a success (emulating dozens of games,
> with wide distribution).
>
> If MAME had been a project that was still trying to emulate it's first game with full
> permission of the IP owner, and had approached any of the very nice people who have
> now released their games as freeware, then would they have said "YES" ?
>
> I'm all for you doing research about this for your thesis. However, you need to keep
> an open mind. It sounds like you have already decided on what your answers are, long
> before you've done the research and probably long before you have even thought what
> the real questions should be.
>
> Where are your interviews with emulator devs, IP holders, etc ? Where are your
> surveys of these people ? Where's your literature review ? Where have you tested your
> claims ? e.g. write to a selection of IP holders to ask them about licensing their
> games for your own hypothetical emulation project, and see how far you get. Then, and
> only then, will you know what the real situation is.
>
> If you are coming to conclusions, you'd better have solid evidence to backup all of
> your findings, or your thesis wont be worth anything.




I totally agree with your point, but even I do "agree" I cannot conduct research with personal opinions. I have to extend both views of the argument and tell the story accordingly. I personally do not care either way, but I must ask the questions just like a professional reporter or researcher does.



Naoki
Reged: 11/10/09
Posts: 1980
Loc: UK
Send PM


Re: Unwanted attention [Re: ]
#262926 - 08/24/11 11:04 PM


Researching, reporting, all it looks like is trolling from you to me. You have been given your answer, now go off and play.



Anonymous
Unregistered
Send PM


Re: Unwanted attention [Re: Smitdogg]
#262927 - 08/24/11 11:15 PM



Quote:


> Everybody has a different perfect world of copyrights and music/movie/video game
> preservation opinion. Why it is that you think yours is better than everyone else's
> to the point of pulling out your dick on our forum and taking a urination that would
> impress a recently thawed out Austin Powers is a better question than the trolling
> horse shit you are producing. If you have a vastly different opinion than everyone in
> a community then you probably don't belong in that community even if you are writing
> a thesis on them. You don't see me ranting on a vegan board about how they should eat
> meat. You think companies should be dead before their games are emulated. Aaron
> thought 3 years before adding to MAME. I guess I'd go with 7ish. Some other people
> would say 10 etc. Whoopidee doo. Why don't you write a chapter on drug companies
> getting less than 5 years to sell their IP before it gets legally bootlegged and how
> video games should still be 100 before there is an emulator for their hardware
> because some retard wrote a law about it before video games even existed. Can't wait
> to read it...





Good point, but I have a few questions:

Why does the USA have copyright laws written into the Constitution?

Does your suggestion (being so important to this site) of copyright, be so construed, to have no legal duristinction like your argument suggests?

So copyright laws have no merit in your opinion and therefore have no moral obligation?

Does this stem from the belief that media should be free on the internet?

Thanks.



Anonymous
Unregistered
Send PM


Re: Let's check some of your troll history.... [Re: BIOS-D]
#262928 - 08/24/11 11:25 PM



Quote:


> > Exactly what a Mame Fanboy troll would come up with.
>
> Quick search, user: Bizimonki. Time consumed: 2 minutes.
>
> Most of your messages are related to how MAME handles itself. Either coding (stupid C
> vs C++ argument), direction (H*z* vs. Aaron Giles), platform (Windows and any other
> OS vs. build your own MAME OS from scratch and make games run faster), performance
> ("every new build should be like running 0.83 on my P3, why upgrade?"), games
> inclusion ("coin pushers on MAME? no way") and now copyright. All of them in the last
> 12 months. In all of them you have lost because your arguments apart from baseless
> and without research, are made for the sole purpose to troll.
>
> Fool yourself if you like thinking this is "constructive criticism", you must know
> it's not because of your lack of knowledge about every topic. If you don't like the
> way MAME is handled feel free to make your own emulator, set your own rules and
> participate in "not your own" forums the proper way. No one is forcing you to post
> here or use MAME. Thanks.




Where to start...

P3 performance = emulator research (Moore(s) law)

C or C++ and optimization = emulator coding background.

Project Direction = emulator research (background)

Emulator creation = I *will* have to attempt coding a basic emulator.

Trolling? I'll let you decide since you are such an expert. But I could write about how the subjects raised in a controlled forum met with some disdain.



Anonymous
Unregistered
Send PM


Re: Unwanted attention [Re: Cable]
#262929 - 08/24/11 11:31 PM



Quote:


> Ok you have made your point some might agree, plenty others dont. Either way its time
> to drop it because if you continue to keep it going then it will be clear that now
> your just trying to wind everybody up!





Oh I do believe I have seen more daggers come out on this topic than others, but I have more than enough information from this exchange. In keeping I have more than enough to review and research including the many many other related websites on the subject.

I'm sure those who quietly lurk and do not contribute have their fair share of confirmed knowledge on the subject too.



SmitdoggAdministrator
Reged: 09/18/03
Posts: 15777
Send PM


Re: Unwanted attention [Re: ]
#262930 - 08/24/11 11:33 PM


> > Everybody has a different perfect world of copyrights and music/movie/video game
> > preservation opinion. Why it is that you think yours is better than everyone else's
> > to the point of pulling out your dick on our forum and taking a urination that
> would
> > impress a recently thawed out Austin Powers is a better question than the trolling
> > horse shit you are producing. If you have a vastly different opinion than everyone
> in
> > a community then you probably don't belong in that community even if you are
> writing
> > a thesis on them. You don't see me ranting on a vegan board about how they should
> eat
> > meat. You think companies should be dead before their games are emulated. Aaron
> > thought 3 years before adding to MAME. I guess I'd go with 7ish. Some other people
> > would say 10 etc. Whoopidee doo. Why don't you write a chapter on drug companies
> > getting less than 5 years to sell their IP before it gets legally bootlegged and
> how
> > video games should still be 100 before there is an emulator for their hardware
> > because some retard wrote a law about it before video games even existed. Can't
> wait
> > to read it...
>
>
> Good point, but I have a few questions:
>
> Why does the USA have copyright laws written into the Constitution?

So they can be amended.

> Does your suggestion (being so important to this site) of copyright, be so construed,
> to have no legal duristinction like your argument suggests?

It has logical and human jurisdiction. There's the law and there's what's right, and we're not going to let the games die, which many would have already if we hadn't moved our ass and taken the situation into our own hands.

> So copyright laws have no merit in your opinion and therefore have no moral
> obligation?

In the case of arcade games, they're unacceptable by a responsible society that cares about the preservation of their culture and art. If we waited to make a copy of them until after the copyright ran out, they would be unreadable. All of them. So there is absolutely no way to stay within the current law and not have future generations want to piss on our graves.

> Does this stem from the belief that media should be free on the internet?

No. I don't even think it should all be "free" to everyone, I just think a group of people should be able to back the stuff up on hard drives around the world and people who own the real hardware should be able to play on their computer. MAME allows for a backup catalog where enough people can share parts of the workload to where most people don't get burned out and people stay interested in the goal. The more rules that get added the more of a pain in the butt it will be, and if we have to deal with something as retarded as 100 years or whatever it is (close to it) then they just get ignored.



BIOS-D
MAME Fan
Reged: 08/07/06
Posts: 1551
Send PM


Re: Let's check some of your troll history.... new [Re: ]
#262935 - 08/25/11 12:51 AM


> Where to start...
>
> P3 performance = emulator research (Moore(s) law)
>
> C or C++ and optimization = emulator coding background.
>
> Project Direction = emulator research (background)
>
> Emulator creation = I *will* have to attempt coding a basic emulator.
>
> Trolling? I'll let you decide since you are such an expert. But I could write about
> how the subjects raised in a controlled forum met with some disdain.

Which means you know nothing about the subject, you're just a programmer on paper. I stand corrected, you are not only trolling but also have lost every argument because you don't have experience and believe everything books teach you work in a real environment without flaws. Go grab any open source emulator and optimize it yourself with your "emulating coding background" and "Moore's law" skills, then talk later.

However, since you're only a paper programmer. You might like to read this and with some luck understand why emulators get slower when the purpose is accuracy:

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2011/...s-emulator.ars/



StevieWunderful
Reged: 11/19/04
Posts: 115
Loc: NY
Send PM


Reality Check [Re: ]
#262960 - 08/25/11 08:08 AM


I think you should realize the other point of view...

I once was a part of a project to make a sequel to Marble Madness. We thought we may possibly be able to sell it... so I called up Midway, whom at the time was owner of the IP.

Midway put me in touch with their a-hole IP guy, whom confirmed their ownership. Stated that Midway does not share IP, does not license IP. Said that if they were going to take a game in, they would re-program it themselves and sell it themselves.

That they would not be making a new MM, because it was considered a puzzle game, and that puzzle games do poorly. Poor selling games have to be sent back to them, and thus they acquire a huge loss.

So, even though they were never going to do anything with it, they would sit on the License, and let it ROT.

Ask them if they would want to Save the game by dumping the Arcade game roms? They will tell you No Way. Not because they will lose money, not because they would ever do anything with the rom... but because they just dont care.

They dont make any real money on old games, and there is no policy set up for preservation. Their only interest is making new games. And making the most money possible.

As for a games preservation... I think the time limit should be at least 5yrs, not 3. Its can take at least a year to cross the sea. At least one year for the Ops to make their money back with some profit. One yr to make a decent profit before things turn cold. And the game can still earn for a few yrs, even though at a seriously reduced income.

(I used to manage a mall Arcade for 3yrs)

Now, if it were my Company, I would send the team a notice to keep it from being emulated. But then again, I would also have a way from people to access that material for a fair price. And possibly when it was over 30yrs old, released as public domain. (info kept, dumped ahead of time)

If Companies were responsible, cared about their works, had a preservation system... then none of this argument would be necessary. However, the people who run the companies are money men. They have no creativity. They have no real interest in things created. They only care about money.

The people who created the games may be passionate.. but even they often have no say or way to preserve their creations. Only through Illegal theft of company property, have many of these creators been able to preserve things that were scheduled to be dumped into the trash.

Legality isnt always moral and just.

And the issue of IP isnt as black and white as you may believe it to be.



etabeta
Reged: 08/25/04
Posts: 2035
Send PM


Re: Let's check some of your troll history.... new [Re: ]
#262962 - 08/25/11 09:30 AM


that is only true for your first posts of each topic.

after the initial inquiries, you systematically try to force people on agreeing on your point of view even if it is not supported by facts and even if you are presented clear reasons for different points of view being definitely more solid (see the C/C++ thread)



R. Belmont
Cookoo for Konami
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 9556
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
Send PM


Re: Reality Check new [Re: StevieWunderful]
#262977 - 08/25/11 05:46 PM


> That they would not be making a new MM, because it was considered a puzzle game, and
> that puzzle games do poorly. Poor selling games have to be sent back to them, and
> thus they acquire a huge loss.

Sounds about right. Fast-forward to now, and what's making megabucks on websites and phones? Puzzle games



R. Belmont
Cookoo for Konami
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 9556
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
Send PM


Re: Unwanted attention new [Re: ]
#262978 - 08/25/11 05:48 PM


> I'm sure those who quietly lurk and do not contribute have their fair share of
> confirmed knowledge on the subject too.

Ahh, yes, the classic "everyone who doesn't post agrees with me" gambit. Always deployed by people are see their arguments get beaten down and have no defense.



Gatinho
Tetris Mason
Reged: 04/20/07
Posts: 5759
Loc: Sector 9
Send PM


Re: Let's check some of your troll history.... new [Re: ]
#262981 - 08/25/11 07:23 PM


If I understood correctly... you're writing a thesis... which usually implies a PhD in the works...

"I am writing my thesis on arcade emulation"

Forgive me for being blunt... but it sounds like you are writting a thesis on a topic you are not expert in... which is usually the case. Your topic should be in your field of expertise, you demonstrate that by writting a thesis on your topic of expertise, and you are awarded a doctoral degree to acknowledge your expertise.

You've never written an emulator... you just follow an emulation forum. I want a PhD too, I've been following here longer than you.

ETA: Meh... the question comes across as mean spirited... I'd delete it but it's already replied to, so I'll just apologize for it. I was reacting from a disdain for the postgraduate training environment in general, not so much as a personal jab on you.



Edited by Gatinho (08/26/11 01:12 AM)



Olivier Galibert
Semi-Lurker
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 337
Send PM


Re: Let's check some of your troll history.... new [Re: Gatinho]
#262987 - 08/25/11 08:09 PM


> If I understood correctly... you're writing a thesis... which usually implies a PhD
> in the works...
>
> "I am writing my thesis on arcade emulation"
>
> Forgive me for being blunt... but it sounds like you are writting a thesis on a topic
> you are not expert in... which is usually the case. Your topic should be in your
> field of expertise, you demonstrate that by writting a thesis on your topic of
> expertise, and you are awarded a doctoral degree to acknowledge your expertise.

Actually, a PhD means that you can do research, not that you're an expert on the specific field yet (or ever).

OG.



Olivier Galibert
Semi-Lurker
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 337
Send PM


Re: Let's check some of your troll history.... new [Re: etabeta]
#262988 - 08/25/11 08:11 PM


> that is only true for your first posts of each topic.
>
> after the initial inquiries, you systematically try to force people on agreeing on
> your point of view even if it is not supported by facts and even if you are presented
> clear reasons for different points of view being definitely more solid (see the C/C++
> thread)

Actually in the C/C++ thread he backpedalled hard once his supervisor confirmed that people with 30+ years of experience in the field do have a clue about what they're doing.

OG.



Cable
retro gamer
Reged: 08/30/08
Posts: 131
Loc: UK
Send PM


Re: Let's check some of your troll history.... [Re: Gatinho]
#262990 - 08/25/11 08:22 PM


Me too!



Anonymous
Unregistered
Send PM


Re: Let's check some of your troll history.... [Re: BIOS-D]
#262995 - 08/25/11 09:42 PM


> >
Quote:


Where to start...
> >
> > P3 performance = emulator research (Moore(s) law)
> >
> > C or C++ and optimization = emulator coding background.
> >
> > Project Direction = emulator research (background)
> >
> > Emulator creation = I *will* have to attempt coding a basic emulator.
> >
> > Trolling? I'll let you decide since you are such an expert. But I could write about
> > how the subjects raised in a controlled forum met with some disdain.
>
> Which means you know nothing about the subject, you're just a programmer on paper. I
> stand corrected, you are not only trolling but also have lost every argument because
> you don't have experience and believe everything books teach you work in a real
> environment without flaws. Go grab any open source emulator and optimize it yourself
> with your "emulating coding background" and "Moore's law" skills, then talk later.
>
> However, since you're only a paper programmer. You might like to read this and with
> some luck understand why emulators get slower when the purpose is accuracy:
>
> http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2011/...s-emulator.ars/






Yes I understand your point of view, so sticks and stones mate. An arcade emulator written in assembler is faster than one written in C++. True or false?

I like the debate, but I got enough for now, I'll surprise you with some more at a much later date.

I'll look at coding a NES emulator, as there is enough documentation on the subject already. I will look at your reference (as you seem to be the only one providing references) link, with thanks in advance.



Anonymous
Unregistered
Send PM


Re: Unwanted attention [Re: R. Belmont]
#262996 - 08/25/11 09:47 PM


> > I'm sure those who quietly lurk and do not contribute have their fair share of
> > confirmed knowledge on the subject too.
>
> Ahh, yes, the classic "everyone who doesn't post agrees with me" gambit. Always
> deployed by people are see their arguments get beaten down and have no defense.

Well no, that is what I was implying, but thanks for yet another funny quote from the legendary Mr. R. Belmont.



R. Belmont
Cookoo for Konami
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 9556
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
Send PM


Re: Let's check some of your troll history.... [Re: Olivier Galibert]
#262997 - 08/25/11 09:47 PM


> Actually in the C/C++ thread he backpedaled hard once his supervisor confirmed that
> people with 30+ years of experience in the field do have a clue about what they're
> doing.

Which is why it's insane that he's playing out the same scenario again. As if he's the first person ever to think about the legal/moral/ethical implications of emulation.

Back here in reality, lots of people have thought about those things. Those that are comfortable with the implications are MAME users, developers, and contributors. Those that aren't, aren't.



R. Belmont
Cookoo for Konami
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 9556
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
Send PM


Re: Let's check some of your troll history.... new [Re: ]
#262998 - 08/25/11 09:49 PM


> Yes I understand your point of view, so sticks and stones mate. An arcade emulator
> written in assembler is faster than one written in C++. True or false?

Ask your professor if quicksort in C++ is slower than bubblesort in assembly. As we tried to tell you last time, algorithm trumps implementation.



Anonymous
Unregistered
Send PM


Re: Reality Check new [Re: StevieWunderful]
#262999 - 08/25/11 09:56 PM


Well what about the IP for other products, like gambling machines? PacMan has several products that still being created with its image.

How many games were sold for consoles with old arcade games?

What would their sales be like if there was no MAME?

I would think that there would be less sales before Mame, and that these collections are a by product of the emulator experience.



Anonymous
Unregistered
Send PM


Re: Let's check some of your troll history.... new [Re: R. Belmont]
#263001 - 08/25/11 10:09 PM


>
Quote:



> Ask your professor if quicksort in C++ is slower than bubblesort in assembly. As we
> tried to tell you last time, algorithm trumps implementation.




Is quicksort stable enough to use versus bubblesort?

What I found: "Unstable sorting algorithms may change the relative order of records with equal keys, but stable sorting algorithms never do so."

C++ might is faster, but assembler is more accurate?

Is that what you mean?



R. Belmont
Cookoo for Konami
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 9556
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
Send PM


Re: Let's check some of your troll history.... new [Re: ]
#263004 - 08/25/11 10:39 PM


> C++ might is faster, but assembler is more accurate?
>
> Is that what you mean?

No. I'm saying that the large-scale performance characteristics of a program don't rely on the implementation details, which includes the implementation language. They rely on the large-scale architecture. A hand-coded assembly CPU interpreter is going to run an order of magnitude slower than a dynamic recompiler written in C++.



R. Belmont
Cookoo for Konami
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 9556
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
Send PM


Re: Reality Check new [Re: ]
#263005 - 08/25/11 10:53 PM


> What would their sales be like if there was no MAME?

Actually, there's not a lot of evidence that hobbyist emulation does much to this stuff. Classics packs and the like (Nintendo's Virtual Console, Sony's PSOne Classics) have sold steadily in spite of the easy availability of emulators. Why? Because it's infinitely easier to use, and a completely different experience all around. No ROMs to find, no settings to configure, the emulator involved has been professionally QAed, you play on your big-screen home theater which probably has far superior speakers to your PC, and you sit on a nice comfy sofa instead of a hard office-style chair. Plus your 360/PS3/Wii are guaranteed to always be fast enough, and the games don't take up space on your computer.

Additionally, a lot of official classics have online capability, trophies/achievements, and remixed graphics, sound, and difficulty choices. MAME offers only online out of those things, and even that's a less polished experience compared to Xbox Live or PSN.

> I would think that there would be less sales before Mame, and that these collections
> are a by product of the emulator experience.

Nope. The only thing we've observed a direct sales effect on from emulation is the price of used PCBs on eBay. Undumped games typically fetch a much higher price (sellers even often put "not in MAME" in the description), and that price typically falls immediately when Guru or Smit announces a new dump. (There are exceptions: games that are extremely rare will sometimes be worth *more* after people can see it running in the emulation and decide that they want one).



StevieWunderful
Reged: 11/19/04
Posts: 115
Loc: NY
Send PM


Re: Reality Check [Re: ]
#263025 - 08/26/11 03:46 AM


Well what about the IP for other products, like gambling machines? PacMan has several products that still being created with its image.

- I dont even know what you mean. Just because mame emulates MS Pacman, does not change sales of new Pacman sequals or Gambling games themed with Ms Pacman.

How many games were sold for consoles with old arcade games?

What would their sales be like if there was no MAME?

I would think that there would be less sales before Mame, and that these collections are a by product of the emulator experience.

- Some companies have had mild success selling old ports. However, the biggest problem with them, is that they are usually lacking in some area.

- Marble Madness for example, does not have Dual Trackball support on any Console. In fact, most of the Ports of MM were re-programmed. Meaning, they were Not the original masterpieces. Changed graphics, inferior sounds, inferior controls, inferior mathematical formulas and even changed difficulties. There have been complete butchery of classics.

Ever play Tempest and Arkanoid with their Spinner controls? Its blasphemous to play port versions with joysticks. It controls like BUTT.. and is completely worthless.


Should people decide not to save the originals because some A-hole company exec decides he wants to feed people some inferior version? While at the same time, all the original PCBs are failing, the company having NO rom backups, no programming printouts, not even the Artwork for the games... Its basically Doomed to be destroyed from history, because of Ignorance and legality that defends that ignorance.



StevieWunderful
Reged: 11/19/04
Posts: 115
Loc: NY
Send PM


Re: Reality Check [Re: R. Belmont]
#263026 - 08/26/11 04:01 AM


Yeah, I almost feel like contacting that JackA$$ and rubbing it in.

But anyways, thats how ip lawyers and corporate money men think.

A few games tank, so they decide never to invest in that genre ... rather than look into the real reasons why the game tanked.

MM Sequel done correct, has tremendous potential to be a smash hit... Unlike some box sliding puzzle game.

Then again, that also proves another point.. is that games are too expensive. Many of the indie and phone games are cheap... so people will give them a shot, because its not such a big hit to the pocketbook.

Reduce full content game prices, and sales will more than cover any losses from higher profit margins lost. Personally, I cant afford to buy games anymore, even if I actually Liked a game. Which is kinda good, cause nobody has been making much anything worth buying anyways.

The Music industry should have also followed the same advice. A cd for $5 will sell 10 times that of a 10 to 20$ cd. Maybe even more. The music industry could have skyrocketed by lowering prices. Instead, they choose to raise prices, put rootkits in cds, reduce cds output quality, and finally sue music fans... when fans have pretty much had it with their crap.

Rant /Off



StevieWunderful
Reged: 11/19/04
Posts: 115
Loc: NY
Send PM


Re: Unwanted attention [Re: ]
#263027 - 08/26/11 04:12 AM


There are many Laws which are not really Moral. In fact, there are far to many intentional loopholes, made to serve the people who BUY the Lawmakers.

Just because something is Legal doesnt make it right or moral.

Much like Patent Trolling.

Wacom may pay a team of 10 people to crank out vague patents, and because of it, blocks all competition out of the marketplace. Instead of innovation, it sticks with the bare minimal spec, because it simply Can do so without threat.

Getting a proper patent is Expensive, as is defended it properly. No singular person stands much of a chance (unless they are wealthy, or have great connections). And even many other companies simply cant compete either. Especially if they dont have as deep of pockets.

In this world, its less about right and wrong, and much more about Money, Power, and Greed. Sad, but True.



StevieWunderful
Reged: 11/19/04
Posts: 115
Loc: NY
Send PM


Re: Unwanted attention new [Re: R. Belmont]
#263032 - 08/26/11 05:34 AM


Thats not how the Coin Op business works.

Firstly, the Company makes the money, not the Artists, programmers, etc...

2ndly, in order for the Arcade Companies to survive, they need Ops to set up games. If you take away the Ops ability to make profits, which can take a few yrs to make up... then you effectively screwed over the ability for the Op to buy a new game... and thus effectively screwed over the Game Company, who is trying to sell new games.

Have you ever saw how much some of these games are "NEW"???

Im not talking a KIT, Im talking a Full monty arcade machine. Check out the Sit Down prices. It will Shock you. Then, try to imagine not only paying that all off, but then actually making a profit.

3yrs is a very short timespan from Company to Op.
Too Short.



StevieWunderful
Reged: 11/19/04
Posts: 115
Loc: NY
Send PM


Reality Check part 2 RB Edition [Re: StevieWunderful]
#263033 - 08/26/11 05:56 AM


Recent BMI Gaming Pricing list:

$ 46975 Aqua Race Extreme 4D / 5D
$ 15475 Dead Heat Street Racing
$ 24575 Dido Cart 2p w/ motion
$ 16475 Harley Davidson King Of The Road
$ 17975 Hummer Extreme Ed.
$ 7475 Fast and the Furious Super Cars

Even at the busiest locations, how long do you think it would take to pay off a $7000 single seat game... let alone the dual and deluxe games w/ motion, that rise up to and over $46000 ???

Do you really think 3yrs will cut it?

Edited by xiaou2 (08/26/11 06:01 AM)



B2K24
Evolution is a mystery
Reged: 10/25/10
Posts: 2454
Send PM


Re: Reality Check part 2 RB Edition new [Re: StevieWunderful]
#263041 - 08/26/11 08:11 AM


> Recent BMI Gaming Pricing list:
>
> $ 46975 Aqua Race Extreme 4D / 5D
> $ 15475 Dead Heat Street Racing
> $ 24575 Dido Cart 2p w/ motion
> $ 16475 Harley Davidson King Of The Road
> $ 17975 Hummer Extreme Ed.
> $ 7475 Fast and the Furious Super Cars
>
> Even at the busiest locations, how long do you think it would take to pay off a
> $7000 single seat game... let alone the dual and deluxe games w/ motion, that rise up
> to and over $46000 ???
>
> Do you really think 3yrs will cut it?

Where are you getting these numbers from exactly?

It really doesn't matter if you're talking about an establishment with brand new Arcade machines or if your speaking of a retail store with shelves packed with clothes and other cheap crap with the same inventory retail amount.

The bottom line is, people of today are not spending money or even indulging in the same activities as others did 10 - 30 years ago. People habits have changed.

If you interviewed most teens around, most couldn't even tell you what an emulator or MAME even is nowadays. I have tried to get my son and his friends to play MAME or other emulators ( Hyperspin, GameEX setups with all the bells and whistles) and they simply aren't interested. They would rather jump on 360, ps3, facebook, youtube, cellphones, netflix, etc.

For people to say the 3 year rule or stuff added to MAME is killing sales is pure bullshit. I would still support Arcades and play the real hardware while inserting quarters into machines even if the said games is 100% accurate in MAME, because NOTHING can replace playing the real thing or replicate the Arcade atmosphere of many people lining up at a machine.



StevieWunderful
Reged: 11/19/04
Posts: 115
Loc: NY
Send PM


Re: Reality Check part 2 RB Edition [Re: B2K24]
#263043 - 08/26/11 09:14 AM


The numbers are from BMI GAMING. http://www.bmigaming.com/


Quote:


It really doesn't matter if you're talking about an establishment with brand new Arcade machines or if your speaking of a retail store with shelves packed with clothes and other cheap crap with the same inventory retail amount.

The bottom line is, people of today are not spending money or even indulging in the same activities as others did 10 - 30 years ago. People habits have changed.




Firstly, it DOES matter about what type of establishment we are talking about... because Clothing, and Coin Op sales are completely unrelated.

A retailer makes their money selling a cheap pair of socks, and that sells immediately.

An Arcade Company makes their sales within a year or two, and THEN, the arcade Operators (Ops), have to then try to make money with the machine... which can take several years to do so.

Its a long term investment with many of the machines. However, when game companies started coming out with Console Ports in a fairly short timeframe.. the Ops were getting screwed, because early loss of interest. Where as IF the game was wasnt ported as quickly, more people would have played it in the arcade, rather than mostly at home.
As such, they either LOST money on the investment, and or it took much much longer to make any profit at all.

Eventually this leads to not being able to buy NEW games... and thus, (coupled with crappy games that had no real challenge) ,the Arcade Industry pretty much began to crumble out of existence.

I LIVED it. Managed a fairly busy Mall Arcade owned by Namco. So Im very clear on how things work. You however, seem to be more of a fanboy of the games, rather than really wanting to know the truth... you just want to Bend the truth to suit your desire to play games sooner than later.


Quote:


If you interviewed most teens around, most couldn't even tell you what an emulator or MAME even is nowadays.




BULLCRAP. Kids today are More aware of emulators than any generation before it. Yeah, they are on their xboxes... with Jtagged pirated games and emulators packed in to boot.

Almost every single portable device that is capable, is being used to put emulators on it, and they are doing so.


Quote:


For people to say the 3 year rule or stuff added to MAME is killing sales is pure bullshit.




More Bullcrap. As said before, being an Op is a long term investment. If mame decides to emulate a racing game thats 3yrs out, and the Op got it after the 1st yr it was out in Japan... that means he may have paid well over $7000, and now only has 2yrs to not only get that money back... but to turn a profit. The more exposure and play that game gets in emulation, the less people have a desire to actually go and play it at their location. That plain and simple fact,
even if You are one of the few who dont feel that way.



Quote:


because NOTHING can replace playing the real thing




Actually, not everyone cares about exacting experience, so long as its cheap (free). Also, there are ways to get the experience at home, with real controls interfaced, to be equal to or even superior, to the arcade machines.


Tell you what... go buy a $43,000 game, and try to make money on it. And Mame will intentionally emulate it in 3yrs time. We shall see how you feel about this, at the 3rd yr, when you are not even 3/4 way to paying the machine off. Every quarter Counts... and every Lost quarter, is a dent in YOUR Wallet.

Both my location, as well as 2 other busier arcades, all closed down within the last 10yr period. Namco's arcades are closing all over the USA, and arcades as a whole, are almost completely gone. Many of the Ops who put single games in shops... are getting out of the Business, if they havent left already.

The main fault isnt emulation. Its much more complex than that. However, emulating a game too soon, only hastens the process of killing off the remaining arcade industry.



etabeta
Reged: 08/25/04
Posts: 2035
Send PM


Re: Reality Check part 2 RB Edition new [Re: StevieWunderful]
#263044 - 08/26/11 09:47 AM


> More Bullcrap. As said before, being an Op is a long term investment. If mame decides
> to emulate a racing game thats 3yrs out, and the Op got it after the 1st yr it was
> out in Japan... that means he may have paid well over $7000, and now only has 2yrs to
> not only get that money back... but to turn a profit.

erm... unless that game uses some 10 years old technology (e.g. model 2 hardware), there is no way that the game would run full speed on a computer under MAME.

I agree that probably kids would play the game full speed the PS3/XBOX360 port rather than go to the arcades, but for sure they would not play it through MAME, not even if they could get access to a CERN supercomputer...



Cable
retro gamer
Reged: 08/30/08
Posts: 131
Loc: UK
Send PM


Re: Reality Check part 2 RB Edition [Re: etabeta]
#263045 - 08/26/11 12:29 PM


Your absolutely right! 3 years after its release it can go into mame. For a start theres a bloody good chance it will take years to work out how to emulate it properly. Then you would have to have some kind of super computer to even attempt to run it at a playable speed. Dumping it while its alive for full playable emulation many years down the line seems fine to me and certainly long enough for everybody to make money on them.



R. Belmont
Cookoo for Konami
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 9556
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
Send PM


Re: Reality Check part 2 RB Edition [Re: Cable]
#263060 - 08/26/11 04:28 PM


> Your absolutely right! 3 years after its release it can go into mame.

Let me just correct this: the MAME rule is 3 years after something *stops* being sold.

And xiaou2 is shooting at the wrong target: any arcade game that earns at all these days is immediately slapped onto consoles, often while they're still selling the cabinets. And usually the console version is superior for all the reasons I enumerated elsewhere on this thread: XBL/PSN online, achievements, etc, etc.



B2K24
Evolution is a mystery
Reged: 10/25/10
Posts: 2454
Send PM


Re: Reality Check part 2 RB Edition [Re: StevieWunderful]
#263070 - 08/26/11 05:39 PM



Quote:


Tell you what... go buy a $43,000 game, and try to make money on it. And Mame will intentionally emulate it in 3yrs time. We shall see how you feel about this, at the 3rd yr, when you are not even 3/4 way to paying the machine off. Every quarter Counts... and every Lost quarter, is a dent in YOUR Wallet.




Instead of dropping 5 figures on some Harley Davidson piece of crap or whatever it is that nobody cares playing, why not heavily advertise or interview all your past customers and conduct polls relating to there favorite Arcade games or what they still wish to currently play and support, then spend the money on the top few machines that got the most votes/interest as requested by your customer base or majority of people nearby the establishments area.


Quote:


Both my location, as well as 2 other busier arcades, all closed down within the last 10yr period. Namco's arcades are closing all over the USA, and arcades as a whole, are almost completely gone. Many of the Ops who put single games in shops... are getting out of the Business, if they havent left already.




Advancements in technology and more choices in electronics give the mass majority of the public less reasons to leave the house and support Arcades. When they do wish to leave the house then it's to do something else rather than visit and support Arcades. Blaming MAME for this is wrong.



SmitdoggAdministrator
Reged: 09/18/03
Posts: 15777
Send PM


Re: Reality Check part 2 RB Edition new [Re: B2K24]
#263071 - 08/26/11 05:45 PM


Well, people are going to play the Harley game just to sit on the bike and see what it's like, and casual arcade visitors aren't going to fill out a survey, and I would imagine most arcades these days wouldn't pay $20000+ for anything. They would more likely rent it for a year.



SmitdoggAdministrator
Reged: 09/18/03
Posts: 15777
Send PM


Re: Reality Check part 2 RB Edition [Re: R. Belmont]
#263073 - 08/26/11 05:48 PM


That can't be right. We don't have records for when games stopped being sold.



R. Belmont
Cookoo for Konami
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 9556
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
Send PM


Re: Reality Check part 2 RB Edition new [Re: Smitdogg]
#263074 - 08/26/11 05:53 PM


> That can't be right. We don't have records for when games stopped being sold.

It's easier to look up than you'd think, at least for modern (ie, post-2005) games.



SmitdoggAdministrator
Reged: 09/18/03
Posts: 15777
Send PM


Re: Reality Check part 2 RB Edition new [Re: R. Belmont]
#263075 - 08/26/11 05:57 PM


Well then Illvelo was sold for a couple of weeks? And I guess you are talking about manufacturer sales instead of distributor. Anyway, I don't dump stuff that new anyway so it's not my headache.



StevieWunderful
Reged: 11/19/04
Posts: 115
Loc: NY
Send PM


Re: Reality Check part 2 RB Edition new [Re: B2K24]
#263089 - 08/26/11 10:19 PM



Quote:


Instead of dropping 5 figures on some Harley Davidson piece of crap or whatever it is that nobody cares playing, why not heavily advertise or interview all your past customers and conduct polls relating to there favorite Arcade games or what they still wish to currently play and support, then spend the money on the top few machines that got the most votes/interest as requested by your customer base or majority of people nearby the establishments area




Firstly, I didnt buy the games, that was Namco. However, as far as I know, most Ops rarely do get to test a game before purchase. Nor would you be able to gather votes on what to buy. Im going to guess, that if you dont buy a game in a set time period, there may be a delay, and availability problem.

Furthermore, the Most earnings come from it being Brand New. The longer you wait, the less money you may end up getting.

Still, my offer stands. Buy whatever New game, at least in the $7000 range.. and see how long it takes to pay it off, then make a profit.


Quote:


Advancements in technology and more choices in electronics give the mass majority of the public less reasons to leave the house and support Arcades. When they do wish to leave the house then it's to do something else rather than visit and support Arcades. Blaming MAME for this is wrong.




Im not blaming Mame for the failures in the industry. However, I AM Telling you that Mame can effect the industry negatively. And Ive given you the exact reasons twice now.


Pages: 1 | 2 |

MAMEWorld Central >> EmuChat
View all threads Index   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Extra information Permissions
Moderator:  redk9258, URherenow, Tafoid 
0 registered and 36 anonymous users are browsing this forum.
You cannot start new topics
You cannot reply to topics
HTML is enabled
UBBCode is enabled
Thread views: 11975