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russ h.
Reged: 12/19/03
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Visual Pinmame 2.4 released.
#263302 - 08/29/11 06:08 PM


Changes:

*** CORE/CPU ***
Atari sound has been improved [Gerrit Volkenborn/Pascal Janin]
GamePlan Lady Sharpshooter's solenoids now work 100%
Added support for Jeutel - fully emulated with sound and speech [Gerrit Volkenborn]
Updated TMS 5220 to latest MAME core code
Added support for Valley Manufacturing [Gerrit Volkenborn]
Zaccaria - Added support for SenseInput line and enhanced diagnostic output [Gerrit Volkenborn/David Gersic]
Improved speech emulation for Bally 35, Nuova Bell, and Zaccaria Generation 2 [Gerrit Volkenborn]

Corrected spinners for PinMAME simulators [Steve Ellenoff]
Added simulator for Sega Harley Davidson [Steve Ellenoff/Brian Smith]
Improved simulator for Stern Monopoly [Brian Smith]

*** ROM SUPPORT ***
Bowlers: Aristocrat, King Tut, Pompeii, Tic-Tac-Strike L-1 and L-2
Corrected sound roms for Aristocrat, Pompeii, Shuffle Inn, Taurus, Topaz
Data East: Tales from the Crypt 3.02 Dutch (thanks Inkochnito!)
GamePlan: alternate Lady Sharpshooter set
Inder: Mundial 90
Juegos Populares: Halley Comet, Olympus (good game rom)
Sega: South Park 0.96 (thanks Inkochnito!) and Stern Harley Davidson 3rd Edition 4.0 (thanks Steve Ellenoff!)
Cut the Cheese and Cut the Cheese Deluxe
Taito: Zeke's Peak (Ice Cold Beer clone)
Valley Spectra IV

Added a whole bunch of Stern whitestar revisions (thanks Micko!)
Added Oliver Okaegi sets that were missing or skipped in previous PinMAME releases
Added FreeWPC sets that work in PinMAME/Visual PinMAME
Added Free Play and alternate rules roms for early Stern (thanks Seymour Shabow!)
Added Free Play roms for Zaccaria (thanks David Gersic!)
Added a lot of WPC/WPC-95 sets including the real Scared Stiff prototype rom with working kickback! (thanks Pete Haduch!)


Due to our loss of access to pinmame.com, files are now hosted on sourceforge.
Get PinMAME, PinMAME32, and Visual PinMAME v2.4 here: http://sourceforge.net/projects/pinmame/files/pinmame/2.4/



APN
MAME Fan
Reged: 09/07/09
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Re: Visual Pinmame 2.4 released. new [Re: russ h.]
#263371 - 08/30/11 10:06 AM


DCS emulation still sounds like crap.



StilettoAdministrator
They're always after me Lucky ROMS!
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Re: Visual Pinmame 2.4 released. new [Re: APN]
#263401 - 08/30/11 03:52 PM


> DCS emulation still sounds like crap.

Hmm, is that MAME's fault, or PinMAME's? Are they not running the latest?

- Stiletto



StilettoAdministrator
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Re: Visual Pinmame 2.4 released. new [Re: russ h.]
#263402 - 08/30/11 03:53 PM


> Changes:
>
> *** CORE/CPU ***
> Atari sound has been improved [Gerrit Volkenborn/Pascal Janin]
> GamePlan Lady Sharpshooter's solenoids now work 100%
> Added support for Jeutel - fully emulated with sound and speech [Gerrit Volkenborn]
> Updated TMS 5220 to latest MAME core code
> Added support for Valley Manufacturing [Gerrit Volkenborn]
> Zaccaria - Added support for SenseInput line and enhanced diagnostic output [Gerrit
> Volkenborn/David Gersic]
> Improved speech emulation for Bally 35, Nuova Bell, and Zaccaria Generation 2 [Gerrit
> Volkenborn]
>
> Corrected spinners for PinMAME simulators [Steve Ellenoff]
> Added simulator for Sega Harley Davidson [Steve Ellenoff/Brian Smith]
> Improved simulator for Stern Monopoly [Brian Smith]
>
> *** ROM SUPPORT ***
> Bowlers: Aristocrat, King Tut, Pompeii, Tic-Tac-Strike L-1 and L-2
> Corrected sound roms for Aristocrat, Pompeii, Shuffle Inn, Taurus, Topaz
> Data East: Tales from the Crypt 3.02 Dutch (thanks Inkochnito!)
> GamePlan: alternate Lady Sharpshooter set
> Inder: Mundial 90
> Juegos Populares: Halley Comet, Olympus (good game rom)
> Sega: South Park 0.96 (thanks Inkochnito!) and Stern Harley Davidson 3rd Edition 4.0
> (thanks Steve Ellenoff!)
> Cut the Cheese and Cut the Cheese Deluxe
> Taito: Zeke's Peak (Ice Cold Beer clone)
> Valley Spectra IV
>
> Added a whole bunch of Stern whitestar revisions (thanks Micko!)
> Added Oliver Okaegi sets that were missing or skipped in previous PinMAME releases
> Added FreeWPC sets that work in PinMAME/Visual PinMAME
> Added Free Play and alternate rules roms for early Stern (thanks Seymour Shabow!)
> Added Free Play roms for Zaccaria (thanks David Gersic!)
> Added a lot of WPC/WPC-95 sets including the real Scared Stiff prototype rom with
> working kickback! (thanks Pete Haduch!)
>
>
> Due to our loss of access to pinmame.com, files are now hosted on sourceforge.
> Get PinMAME, PinMAME32, and Visual PinMAME v2.4 here:
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/pinmame/files/pinmame/2.4/

I'm glad to see there's a dialog starting between PinMAMEDEV and MAMEDEV...

- Stiletto



etabeta
Reged: 08/25/04
Posts: 2035
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Re: Visual Pinmame 2.4 released. new [Re: Stiletto]
#263403 - 08/30/11 04:04 PM


the core is still based on MAME 0.73-0.75.
I think they have backported some improvements happened in the meanwhile, but for the rest the source is not latest MAME...



TafoidAdministrator
I keep on testing.. testing.. testing... into the future!
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Re: Visual Pinmame 2.4 released. new [Re: APN]
#263404 - 08/30/11 04:13 PM


> DCS emulation still sounds like crap.

If I understand the issue.. as funny as it sounds.. if you have some warbling or waving of the audio pitch, try disabling one of your CPU cores via the "Set Affinity" option in the task manager for the process. Uncheck one of them and it should improve performance and quality dramatically.

For what it's worth on certain dual core machines (including the ATHLON64 X2 one I run), MAME-based emulators using sources before 0.107 all have this problem.



R. Belmont
Cuckoo for IGAvania
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 9711
Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
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Re: Visual Pinmame 2.4 released. new [Re: etabeta]
#263405 - 08/30/11 04:25 PM


> the core is still based on MAME 0.73-0.75.
> I think they have backported some improvements happened in the meanwhile, but for the
> rest the source is not latest MAME...

0.69 actually. Which is why Stiletto's claim of "a dialog" is hilarious



StilettoAdministrator
They're always after me Lucky ROMS!
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Re: Visual Pinmame 2.4 released. new [Re: R. Belmont]
#263407 - 08/30/11 04:34 PM


> > the core is still based on MAME 0.73-0.75.
> > I think they have backported some improvements happened in the meanwhile, but for
> the
> > rest the source is not latest MAME...
>
> 0.69 actually. Which is why Stiletto's claim of "a dialog" is hilarious

Hey, baby steps, man...

- Stiletto



etabeta
Reged: 08/25/04
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Re: Visual Pinmame 2.4 released. new [Re: R. Belmont]
#263411 - 08/30/11 05:09 PM


> 0.69 actually.

ah ok. I saw some specific files had been updated (through the past few years) to 0.70, 0.71u2, 0.72, 0.73 and 0.75, but I wasn't sure when the bulk core dated back to



TafoidAdministrator
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Re: Visual Pinmame 2.4 released. new [Re: etabeta]
#263414 - 08/30/11 05:16 PM


> > 0.69 actually.
>
> ah ok. I saw some specific files had been updated (through the past few years) to
> 0.70, 0.71u2, 0.72, 0.73 and 0.75, but I wasn't sure when the bulk core dated back to

Actually, quoted from whatsnew.txt

Quote:



We also decided as a team that there's no real need to upgrade to the latest M.A.M.E. core.
We now have support for all the CPUs ever used on pinball hardware, and all the other type chips
that aren't supported yet won't probably be supported by M.A.M.E. anytime soon either,
so we'll stick with the tested, proven, reliable, and FAST older 0.76 core.
Why break a good thing?





So, the correct answer is 0.76. That's right, 0.76. Thanks for playing



R. Belmont
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Reged: 09/21/03
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Re: Visual Pinmame 2.4 released. new [Re: Tafoid]
#263417 - 08/30/11 06:13 PM


> So, the correct answer is 0.76. That's right, 0.76. Thanks for playing

It's odd - the readme said that at one point, but the identifiable files I saw last time I did a dungeon crawl on their source were all 0.69.



Sharkpuncher
Puncher of Shark
Reged: 08/30/11
Posts: 20
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Re: Visual Pinmame 2.4 released. new [Re: russ h.]
#263425 - 08/30/11 07:46 PM


Random conversation jumper-in, but I had thought that some time ago (a year or so ago maybe? during the EM skeleton driver hullabaloo) that there was some sort of agreement to roll PinMAME into core MAME? or were there too many issues with the VP-integrated side of things?

I've always been curious about the status of PinMAME and why it has danced outside of MAME's realm for almost a decade but no one ever really seems to come out and say why. If there's some sort of sordid history I'm not trying to drag it up but I've often wondered why they never merged up properly and thought things had been set straight semi-recently.



R. Belmont
Cuckoo for IGAvania
Reged: 09/21/03
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Re: Visual Pinmame 2.4 released. new [Re: Sharkpuncher]
#263632 - 09/01/11 06:42 PM


> Random conversation jumper-in, but I had thought that some time ago (a year or so ago
> maybe? during the EM skeleton driver hullabaloo) that there was some sort of
> agreement to roll PinMAME into core MAME? or were there too many issues with the
> VP-integrated side of things?

Micko thought that if he added all the PinMAME roms people would magically build drivers. That hasn't happened (I'm interested, but my todo list is astronomical already), and porting from PinMAME itself is not possible due to a combination of their being on an 8 year old core and PinMAME having a, ahh, "unique" code style.

Also, Micko was supposed to submit some working drivers as an example of how certain unique features of pinball games were intended to be handled in mainline MAME and that hasn't happened yet.

Finally, the VP integration is not usable the way it's implemented in PinMAME. COM/OLE is ugly, brittle, and Microsoft has been steadily abandoning it. But given Visual Pinball is still written in Visual Basic 6, it's the only choice they have.

> I've always been curious about the status of PinMAME and why it has danced outside of
> MAME's realm for almost a decade but no one ever really seems to come out and say
> why.

Mechanical games were originally not allowed in MAME, and they had a significant head start in terms of functional drivers when that ban was lifted. There's no bad blood or anything, they just continue to do their thing and we do ours.



Sharkpuncher
Puncher of Shark
Reged: 08/30/11
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Re: Visual Pinmame 2.4 released. new [Re: R. Belmont]
#263648 - 09/01/11 08:43 PM


> Micko thought that if he added all the PinMAME roms people would magically build
> drivers. That hasn't happened (I'm interested, but my todo list is astronomical
> already), and porting from PinMAME itself is not possible due to a combination of
> their being on an 8 year old core and PinMAME having a, ahh, "unique" code style.
>
> Also, Micko was supposed to submit some working drivers as an example of how certain
> unique features of pinball games were intended to be handled in mainline MAME and
> that hasn't happened yet.
>
> Finally, the VP integration is not usable the way it's implemented in PinMAME.
> COM/OLE is ugly, brittle, and Microsoft has been steadily abandoning it. But given
> Visual Pinball is still written in Visual Basic 6, it's the only choice they have.

That all make a lot of sense, and I suppose it would also need to be someone who was familiar enough with various incarnations of the mame core code structure to attempt to scrape useful code out of it, and also somewhat familiar with the workings of the systems they were trying to emulate and would make it a lot less portable and more labor-intensive of a process.

Regarding the Visual Pinball part, ugh, and considering that once you remove all of the graphics and gameplay from a pinball game you get a score/bonus display and some sounds you can trigger at best, it definitely wouldn't especially stoke anyone's fires except crazed pokérom'rs and people who found it a technical achievement,...and building something to replace it from scratch for MAME just to support them would be formidable. I had hoped maybe there was some way that MAME could interface with VP using it's all-purpose i/o system.


> Mechanical games were originally not allowed in MAME, and they had a significant head
> start in terms of functional drivers when that ban was lifted. There's no bad blood
> or anything, they just continue to do their thing and we do ours.

Yeah back in the early part of the 2000s and in the days of AGEMAME and all that it was logical, but I had been curious why they were staying so far behind and occasionally selectively incorporating MAME fixes even in 2010, but it makes more sense now, and I guess they have the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" feeling about it as well to boot.



B2K24
MAME @ 15 kHz Sony Trinitron CRT user
Reged: 10/25/10
Posts: 2663
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Re: Visual Pinmame 2.4 released. new [Re: Sharkpuncher]
#263662 - 09/01/11 11:04 PM


> Regarding the Visual Pinball part, ugh, and considering that once you remove all of
> the graphics and gameplay from a pinball game you get a score/bonus display and some
> sounds you can trigger at best, it definitely wouldn't especially stoke anyone's
> fires except crazed pokérom'rs and people who found it a technical achievement,...and
> building something to replace it from scratch for MAME just to support them would be
> formidable. I had hoped maybe there was some way that MAME could interface with VP
> using it's all-purpose i/o system.

I'm inclined to disagree with this.

The score/bonus display you are referring to is known as DMD (Dot Matrix Display). Different Pinball games depending on what company created/released it have different looks to them, and probably different CPUs/hardware which makes these displays possible.

Compare Elvira and the Party Monsters (Bally) (1989) & Rollergames (Williams) (1990) To Star Trek The Next Generation (Williams) (1993) & Demolition Man (Williams) (1994) Which most likely have different CPUs & hardware.

I don't care about MAMEs ability to play Visual table recreations from Authors that created them in a VP enviroment, but I do care about documentation of the hardware and low level emulation of the individual components/instructions if possible.

As a long time Pinball fan that has played more than 50 real tables when they were popular in Arcades, it's amazing that some table author that has never played the real table can make a recreation so close to the real thing.

I greatly appreciate what PinMAME and VP accomplishes and sure there is always room for improvement, so if the ROMs being added to MAME sparks someone's interest to make simulation/emulation of the DMDs more accurate, and accomplishes MAME's Philosophy and accuracy, than that's wonderful.

Since this hardware was present in Arcades it should be preserved. However, since there is no way to dump a pinball tables flipper/bumper etc. I don't necessarily ever expect to run that part in MAME. Of course anything is indeed possible



Sharkpuncher
Puncher of Shark
Reged: 08/30/11
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Re: Visual Pinmame 2.4 released. new [Re: B2K24]
#263666 - 09/01/11 11:31 PM


> > fires except crazed pokérom'rs and people who found it a technical
> achievement,...and

>
> I'm inclined to disagree with this.
>
> The score/bonus display you are referring to is known as DMD (Dot Matrix Display).
> Different Pinball games depending on what company created/released it have different
> looks to them, and probably different CPUs/hardware which makes these displays
> possible.

I had initially written DMD, but then thought about it and just generalized it since there are other forms of digital displays that they have had. Old-school segmented displays...and I think there have been pinball games with an LCD....haven't there?

>
> I don't care about MAMEs ability to play Visual table recreations from Authors that
> created them in a VP enviroment, but I do care about documentation of the hardware
> and low level emulation of the individual components/instructions if possible.
<...>
>
> Since this hardware was present in Arcades it should be preserved. However, since
> there is no way to dump a pinball tables flipper/bumper etc. I don't necessarily ever
> expect to run that part in MAME. Of course anything is indeed possible

I agree with all of this, hence why I have wondered (and hoped/desired) for it to fully merge into MAME at some point...I was just lumping that into "technical achievement". After all, without the gameplay elements (ie table simulation) the sounds and display features are, at best, something that you would be manually triggering via mapped switches and/or a test mode. as a "table-less" pinball table isn't going to do too much by itself. Except maybe fail self-tests and/or play an attract mode.

I would think for the majority of people that would just be a passing "hmm, cool." as they read the whatsnew.txt and they might download a few roms and fiddle with them a little, except for the people who go OMG! NEED 2 FIND MOAR NEW ROMZ! and those of us who would mess around with it more and perhaps peruse the source tree.

In other words, I think you're actually agreeing with me other than thinking that I was being too dismissive of people's interest, but I guess that's a matter of opinion. Either way it's neither here nor there until someone does the work needed to make it happen and that is going to involve interest and time from the right person/people since it sounds like there's a lot to it.

I would really love to be able to play Baby Pac-man (and try out that "Granny and the Gators" game which I had never seen or heard of before PinMAME) because that was actually a game I played a bit when I was young, but even the video+pinball games seem to be fairly tied into the table, and even if you did somehow divorce the two, it would be much less of a game (Baby pac relies on it for a few things, like power pellets iirc). Oh, and VPinMAME isn't even an option if you're on a mac, lol. (Although I did try downloading it on a PC for that reason years ago but gave up when I couldn't get things working correctly.)

Someday, perhaps.



Fedmor El
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Re: Visual Pinmame 2.4 released. new [Re: Stiletto]
#263740 - 09/02/11 05:35 PM


> > Changes:
> >
> > *** CORE/CPU ***
> > Atari sound has been improved [Gerrit Volkenborn/Pascal Janin]
> > GamePlan Lady Sharpshooter's solenoids now work 100%
> > Added support for Jeutel - fully emulated with sound and speech [Gerrit Volkenborn]
> > Updated TMS 5220 to latest MAME core code
> > Added support for Valley Manufacturing [Gerrit Volkenborn]
> > Zaccaria - Added support for SenseInput line and enhanced diagnostic output [Gerrit
> > Volkenborn/David Gersic]
> > Improved speech emulation for Bally 35, Nuova Bell, and Zaccaria Generation 2
> [Gerrit
> > Volkenborn]
> >
> > Corrected spinners for PinMAME simulators [Steve Ellenoff]
> > Added simulator for Sega Harley Davidson [Steve Ellenoff/Brian Smith]
> > Improved simulator for Stern Monopoly [Brian Smith]
> >
> > *** ROM SUPPORT ***
> > Bowlers: Aristocrat, King Tut, Pompeii, Tic-Tac-Strike L-1 and L-2
> > Corrected sound roms for Aristocrat, Pompeii, Shuffle Inn, Taurus, Topaz
> > Data East: Tales from the Crypt 3.02 Dutch (thanks Inkochnito!)
> > GamePlan: alternate Lady Sharpshooter set
> > Inder: Mundial 90
> > Juegos Populares: Halley Comet, Olympus (good game rom)
> > Sega: South Park 0.96 (thanks Inkochnito!) and Stern Harley Davidson 3rd Edition
> 4.0
> > (thanks Steve Ellenoff!)
> > Cut the Cheese and Cut the Cheese Deluxe
> > Taito: Zeke's Peak (Ice Cold Beer clone)
> > Valley Spectra IV
> >
> > Added a whole bunch of Stern whitestar revisions (thanks Micko!)
> > Added Oliver Okaegi sets that were missing or skipped in previous PinMAME releases
> > Added FreeWPC sets that work in PinMAME/Visual PinMAME
> > Added Free Play and alternate rules roms for early Stern (thanks Seymour Shabow!)
> > Added Free Play roms for Zaccaria (thanks David Gersic!)
> > Added a lot of WPC/WPC-95 sets including the real Scared Stiff prototype rom with
> > working kickback! (thanks Pete Haduch!)
> >
> >
> > Due to our loss of access to pinmame.com, files are now hosted on sourceforge.
> > Get PinMAME, PinMAME32, and Visual PinMAME v2.4 here:
> > http://sourceforge.net/projects/pinmame/files/pinmame/2.4/
>
> I'm glad to see there's a dialog starting between PinMAMEDEV and MAMEDEV...
>
> - Stiletto

yeh dialog!!! ((:
there was a war before?






Andrew
Girl Watcher
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 5081
Loc: Boston, Mass.
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Re: Visual Pinmame 2.4 released. new [Re: Sharkpuncher]
#263754 - 09/02/11 07:25 PM


> If there's some sort of sordid history

I believe vpinmame used to be closed source, which caused some heartburn for a while but that was resolved a few years ago. Also used to be tons of infighting amongst the table authors. Dunno if that still goes on.



--
A story of one man and his obsession with the female anatomy.



R. Belmont
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Re: Visual Pinmame 2.4 released. new [Re: Andrew]
#263852 - 09/03/11 06:23 PM


> > If there's some sort of sordid history
>
> I believe vpinmame used to be closed source, which caused some heartburn for a while
> but that was resolved a few years ago. Also used to be tons of infighting amongst the
> table authors. Dunno if that still goes on.

Ahh, yeah, the table authoring for VP is like the Mos Eisley Cantina. Except everyone shoots first. But that doesn't impact PinMAME or MAME.


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