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Street Fighter II Champion Final Japanese Version
#278777 - 03/10/12 07:19 PM
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Dominic Nater sent us the most wanted version of SF2 Champion, Japan 920803, the final Japanese version. It's basically the holy grail of SF2 Champion revisions.
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Re: Street Fighter II Champion Final Japanese Version
[Re: Smitdogg]
#278779 - 03/10/12 07:27 PM
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Let's see if they get the Ryu VS Ken Hack Version.
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Re: Street Fighter II Champion Final Japanese Version
[Re: Smitdogg]
#278781 - 03/10/12 07:35 PM
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the final revision, with a great balance in the fighters, and has japanese text.
other upgrades?
the world version pass to clone now?
Edited by fortuna_chan (03/10/12 07:35 PM)
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Re: Street Fighter II Champion Final Japanese Version
[Re: fortuna_chan]
#278782 - 03/10/12 07:40 PM
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> the final revision, with a great balance in the fighters, and has japanese text.
>
>
> other upgrades?
Has the special ending like the USA version of this revision if you beat it without losing any rounds. It will be like the USA version of this revision but without the AI jacked up for the overseas markets.
> the world version pass to clone now?
I doubt it, they generally don't make Japanese versions the parent in mame, though in my opinion they should be if the game is from Japan.
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Re: Street Fighter II Champion Final Japanese Version
[Re: Smitdogg]
#278790 - 03/10/12 09:19 PM
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> > the final revision, with a great balance in the fighters, and has japanese text.
> >
> >
> > other upgrades?
>
> Has the special ending like the USA version of this revision if you beat it without
> losing any rounds. It will be like the USA version of this revision but without the
> AI jacked up for the overseas markets.
>
> > the world version pass to clone now?
>
> I doubt it, they generally don't make Japanese versions the parent in mame, though in
> my opinion they should be if the game is from Japan.
In my opinion, the parent should be the version from the country of origin of the game... or the oldest.
Funny that there seems to be no pattern, even if the game is Japanese, sometimes the parent is European, sometimes American and other times the world version. A rare exception is the case of Puckman.
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Re: Street Fighter II Champion Final Japanese Version
[Re: Ramirez]
#278792 - 03/10/12 09:23 PM
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There's a rough standard which is English with a preference to Euro/World, then USA (because it's still English) and to the most recent revision.
I could make up a logical argument for the first revision needing to be parent but that would suck in reality as they often are the most bugged and least attractive version. The region argument is totally different.
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Re: Street Fighter II Champion Final Japanese Version
[Re: Smitdogg]
#278796 - 03/10/12 09:56 PM
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I didn't know that the choice of the parent was a matter of attractiveness... doesn't seems very logical. If you would make this argument about the first revision being the parent, I'd agree with you no matter what...
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Re: Street Fighter II Champion Final Japanese Version
[Re: Ramirez]
#278797 - 03/10/12 09:59 PM
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> I didn't know that the choice of the parent was a matter of attractiveness...
I didn't say it was. It's just my opinion.
>doesn't
> seems very logical. If you would make this argument about the first revision being
> the parent, I'd agree with you no matter what...
It wouldn't be changed based on me ranting either way. And I don't think anyone would sign up for sweeping the change through mame even if you convinced enough of mamedev to make it a possibility.
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Re: Street Fighter II Champion Final Japanese Version
[Re: Smitdogg]
#278798 - 03/10/12 10:12 PM
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> I could make up a logical argument for the first revision needing to be parent but
> that would suck in reality as they often are the most bugged and least attractive
> version. The region argument is totally different.
This is one of the things that has always bugged me about MAME.
Organizationally within MAME, the games should follow a proper parent-child relationship based on the way the ROMs are shared between sets. Every set should be named with a long name that fully describes the set. i.e. no more 8.3 set names.
Then, there should be some sort of software list in MAME that maps the old short names to whatever set is considered the best/definitive/playable/whatever version that we currently call the "parent". That way, people can always run "mame asteroid" and it just runs whatever version is currently considered the "best". This should also result in less churning of the set names when a newer revision is discovered.
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GroovyMAME support forum on BYOAC
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Re: Street Fighter II Champion Final Japanese Version
[Re: Smitdogg]
#278799 - 03/10/12 10:17 PM
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I know, I know... you're right, it's just that it crossed my mind before, but I've never expressed...
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Re: Street Fighter II Champion Final Japanese Version
[Re: krick]
#278800 - 03/10/12 10:29 PM
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> > I could make up a logical argument for the first revision needing to be parent but
> > that would suck in reality as they often are the most bugged and least attractive
> > version. The region argument is totally different.
>
> This is one of the things that has always bugged me about MAME.
>
> Organizationally within MAME, the games should follow a proper parent-child
> relationship based on the way the ROMs are shared between sets. Every set should be
> named with a long name that fully describes the set. i.e. no more 8.3 set names.
>
> Then, there should be some sort of software list in MAME that maps the old short
> names to whatever set is considered the best/definitive/playable/whatever version
> that we currently call the "parent". That way, people can always run "mame asteroid"
> and it just runs whatever version is currently considered the "best". This should
> also result in less churning of the set names when a newer revision is discovered.
But the "best" version is totally subjective matter...
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Re: Street Fighter II Champion Final Japanese Version
[Re: Ramirez]
#278808 - 03/10/12 11:49 PM
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> Has the special ending like the USA version of this revision if you beat it without
> losing any rounds. It will be like the USA version of this revision but without the
> AI jacked up for the overseas markets.
So you're saying the AI is not as hard as in other markets? Which markets and which versions are hardest in your opinion?
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Re: Street Fighter II Champion Final Japanese Version
[Re: krick]
#278810 - 03/11/12 12:14 AM
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In my opinion, the parent should always be the original release of the game.
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Re: Street Fighter II Champion Final Japanese Version
[Re: Smitdogg]
#278811 - 03/11/12 12:14 AM
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FWIW I don't think the majority of MAME (particularly Street fighter) end users give a crap about the parent / clone / etc relationship, all they care is they can play the version of Street Fighter they want and not have to constantly re download ROMS.
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Re: Street Fighter II Champion Final Japanese Version
[Re: greybeard]
#278819 - 03/11/12 01:47 AM
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I'm sorry if will hurt the filling here, but with this USA Laws... i think will see a black cat with the tail out of the door.
I hope not... 
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Re: Street Fighter II Champion Final Japanese Version
[Re: DoomSooth]
#278823 - 03/11/12 03:04 AM
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That doesn't make any sense either. Early revisions of midway games in the 90's (think MK) often were incomplete.
I think the problem with the way mame does things right now is it's trying to use the parent/clone relationship to handle three things, when it can only effectively handle one.
You've got the parent/clone relationship. What that's supposed to be is that the game with the bulk of the roms (typically the first revision) is the parent. And the rest only have minor graphical/programming differences. It should be the first "finished" revision from the country of origin.
Now you've also got regions. Regions should be another thing all-together and each rom should have it's own set of region flags (language, and release area).
Then you've got variants. These are actually totally different games (like ultimate mortal kombat 3/mortal kombat 3) but because they are an "expansion pack" they are put into the clone category in mame.
How I've always thought mame should work is this:
1. The parent name doesn't represent any specific rom, but rather the game that is going to be loaded.
2. Mame has a language setting... it also hase a region setting (north america, europe, ect)
3a. When you use the parent name to launch mame, it searches your roms for the latest revision of the game. If possible it also tries to find a version that matches the release area and/or the language.
3b. If you use one of the clone names, it overrides all of these other settings and launches the specific rom you requested.
I'll bet it would be a colossal pain in the butt to redo everything to work this way, but boy would it alleviate a lot of headaches. And it isn't like listxml would keel over if two more flags were added.
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Re: Street Fighter II Champion Final Japanese Version
[Re: Toe-Knee]
#278824 - 03/11/12 03:10 AM
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Generally Japan had to jack up difficulty to please USA operators so they could earn more quarters and Japan versions are more fair and how they intended them to be. Play any CPS2 fighter game in a 1 player game, Japan versions are always easier. The easiest version of SSF2 was the Grand Master Challenge, they didn't even give us one of those. Too fair lol. There's a Japanese version of Thunder Zone that is possible to beat in 1 credit and it doesn't have jacked up graphics to simulate the popular war at the time of release. Even as far back as Mario... Always try the Japan versions.
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Re: Street Fighter II Champion Final Japanese Version
[Re: Smitdogg]
#278829 - 03/11/12 03:53 AM
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I find the existing scheme really annoying in regards to Gradius, but.. that's the MAME team's prerogative.
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Try checking the MAME manual at http://docs.mamedev.org
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Re: Street Fighter II Champion Final Japanese Version
[Re: Smitdogg]
#278830 - 03/11/12 03:57 AM
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Thanks on that, by the way. It's good to see some of those last revisions get saved. Yeah, I know, there were SF2 machines everywhere and they weren't particularly rare, but it really does seem like some revisions became pretty rare at a quick pace.
I own a legit working SF2CE US board here. I could probably switch it to Japanese region, now that I think about it..
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Try checking the MAME manual at http://docs.mamedev.org
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Re: Street Fighter II Champion Final Japanese Version
[Re: Firehawke]
#278831 - 03/11/12 03:57 AM
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Yeah that seems a bit dumb. But seeing as though the board sells for over $5,000 I think I'll let it slide. Glad we at least don't have "Hero Turtles" as a parent set. That is just embarrassing history for the UK imo. Don't say "ninja". This is the same place that produced Johnny Rotten.
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Re: Street Fighter II Champion Final Japanese Version
[Re: Firehawke]
#278832 - 03/11/12 03:58 AM
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This particular version is rare. We scout for them constantly.
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Re: Street Fighter II Champion Final Japanese Version
[Re: Smitdogg]
#278833 - 03/11/12 04:01 AM
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No kidding. I still tell people in certain online communities about the European censorship-- Probotector, TMHT-- lowest common denominator censorship because companies didn't want to produce per-country as opposed to per-region. (Not saying I can't see why they didn't, mind!)
The kids of today are often shocked at just how INANE the 80s censorship issues were. When it wasn't censorship, it was cheapness-- NES Contra and Castlevania 3 in the US were nowhere near their original Japanese versions.
If the internet had existed in this form back in the 80s, there'd have been a lot of rioting kids!
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Try checking the MAME manual at http://docs.mamedev.org
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| Qun Mang |
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Re: Street Fighter II Champion Final Japanese Version
[Re: Smitdogg]
#278839 - 03/11/12 05:15 AM
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You mention back to Mario, but wasn't Super Mario Bros 2 (aka SMB the Lost Levels) not released to the US because they said US players couldn't handle the difficulty? Or was it more because they could save their games being FDS and we couldn't (no battery backup yet)?
I've always been piss-poor at fighting games, so maybe I'll start giving the Jap versions a go...
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Re: Street Fighter II Champion Final Japanese Version
[Re: Qun Mang]
#278840 - 03/11/12 05:23 AM
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> You mention back to Mario, but wasn't Super Mario Bros 2
I mean Mario Bros. Not Super Mario Bros. Play the Japan version of Mario Bros. (absolute masterpiece of a game) in mame. Compared to the others you should last longer, unless you are just terrible at the game in which case you will die quickly no matter which version you play.
>(aka SMB the Lost Levels)
> not released to the US because they said US players couldn't handle the difficulty?
> Or was it more because they could save their games being FDS and we couldn't (no
> battery backup yet)?
This is why I said generally, because it isn't always the case. A more recent example of it going this opposite way is the international version of Mushihimesama Futari Black Label having bosses with less hit points than the Japan version to make it easier. God I'm a huge nerd... BTW console games are different, they don't take quarters so there is no need to do the difficulty jacking.
> I've always been piss-poor at fighting games, so maybe I'll start giving the Jap
> versions a go...
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Re: Street Fighter II Champion Final Japanese Version
[Re: Smitdogg]
#278854 - 03/11/12 08:08 AM
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Actually, it's been hypothesized that American publishers (typically the same company that developed the Japanese original) in the NES days would crank the difficulty in order to discourage rentals.
Ninja Gaiden 3 is a great example of a game that got given a hefty difficulty spike (and password feature dropped) for the US version.
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Try checking the MAME manual at http://docs.mamedev.org
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Re: Street Fighter II Champion Final Japanese Version
[Re: Smitdogg]
#278873 - 03/11/12 02:02 PM
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> Generally Japan had to jack up difficulty to please USA operators so they could earn
> more quarters and Japan versions are more fair and how they intended them to be. Play
> any CPS2 fighter game in a 1 player game, Japan versions are always easier. The
> easiest version of SSF2 was the Grand Master Challenge, they didn't even give us one
> of those. Too fair lol. There's a Japanese version of Thunder Zone that is possible
> to beat in 1 credit and it doesn't have jacked up graphics to simulate the popular
> war at the time of release. Even as far back as Mario... Always try the Japan
> versions.
Thanks for the info. No wonder I'd get my butt kicked in SSF2 Turbo USA all the time lol
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Re: Street Fighter II Champion Final Japanese Version
[Re: krick]
#278900 - 03/11/12 07:40 PM
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> Every set should be named with a long name that fully describes the set. i.e. no more 8.3 set names.
why? you might have noticed that since a couple of years clone names can well go up to 12 or 16 characters, so you might have also reached the conclusion that short names are not there for any DOS-related reason (no 8.3 rule anymore)
have you wondered, then, why we still use shortnames?
the answer is really simple and it's the same reason why we used shortnames also in MESS for software list: ease of use for developers
most development happens from command line and the shorter is the name, the easier is to recall it when you have to briefly launch 8-10 games to test the effect of some changes
if you don't like shortnames, you can simply use a frontend, which allows you to sort games based on their description and to filter out the games you don't want to see
similarly, your very nice idea about allowing the user to choose the version they want as parent should be addressed to frontends authors.
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