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Crazy Kong - Correct Sound For All Variants?
#313397 - 08/25/13 07:02 PM
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Hi guys,
I remember playing various bootlegs of Crazy Kong in the arcades of Birmingham, England in the 1980's. One thing I recall quite clearly was the audio. It had a very distinctive tune. When playing the MAME versions of CK, I searched for this particular tune and could never find it.
Thinking I had imagined it, I trawled YT recently and now found a version that matches the sound that I remember. Perhaps consideration could be given to implementing this as I don't think it was unique to just a couple of boards. I heard it all over the place!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlURS0UUKqA&list=PL35EC2456E7F83C85&index=36
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God, I miss those dark, musty arcades ....
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| R. Belmont |
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Re: Crazy Kong - Correct Sound For All Variants?
[Re: JonBoyRetro]
#313402 - 08/25/13 07:49 PM
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> Thinking I had imagined it, I trawled YT recently and now found a version that
> matches the sound that I remember. Perhaps consideration could be given to
> implementing this as I don't think it was unique to just a couple of boards. I heard
> it all over the place!
Hi,
MAME runs the actual program and data from the original machine. In this case, the version of CK you remember so fondly has not had its ROMs dumped, so we obviously can't support it.
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Re: Crazy Kong - Correct Sound For All Variants?
[Re: R. Belmont]
#313410 - 08/25/13 08:50 PM
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Well in the video the sound is clearly different from big kong in mame. Just listen to when Mario jumps and dies and also the springs on the elevator stage you can hear the difference. Maybe someone should get a hold of this guy and see if he can dump the roms. 
The sounds are totally different. Has nothing to do with pitch or bass.
Edited by joey35car (08/27/13 02:52 AM)
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Re: Crazy Kong - Correct Sound For All Variants?
[Re: joey35car]
#313421 - 08/26/13 12:15 AM
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Thanks. Crazy Kong (bootleg on Galaxian hardware) is close - but lacks the punchy base of the correct version. Perhaps the sound emulation isn't quite correct.
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God, I miss those dark, musty arcades ....
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Re: Crazy Kong - Correct Sound For All Variants?
[Re: JonBoyRetro]
#313422 - 08/26/13 12:33 AM
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Yes but that rom is different compared to the video. The long ladder is not in this version but is in the Big Kong rom.
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| R. Belmont |
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Re: Crazy Kong - Correct Sound For All Variants?
[Re: JonBoyRetro]
#313486 - 08/26/13 08:42 PM
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> Thanks. Crazy Kong (bootleg on Galaxian hardware) is close - but lacks the punchy
> base of the correct version. Perhaps the sound emulation isn't quite correct.
Assuming you aren't playing on typical plastic computer speakers and wondering where the bass went, the answer is probably "the cabinet". Wooden arcade cabinets are a pretty decent approximation of an echo chamber for bass, so they tend to sound bassier than the crappy car-door speakers installed in them would normally merit.
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| casm |
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Re: Crazy Kong - Correct Sound For All Variants?
[Re: R. Belmont]
#313777 - 09/01/13 08:29 PM
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> Assuming you aren't playing on typical plastic computer speakers and wondering where
> the bass went, the answer is probably "the cabinet". Wooden arcade cabinets are a
> pretty decent approximation of an echo chamber for bass, so they tend to sound
> bassier than the crappy car-door speakers installed in them would normally merit.
You're right, and there's a world of difference between typical computer speakers and even the same-quality ones installed in a cabinet. Most games sound better in my MAME cabinet than on the Macbook, etc.
That said, I know the variant the OP is referring to, and have to agree with him that it's not in MAME. The best way I can describe the difference is in the sound Donkey Kong makes during the opening sequence when jumping along the top girder: the landing sounds are more... Authoritative. It's not so much that they're bassier (which would be down to the cabinet) as they are more pronounced (which would be down to whatever code generates the sound).
The version shown in the video was fairly common in Ireland in the '80s, at least in the greater Dublin area. There was one that I used to play that had the same sounds as the one shown in the video - it's a very distinctive difference to the ones I'd play in the US at the same time, even including the Crazy Kong variants that were common there.
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Re: Crazy Kong - Correct Sound For All Variants?
[Re: casm]
#313786 - 09/02/13 12:35 AM
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what sort of sound hardware does it use
i wonder if this is a similar thing to what commodore64 owners would say about the first SID chip having a certain sound (partly analog i think) which doesnt sound 'right' when digital machines try to emulate it 
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Re: Crazy Kong - Correct Sound For All Variants?
[Re: grog]
#313789 - 09/02/13 01:48 AM
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> i wonder if this is a similar thing to what commodore64 owners would say about the
> first SID chip having a certain sound (partly analog i think) which doesnt sound
> 'right' when digital machines try to emulate it
The SID chip is part analogue and part digital. Emulating it perfectly for everyone is pretty much impossible because commodore weren't able to manufacture either the chip or the rest of the computer reliably. Bil Herd has some interesting stories about how the engineers weren't allowed to see what manufacturing did to get the computers out the door. IMO the difference in your own hearing due to aging is greater than the difference between a real c64 and an emulator.
It's entirely possible in ckon there is an un-emulated analogue sound section like a filter, or the 4 bit samples don't have the correct scale applied to them. However just by saying "I remember it sounded different" doesn't help us. Even a board recording isn't that helpful as a lot of components will age and cause different sound.
Only if another board turns up or the sound is reverse engineered from the pcb/schematics and it shows up that we're not emulating it correctly will anything get done.
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| RATMNL |
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Re: Crazy Kong - Correct Sound For All Variants?
[Re: ]
#313821 - 09/02/13 10:52 AM
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> Bil Herd has some interesting stories
> about how the engineers weren't allowed to see what manufacturing did to get the
> computers out the door.
And don't get started about the failure rate of those, I know a guy that used to work in the 'official' Dutch repair-center and they apparently got tons and tons of units almost straight from the retailer, failing within 24 hours after purchase, all on one of 3 or four major errors
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"Those voices in his head might not be real, but they have really good ideas!"
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Re: Crazy Kong - Correct Sound For All Variants?
[Re: RATMNL]
#313822 - 09/02/13 11:03 AM
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> And don't get started about the failure rate of those, I know a guy that used to work
> in the 'official' Dutch repair-center and they apparently got tons and tons of units
> almost straight from the retailer, failing within 24 hours after purchase, all on one
> of 3 or four major errors
The first couple of Christmases were the worst, by shipping something they got you hooked.
My original c64 has always had major graphics corruption, there appears to be a timing issue on colour ram when one of the scroll positions is used. I ended up missing it when using an emulator or c128. Most games weren't affected as they didn't scroll color ram, but there were a few games that became so unplayable I had to fix them by changing the scrolling from 1 pixel per frame to 2 pixels every 2 frames.
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| RATMNL |
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Re: Crazy Kong - Correct Sound For All Variants?
[Re: ]
#313823 - 09/02/13 11:18 AM
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Ah yes... He mentioned Christmas...
Poor souls
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Re: Crazy Kong - Correct Sound For All Variants?
[Re: ]
#313824 - 09/02/13 11:24 AM
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> My original c64 has always had major graphics corruption, there appears to be a
> timing issue on colour ram when one of the scroll positions is used. I ended up
> missing it when using an emulator or c128. Most games weren't affected as they didn't
> scroll color ram, but there were a few games that became so unplayable I had to fix
> them by changing the scrolling from 1 pixel per frame to 2 pixels every 2 frames.
You hacked your games instead of taking your C64 to the repair shop..oh yeah
While you were doing that (probably) I was bullied for having a Spectrum. The extent of my coding ability was debugging BASIC programs typed in from books and magazines.
Those were hard times, when I was about 13-14 I knew two people who had a Spectrum...everyone else had a C64. And when they got Amigas I still had my Spectrum..
S
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| RATMNL |
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Re: Crazy Kong - Correct Sound For All Variants?
[Re: Sune]
#313828 - 09/02/13 12:25 PM
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> > My original c64 has always had major graphics corruption, there appears to be a
> > timing issue on colour ram when one of the scroll positions is used. I ended up
> > missing it when using an emulator or c128. Most games weren't affected as they
> didn't
> > scroll color ram, but there were a few games that became so unplayable I had to fix
> > them by changing the scrolling from 1 pixel per frame to 2 pixels every 2 frames.
>
> You hacked your games instead of taking your C64 to the repair shop..oh yeah
>
> While you were doing that (probably) I was bullied for having a Spectrum. The extent
> of my coding ability was debugging BASIC programs typed in from books and magazines.
>
> Those were hard times, when I was about 13-14 I knew two people who had a
> Spectrum...everyone else had a C64. And when they got Amigas I still had my
> Spectrum..
>
> S
Haha, I forgot all about those books, should have a few here,
50 Games for your VIC-20 or something along those lines.
I miss my VIC...
P.S. I didn't get it until we were well into the nineties, but as a 7 year old, it was pretty impressive to see what all those lines of code (finally) could do after a few days of intense copying, praying you didn't get a syntax error at line 'X'
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"Those voices in his head might not be real, but they have really good ideas!"
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Re: Crazy Kong - Correct Sound For All Variants?
[Re: Sune]
#313830 - 09/02/13 12:38 PM
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Re: Crazy Kong - Correct Sound For All Variants?
[Re: Sune]
#313846 - 09/02/13 04:33 PM
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> I was bullied for having a Spectrum
i had a spectrum and a c64 at different points, i preferred the spectrum to be honest, i just enjoyed the games more (eg. green beret and ghosts n goblins, call me crazy but i actually preferred the spectrum versions)
my only exceptions were uridium and paradroid, which were great c64 games.. oh and kikstart II and wizball and armalyte ... and raid over moscow... hmm, i could go on...
still preferred the speccy overall though 
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| AWJ |
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Re: Crazy Kong - Correct Sound For All Variants?
[Re: ]
#313852 - 09/02/13 06:06 PM
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> My original c64 has always had major graphics corruption, there appears to be a
> timing issue on colour ram when one of the scroll positions is used. I ended up
> missing it when using an emulator or c128. Most games weren't affected as they didn't
> scroll color ram, but there were a few games that became so unplayable I had to fix
> them by changing the scrolling from 1 pixel per frame to 2 pixels every 2 frames.
I had one of the few NTSC Commodore 16s in existence. It had some kind of hardware issue which I don't remember the details of because I was 5 at the time, but which my dad managed to overcome (overheating TED chip? I remember him opening it up and smearing grease on some component) He didn't manage to overcome the other problem, which was that half the game cassettes we bought didn't actually work because they were all European and any of them that used raster effects required PAL timing.
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Re: Crazy Kong - Correct Sound For All Variants?
[Re: grog]
#313858 - 09/02/13 08:31 PM
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Re: Crazy Kong - Correct Sound For All Variants?
[Re: AWJ]
#313859 - 09/02/13 08:48 PM
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> It had some kind of hardware
> issue which I don't remember the details of because I was 5 at the time, but which my
> dad managed to overcome (overheating TED chip? I remember him opening it up and
> smearing grease on some component)
The CPU was known for overheating. There was a mystery batch made by CSG in 1990 that solves the overheating problem. I can only imagine that someone in charge of production had a plus/4, because I don't think the 7501/8501 was used for anything else. Supposedly 50% of all plus/4 faults are a dead CPU & 40% are a dead TED.
It appears the NTSC C16's may have ended up here...
http://plus4world.powweb.com/hardware/390033
but with an all new TED
I didn't realise the standard versions were switchable.
http://www.fascinationsoftware.com/FS/html/Plus4-videoswitch.html
Edited by smf (09/02/13 08:58 PM)
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Re: Crazy Kong - Correct Sound For All Variants?
[Re: ]
#313861 - 09/02/13 09:26 PM
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> > (eg. green beret and ghosts n goblins, call me
> > crazy but i actually preferred the spectrum versions)
>
> You're crazy
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2e0XYahs6Y
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkslCLMX8qA
>
>
> I know c64 ghost'n goblins had some levels removed, as did commando (not sure about
> green beret but the spectrum long play is a lot longer than the c64 version).
Green Beret is the same as the arcade version on C64. I don't know why the ZX Spectrum is so long. Commando and GnG yes, they were cut to fit the all-in-one-load method. Multi-load games were not so common before 1987-1988.... except for Karateka by Broderbund to name one popular
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Re: Crazy Kong - Correct Sound For All Variants?
[Re: ]
#313874 - 09/03/13 01:44 AM
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> I know c64 ghost'n goblins had some levels removed, as did commando (not sure about
> green beret but the spectrum long play is a lot longer than the c64 version).
The Spectrum version scrolls a lot slower and the C64 longplayer is cheating I think.
Thanks for Bill Herd, at first I was mystified but going by the third video, that must be the natural state of his nipples.
Lots of fun stories.
S
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Re: Crazy Kong - Correct Sound For All Variants?
[Re: Mamesick]
#313907 - 09/03/13 11:09 AM
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> Multi-load games were not so common before 1987-1988.... except for Karateka
> by Broderbund to name one popular
They were common, but they were also annoying and spoilt the pace of the game.
I'm sure if they'd had longer development times then compression could have been added. Commando was developed from scratch in a couple of months.
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Re: Crazy Kong - Correct Sound For All Variants?
[Re: JonBoyRetro]
#314833 - 09/20/13 02:21 AM
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I've played that Big Kong machine (if you look at his other videos, you'll see some of my gameplay  ) It's got a bootleg Galaxian-hardware style board in it. The sounds are similar to what's in MAME on the Galaxian hardware versions of Crazy Kong, but I think it's a hardware issue, not an emulation one. There's a video of a Crazy Kong on Galaxian hardware cocktail with the screen all messed up, but the sounds are almost exactly the same as in MAME (video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w55jn_823ZI) The Big Kong in the video doesn't sound at all like the one in MAME because the one in MAME is on Falcon-style hardware. And while we're talking about Crazy Kong sounds, there's something not quite right in MAME too, on the Falcon-style hardware ones. On a real PCB, if you get points and make run or climb, it does a lower pitched version of the chest beat sound at the same time, and if you keep running, it'll also do the static sound (which is in MAME) along with that lower pitched chest beat sound. It also will do it sometimes when you pick up a prize, take out a rivet, smash something with a hammer, or climb the top ladder to clear the board. It also does it if you walk while it's playing the little tune when you're almost out of time on the Part 2 variants. Here's a good example of how it plays on a real PCB. I've got a cocktail and several different PCB's and mine sounds exactly like this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bvk9_0FMz4
You can hear that lower pitched one whenever he picks up a prize or rivet and continues to run. It seems to do a double one most of the time on the prize and rivet, but a single one when jumping over a barrel, for some reason (mine do that too)
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Re: Crazy Kong - Correct Sound For All Variants?
[Re: JonBoyRetro]
#314840 - 09/20/13 03:27 AM
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Re: Crazy Kong - Correct Sound For All Variants?
[Re: ]
#315078 - 09/26/13 10:57 PM
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Quote:
Commando was developed from scratch in a couple of months.
Quote:
Green Beret is the same as the arcade version on C64
Which is why it sucked and still sucks ass. Perhaps these folks were using such computers in their labs?
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Re: Crazy Kong - Correct Sound For All Variants?
[Re: JonBoyRetro]
#365906 - 05/10/17 10:59 PM
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Hi,
I have now found the correct sounds from one of my own boards. As you can hear, the sound is much deeper than MAME. Perhaps can be logged as a bug?
Cheers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7Eg-XYWn94
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God, I miss those dark, musty arcades ....
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Re: Crazy Kong - Correct Sound For All Variants?
[Re: JonBoyRetro]
#365907 - 05/10/17 11:01 PM
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You can barely hear it. They need more than just a low quality video to go off of
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Re: Crazy Kong - Correct Sound For All Variants?
[Re: Envisaged0ne]
#365913 - 05/11/17 12:37 AM
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> You can barely hear it. They need more than just a low quality video to go off of
and we'd want a dump from the specific board that does it.
given what's been said, the version he's talking about is probably a random bootleg conversion, bootlegs and the original had different sound systems, so simply logging it as a bug in Crazy Kong would be wrong.
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Re: Crazy Kong - Correct Sound For All Variants?
[Re: JonBoyRetro]
#365925 - 05/11/17 06:54 AM
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You can get a cheap Dazzle DVC 100 USB compatible for around 15 bucks on ebay that can do the job of direct recording on most pcbs. You might have to convert the sound with a car audio converter to get it into RCA but that's like a dollar. My 2 cents.
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Crazy Kong - Correct Sound For All Variants?
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[Re: 
) It's got a bootleg Galaxian-hardware style board in it. The sounds are similar to what's in MAME on the Galaxian hardware versions of Crazy Kong, but I think it's a hardware issue, not an emulation one. There's a video of a Crazy Kong on Galaxian hardware cocktail with the screen all messed up, but the sounds are almost exactly the same as in MAME (video here: 
