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DU December Update III
#319339 - 12/28/13 01:38 AM
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ShouTime dumped his Netmerc and got OutRun - original JP version with FD1089A (317-0019) and Time Scanner - 16A version with FD1089B (317-0024). He is working with Charles on the System 16 games to dump the keys. Andrew Welburn dumped an Italian bootleg of Centipede.
Also Rhythm Tengoku arrived.
Edited by Smitdogg (12/28/13 02:10 AM)
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Re: DU December Update III
[Re: Smitdogg]
#319340 - 12/28/13 01:52 AM
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This centipede look how a Olympia or Sidam version
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Re: DU December Update III
[Re: Smitdogg]
#319371 - 12/28/13 03:25 PM
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Rhythm tengoku was a Naomi game ? Cooool !
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Re: DU December Update III
[Re: -Mitaine-]
#319378 - 12/28/13 06:06 PM
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It was ported to arcade after the GBA success. The control panel is like blown up GBA/NES controls and the arcade port has added exclusive content.
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| gregf |
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Ramtek's Trivia promoter
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Re: DU December Update III
[Re: Smitdogg]
#319393 - 12/28/13 11:16 PM
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>got OutRun - original JP version with FD1089A (317-0019) and Time Scanner - 16A version
>with FD1089B (317-0024).
Good to see Time Scanner is now resolved and that a couple more Sega versions are prevented from being "permanently lost".
Edited by gregf (02/09/14 11:47 AM)
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Re: DU December Update III
[Re: gregf]
#319414 - 12/29/13 08:03 AM
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Time Scanner is one of those games where we found the decryption key by brute force (which thanks to Aaron is very easy to do now), but we had to guess the contents of the "is data encrypted here" table. Since the memory maps of all these boards are well known, the guessed data is very likely correct. But in the end there's still room for error, and ultimately a known good dump is needed.
All the games marked as having partial keys ([2]) in the following file will need redumping in time, assuming we can find working FD1089s. Though I think this list isn't up to date with some of our recently dumped keys:
http://mamedev.org/source/src/mame/machine/fd1089.c.html
I haven't tried Time Scanner in MAME recently so I don't know if the new key will fix anything, but at least having a complete key will mean we know any outstanding gameplay issues aren't encryption related.
Getting Netmerc was pretty incredible, can't wait to see how it turns out!
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| drewcifer |
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One bad Mutha-(shut yo' mouth!)
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> Getting Netmerc was pretty incredible, can't wait to see how it turns out!
Yeah, the unusualness of Netmerc is pretty astronomical. Like, significantly less than a handful of these things were ever made, astronomical. Just to everyone knows, it's this thing:
http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=712&page=1#2023
And, unsurprisingly, it doesn't just drop into the driver. Hopefully it won't be really tough to make work, but it's hard to say. It's got some really interesting bits - one of them is the tracking hardware that takes the 3d input; it looks a lot like a primitive Nintendo Wii controller and runs on a 186.
Time will tell!
Andrew
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| Sune |
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Connected
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Re: DU December Update III
[Re: drewcifer]
#319436 - 12/29/13 07:15 PM
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> http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=712&page=1#2023
>
> And, unsurprisingly, it doesn't just drop into the driver. Hopefully it won't be
> really tough to make work, but it's hard to say. It's got some really interesting
> bits - one of them is the tracking hardware that takes the 3d input; it looks a lot
> like a primitive Nintendo Wii controller and runs on a 186.
>
> Time will tell!
> Andrew
Ohh shiny
Maybe Toby still has an email adress for the programmer?
S
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Re: DU December Update III
[Re: drewcifer]
#319482 - 12/30/13 03:09 PM
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> And, unsurprisingly, it doesn't just drop into the driver.
I believe Model 1 is still needing decaps of some of the chips, we'd perhaps need decaps from this netmerc board too.
We were using patched code from Daytona to run virtua racing at some point, if we still are then netmerc is likely to not be happy.
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| drewcifer |
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One bad Mutha-(shut yo' mouth!)
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Re: DU December Update III
[Re: ]
#319499 - 12/30/13 11:21 PM
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> I believe Model 1 is still needing decaps of some of the chips, we'd perhaps need
> decaps from this netmerc board too.
Model 1's 3d graphics processors (the TGPs) had been mostly HLE'd before the Daytona work came along (though the Daytona stuff did bring along the final touches to make Virtua Racing work... better.). The decaps will, however, make us much happier with the emulation since it won't be HLE guesswork anymore. It really is amazing how far the original driver authors got with the HLE'ing though.
The biggest question is which video board Netmerc runs on - there are two different video boards for model 1 with two different internal programs. The VR & VF video boards are interchangeable, the SWA & Wingwar boards are interchangeable. Which video board Netmerc uses will be interesting to learn, as it seems unlikely they reprogrammed the TGPs for the Netmerc boards.
In other words, there's a good chance Netmerc will work reasonably well with the current HLE stuff. Of course since it is HLE, there's a big chance the new software will reveal an issue, but we'll see!
/Andrew
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Re: DU December Update III
[Re: drewcifer]
#319505 - 12/31/13 01:58 AM
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So when Andy Reece says that it was programmed entirely in assembler... does he really mean EVERYTHING? Like the music and graphics too? How do you even begin to do such a thing?
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Just broke my personal record for number of consecutive days without dying!
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Re: DU December Update III
[Re: drewcifer]
#319519 - 12/31/13 12:47 PM
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> The biggest question is which video board Netmerc runs on - there are two different
> video boards for model 1 with two different internal programs. The VR & VF video
> boards are interchangeable, the SWA & Wingwar boards are interchangeable. Which video
> board Netmerc uses will be interesting to learn, as it seems unlikely they
> reprogrammed the TGPs for the Netmerc boards.
According to the driver it's the CPU board that has the TGP that differs.
It's hard to say whether it will have a different TGP. Those chips are off the shelf chips with a mask option, so if they ordered a new lot then getting a new program included wouldn't be a problem. Obviously they'd need to do development work to do that, it depends on how invested sega were in the project up front. It could have just been a "use whatever boards we have lying around" type project or it could have been more important, you can't really tell.
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Re: DU December Update III
[Re: URherenow]
#319520 - 12/31/13 01:00 PM
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> So when Andy Reece says that it was programmed entirely in assembler... does he
> really mean EVERYTHING? Like the music and graphics too? How do you even begin to do
> such a thing?
He is a programmer so his everything could just relate to what he did. But to play music you need a program, which if he wrote it then it was written in assembler.
The sound samples, notes and 3d models are unlikely to have been created using an assembler, however it is possible to do it. Rob Hubbard programmed all his tunes using a machine code monitor & graphics in the old days were drawn onto graph paper and then converted to hex and entered into an assembler/monitor/burnt straight into a rom.
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Re: DU December Update III
[Re: Smitdogg]
#319541 - 12/31/13 11:00 PM
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Is the Rhythm Tengoku arcade going to be released as a rom maybe? I really want it 
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Re: DU December Update III
[Re: LucaRH]
#319543 - 12/31/13 11:10 PM
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Every dump announced here gets eventually added to mame and then rom site people find them and host them.
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Re: DU December Update III
[Re: Smitdogg]
#319544 - 12/31/13 11:17 PM
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Awesome! Is there any predicted date the RT rom would be dumped, and where would it be released at first? Sorry I'm new here
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Re: DU December Update III
[Re: LucaRH]
#319546 - 12/31/13 11:41 PM
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Nope. The people involved with Naomi cart dumping are very busy and I don't keep up with rom sites.
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: DU December Update III
[Re: URherenow]
#319589 - 01/01/14 06:29 PM
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> So when Andy Reece says that it was programmed entirely in assembler... does he
> really mean EVERYTHING? Like the music and graphics too? How do you even begin to do
> such a thing?
How do you think 8 and 16 bit games were made? 
Mind you, music usually came through .MID and graphics through the MS-DOS version of DeluxePaint II, but it's entirely possible to enter both as raw hex in assembly source too, as smf described.
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Re: DU December Update III
[Re: R. Belmont]
#323924 - 03/29/14 11:56 PM
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There was an early C compiler for the Model 1 system, but the linker didn't work so the decision was made by Virtuality to write the entire game in V60 assembler. At that time only 2 software engineers at the company (myself and Stephen Northcott) had written games in assembler so we were put on the project and lived in Tokyo for a year to complete NetMerc at Sega's HQ.
As R.Belmont points out, almost all games of that era (8-bit, 16-bit, arcade) were written in assembler, so it would have been unusual to write it in a "high-level" language like C.
As for the graphics, because NetMerc was a flat-shaded-polygon 3D VR game, they were mathmatically generated in realtime by the on-board graphics DSPs. The 3D models themselves were created in Softimage on Silicon Graphics Indigo2 workstations by 2 Virtuality artists.
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Re: DU December Update III
[Re: Andy Reece]
#323934 - 03/30/14 07:05 AM
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> There was an early C compiler for the Model 1 system, but the linker didn't work so
> the decision was made by Virtuality to write the entire game in V60 assembler.
What did Sega do for their games? Were they written in assembler too?
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