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m7hacke
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DEC Rainbow 100
#375289 - 04/02/18 12:37 AM


Hi Everyone,

I am looking for help with emulation for the DEC Rainbow 100. I have the ROMs and disk image files for MS-DOS and CP/M. Now I am trying to get other software to run on it besides just booting an operating system. I can download software for the DEC Rainbow 100, but they are copies of the files from the original disks. How do I convert them to a Teledisk image file (.TD0), so I can use them in MAME?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.



BIOS-D
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Re: DEC Rainbow 100 new [Re: m7hacke]
#375296 - 04/02/18 06:18 AM


I can't help you with such a niche computer. However a quick search seems to indicate you can inject files to an already formatted diskette using any PC AT machine.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.sys.dec.micro/LqtdiPJCd6E
http://www.filewatcher.com/m/rx50.zip.6673-0.html
http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/vax/rx50.html

That's the only lead I could give you. When I transfer files to IBM PCs in MAME I burn them to CD-ROM images or use tools like IsoBuster to write directly to .img files. You could also write to a raw hard drive image and convert it with chdman or even transfer using communication ports or the Internet. Yet I haven't bothered with them because while effective requires a higher level of experiment and learning.



gregf
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Re: DEC Rainbow 100 new [Re: m7hacke]
#375299 - 04/02/18 09:58 AM






>I am looking for help with emulation for the DEC Rainbow 100.


It appears to still be work in progress since there are needed roms still not yet dumped and supported in MAME from some of the Rainbow computer systems.


comments within the rainbow.cpp source file do provide some informative instructions.

https://git.redump.net/mame/tree/src/mame/drivers/rainbow.cpp

COMP(1982, rainbow100a, rainbow, 0, rainbow, rainbow100b_in, rainbow_state, 0, "Digital Equipment Corporation", "Rainbow 100-A", MACHINE_IS_SKELETON)
COMP(1983, rainbow, 0, 0, rainbow, rainbow100b_in, rainbow_state, 0, "Digital Equipment Corporation", "Rainbow 100-B", MACHINE_IMPERFECT_GRAPHICS | MACHINE_IMPERFECT_COLORS)
COMP(1985, rainbow190, rainbow, 0, rainbow, rainbow100b_in, rainbow_state, 0, "Digital Equipment Corporation", "Rainbow 190-B", MACHINE_NOT_WORKING | MACHINE_IMPERFECT_COLORS)





>I have the ROMs and disk
>image files for MS-DOS and CP/M. Now I am trying to get other software to run on it besides
>just booting an operating system. I can download software for the DEC Rainbow 100, but they
>are copies of the files from the original disks. How do I convert them to a Teledisk image
>file (.TD0), so I can use them in MAME?

Some programs are already recognized and supported in MAME in the rainbow software hash file. I don't know if anyone else is in process of adding more Rainbow software entries in the Rainbow hash file at this time.


https://git.redump.net/mame/tree/hash/rainbow.xml



for other Rainbow stuff, the thread to really visit is on Bannister's site.


http://forums.bannister.org//ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=1&page=1





The specific Rainbow thread in order to post questions and possibly get answers would be in this specific thread because there are a few Rainbow users that can answer questions. Even though some of the posters are also here on MW, you should have better luck there in that thread compared to here imo. If not registered there yet, give it time in case you decide to register there to ask Rainbow questions. iirc It might take a while for new registers to get added on Bannister's users list, but that is where you might have Rainbow questions answered.


--
Requirements?
http://forums.bannister.org//ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=75773#Post75773

by rfka01


http://forums.bannister.org//ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=75773&page=45
--



m7hacke
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Posts: 18
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Re: DEC Rainbow 100 new [Re: BIOS-D]
#375306 - 04/02/18 02:42 PM


> I can't help you with such a niche computer. However a quick search seems to indicate
> you can inject files to an already formatted diskette using any PC AT machine.
>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.sys.dec.micro/LqtdiPJCd6E
> http://www.filewatcher.com/m/rx50.zip.6673-0.html
> http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/vax/rx50.html
>
> That's the only lead I could give you. When I transfer files to IBM PCs in MAME I
> burn them to CD-ROM images or use tools like IsoBuster to write directly to .img
> files. You could also write to a raw hard drive image and convert it with chdman or
> even transfer using communication ports or the Internet. Yet I haven't bothered with
> them because while effective requires a higher level of experiment and learning.

Thank you. I don't have access to a PC with a floppy drive. I will look into your other suggestions.



m7hacke
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Posts: 18
Loc: Buffalo Grove, IL
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Re: DEC Rainbow 100 new [Re: gregf]
#375309 - 04/02/18 03:03 PM


> > I am looking for help with emulation for the DEC Rainbow 100.
>
>
> It appears to still be work in progress since there are needed roms still not yet
> dumped and supported in MAME from some of the Rainbow computer systems.
>
>
> comments within the rainbow.cpp source file do provide some informative
> instructions.
>
> https://git.redump.net/mame/tree/src/mame/drivers/rainbow.cpp
>
> COMP(1982, rainbow100a, rainbow, 0, rainbow, rainbow100b_in, rainbow_state, 0,
> "Digital Equipment Corporation", "Rainbow 100-A", MACHINE_IS_SKELETON)
> COMP(1983, rainbow, 0, 0, rainbow, rainbow100b_in, rainbow_state, 0, "Digital
> Equipment Corporation", "Rainbow 100-B", MACHINE_IMPERFECT_GRAPHICS |
> MACHINE_IMPERFECT_COLORS)
> COMP(1985, rainbow190, rainbow, 0, rainbow, rainbow100b_in, rainbow_state, 0,
> "Digital Equipment Corporation", "Rainbow 190-B", MACHINE_NOT_WORKING |
> MACHINE_IMPERFECT_COLORS)
>
>
> > I have the ROMs and disk
> > image files for MS-DOS and CP/M. Now I am trying to get other software to run on it
> besides
> > just booting an operating system. I can download software for the DEC Rainbow 100,
> but they
> > are copies of the files from the original disks. How do I convert them to a Teledisk
> image
> > file (.TD0), so I can use them in MAME?
>
> Some programs are already recognized and supported in MAME in the rainbow software
> hash file. I don't know if anyone else is in process of adding more Rainbow software
> entries in the Rainbow hash file at this time.
>
>
> https://git.redump.net/mame/tree/hash/rainbow.xml
>
>
> for other Rainbow stuff, the thread to really visit is on Bannister's site.
>
>
> http://forums.bannister.org//ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=1&page=1
>
>
> The specific Rainbow thread in order to post questions and possibly get answers
> would be in this specific thread because there are a few Rainbow users that can
> answer questions. Even though some of the posters are also here on MW, you should
> have better luck there in that thread compared to here imo. If not registered there
> yet, give it time in case you decide to register there to ask Rainbow questions. iirc
> It might take a while for new registers to get added on Bannister's users list, but
> that is where you might have Rainbow questions answered.
>
>
> --
> Requirements?
> http://forums.bannister.org//ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=75773#Post75773
>
> by rfka01
>
>
> http://forums.bannister.org//ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=75773&page=45
> --

Thank you for all of this information. Some I already knew and some I will look through.

I registered on Bannister several days ago and my account has not been approved yet.

I think the only problem I have is taking the files that I can download and converting them to a Teledisk image. once they are in .TD0 format I should be able to mount them, but I have been having trouble converting them. I tried using DOS Box to trick Teledisk into thinking a folder on my hard drive that contians Zork, for example, was my A: drive, but it said it could not read the disk.



BIOS-D
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Re: DEC Rainbow 100 new [Re: m7hacke]
#375312 - 04/02/18 04:30 PM


> Thank you. I don't have access to a PC with a floppy drive. I will look into your
> other suggestions.

You don't have a PC with a floppy drive but you can emulate a PC in MAME with a floppy drive.

The point is theoretically you could load the files to an emulated IBM PC machine and then copy them to a formatted RX50 floppy image using the DOS driver.

My experience doing that kind of things vary though. I can't simply create a floppy disk image with IsoBuster then expect it to be read by MAME right away, I ended up with read/write errors. I would have to create a blank disk into MAME, format it with DOS into MAME and then use the resulting blank disk image to inject external files using IsoBuster.

I would try creating a formatted blank disk on Rainbow 100 and then use that blank disk image to copy external files on an emulated IBM PC environment. You could also start by trying to read a softlist .TD0 disk on an ibm5170 machine with the DOS RX50 driver.



m7hacke
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Posts: 18
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Re: DEC Rainbow 100 new [Re: BIOS-D]
#375316 - 04/02/18 05:56 PM


> > Thank you. I don't have access to a PC with a floppy drive. I will look into your
> > other suggestions.
>
> You don't have a PC with a floppy drive but you can emulate a PC in MAME with a
> floppy drive.
>
> The point is theoretically you could load the files to an emulated IBM PC machine and
> then copy them to a formatted RX50 floppy image using the DOS driver.
>
> My experience doing that kind of things vary though. I can't simply create a floppy
> disk image with IsoBuster then expect it to be read by MAME right away, I ended up
> with read/write errors. I would have to create a blank disk into MAME, format it with
> DOS into MAME and then use the resulting blank disk image to inject external files
> using IsoBuster.
>
> I would try creating a formatted blank disk on Rainbow 100 and then use that blank
> disk image to copy external files on an emulated IBM PC environment. You could also
> start by trying to read a softlist .TD0 disk on an ibm5170 machine with the DOS RX50
> driver.

So just to be clear what you are saying. You want me to create a virtual formatted blank disk using MAME (Rainbow 100)? The way I would do this is to boot the emulated Rainbow 100 by using either MS-DOS or CP/M (depending on what kind of formatted disk I want). Then I would assume I would use the command FORMAT B:. I'm not sure if that will work because there would not be anything mounted to drive B:. I will try this first step after work today.

Whether I make any progress or not, I really appreciate your help.



BIOS-D
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Re: DEC Rainbow 100 new [Re: m7hacke]
#375322 - 04/02/18 10:44 PM


> So just to be clear what you are saying. You want me to create a virtual formatted
> blank disk using MAME (Rainbow 100)? The way I would do this is to boot the emulated
> Rainbow 100 by using either MS-DOS or CP/M (depending on what kind of formatted disk
> I want). Then I would assume I would use the command FORMAT B:. I'm not sure if that
> will work because there would not be anything mounted to drive B:. I will try this
> first step after work today.
>
> Whether I make any progress or not, I really appreciate your help.

That's right:
- Create virtual formatted blank disk on Rainbow 100.
- Load that blank disk on PC AT environment using the DOS driver I linked above.*
- Copy the files to the blank disk.**

Make sure to config and use properly the disk drive you need. MAME can't tell the difference between double density and high density drives/floppies. Mixing them makes the disks unreadable (i.e. a 5 1/4 DD drive can't read a 5 1/4 HD floppy).

*Given the context you already know DOS, I don't need you to explain how a "DEVICE=RX50DRVR.SYS" works on config.sys.
**You need to copy them beforehand with any of the methods I described before.



m7hacke
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Posts: 18
Loc: Buffalo Grove, IL
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Re: DEC Rainbow 100 new [Re: BIOS-D]
#375331 - 04/03/18 03:15 AM


> > So just to be clear what you are saying. You want me to create a virtual formatted
> > blank disk using MAME (Rainbow 100)? The way I would do this is to boot the
> emulated
> > Rainbow 100 by using either MS-DOS or CP/M (depending on what kind of formatted
> disk
> > I want). Then I would assume I would use the command FORMAT B:. I'm not sure if
> that
> > will work because there would not be anything mounted to drive B:. I will try this
> > first step after work today.
> >
> > Whether I make any progress or not, I really appreciate your help.
>
> That's right:
> - Create virtual formatted blank disk on Rainbow 100.
> - Load that blank disk on PC AT environment using the DOS driver I linked above.*
> - Copy the files to the blank disk.**
>
> Make sure to config and use properly the disk drive you need. MAME can't tell the
> difference between double density and high density drives/floppies. Mixing them makes
> the disks unreadable (i.e. a 5 1/4 DD drive can't read a 5 1/4 HD floppy).
>
> *Given the context you already know DOS, I don't need you to explain how a
> "DEVICE=RX50DRVR.SYS" works on config.sys.
> **You need to copy them beforehand with any of the methods I described before.

Thank you. I don't have time tonight to try this. I'm not sure when I will have time, but I do appreciate your help.



m7hacke
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Posts: 18
Loc: Buffalo Grove, IL
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Re: DEC Rainbow 100 new [Re: m7hacke]
#375364 - 04/04/18 02:54 AM


I was able to format a MS-DOS disk using the MAME Rainbow 100 emulator, but I had to mount another disk image in drive B: inorder for it to work. It would not work with nothing mounted in drive B: as I susspected.

I then tried to format a CP/M disk and it seemed to work, but when I exit out of MAME and go back in, the disk still has on it what it did before the format. I really want a CP/M formated disk because that is the version of Zork I found. My goal has always been to get Zork running.

Anyway, I have made progress with your help and I will try to put files on the MS-DOS disk I created at another time

Thank you.



m7hacke
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Reged: 04/02/18
Posts: 18
Loc: Buffalo Grove, IL
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Re: DEC Rainbow 100 new [Re: m7hacke]
#375382 - 04/05/18 07:41 PM


I want to try the next step, which is copying files onto the TD0 disk image file. You said I should use IsoBuster to do this, correct? I looked up IsoBuster and I don't see how that is the correct tool to use for that. I haven't downloaded it yet, but I want to be sure that is what you meant. Do I do use IsoBuster in a Windows environment?



BIOS-D
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Re: DEC Rainbow 100 new [Re: m7hacke]
#375398 - 04/06/18 02:55 AM


> I want to try the next step, which is copying files onto the TD0 disk image file. You
> said I should use IsoBuster to do this, correct? I looked up IsoBuster and I don't
> see how that is the correct tool to use for that. I haven't downloaded it yet, but I
> want to be sure that is what you meant. Do I do use IsoBuster in a Windows
> environment?

Well, IsoBuster not only lets you manage ISO files but floppy disk images too. However I doubt it can handle RX50 media and so far I've only tried with MS-DOS FAT formatted diskettes. That's why I told you to get your files copied to an IBM PC environment first, so you can read/write RX50 diskette images with it using a special driver and then move the files on them so you can finally use them on your Rainbow 100 emulation.

Looking at the Rainbow 100 wiki entry the system also supports hard drives, I'm not sure if MAME has support for them too. If that were true you could also save a few steps by copying your files to a hard drive image and then use chdman tool so you can attach it to the emulation. This thread here has how to do it on IBM PC systems, maybe it could help you with Rainbow 100 too. Mhh, that topic talks about PowerISO instead of IsoBuster, maybe I'm confusing the program. Anyway, it doesn't hurt to try both of them.



crazyc
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Re: DEC Rainbow 100 new [Re: m7hacke]
#375401 - 04/06/18 04:29 AM Attachment: bootbar.zip 199 KB (5 downloads)


Isobuster won't read teledisk images and there's nothing which will write to them. Attached is a bootable image that will allow you to mount regular raw 360K pc images in flop3 and drive letter i:.



m7hacke
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Re: DEC Rainbow 100 new [Re: crazyc]
#375476 - 04/07/18 08:50 PM Attachment: zork.zip 189 KB (3 downloads)


> Isobuster won't read teledisk images and there's nothing which will write to them.
> Attached is a bootable image that will allow you to mount regular raw 360K pc images
> in flop3 and drive letter i:.

Great! Thak you. How do I use it? I was able to mount your .img file to flop1 and use it to boot the emulated Rainbow 100, but I don't know where to go from there.

I tried mounting my raw disk of Zork in flop3, like you mentioned, but the emulator would not even start because it did not recognize the disk format.

Attached is what I am trying to get running. It supposedly is a Rainbow 100 CP/M version of Zork. So I need a CP/M version of what you gave me.

Edited by m7hacke (04/07/18 09:04 PM)



crazyc
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Re: DEC Rainbow 100 new [Re: m7hacke]
#375478 - 04/08/18 02:04 AM Attachment: RBCPM86_IMD.zip 239 KB (4 downloads)


There's a CP/M boot image here but your zork binaries need to be in a disk image to work not just loose files. Doing that is going to be difficult.

Edit: cpmtools can write to rx50 floppy images. I couldn't fit zork 3.



Edited by crazyc (04/08/18 02:46 AM)



Bavarese
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Re: DEC Rainbow 100 new [Re: BIOS-D]
#375499 - 04/08/18 04:27 PM Attachment: Rainbow_100_Utilities_BAVARESE.7z 199 KB (11 downloads)


Hi,

i am one of the maintainers of the Rainbow driver. Let me answer some questions i saw previously.

A Rainbow-100-A is not emulated because nobody to date dumped the ROMs (and the ones online are fake).

TeleDisk needs 100 % real iron and a non-USB diskette controller As far as i know, it is useless in Dosbox.

The Rainbow diskette format is interleaved and has nothing in common with standard PCs, so you will need customized tools to manipulate them.
PowerISO and all modern PC utilites aren't capable (this includes PUTR which claims to handle RX50 disks, but destroys Rainbow-100 boot sectors).

Attached is a .NET executable to skew/unskew 400 K DEC-DOS image files (for use with DiskExplorer 1.69E...see linked PDF). A tested version of Cpmtools for Windows is also provided.

Existing 400 K image files (exactly 409.600 bytes; type *.IMG) - and *.TD0 files can be mounted directly in emulation (in MAME/MESS).

A few Rainbow-100 archives are still online (Latrobe, Goodnight, Decus, mirrors of ftp.update.uu.se).

Current Rainbow-100 B emulation in MESS has support for

- two RX-50 disk drives (A and B)
- one PC compatible 5.25 inch 360 K drive (Slot 3) ...with special drivers
- one PC compatible 3.5 inch 720 K drive (Slot 4) ...with special driver (the way to go for seamless data exchange with PC)
- one single DEC RDX hard disk (up to 8 heads and 1024 cylinders and multiple partition types).
- up to four independent Corvus hard drives (CP/M 1 only, no drivers for DOS or other OS seem to have survived)
- all known variants of the ClikClok (a real time clock sold by Suitable Solutions)
- 7220 Color Graphics (marked as imperfect; many games run but colors are too dark; AutoCad 2 omits lines / patterns)
- different types of monitors (including homebrew dual monitor)

Read more in my introductory PDF (with instructions on how to create suitable hard disks with Chdman)
First steps with the Rainbow-100

Serial and printer were fixed around 0.196 (not reflected in document above).

Another source for info are notes in the Rainbow driver

Edited by Bavarese (04/08/18 08:28 PM)



m7hacke
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Re: DEC Rainbow 100 new [Re: crazyc]
#375512 - 04/09/18 01:02 AM


> There's a CP/M boot image here but your zork binaries need to be in a disk image to
> work not just loose files. Doing that is going to be difficult.
>
> Edit: cpmtools can write to rx50 floppy images. I couldn't fit zork 3.

First let me say, woohoo!!! The Rainbow 100 was the first platform I ever played ZorkI on, so this really takes me back. Thank you soooo much. I don't care about ZorkIII. It was just in the zip file I downloaded.

I already had a CP/M bootable .TDO file.

I also knew that the Zork files needed to be on a RX50 disk image, but I had no idea how to do that. Obvioulsy you do.

Thank you again.



m7hacke
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Reged: 04/02/18
Posts: 18
Loc: Buffalo Grove, IL
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Re: DEC Rainbow 100 new [Re: Bavarese]
#375514 - 04/09/18 01:08 AM


> Hi,
>
> i am one of the maintainers of the Rainbow driver. Let me answer some questions i saw
> previously.
>
> A Rainbow-100-A is not emulated because nobody to date dumped the ROMs (and the ones
> online are fake).
>
> TeleDisk needs 100 % real iron and a non-USB diskette controller As far as i know, it
> is useless in Dosbox.
>
> The Rainbow diskette format is interleaved and has nothing in common with standard
> PCs, so you will need customized tools to manipulate them.
> PowerISO and all modern PC utilites aren't capable (this includes PUTR which claims
> to handle RX50 disks, but destroys Rainbow-100 boot sectors).
>
> Attached is a .NET executable to skew/unskew 400 K DEC-DOS image files (for use with
> DiskExplorer 1.69E...see linked PDF). A tested version of Cpmtools for Windows is
> also provided.
>
> Existing 400 K image files (exactly 409.600 bytes; type *.IMG) - and *.TD0 files can
> be mounted directly in emulation (in MAME/MESS).
>
> A few Rainbow-100 archives are still online (Latrobe, Goodnight, Decus, mirrors of
> ftp.update.uu.se).
>
> Current Rainbow-100 B emulation in MESS has support for
>
> - two RX-50 disk drives (A and B)
> - one PC compatible 5.25 inch 360 K drive (Slot 3) ...with special drivers
> - one PC compatible 3.5 inch 720 K drive (Slot 4) ...with special driver (the way to
> go for seamless data exchange with PC)
> - one single DEC RDX hard disk (up to 8 heads and 1024 cylinders and multiple
> partition types).
> - up to four independent Corvus hard drives (CP/M 1 only, no drivers for DOS or other
> OS seem to have survived)
> - all known variants of the ClikClok (a real time clock sold by Suitable Solutions)
> - 7220 Color Graphics (marked as imperfect; many games run but colors are too dark;
> AutoCad 2 omits lines / patterns)
> - different types of monitors (including homebrew dual monitor)
>
> Read more in my introductory PDF (with instructions on how to create suitable hard
> disks with Chdman)
> First steps with the Rainbow-100
>
> Serial and printer were fixed around 0.196 (not reflected in document above).
>
> Another source for info are notes in the Rainbow driver

There you are. I have been trying to contact you because I found out from reading the What's New in MAME files that you are the developer for Rainbow 100 emulation. Thank you for chiming in. You have given me a lot of great information and software here. I just need to find the time to go through it all.

Thanks again.



m7hacke
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Posts: 18
Loc: Buffalo Grove, IL
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Re: DEC Rainbow 100 new [Re: Bavarese]
#375563 - 04/10/18 03:26 PM


Do you have a keyboard mapping diagram for the Rainbow 100, so I can figure out which keys do what?



Bavarese
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Posts: 5
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Re: DEC Rainbow 100 new [Re: m7hacke]
#375578 - 04/11/18 01:50 PM


Why don't you look at the PDF i posted recently?

Right on page 4 there is a diagram with the mapping.

In short: key assignment is 1:1 except for F13-F20 and Find/Select.

Special key assignments are explained at the bottom of page 4.

Edited by Bavarese (04/11/18 01:56 PM)



m7hacke
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Posts: 18
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Re: DEC Rainbow 100 new [Re: Bavarese]
#375583 - 04/11/18 09:16 PM


> Why don't you look at the PDF i posted recently?
>
> Right on page 4 there is a diagram with the mapping.
>
> In short: key assignment is 1:1 except for F13-F20 and Find/Select.
>
> Special key assignments are explained at the bottom of page 4.

Thank you.



Willyk
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Loc: NH
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Re: DEC Rainbow 100 new [Re: m7hacke]
#381703 - 03/24/19 06:39 PM


m7hacke asked about making a teledisk image. I am new here, and was surprised no one seems to remember those days. I maintain a page about this at www.willsworks.net/file-format/teledisk
some of my info maybe of interest, but follow the link to
Dave Dunfields 'Image Disk' program which should do what you asked for. Hope you have solved your problem long ago!



Bavarese
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Posts: 5
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Re: DEC Rainbow 100 new [Re: m7hacke]
#382269 - 05/02/19 02:19 PM


Here is the January 2019 edition of my PDF ("first steps on the Rainbow-100"):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/y5p2yidghdmbpym/First_steps_Rainbow%20100-B_January_2019_edition.pdf?dl=1

Status of driver / introduction
A. Keyboard selection
B. the DEC LK201 (US) keyboard layout
C. Key reassignments in MAME/MESS
D. Diskettes / data exchange
D1. PC disks
D2. CP/M disk access (cpmtools)
E. Primary hard disk
E1. How to properly install DOS 3.10 on HD1
E2. How to install CP/M 86-80 V2
E3. How to install Concurrent CP/M
F. Corvus hard disks
G. Using the bit banger for serial communication
H. Windows 1 with (or without) a mouse
I. Links & documentation

Note: data exchange via PC drive on C + D is currently broken; use Rainbow native format instead.


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