MAMEWorld Forums - EmuChat - What do the analog controls settings equate to?

> The market for using second hand real 720 controllers out of busted cabs is
> absolutely as niche as it gets. If you looked up niche market it the dictionary, this
> might as well be in as an example. And in fact, it would be an extremely small niche
> market. Calling it niche would be an ego boost for this minuscule group of
> go-getters.
>
> ---
>
> -You really do not think in realistic terms. When
> A MFG like Atari made Videos... they didnt make 500.
> They made THOUSANDS. As in like 50,000... 200,000.
> The games were all over the states, multiples in every
> city, and even all over the world.

I'm on the arcade sections of eBay and other auction sites almost every day a.k.a. arcade junk yards. These 720 controllers being sold is quite rare and the amount of people buying them to put in MAME cabs is quite rare. If you want some advice, wait for this new one to start being produced, ask Derrick to forgive you for being an asshole, and buy one and send it to him and ask him to add support for it with a switch. That or keep acting like a little brat.

> Where do you think all those machines ended up?
> In hands of the public. People who liked the game, have
> the game. 720 was not the kind of cabinet that was easily
> convertible... and so its more than likely that there are
> more complete 720s out there than many other well known
> classics.

There are not 100,000 of these controllers out there waiting to be picked up by MAME people.

> And anyone who has one, is going to want to replace their
> worn out controller with a brand spanking new one. Especially considering that the
> controllers have some
> very wear prone parts inside of them.

Yes if they can find one for sale, to fix up their original cab, they would buy one. But that has nothing to do with MAME.

> You're wrong about "people who are actually interested in 720". It was a childhood
> favorite of mine yet I'm not seeking out this option. I just want it to play on
> typical PC hardware. I wouldn't complain if there was a 720orig switch added to
> mame.ini that let you hook up a real controller, but I wouldn't put on whatever this
> public display of yourself is that you are doing either.
>
> ---
>
> - Its obvious that you were not a big fan then. Because
> there are big fans out there, that Do invest in real
> controllers.

It's obvious that your comments are annoying.

> - And if you say you wouldnt complain about not being
> able to control a certain game... then either you really
> dont have passion for a game that uses unique controlls..
> or you are fearful a dev will Quit the Skene. Or Guru
> will threaten to charge you $10,000 in interest on money
> borrowed.

Wow, was that the best you could do? Maybe think that one over again and re-edit?

> - 720 is just One of the MANY games that dont control
> correct in Mame... for which options are very poor for
> those of us who are actually passionate about playing the
> games.

You flatter yourself throwing around that P word.

> Again wrong with the Starwars comment. Lots of people want to play it and play it in
> MAME with a mouse. There's a niche market for these controllers with Ramcontrols or
> whatever they call themselves seek to fill.
>
> - To this date, there is Huge demand for Starwars
> controllers. Yes, people Do play it with a mouse... but
> many of those same people are not content, and want to
> buy the real controller... and in fact ARE buying it. The
> price is a somewhat steep $300, not including the needed
> interface... and yet, its selling out faster than the guy
> can get a string of them made.

I already said earlier that there is a niche market for these Star Wars controllers which that company is filling, yet you still comment about it.

> Do you realize how many Starwars cabinets there were
> produced in the USA ALONE?! Its probably one of the most
> popular games ever made! People Love the custom controller,
> and nothing else really feels and controls as good as it,
> and thus, eventually, even if 1/10 the people who liked it
> as a kid bought it... added to the Cabinets that need them,
> and Ramcontrols will probably be selling them for Ages.

See above.

> BTW - What do you think happens when a person cant get
> parts for his cabinet to make the game play correctly?
> Ding Ding Ding... it gets Parted out. Or trashed
> completely. New parts = longer preservation of actual
> games.

So is this supposed to somehow tie in an argument that adding support for these niche controllers extends the life of original games? You're stretching on that one, huh? Mr. Fantastic. You just watched Fantastic 4.

> Also, many MGFs made custom pc parts, such as custom
> spinners, which means people are not hacking real tron
> panels to get the spinner. And if they did originally do
> that, they can now sell that panel back into the hands of
> a cabinet owner.
>
> ---
>
> I'm not under any delusions. I like how you think I'm the one out of line here yet
> you're the one pissing people off, including the people who could help your nichie
> cause.
>
> ---
>
> Really? Cause the people who seem to be doing the
> money collection, and the work on preservation, dont seem
> to care one bit. Which to anyone with passion for these
> games, is Infuriating. Including collectors, as well as
> again... the designers of the originals.

You're just trolling here and you know it.

> Quite simply, the people who Do have passion, Do the work.

You mean work on your home cabinet? Selfish work all for you? You do more work for MAME than I do?

> Im not going to walk on eggshells just cause someone who
> lacks passion, might quit. Im certainly not the only
> one person in this world who actually has a passion for
> the old games. And certainly not the only person who
> is ticked off that you cant play any of mames driving
> games with a real shifter... let alone all the other hacks
> that screw with controls, or limit the real output/inputs
> of the machines.
>
>
> And BTW - Jeff Anderson, a collector and person who runs
> VideoTopia, sold that Namco shooting gun to the local
> museum. People like him actually have passion for games.
> But people like him, are not always very happy with people
> from the Mame collective... for reasons stated above, as
> well as poor attitudes dished out.

Maybe you guys should hang out.

> Devs seem to have this idea that people who like the old
> games are a tiny group.

This is something you have made up.

> Its hilarious. Arcade games have
> been out there for decades, to all generations of people
> all over the world. In my small city, we had like 5
> large busy arcades. Ive played just about every classic
> ever made, and even some of the lesser known machines.
>
> In this city alone, I know like 15 collectors.. many of
> which own ENTIRE BASEMENTS FILLED WITH ARCADE / PINBALL
> MACHINES! In fact, when I worked at the arcade in the mall,
> I also Sold machines to the public.
>
> And Pinball? An even smaller more expensive hobby... which
> is supposed to be "Dead" and I know many pinball collects
> here, including myself, that have more than one machine.
>
> These machines just didnt all vanish, nor did the
> Passionate players throughout all the years. And if Mame
> made more of an Effort towards such passionate people,
> you would see a 100x rise in donation levels.
>
> The saying goes... You scratch my back, and Ill scratch
> yours.
>
> But pissing all over people by telling them what they
> cant do... giving them a hard time when they ask for
> something simple...and poor/no efforts made to rectify
> poor areas of preservation... along with threats and
> bad attitudes from people like "Guru"... and Donation
> levels are going to stay pathetic.

There doesn't seem to be much I can do to help Guru's attitude or social skills but you're one to talk.

> That has never happened in history, and you know it. It's real simple: you dump a
> game, your name is credited when it's added. After that, there is no relationship
> with the dumper unless his work turns out to be defective.
>
> So basically what you are saying, is that in the Internet world, there is no need
> for being Nice, even if its a "copy-cut-paste" generic reply?
>
> Is this how you handle your business in the real world?
> Someone drops a beautiful steak dinner on your plate.. and
> you simply walk away without even so much as a "Grunt" ?
>
> Just because it has not been so in the past, does not mean it should be so in the
> future.
>
> And in the case of someone like Jeff, who has an entire warehouse of games, and
> knows collectors and Ops all over the world... it would be better that someone does
> get buddy-buddy with him to see if there is anything else that could be dumped.
> Without any "Personal" connection, its unlikely that any such deals will be made, or
> be made in any timely manor. (IE: before its too late)

Jeff is probably pretty cool. It's about time you stop comparing yourself to him.

> The TX-1 I saved from getting destroyed/converted, was found 'Only' because of my
> Personal connections to many various collectors, who also know other collectors &
> ops.

Oh wow. Let me guess, you're about to be a buzz kill...

> I paid $2000 out of pocket to get Star Wars Trilogy dumped for MAME
>
> I pretty much lost most respect for you to even make that comment. The game is a big
> fat Pile of Steaming dog poop. The original is 1000x more fun & challenging to play.
>
> But anyways, if you think its unfair that you had to shoulder the costs... there are
> others that could have helped. Ohh, whats that? There is a dumping union that is
> comprised of various NON-DEVS?

Nice troll. First off, it's mostly non-mamedev. Second off, what's your point here, besides horrible grammar?

> One has to wonder exactly how much money to date, has
> the non-devs poured into the PCB dumping funds?

It's clear how much has gone through the DU.

> And how many non devs have donated
> and send in pcbs & dumped data?

Lots, including everything from myself...

> And how many non-devs who have done so, who really
> want accurate control capability?

Hmm I don't know, where are your supporters? You always speak for an invisible army? Are they as socially retarded as you? Dreamy. Sex tape.

> we can jump on whatever the BYOAC crowd has deemed indispensable in a given week.
>
> Mame is a Hypocritical convention. One one hand, it states that its all about
> accuracy and preservation. On the other, it cant be bothered to institute true
> accurate control of certain games.

No, your interpretation eats dick is the problem. Here is the interpretation you should get: People work on it in their free time with what is important to them keeping accuracy, preservation and the whole "spirit" in mind but not as a shackle. It never claimed to be perfect or to always support highly custom original cab controls wired to a PC by a mad man. You dreamed it.

> Ask for allowances for games where its impossible to control without the real
> controller... and you get told they will Not modify it because thats not how the
> arcade worked. Ask for a game which is hacked so it cant be played with a real
> controller... and your told to STFU.

Eh, well "you're" told the latter. Agreed there.

>
> Mame wants such extreme precision, that Laserdiscs were just about Never going to be
> instituted because the team couldnt make any allowances or compromises at all. Yet
> when asking for VideoPinball artwork, they want a flat scan, not blacklight lit, not
> shown in correct perspective, simulated blacklight (yeah right), not accurate at all.
> Excellent preservation attitude ehh? Contradictory ? Nah.

I mean, is this really referring to my request? I have to assume since hardly anyone else will bother replying to you? Are you that petty? First, I'm not a mamedev. Second, I never said I was going to use the artwork as a flat scan without any further processing. More dreams? Seriously though, as soon as it comes up again for sale, I'd bid on it and send it to Mr. Do. Tick-tock, 5 years and counting.

>
> And what of documenting Sideart, or more importantly, Controls? In the future, will
> anyone know what a 720 controller looked like? How it operated? How it was
> constructed? A game without the properly designed and tested control is not an
> accurate representation of that game. It wont match the level of control a player
> has, nor will it behave the same ways in regards to tightly tested level designs and
> time restraints. Its not going to be accurate as was tested & designed, without the
> proper controller specs.

We could almost come to an agreement here if you weren't such an asshole about it. My preference would be detailed info about the cab in source notes to start with and an alt switch if a replacement controller ever gets manufactured (like the Act Labs light gun for guns).

> There are several games in mame that people have No clue as to what way they were
> controlled with. And because mames inputs show a jumbled mass of hacks, one wouldnt
> even know 'what is what' without a lot of outside research... and that is "IF" the
> manuals / info can be found easily. (in many cases, it cant)

They should be forced to find scare original arcade controls and know how to wire them up according to MAME whims. If they can't find them then they will have no clue. They will think it was controlled by a penis.

> Will anyone know what it actually looked like staring into a real video pinball
> machine? Or more impressive.. a Discs of Tron, which has like 3 levels of artwork
> depth? Not with mames current limits and lack of data collection.
>
> Now, I realize that some of this stuff would seem beyond what mames goals originally
> were. But to preserve an arcade machine in only "part"... is like preserving only the
> engine in an old classic car, and scrapping the rest. Its a historic injustice.
>
> Yes, it creates more difficulty in management, however, there are many other
> non-programmers who can help step up in the other areas. But, they cant do it without
> the proper frameworks added. Once the framework is in place, people all over can
> start better, more accurate preservation efforts, in mass effect.

Nobody is going to pre-program 3 levels of artwork or anything else into a game before the artwork is scanned/photo'd. If you have the Video Pinball artwork then do something with it. You've got to be the most annoying hypocrite in the world. You've had it for like 5 years and haven't gotten correct images yet? And yet you bitch at other people for much more difficult stuff? Please, just send your artwork to Mr. Do.

> If you want better service, you'll need to start paying $69.95 each time there's a
> version bump.
>
> People have asked nicely for features, and offered to pay for them... and have been
> turned down.
>
> So... Mames core principles of accuracy dont apply, and neither does money. Which
> leaves very little option but to get angered... especially when monies HAVE been
> Donated to the cause of PRESERVATION by such passionate peoples... such peoples who
> would love to actually enjoy these games the way they were DESIGNED to be played.

Here's what you don't get - nobody would have accepted your money or help if they would have known what was at the end of the handshake. We would have all just told you to go be mad in the corner.

> A game isnt just a CPU. Its a beast of multiple combined creations, which enlisted
> the talents of countless skill sets.
>
> Every part of a game is important. Just like every part of a classic car is
> important. And of course, a classic car isnt going to be worth much if its not
> drivable. Or if its hacked to "only" be driven with a Playstation
> controller.
>
> Tell me, if people in the future think its Fine to drive a real classic sports car
> with a PS2 controller... do you think its right to strip it of its real control
> option, and hack in a PS2 controller?

Congrats, you won the tard award.

> Just because it might be what the masses were asking, does not make it right. If
> people dont have access to the real controls of the car.. then fine, a hack will be
> necessary. But to those who have the real cars parts.. they shouldn't be denied the
> ability to, for instance, hook up a real shifter to the classic car.

Seriously dude, nobody even knows how to wire them to a PC. They can be added to MAME as a switch if you can figure it out and send in the code but assuming it to be done is something that I can't even come up with an accurate word to describe. It's like a mix between arrogance and expectancy theory and just plain dick hole.

Really though, you're a huge waste of time. Go back to BYOAC and... BYOAC. This Jeff guy seems pretty cool though. Tell him we want to make a trade. You for him.