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Recommendations for (close to) stock systems?
#370257 - 10/11/17 11:23 AM
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So my desktop system is now over 7 years old and I figure it might be time to invest in something that can do better on the more heavy-duty games in MAME.
Current system is a Dell Precision T3500, running a quad-core 8-threaded Xeon W3530 @ 2.8GHz. I've had good luck with Dells over the years.
Here's what I'm looking for:
* High-end CPU that's great for running MAME but also lots of cores for other tasks (building, Photoshop, video encoding, etc)
* Rock-solid stable motherboard
* Well-designed case with room for an optical drive and several HDDs, quiet fans
* Ideally available in a stock system or something that is trivially easy to slap together
Things I'm not concerned about:
* Overclocking to the edge (happy to run at stock speed or slightly overclocked on air)
* Graphics card (currently have a 2GB GeForce GTX 750 Ti, which seems to be totally adequate for what I need)
* Audio interface (happy with my current USB interface)
* Disks (know where to get them)
* RAM (know where to get it)
* OS (easy enough)
Honestly I hate playing with hardware and tweaking, so I'll avoid anything that is too complicated or risks stability. I just want to get a fast system that works.
Thanks in advance for any ideas!
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Re: Recommendations for (close to) stock systems?
[Re: AaronGiles]
#370259 - 10/11/17 02:34 PM
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> So my desktop system is now over 7 years old and I figure it might be time to invest
> in something that can do better on the more heavy-duty games in MAME.
>
> Current system is a Dell Precision T3500, running a quad-core 8-threaded Xeon W3530 @
> 2.8GHz. I've had good luck with Dells over the years.
>
> Here's what I'm looking for:
> * High-end CPU that's great for running MAME but also lots of cores for other tasks
> (building, Photoshop, video encoding, etc)
> * Rock-solid stable motherboard
> * Well-designed case with room for an optical drive and several HDDs, quiet fans
> * Ideally available in a stock system or something that is trivially easy to slap
> together
>
I'd say you can't really go wrong with a good Intel CPU and ASUS motherboard, I've actually found the more frills-free motherboards they have to be better if you don't care about overclocking etc.
I'm running a i7-4790K (at the 4GHz stock speed) and it's been fine for MAME and other tasks, although it's a generation or so behind now I believe so you can probably get a better current generation chip for less. I'm just running with the supplied CPU cooler, nothing fancy.
I have some mid-range Coolermaster case, those seem easy to work with, and a Corsair PSU because they've always been rock solid for me. The case has 2 fans fitted (I believe they were supplied with it)
The one thing I've noticed is that with each generation of machine I buy the whole process gets easier; I'm probably the clumsiest ham-handed person you're going to find and this whole thing was assembled in under an hour.
Interesting you mention not caring about the video card, because there's been a fair bit of talk over the year of how MAME could use them, and most of that talk boils down to basically writing software renderers to run on a recent card, possibly even requiring DirectX12 level tech. Of course nothing has actually happened yet.
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Re: Recommendations for (close to) stock systems?
[Re: AaronGiles]
#370260 - 10/11/17 04:11 PM
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If you're budget conscious, you can't go wrong with as Intel Core i3-7350K Kaby Lake Dual-Core 4.2 GHz for around $150.
The stock clock is 4.2GHz, which is good for MAME.
It only has dual cores, but it has hyperthreading.
If you want more cores, you can always go with one of the i5/i7 CPUs.
For motherboards, get something from ASUS.
Here's a decent budget barebones (motherboard, cpu, cooler, memory, case, psu) system...
PCPartPicker part list: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/vkgx8K
Price breakdown by merchant: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/vkgx8K/by_merchant/
CPU: Intel - Core i3-7350K 4.2GHz Dual-Core Processor ($140.99 @ Newegg Marketplace)
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master - Hyper 212 EVO 82.9 CFM Sleeve Bearing CPU Cooler ($19.99 @ Newegg)
Motherboard: Asus - H110M-E/M.2 Micro ATX LGA1151 Motherboard ($59.89 @ OutletPC)
Memory: G.Skill - Ripjaws V Series 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR4-2133 Memory ($145.98 @ OutletPC)
Case: Silverstone - TJ08B-E MicroATX Mini Tower Case ($98.99 @ SuperBiiz)
Power Supply: SeaSonic - 520W 80+ Bronze Certified Fully-Modular ATX Power Supply ($51.99 @ SuperBiiz)
Total: $517.83
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2017-10-11 09:58 EDT-0400
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| R. Belmont |
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Re: Recommendations for (close to) stock systems?
[Re: Haze]
#370262 - 10/11/17 05:47 PM
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> Interesting you mention not caring about the video card, because there's been a fair
> bit of talk over the year of how MAME could use them, and most of that talk boils
> down to basically writing software renderers to run on a recent card, possibly even
> requiring DirectX12 level tech. Of course nothing has actually happened yet.
Yeah, RetroArch has actually beaten us to that with their N64 RDP that runs entirely in a shader, although Ted's proof-of-concept branch that runs the Voodoo as a D3D11 shader is equivalent (and requires less GPU, I gather).
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: Recommendations for (close to) stock systems?
[Re: AaronGiles]
#370263 - 10/11/17 06:00 PM
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> So my desktop system is now over 7 years old and I figure it might be time to invest
> in something that can do better on the more heavy-duty games in MAME.
My current desktop system is an i7-6700K on an ASUS motherboard. It's got gobs of power for MAME and other demanding apps, but it's also an order of magnitude cooler and quieter than the heavily overclocked Sandy Bridge machine that it replaced. It UEFI dual-boots Fedora 26 and Win10.
However, the Coffee Lake i7-8700K is now shipping, which bumps things from 4 cores + HT to 6 cores + HT and has a turbo frequency of 4.7 GHz, and it fits in the same power envelope as the 6700K and 7700K. So I'd go with that and a matching ASUS board. As Haze said, their lower-end stuff is just as solid as the high-buck boards if it has the I/O you need and you don't care about overclocking. I usually end up buying some features I don't need in order to get the I/O I do need.
The 750Ti video card is fine if you won't use shader effects. If we ever do run e.g. the Voodoo emulation on the GPU as a shader (Ted has a working proof of concept written for D3D11) that will almost certainly need a beefier card.
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Re: Recommendations for (close to) stock systems?
[Re: AaronGiles]
#370264 - 10/11/17 06:08 PM
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> So my desktop system is now over 7 years old and I figure it might be time to invest
> in something that can do better on the more heavy-duty games in MAME.
>
Definitely Intel kaby lake or greater, they have better speed, memory performance, and less power usage (==quieter).
Definitely I7 (>= 4cores) for compiling speed.
I think the current performance sweet spot is the i7-7700k which unfortunately is not part of any Dell system builds that I could see. There is also the new coffee lake i7-8700k that has 6 cores available and the X-series if you really want a lot of cores (up to 18).
For MB: Any compatible ASUS board that has an Intel NIC on it, I have had several issues in the past with Realtek NICs so I avoid them whenever possible.
For Disk: Make sure you get a NVMe (PCIe) drive. Stick with Intel or Samsung.
For Graphics: Any midrange NVidia based card. You might want to up your spending here if you are think about getting 4k montiors anytime in future. There may also be some better photoshop acceleration here as well.
Edited by tedgreen (10/11/17 06:21 PM)
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Re: Recommendations for (close to) stock systems?
[Re: R. Belmont]
#370265 - 10/11/17 06:28 PM
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Thanks for all the pointers.
Yes, I upgraded my GPU when I got my 4k monitor a few years ago, so it's not too out of date, but acknowledged that I may eventually want to upgrade.
There are an insane number of almost-identically-spec'ed Asus motherboards (I see 8 different ones on pcpartpicker with just the Z370 chipset and their comparison shows them all to be identical). Are there better ways to tell the difference?
And then what kind of cooling is recommended?
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Re: Recommendations for (close to) stock systems?
[Re: AaronGiles]
#370266 - 10/11/17 06:55 PM
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Go to https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/Intel-platform-Products/
and select the z370 filter. Then you can do a comparison between the boards.
My current setup is a Prime Z270-A with a Cooler Master Evo 212 cooler, I haven't had any issues with it.
I would go with the Prime Z370-A unless you require built-in wifi/bluetooth and the Evo 212 cooler.
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Re: Recommendations for (close to) stock systems?
[Re: krick]
#370268 - 10/11/17 07:49 PM
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> If you're budget conscious, you can't go wrong with as Intel Core i3-7350K Kaby Lake
> Dual-Core 4.2 GHz for around $150.
>
> The stock clock is 4.2GHz, which is good for MAME.
> It only has dual cores, but it has hyperthreading.
>
> If you want more cores, you can always go with one of the i5/i7 CPUs.
>
> For motherboards, get something from ASUS.
>
> Here's a decent budget barebones (motherboard, cpu, cooler, memory, case, psu)
> system...
>
> PCPartPicker part list: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/vkgx8K
> Price breakdown by merchant: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/vkgx8K/by_merchant/
>
> CPU: Intel - Core i3-7350K 4.2GHz Dual-Core Processor ($140.99 @ Newegg Marketplace)
> CPU Cooler: Cooler Master - Hyper 212 EVO 82.9 CFM Sleeve Bearing CPU Cooler ($19.99
> @ Newegg)
> Motherboard: Asus - H110M-E/M.2 Micro ATX LGA1151 Motherboard ($59.89 @ OutletPC)
> Memory: G.Skill - Ripjaws V Series 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR4-2133 Memory ($145.98 @
> OutletPC)
> Case: Silverstone - TJ08B-E MicroATX Mini Tower Case ($98.99 @ SuperBiiz)
> Power Supply: SeaSonic - 520W 80+ Bronze Certified Fully-Modular ATX Power Supply
> ($51.99 @ SuperBiiz)
> Total: $517.83
> Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
> Generated by PCPartPicker 2017-10-11 09:58 EDT-0400
As Aaron is likely to be doing tasks that make use of more than 2 cores (such as compiling) then the dual core i3 *really* isn't going to cut it, you're literally doubling the time it takes to perform such tasks with that option. There are even MAME drivers that make good use of more than 2 cores so it's not really a good option, especially not if you want something reasonably futureproof.
Trying to be cheap when it comes to the processor is the biggest mistake you can make.
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Re: Recommendations for (close to) stock systems?
[Re: AaronGiles]
#370269 - 10/11/17 08:09 PM
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> There are an insane number of almost-identically-spec'ed Asus motherboards (I see 8
> different ones on pcpartpicker with just the Z370 chipset and their comparison shows
> them all to be identical). Are there better ways to tell the difference?
I usually use Newegg for comparing motherboard features. While not perfect, they're a LOT more complete than PC Part Picker. Note that Newegg sometimes lists microATX motherboards under uATX for some reason.
I'm a BIG fan of microATX motherboards. There's almost no good reason to get a full-sized ATX motherboard anymore. With a microATX board, you can get a compact mini-tower case and not have the monolith from 2001 sitting next to your desk.
> And then what kind of cooling is recommended?
I still don't trust water cooling.
If you're not overclocking, I'd just go with a standard tower cooler from Cooler Master. Their Hyper 212 EVO is very popular and under $20 from Newegg after the $10 rebate.
If you want to overclock, this is probably the mother of all air coolers...
The Noctua NH-D15...
https://pcpartpicker.com/product/4vzv6h/noctua-cpu-cooler-nhd15
Here's the motherboard compatibility list for this cooler because depending on the board design, it can block the PCI-E slot closest to the CPU...
http://noctua.at/en/products/cpu-cooler-retail/nh-d15/comp
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GroovyMAME support forum on BYOAC
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Re: Recommendations for (close to) stock systems?
[Re: tedgreen]
#370270 - 10/11/17 08:18 PM
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> I would go with the Prime Z370-A unless you require built-in wifi/bluetooth and the
> Evo 212 cooler.
Thanks that looks reasonable, thanks.
How about RAM speeds? I see the motherboards go up to DDR4/4000. IIRC, CAS is important, and looks like CAS 15 is where that tops out. I read somewhere that if you're not a tweaker buying faster RAM doesn't really get you much. I see Crucial (my past vendor of choice) has 2133 and 3000 at CAS 15. Worth it to go to 3000?
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Re: Recommendations for (close to) stock systems?
[Re: AaronGiles]
#370277 - 10/11/17 11:39 PM
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> How about RAM speeds?
I'd just get whatever memory the CPU you choose is rated at. The performance difference from running overclocked memory is negligible.
For example, the i7-8700K supports DDR4-2666 according to the Intel product specs...
https://ark.intel.com/products/126684/Intel-Core-i7-8700K-Processor-12M-Cache-up-to-4_70-GHz
Also, as for brands, Corsair and "G.Skill" are the most popular. I'm a big fan of "G.Skill". Their name is stupid, but I've never had a problem with their memory in multiple PC builds.
For CAS latency, lower is better. But honestly, you probably won't be able to observe any difference except in synthetic memory benchmarks designed to test that sort of thing.
Also, the way that they make higher speed memory modules is by running them with an increased CAS latency value. Notice that all the crazy expensive DDR4 4600 memory is CAS 19.
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GroovyMAME support forum on BYOAC
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Re: Recommendations for (close to) stock systems?
[Re: AaronGiles]
#370278 - 10/11/17 11:42 PM
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> How about RAM speeds? I see the motherboards go up to DDR4/4000. IIRC, CAS is
> important, and looks like CAS 15 is where that tops out. I read somewhere that if
> you're not a tweaker buying faster RAM doesn't really get you much. I see Crucial (my
> past vendor of choice) has 2133 and 3000 at CAS 15. Worth it to go to 3000?
I read the same things about ram speed. However I think you might acutally see some difference going from 2133 to 3000 and price difference seems negligible (~$30 for 2x8G).
At the very least I would go with stock speed (2666).
Edited by tedgreen (10/11/17 11:51 PM)
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: Recommendations for (close to) stock systems?
[Re: Haze]
#370299 - 10/12/17 05:00 PM
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> As Aaron is likely to be doing tasks that make use of more than 2 cores (such as
> compiling) then the dual core i3 *really* isn't going to cut it, you're literally
> doubling the time it takes to perform such tasks with that option. There are even
> MAME drivers that make good use of more than 2 cores so it's not really a good
> option, especially not if you want something reasonably futureproof.
The good news is that the Coffee Lake i3s have 4 cores (the i5 and i7 have 6), so you can get a true quad-core Intel CPU for under $130 now.
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Re: Recommendations for (close to) stock systems?
[Re: AaronGiles]
#370336 - 10/15/17 10:12 AM
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Re: Recommendations for (close to) stock systems?
[Re: AaronGiles]
#370357 - 10/16/17 03:05 PM
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Beware that Kaby Lake and Coffee Lake CPUs (and the beloning chipsets 270 / 370) are pin-compatible but they don't work when you mix them (Coffee Lake on 270 and Kaby on 370 do not work).
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Re: Recommendations for (close to) stock systems?
[Re: AaronGiles]
#370871 - 11/08/17 09:46 PM
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So...what did you get in the end?
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Re: Recommendations for (close to) stock systems?
[Re: Roman]
#370873 - 11/09/17 12:30 AM
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Ended up going with the Alienware Aurora because time is money and I don't have enough time or patience to research/sort out individual parts to assemble.
I'm still fairly cheap, so I started with the lowest end config, then picked the highest end CPU option (OC'ed 8700k) and ditched the ridiculously overpowered graphics card in favor of reusing my existing (and good enough) GTX 750Ti. Bought my own M.2 SSD to save a little more.
Haven't had time to formally benchmark and try out the OC options, but some initial runs show that the system as configured runs on par with the top-end line on the latest MAME Benchmark sites (krick's OC'ed i7-6700K @ 4.5GHz).
Final cost is on par with my previous (7 year old) desktop system (~$1400 before the SSD upgrade). I plan to update with some bench numbers later once my schedule allows.
Edited by AaronGiles (11/09/17 12:30 AM)
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