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All Sega Model 2 chips have been decapped and identified
#371823 - 12/12/17 03:44 PM
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| Nomax |
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Ryo Hazuki
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Reged: 11/19/03
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Posts: 496
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Loc: Belgium
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Re: All Sega Model 2 chips have been decapped and identified
[Re: jasd]
#371829 - 12/12/17 10:51 PM
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Re: All Sega Model 2 chips have been decapped and identified
[Re: jasd]
#371837 - 12/13/17 06:44 AM
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I looking for a moment when I will be able to highly valuable play my favourite Model 1/2 games!
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Re: All Sega Model 2 chips have been decapped and identified
[Re: jasd]
#371844 - 12/13/17 01:33 PM
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Does this mean Model 2 games will become more playable ?
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Re: All Sega Model 2 chips have been decapped and identified
[Re: agard]
#371846 - 12/13/17 02:32 PM
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> Does this mean Model 2 games will become more playable ?
no
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Re: All Sega Model 2 chips have been decapped and identified
[Re: MooglyGuy]
#371847 - 12/13/17 05:58 PM
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Well a good straight to the point NO there.
What needs to be done now that they are de-capped ?
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Re: All Sega Model 2 chips have been decapped and identified
[Re: agard]
#371848 - 12/13/17 06:20 PM
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> Well a good straight to the point NO there.
>
> What needs to be done now that they are de-capped ?
Update the CPU core(s) so that they're actually capable of running the code for a start. The new dumps show that a lot of existing assumptions were wrong.
HLE is easier than LLE in cases like this, and as ElSemi's Model 2 emulator shows, the HLE of these chips on Model 2 is both mature and functional; actually transitioning it all to LLE will likely result in slower performance, and until all issues have been squashed, more bugs, so no, it's not going to immediately improve the Model 2 emulation in MAME.
Unfortunately the cases where we would see most benefit, Model 1, specifically Virtual Fighter and Star Wars, I don't believe have been decapped yet (as the chips are rather rare) Only Virtua Racing where we were already able to run the game using code taken from a Model 2 game instead. Even hooking up the real code to Virtua Racing has proven to be tricky tho.
I believe Caps0ff would happily do the decaps of the Virtua Fighter and Star Wars chips if they were sent, as they've got a proven method to handle these chips, but they seem to be becoming very rare these days (versus 5-10 years ago) and even just communicating to people that they need to be from Star Wars and Virtua Fighter is becoming difficult as people seem to be forgetting that the various Model 1 games used different boards with different internal code, so just picking up random scrap Model 1 PCBs isn't going to cut it.
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Re: All Sega Model 2 chips have been decapped and identified
[Re: Haze]
#371851 - 12/13/17 07:52 PM
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In addition, it's important to be clear that these ULA/gate-array chips that were decapped are basically not at all useful for emulation. The only thing that we can do with the information that those four chips are gate arrays is know that there's nothing further to be done with them.
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Re: All Sega Model 2 chips have been decapped and identified
[Re: Haze]
#371852 - 12/13/17 08:42 PM
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Virtua Fighter doesn't seem to be too hard to find. There's one for sale for $240 we can pickup if someone paypals me the money. I can remove the chips.
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Re: All Sega Model 2 chips have been decapped and identified
[Re: Smitdogg]
#371853 - 12/13/17 08:51 PM
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> Virtua Fighter doesn't seem to be too hard to find. There's one for sale for $240 we
> can pickup if someone paypals me the money. I can remove the chips.
Check the part numbers against what's been decapped first at least in case I'm wrong.
according to the source however
COPRO - Fujitsu MB86233 Coprocessor (QFP160), differs depending on game:
315-5573 - Virtua Racing, Virtua Formula (original for above board part number)
315-5711 - Wing War, Star Wars Arcade, Netmerc
315-5724 - Virtua Fighter
and only 315-5573 was done.
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Re: All Sega Model 2 chips have been decapped and identified
[Re: Haze]
#371854 - 12/13/17 08:53 PM
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The chip parts aren't readable so if that's required, good luck
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Re: All Sega Model 2 chips have been decapped and identified
[Re: Smitdogg]
#371855 - 12/13/17 08:55 PM
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> The chip parts aren't readable so if that's required, good luck
well if it's definitely a VF then it should have a needed co-processor on it
COPRO - Fujitsu MB86233 Coprocessor (QFP160), differs depending on game:
315-5573 - Virtua Racing, Virtua Formula (original for above board part number)
315-5711 - Wing War, Star Wars Arcade, Netmerc
315-5724 - Virtua Fighter
Caps0ff only list 315-5573 as being done. Maybe Wing War will be easier to source than SWA too?
Either way, decapping those will be essential in the long-run to get perfect Model 1 emulation.
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Re: All Sega Model 2 chips have been decapped and identified
[Re: Haze]
#371856 - 12/13/17 08:58 PM
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I can't read the chips but if someone wants to pay the 240 we can get it (Virtua Fighter). Wing War in the past has been a thousand times easier to find than Star Wars. It also would be a thousand times easier to talk an owner into sacrificing. Good luck on that with anything called Star Wars.
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Re: All Sega Model 2 chips have been decapped and identified
[Re: Smitdogg]
#371858 - 12/13/17 09:02 PM
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> I can't read the chips but if someone wants to pay the 240 we can get it (Virtua
> Fighter). Wing War in the past has been a thousand times easier to find than Star
> Wars. It also would be a thousand times easier to talk an owner into sacrificing.
> Good luck on that with anything called Star Wars.
let me poke the Caps0ff guys first just to make sure.
I can't imagine it will be too difficult to raise money for those ones, as they're well known classic games and if they're ever going to be emulated perfectly we will need those decaps.
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Re: All Sega Model 2 chips have been decapped and identified
[Re: Haze]
#371859 - 12/13/17 09:18 PM
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Thanks Haze for an explanation into what needs to be done. Mame will get there in the end.
As we are on sega chips Wonder Boy to me seems to not sync right when playing the game so is this 1 of the things that decapping the Virtual Fighter & Star Wars would help or is it just my laptop not fast enough or have i got the settings wrong in Mame ? My laptop though is an intel i5 with 6gb of ram so should be fast enough.
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Re: All Sega Model 2 chips have been decapped and identified
[Re: agard]
#371860 - 12/13/17 09:38 PM
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> Thanks Haze for an explanation into what needs to be done. Mame will get there in the
> end.
>
> As we are on sega chips Wonder Boy to me seems to not sync right when playing the
> game so is this 1 of the things that decapping the Virtual Fighter & Star Wars would
> help or is it just my laptop not fast enough or have i got the settings wrong in Mame
> ? My laptop though is an intel i5 with 6gb of ram so should be fast enough.
Virtua Fighter and Star Wars have literally nothing in common with Wonder Boy...
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Re: All Sega Model 2 chips have been decapped and identified
[Re: jasd]
#371861 - 12/14/17 12:41 AM
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Is this true for all variants of Model2? (Model2A, Model2B and Model2C?).
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Re: All Sega Model 2 chips have been decapped and identified
[Re: Haze]
#371887 - 12/14/17 02:47 PM
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> Virtua Fighter and Star Wars have literally nothing in common with Wonder Boy...
Seriously, what kind of derailed train of thought would lead someone to think that Wonder Boy is in any way related? 
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Re: All Sega Model 2 chips have been decapped and identified
[Re: Haze]
#371888 - 12/14/17 03:35 PM
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> let me poke the Caps0ff guys first just to make sure.
Yeah, ensure that first. Guru was ready to send a VF one when the decaps happened, maybe he still is. But the Caps0ff guys were, at least at the time, very sanely trying to avoid scope creep.
OG.
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Re: All Sega Model 2 chips have been decapped and identified
[Re: JustNiz]
#371889 - 12/14/17 03:38 PM
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> Is this true for all variants of Model2? (Model2A, Model2B and Model2C?).
Only 2 and 2A use the fujitsu TGP. 2B uses sharcs and 2C uses TGPx4, and in both cases the code is uploaded by the main program, there's no firmware needing to be extracted.
OG.
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Re: All Sega Model 2 chips have been decapped and identified
[Re: Olivier Galibert]
#371890 - 12/14/17 03:57 PM
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> > let me poke the Caps0ff guys first just to make sure.
>
> Yeah, ensure that first. Guru was ready to send a VF one when the decaps happened,
> maybe he still is. But the Caps0ff guys were, at least at the time, very sanely
> trying to avoid scope creep.
>
> OG.
I asked, and the guy doing the work is happy to image the VF and WW/SWA chips if they show up. How they get to him will need to be worked out in a similar way to how getting him the 8751s from F1-Dream and Birdie Try were (talk to Caius if needed as he likely knows the process now) but he is happy to process said TGPs.
To quote (re TGPs)
"if you make the chips show up, I'll image them like I did the others"
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Reged: 09/21/03
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Posts: 9711
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Loc: ECV-197 The Orville
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Re: All Sega Model 2 chips have been decapped and identified
[Re: MooglyGuy]
#371891 - 12/14/17 06:27 PM
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> The only thing that we can do
> with the information that those four chips are gate arrays is know that there's
> nothing further to be done with them.
We *could* if necessary extract them to a schematic to get all the details right if they're involved in e.g. rendering. But hopefully that's not necessary.
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Re: All Sega Model 2 chips have been decapped and identified
[Re: Olivier Galibert]
#371893 - 12/14/17 07:57 PM
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Can you find out the current situation with that so we don't spend money unnecessarily? If he's sending that then I can look for a Wing War instead.
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Re: All Sega Model 2 chips have been decapped and identified
[Re: Smitdogg]
#371895 - 12/14/17 08:53 PM
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Re: All Sega Model 2 chips have been decapped and identified
[Re: Diet Go Go Fan]
#371896 - 12/14/17 09:45 PM
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Looks like guesswork based on there being region versions for Wing War then assuming they did that with every game. Unless there's evidence of it existing then I'm calling that butt talk, or talking out of one's ass. You can change the region in service mode. Same with for example Lost World, nobody to my knowledge has ever seen different labeled roms on a rom board, you just change the region in service mode.
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Re: All Sega Model 2 chips have been decapped and identified
[Re: MooglyGuy]
#371981 - 12/17/17 04:57 AM
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I was thinking that the sega chips that capsOff had just decapped was sort of linked in a way as Wonder Boy has got in the description 315-5177. In the description of the topic it says all Model 2 chips have been decapped & Wonder Boy being Sega & in my opinion Wonder Boy emulation isn't perfect I thought that it had something to do with it.
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Re: All Sega Model 2 chips have been decapped and identified
[Re: agard]
#371995 - 12/17/17 10:57 PM
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Does decapping the chips destroy them or the PCB?
Either way, I would be interested in contributing to the cause. I’d be willing to donate in order to obtain a Star Wars or Virtual Racing board in hopes they would eventually be emulated in MAME.
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Re: All Sega Model 2 chips have been decapped and identified
[Re: Jason Thorpe]
#371996 - 12/17/17 11:07 PM
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> Does decapping the chips destroy them or the PCB?
>
> Either way, I would be interested in contributing to the cause. I’d be willing to
> donate in order to obtain a Star Wars or Virtual Racing board in hopes they would
> eventually be emulated in MAME.
Yes, it's a destructive process, the chips really aren't likely to work afterwards. Until somebody works out how to make a replacement chip (which with non-user programmable parts like this isn't a simple option) then the actual PCB will be useless without said chip.
Of course for anybody to even start to theorize how to build some replacement chip that provides the same functionality we need dumps.
In a lot of other cases where you can just buy blank programmable parts the decapping has been very useful for repairing PCBs already tho.
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