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Decap Donations
#261432 - 08/04/11 05:42 PM
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The best bang for the buck with decap donations seems to be donating around the time the doc is looking into stuff for us, striking while the iron is hot. The iron is now hot. He is currently working on some N64 chips and in discussions about doing/finishing some MAME work for us. I have told people in the past to hold off on donations until the right moment. Now is the right moment. You can donate on his page:
http://decap.mameworld.info/
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Re: Decap Donations
[Re: Smitdogg]
#261459 - 08/04/11 11:15 PM
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Is it possible to know what will be his next MAME related project?
Maybe it well help attract more donations if we knew what was likely to be decapped?
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I don't know what all he will try so probably not unless LN gets some inside info or something. People are welcome to try and request a certain chip when you send in a (large) donation but I don't know what is going to happen.
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Re: Decap Donations
[Re: Smitdogg]
#261461 - 08/04/11 11:33 PM
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My donations are paltry at best, so I shan't dictate 
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Re: Decap Donations
[Re: Smitdogg]
#261491 - 08/05/11 12:00 PM
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Small amount sent. 
May I ask what the current status is of the DSP16A QSound chip previously decapped?
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| TheGuru |
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> Is it possible to know what will be his next MAME related project?
>
> Maybe it well help attract more donations if we knew what was likely to be decapped?
The deal with the Dr is quite loose. He pretty much does whatever he wants or whatever is convenient at that time.
If you want to donate the standard daily fee for general security work ($2500 PER DAY) you can ask for whatever you want and you'll probably get it. Otherwise you might get something, maybe, one day, possibly and sometime before you die if you're lucky.
If you do some research you'll see that the various companies fees for decapping/de-protecting and extracting data are quite high. For example processing 20 custom chips and/or microcontrollers can easily run to $80000 or more so the deal we are getting is very generous and we should be patient. I've said this almost word for word at least 10 times....
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Re: Decap Donations
[Re: Bernoulli]
#261519 - 08/05/11 05:00 PM
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I don't remember the current status. I'll find out.
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| drewcifer |
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One bad Mutha-(shut yo' mouth!)
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Re: Decap Donations
[Re: Bernoulli]
#261527 - 08/05/11 07:29 PM
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> Small amount sent.
> May I ask what the current status is of the DSP16A QSound chip previously decapped?
Thanks for the donation, and yeah, it's totally alright to ask about the DSP16A. It hasn't gone anywhere, and that's mostly my fault.
My time for MAME comes in spurts, and when the QSound chip was first decapped, I had some time to organize. s_bastian, as always, did a great job of setting up the decapping page, and I quickly collected and "bug-fixed" the results. I spent 2 evenings trying to decode the bits into bytes with no luck. Then I ran completely out of spare time.
I uploaded the interesting bits to the proper places and sent a mail to the dev list saying they were there, but it seems there hasn't been much interest in picking up where I left off. When I have time, I will likely look at it again, but if someone on MAMEWorld is interested in their first emulator project, please feel free to PM me and I'll hook you up with the goods.
Andrew
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Re: Decap Donations
[Re: Smitdogg]
#261538 - 08/05/11 10:19 PM
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> He is currently working on some N64 chips and in discussions about
> doing/finishing some MAME work for us.
the playstation cd controller & cpu could do with decapping. the gpu & spu too, although there is less evidence that there are roms that need dumping in the latter.
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| austere |
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Freelance developer
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Re: Decap Donations
[Re: Smitdogg]
#261555 - 08/06/11 12:08 AM
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I donated a bit of money. It's about time we looked at those Seibu chips.
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Re: Decap Donations
[Re: austere]
#261556 - 08/06/11 12:19 AM
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> I donated a bit of money. It's about time we looked at those Seibu chips.
I donated as well! my avatar already tells...
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Re: Decap Donations
[Re: edcosta]
#261557 - 08/06/11 12:23 AM
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> > I donated a bit of money. It's about time we looked at those Seibu chips.
>
> I donated as well! my avatar already tells...
Yup get the raiden II chips decapped....
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Re: Decap Donations
[Re: hammad]
#261561 - 08/06/11 01:42 AM
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> > > I donated a bit of money. It's about time we looked at those Seibu chips.
> >
> > I donated as well! my avatar already tells...
>
> Yup get the raiden II chips decapped....
The raiden II chips are mostly custom toshiba mask gate arrays (based on their part numbers); I don't envy the job of untanging them and figuring out what they do.
LN
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| austere |
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> > > > I donated a bit of money. It's about time we looked at those Seibu chips.
> > >
> > > I donated as well! my avatar already tells...
> >
> > Yup get the raiden II chips decapped....
>
> The raiden II chips are mostly custom toshiba mask gate arrays (based on their part
> numbers); I don't envy the job of untanging them and figuring out what they do.
>
> LN
Yeah that's what we assume ... it won't be pretty, I just hope it's 2 metal layers at most. De-layering and staining might be the best solution to be honest. Trouble is, you'd need the process parameters to make way through the material without taking a hundred years and several "samples".
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Re: Decap Donations
[Re: austere]
#261603 - 08/06/11 10:03 AM
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I seriously doubt that decapping the Raiden II chips is going to help with emulation of that game.
As others have said, there are no roms on those chips, hence nothing to obtain by decapping.
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| TheGuru |
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Re: Decap Donations
[Re: jonwil]
#261604 - 08/06/11 10:08 AM
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> I seriously doubt that decapping the Raiden II chips is going to help with emulation
> of that game.
>
> As others have said, there are no roms on those chips, hence nothing to obtain by
> decapping.
and you know this and have evidence how?
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> My donations are paltry at best, so I shan't dictate
Donating chickens really wont help! 
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Cheers,
Terra Cresta
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Re: Decap Donations
[Re: Terra Cresta]
#261611 - 08/06/11 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Donating chickens really wont help!
What a fowl pun that is! 
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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> The raiden II chips are mostly custom toshiba mask gate arrays (based on their part
> numbers); I don't envy the job of untanging them and figuring out what they do.
I have to agree with H*z* here - decapping the Raiden II chips is arguably the stupidest idea this side of a flying machine filled with hydrogen. Applied brainpower is going to get those games farther, not tracing out gates under a microscope.
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: Decap Donations
[Re: TheGuru]
#261630 - 08/06/11 06:05 PM
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> and you know this and have evidence how?
There's not. It's a sort of common function library baked into a gate array. Decapping them would be a waste of money.
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> Donating chickens really wont help!
>
>
> What a fowl pun that is!
I was only yolking, people keeping egging me on though.
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Cheers,
Terra Cresta
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Re: Decap Donations
[Re: Smitdogg]
#261640 - 08/06/11 07:50 PM
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I'm not donating anymore for decapping until we get a status update on QSound emulation. What's the point of decapping anything when it just goes into the abyss?
I don't care if progress is slow, and they can't figure it out, but would it be that hard to take 10 seconds and type out, "I haven't been able to figure it out yet?"
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Re: Decap Donations
[Re: crowlos]
#261642 - 08/06/11 07:56 PM
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Re: Decap Donations
[Re: Smitdogg]
#261645 - 08/06/11 09:00 PM
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Quote:
I was only yolking, people keeping egging me on though.
Well if we keep this up we'll both be told to cluck off.
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| TheGuru |
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Re: Decap Donations
[Re: R. Belmont]
#261665 - 08/07/11 03:50 AM
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> > and you know this and have evidence how?
>
> There's not. It's a sort of common function library baked into a gate array.
> Decapping them would be a waste of money.
well someone (not me) seemed to think it was worthwhile otherwise the chips would not have been donated and it would not be on the list.
If it doesn't need doing I can easily remove them from the list. Just confirm. 100% confirm.
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Re: Decap Donations
[Re: TheGuru]
#261680 - 08/07/11 01:09 PM
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> > > and you know this and have evidence how?
> >
> > There's not. It's a sort of common function library baked into a gate array.
> > Decapping them would be a waste of money.
>
> well someone (not me) seemed to think it was worthwhile otherwise the chips would not
> have been donated and it would not be on the list.
> If it doesn't need doing I can easily remove them from the list. Just confirm. 100%
> confirm.
Yes coz if it's a waste of money to decap the raiden II chips then instead of getting them decapped we can get other chips decapped in place of them.....
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| TheGuru |
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Re: Decap Donations
[Re: hammad]
#261682 - 08/07/11 02:02 PM
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> Yes coz if it's a waste of money to decap the raiden II chips then instead of getting
> them decapped we can get other chips decapped in place of them.....
erm, yes we do know that but THANKS for pointing it out
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Re: Decap Donations
[Re: TheGuru]
#261683 - 08/07/11 02:23 PM
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nah..
don't remove it from list
maybe in future some light appear and devs actually need full observation of these chips...
just put it at (very) low priority for your future plans
until something in future change priorities
p.s.
C chips are, IMHO, better goal for next/future decapped project plans... many good games are affected (unperfect gameplay... events, game logic..) and secret is burried in these nasty C chips
Edited by xw0lf (08/07/11 02:26 PM)
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| austere |
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Re: Decap Donations
[Re: R. Belmont]
#261685 - 08/07/11 07:28 PM
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Yeah, it might be retarded compared to using your brain and guessing (or in my case, getting a minute of free time to trojan the damn board), but don't you really wanna know what's in those chip? I know I'm morbidly curious, we're all sure it's a gate array from that toshiba datasheet but ... are we absolutely sure? What if there's something surprising waiting for us?
It's not hard if you delayer the chip btw: Stain, etch, stain, etch then extract rectangles (e.g. hough transform) after the micrograph, reverse engineer the standard cells and use some already written software (e.g. Mentor Graphics Calibre) to extract the RTL after converting the rectangles to GDSII. Not easy and you would need an SEM image of the surface to figure out the depth as well as good guesstimation to figure out what each layer is and how much to dilute the enchant for it. I don't know if Dr. Decap does this but even if he did, it'd be a job in the thousands of dollars range.
Anyway, I personally am not demanding anything just humbly stating my own preference. Dr. Decap can do whatever the heck he wants with the money I sent him, any chips in the pipeline is worth looking at.
Edited by austere (08/07/11 07:28 PM)
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Re: Decap Donations
[Re: austere]
#261686 - 08/07/11 07:51 PM
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> Yeah, it might be retarded compared to using your brain and guessing (or in my case,
> getting a minute of free time to trojan the damn board), but don't you really wanna
> know what's in those chip? I know I'm morbidly curious, we're all sure it's a gate
> array from that toshiba datasheet but ... are we absolutely sure? What if there's
> something surprising waiting for us?
>
> It's not hard if you delayer the chip btw: Stain, etch, stain, etch then extract
> rectangles (e.g. hough transform) after the micrograph, reverse engineer the standard
> cells and use some already written software (e.g. Mentor Graphics Calibre) to extract
> the RTL after converting the rectangles to GDSII. Not easy and you would need an SEM
> image of the surface to figure out the depth as well as good guesstimation to figure
> out what each layer is and how much to dilute the enchant for it. I don't know if Dr.
> Decap does this but even if he did, it'd be a job in the thousands of dollars range.
>
> Anyway, I personally am not demanding anything just humbly stating my own preference.
> Dr. Decap can do whatever the heck he wants with the money I sent him, any chips in
> the pipeline is worth looking at.
Yes No one can be 100% sure until they are decapped who knows there is something surprising in there for all of us and if we neglect it then we'll never come to know what's in those chips......as Mr. Belmont said that the seibu games require applied brainpower to get those games farther well one question Mr. Belmont there is no one who is ready to touch the seibu games because they have no time or so usually...there was progress made earlier this year by Kale in January but since then it's been almost 7 months and the progress has been halted so to make further progress in that what can we do ? at least by donating $$ we can get the chips decapped.....what other choice do we have to bring those games to a playable state..... can you shed some light on this ?
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Re: Decap Donations
[Re: Smitdogg]
#261698 - 08/07/11 11:32 PM
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Nobody wants to donate to people who drop off the face of the earth for months.
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Re: Decap Donations
[Re: crowlos]
#261699 - 08/07/11 11:55 PM
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That's why I've always said that timing matters for decap donations. You have to donate around the times he can give us to get bang for your buck. I even restated it in the first post of this thread.
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Re: Decap Donations
[Re: Smitdogg]
#261701 - 08/08/11 12:49 AM
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I totally understand that. I'm just saying that I don't think it's too much to ask for someone to take a few seconds just to say, "I won't be able to work on this for the foreseeable future." At least then we'd know.
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Re: Decap Donations
[Re: crowlos]
#261702 - 08/08/11 12:59 AM
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We don't even know what type of chip some of them are. A lot will fail or otherwise be a waste of time and some already have been. So I don't see how much that's going to help. He tells you he will look at something but still there's a 50% chance it won't do any good. Decapping is a huge risk as far as ending with something useful and even when we do, the resulting file doesn't even always get hooked up correctly. You have a better chance getting something useful out of dumping a rusty dead board that was cracked in half, set on fire and then thrown in a pool, and then pulled out and used as a raccoon urinal. Anyway, your added negativity isn't going to help anything. Just don't donate, you don't have to take a dump on the thread.
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Re: Decap Donations
[Re: Smitdogg]
#261713 - 08/08/11 03:31 AM
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I'm really looking for Konami Bubble System MCU emulation...
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| TheGuru |
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MAMEDev Dumper
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Re: Decap Donations
[Re: Javier Donoso]
#261741 - 08/08/11 09:16 AM
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> I'm really looking for Konami Bubble System MCU emulation...
that has absolutely nothing to do with decapping and is totally off topic. Plus I'm sure everybody here is sick of you whining about Bubble System emulation. I have a PCB here that I'm about to send to Charles so he can work on it. If I see another Bubble post from you I'll smash the PCB into 1000 pieces and there will likely never be any Bubble emulation. Please just shut up 
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Re: Decap Donations
[Re: TheGuru]
#261743 - 08/08/11 10:25 AM
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Quote:
If I see another Bubble post from you I'll smash the PCB into 1000 pieces and there will likely never be any Bubble emulation. Please just shut up
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Re: Decap Donations
[Re: TheGuru]
#261754 - 08/08/11 02:58 PM
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> well someone (not me) seemed to think it was worthwhile otherwise the chips would not
> have been donated and it would not be on the list.
> If it doesn't need doing I can easily remove them from the list. Just confirm. 100%
> confirm.
Well, now that we understand how it works better (not nearly well enough, but better), we're pretty sure it is a "simple" interpreter baked into a gate array. No mcu in practice, which sucks, it would have been way simpler...
OG.
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| TheGuru |
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> > well someone (not me) seemed to think it was worthwhile otherwise the chips would
> not
> > have been donated and it would not be on the list.
> > If it doesn't need doing I can easily remove them from the list. Just confirm. 100%
> > confirm.
>
> Well, now that we understand how it works better (not nearly well enough, but
> better), we're pretty sure it is a "simple" interpreter baked into a gate array. No
> mcu in practice, which sucks, it would have been way simpler...
>
> OG.
ok. I figured the larger one near the CPU (no Toshiba gate array numbers) was something more important but for now I'll mark them as 'not needed'
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Re: Decap Donations
[Re: DrZer0]
#261832 - 08/09/11 08:11 PM
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Perhaps Javier Donoso should send a rather large donation to Guru firstly as a gesture of goodwill, and secondly to cover shipping costs from Australia.
http://guru.mameworld.info/thanks.html
"The mainstay of management is behavioral therapy, focusing on specific deficits to address poor communication skills, obsessive or repetitive routines, and physical clumsiness.[9] Most children improve as they mature to adulthood, but social and communication difficulties may persist." -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome
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Re: Decap Donations
[Re: TheGuru]
#261905 - 08/10/11 06:29 PM
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> > > well someone (not me) seemed to think it was worthwhile otherwise the chips would
> > not
> > > have been donated and it would not be on the list.
> > > If it doesn't need doing I can easily remove them from the list. Just confirm.
> 100%
> > > confirm.
> >
> > Well, now that we understand how it works better (not nearly well enough, but
> > better), we're pretty sure it is a "simple" interpreter baked into a gate array. No
> > mcu in practice, which sucks, it would have been way simpler...
> >
> > OG.
>
> ok. I figured the larger one near the CPU (no Toshiba gate array numbers) was
> something more important but for now I'll mark them as 'not needed'
Hmm. I wasn't aware there was a non-gate-array like that near the cpu. perhaps that one does merit investigation.
LN
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"When life gives you zombies... *CHA-CHIK!* ...you make zombie-ade!"
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Re: Decap Donations
[Re: TheGuru]
#261910 - 08/10/11 07:32 PM
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> > > well someone (not me) seemed to think it was worthwhile otherwise the chips would
> > not
> > > have been donated and it would not be on the list.
> > > If it doesn't need doing I can easily remove them from the list. Just confirm.
> 100%
> > > confirm.
> >
> > Well, now that we understand how it works better (not nearly well enough, but
> > better), we're pretty sure it is a "simple" interpreter baked into a gate array. No
> > mcu in practice, which sucks, it would have been way simpler...
> >
> > OG.
>
> ok. I figured the larger one near the CPU (no Toshiba gate array numbers) was
> something more important but for now I'll mark them as 'not needed'
You mean the SEI1000 ?
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> > > > well someone (not me) seemed to think it was worthwhile otherwise the chips
> would
> > > not
> > > > have been donated and it would not be on the list.
> > > > If it doesn't need doing I can easily remove them from the list. Just confirm.
> > 100%
> > > > confirm.
> > >
> > > Well, now that we understand how it works better (not nearly well enough, but
> > > better), we're pretty sure it is a "simple" interpreter baked into a gate array.
> No
> > > mcu in practice, which sucks, it would have been way simpler...
> > >
> > > OG.
> >
> > ok. I figured the larger one near the CPU (no Toshiba gate array numbers) was
> > something more important but for now I'll mark them as 'not needed'
>
> Hmm. I wasn't aware there was a non-gate-array like that near the cpu. perhaps that
> one does merit investigation.
>
> LN
Sorry for self reply, but there is a low-cost way to decap the chips without necessarily being able to extract the data (i.e. from a very fried raiden II board) by incinerating the epoxy from the chips on a stove or with a blowtorch. This plus a hobby microscope could reveal if any of the chips are worthwhile for 'proper' decapping.
So... does anyone have a dead raiden 2 board they can part with?
LN
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"When life gives you zombies... *CHA-CHIK!* ...you make zombie-ade!"
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> So... does anyone have a dead raiden 2 board they can part with?
>
> LN
Maybe, I fixed and sold the dead one I had. It was a labor of love bringing that one back from the dead. (You should see the repair log entry for it! EEEK!)
If I hadn't gotten rid of it, I have a crusty, corroded one that should be in a 10 x 20 storage locker. I just don't remember 100% if I had tossed it in the pile for my electronics recycler or not. It's been since January since we moved and it's been too dang hot in Texas to go digging in non-climate controlled storage units.
RJ
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Re: Decap Donations
[Re: channelmaniac]
#263700 - 09/02/11 07:06 AM
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> > So... does anyone have a dead raiden 2 board they can part with?
> >
> > LN
>
> Maybe, I fixed and sold the dead one I had. It was a labor of love bringing that one
> back from the dead. (You should see the repair log entry for it! EEEK!)
>
> If I hadn't gotten rid of it, I have a crusty, corroded one that should be in a 10 x
> 20 storage locker. I just don't remember 100% if I had tossed it in the pile for my
> electronics recycler or not. It's been since January since we moved and it's been too
> dang hot in Texas to go digging in non-climate controlled storage units.
>
> RJ
Ah. once it cools down, let me know if you can find it. that would be perfect for taking chips from for decap.
LN
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"When life gives you zombies... *CHA-CHIK!* ...you make zombie-ade!"
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Re: Decap Donations
[Re: ]
#264943 - 09/19/11 04:54 PM
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> > He is currently working on some N64 chips and in discussions about
> > doing/finishing some MAME work for us.
>
> the playstation cd controller & cpu could do with decapping. the gpu & spu too,
> although there is less evidence that there are roms that need dumping in the latter.
What about the Sega Saturn CD Block? I've seen a lot of people complain about the black box nature of that thing. That and the Qsound chip are the most interesting ones in my opinion.
Partially decapped pictures of it were uploaded on the decapping blog, but no word on any progress ever since...
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Re: Decap Donations
[Re: Arieta]
#264984 - 09/20/11 08:27 AM
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> > > He is currently working on some N64 chips and in discussions about
> > > doing/finishing some MAME work for us.
> >
> > the playstation cd controller & cpu could do with decapping. the gpu & spu too,
> > although there is less evidence that there are roms that need dumping in the
> latter.
>
> What about the Sega Saturn CD Block? I've seen a lot of people complain about the
> black box nature of that thing. That and the Qsound chip are the most interesting
> ones in my opinion.
>
> Partially decapped pictures of it were uploaded on the decapping blog, but no word on
> any progress ever since...
because of politics power lead to condition,Simply say
there are no any dev have interested in decapping work... 
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