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Need help for contact, regarding new HLSL post.fx Shader
#330864 - 08/29/14 07:02 PM
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Hello Arcademics,
Maybe dumb question, but I need some help regarding contact MAME devs. I would like to point them to a new HLSL post.fx shader written by Jezze. It is a rework of the official MAME pendant, but it has more features, some of them unique with awesome results.
I allready checked: http://www.mamedev.org/devwiki/index.php?title=Submitting_Source_Code
but this looks way to complex for me to be done. I would rather send them just the post.fx filter, which would be much easier to do :P . It would be even better, to contact the person, that is responsible for the HLSL stuff. So I am hoping that someone here has some good info or contact links for this purpose.
I am in contact with Jezze and basically, we would like to implement an additional parameter in the HLSL settings, which of course, can only be done by the devs themselves.
So please, if someone can help me, that would be nice  .
Thx in advance
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Re: Need help for contact, regarding new HLSL post.fx Shader
[Re: uman]
#330865 - 08/29/14 07:22 PM
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Re: Need help for contact, regarding new HLSL post.fx Shader
[Re: lamprey]
#330866 - 08/29/14 07:34 PM Attachment: post.zip 3 KB (14 downloads)
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Yes it is different. The light reflection has no bending anymore (dither effect applied) and the color of it, is changed from white to a sublte yellow, making the reflection looking way more natural. And here lies the culprit or problem. The light reflection is bounded to the curvature parameter and Jezze would like to have a parameter, dedicated to the reflection, so that it is not more bounded with the curvature.
Beside this, I dont know what else is changed, he told me that he cleaned up the post.fx, whatever that means  .
I attached it, by this post.
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| B2K24 |
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MAME @ 15 kHz Sony Trinitron CRT user
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Re: Need help for contact, regarding new HLSL post.fx Shader
[Re: uman]
#330867 - 08/29/14 07:53 PM
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IS there a blog or forum thread with the creator discussing this release?
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Re: Need help for contact, regarding new HLSL post.fx Shader
[Re: B2K24]
#330871 - 08/29/14 08:48 PM
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There is only his own but old thread here: http://www.aep-emu.de/PNphpBB2-file-viewtopic-t-18991.html
I am in contact with him, because I plan to release a app with his shader included. I got the post.fx shader here, today from him. We are trying to get it better, but it is off course his work, i am not that deep into creating shaders, but could give him a view suggestions, what to make better resulting in this new version.
Why is that important? I would rather stay ontopic, because i want to help him, to implement his great shader into official MAME builds and I need some adresses / contacts for that.
Please help me doing this.
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Re: Need help for contact, regarding new HLSL post.fx Shader
[Re: uman]
#330874 - 08/29/14 09:35 PM
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To be honest, I think his shader needs much more attention. It is a "low-cost-resource" shader, working with many onboard graphics, with amazing results. I have seen many good shaders, but none of them work with official MAME (i.e. Retroarch, Sweet FX etc.), also they are heavy loading and need a dedicated graficscard to work fluently.
His Shader has many stuff, that official post.fx doesnt have: Like automagically applied shadowmasks without moire effects or bending. A Vignette and a Lightreflection. Three different perfectly aligned shadowmasks to choose from. All this stuff is unique and better than the official version. I am really surprised, that this shader is not so known by the many MAME users outthere. I would like to change that.
People need to realize, that his shader is not just a HLSL setting preset, it is a rewritten shader for MAME and I am not aware of any other shaders where this would apply.
So why not bringing his shader into the official build, so everyone could benefit from it?
Also this approach will motivate Jezze for maybe more shaders. IMHO he deserves some reward, as there are not many people who can create this kind of stuff.
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edited, and what should've been in the original post...
[Re: uman]
#330879 - 08/29/14 10:31 PM
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Hello Arcademics,
I would like to point them to a new HLSL post.fx shader written by Jezze. It is a rework of the official MAME pendant, but it has more features, some of them unique with awesome results.
I allready checked: http://www.mamedev.org/devwiki/index.php?title=Submitting_Source_Code
It is a "low-cost-resource" shader, working with many onboard graphics, with amazing results. His Shader has many stuff, that official post.fx doesnt have: Like automagically applied shadowmasks without moire effects or bending. A Vignette and a Lightreflection. Three different perfectly aligned shadowmasks to choose from. This shader is not just a HLSL setting preset, it is a rewritten shader for MAME and I am not aware of any other shaders where this would apply.
Thx in advance
And then wait at least three days to hear from someone on the team.
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Re: Need help for contact, regarding new HLSL post.fx Shader
[Re: uman]
#330881 - 08/29/14 10:47 PM
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> People need to realize, that his shader is not just a HLSL setting preset, it is a
> rewritten shader for MAME and I am not aware of any other shaders where this would
> apply.
You need to realize: the existing MAME shader is based on pure mathematics including the electrmagnetic and physical properties of a CRT, and just fucking with it to "look good" is going to be a non-starter as far as MAMEdev is concerned.
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Re: Need help for contact, regarding new HLSL post.fx Shader
[Re: uman]
#330884 - 08/29/14 10:55 PM
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Uman, thanks for posting the update.
Not to go off topic, but I was looking for version of the post.fx file that has rounded corners that works with earlier versions of mame, ideally 145, but 145 to 0.148u5 would work. I thought that Jezze had a version that worked with older version, before he updated it. Since you are in contact with him, I thought I'd ask if you can get an older version or if anyone else happens to have it, if they could post it.
I started a tread on the subject at ArcadeControls:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,141065.0.html
Just throwing it out here incase anyone happens to have that post.fx around.
Cheers!
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Re: Need help for contact, regarding new HLSL post.fx Shader
[Re: lamprey]
#330892 - 08/29/14 11:58 PM
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@Traso: I dont understand your post  .
You basically quoted my post and i dont understand what you mean by it.
@lamprey: I can try it, but I cant promise anything. If he dont has some kind of a backup of old versions, i doubt he will do it again, as it is a lot of work, because colors where treated differently prior 0.148.
@R. Belmont: Hope you know what you are talking of. I can assure you, that the old code is still there doing his functions as usual. Jezze improved it and just added some new and useful stuff regarding the post.fx
Like the handling of the shadowmasks i.e. , normally you would need to do calculations for X and Y to properly apply a shadowmask based on the resolutions of each fucking game. Which of course nobody does (and are really aware of), when people post their "amateur" HLSL settings, resulting in poor behaviour i.e. moire and other ugly artefacts, when you try to apply these settings to different games.
He added code, that will calculate this automatically for the enduser and he has three different shadowmasks that will perfectly align, no matter what game you throw at it.
What do you think has Jezze done with the post.fx? Do you think that his code is not based on mathematics? Do you think his code is some hasty typed bullshit to "look good" or what?
Judging by your comment, I am sure you never tried it. I can understand this, because his thread is in german and you dont have a fucking clue what he is talking about there. Let me say to you, that he had serious plans in mind while writing this post.fx and I never saw anywhere on this MAME planet, a better and more comprehensive tutorial what HLSL really does... period.
We are not talking here about the HLSL shader as a whole, we are talking about a portion of it, that does post.fx on the final image. This portion for sure has absolutely nothing to do with your so called "electromagnetic and physical properties" neither in the original post.fx nor in Jezze´s one. The post.fx section handles the scanlines and the shadowmasks, nothing more.
Last but not least, its better the MAME devs are judging if his post.fx is worth something or not. So either help me to somehow get in contact with them or let it be. thank you.
Edited by uman (08/30/14 12:11 AM)
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Re: Need help for contact, regarding new HLSL post.fx Shader
[Re: uman]
#330896 - 08/30/14 12:48 AM
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> @Traso: I dont understand your post .
> You basically quoted my post and i dont understand what you mean by it.
>
> @lamprey: I can try it, but I cant promise anything. If he dont has some kind of a
> backup of old versions, i doubt he will do it again, as it is a lot of work, because
> colors where treated differently prior 0.148.
>
> @R. Belmont: Hope you know what you are talking of. I can assure you, that the old
> code is still there doing his functions as usual. Jezze improved it and just added
> some new and useful stuff regarding the post.fx
> Like the handling of the shadowmasks i.e. , normally you would need to do
> calculations for X and Y to properly apply a shadowmask based on the resolutions of
> each fucking game. Which of course nobody does (and are really aware of), when people
> post their "amateur" HLSL settings, resulting in poor behaviour i.e. moire and other
> ugly artefacts, when you try to apply these settings to different games.
>
> He added code, that will calculate this automatically for the enduser and he has
> three different shadowmasks that will perfectly align, no matter what game you throw
> at it.
>
> What do you think has Jezze done with the post.fx? Do you think that his code is not
> based on mathematics? Do you think his code is some hasty typed bullshit to "look
> good" or what?
>
> Judging by your comment, I am sure you never tried it. I can understand this, because
> his thread is in german and you dont have a fucking clue what he is talking about
> there. Let me say to you, that he had serious plans in mind while writing this
> post.fx and I never saw anywhere on this MAME planet, a better and more comprehensive
> tutorial what HLSL really does... period.
> We are not talking here about the HLSL shader as a whole, we are talking about a
> portion of it, that does post.fx on the final image. This portion for sure has
> absolutely nothing to do with your so called "electromagnetic and physical
> properties" neither in the original post.fx nor in Jezze´s one. The post.fx section
> handles the scanlines and the shadowmasks, nothing more.
>
> Last but not least, its better the MAME devs are judging if his post.fx is worth
> something or not. So either help me to somehow get in contact with them or let it be.
> thank you.
R.Belmont is a MAME dev. And he's friendlier than the guy that wrote the HLSL system (no offense to MooglyGuy who is universally(?) loved for his message board responses).
Some of the stuff in that post.fx is stuff that some people won't consider "crt simulation". Like the reflection and vignetting.
The most useful thing is the shadowmask alignment. But the author of the HLSL has expressed a preference for NOT doing that because the number of aperture stripes is an inherent part of a particular CRT and should not depend on the output resolution.
I'm no MAME dev, so maybe you don't care what I have to say, but there are actual reasons this stuff might not make it in.
And it's not like people don't know what HLSL looks like in it's current state. One the front page of the board you can find posts from MooglyGuy where he mentions some of what he considers the "right way" to do things. For example:
Quote:
The only real issue with the aperture grille effect is that it's not an accurate model of how it actually worked on a real CRT. If you look at the shader code, it's very clear that he has a 1:1 correspondence between the aperture and the pixels, which is something that was rarely the case on actual CRTs. In reality, the aperture grille has a fixed physical resolution in the tube, whereas the incoming signal can be whatever resolution it wants.
What I would very much like is to eventually make the HLSL code in MAME/MESS generate the aperture grille effect at the highest resolution possible, then do a gamma-correct downsample to avoid the horrible colored stripe effect you get when you crank the aperture grille intensity up. Ideally that would give both a proper physical modelling of the aperture grille as well as avoid color beating, but that'd take more time than I'm up for putting in at the moment.
If you someone fixed the aperture grill this way, instead of the "wrong way", you'd probably get a more of the devs interested. That's just, like, my opinion though.
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| R. Belmont |
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Re: Need help for contact, regarding new HLSL post.fx Shader
[Re: SoltanGris42]
#330901 - 08/30/14 02:06 AM
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> R.Belmont is a MAME dev. And he's friendlier than the guy that wrote the HLSL system
> (no offense to MooglyGuy who is universally(?) loved for his message board
> responses).
Yeah, I'm the *good* cop. Most of the time, hehn hehn hehn.
> Some of the stuff in that post.fx is stuff that some people won't consider "crt
> simulation". Like the reflection and vignetting.
Correct, those are the sorts of things I referred to as "not a simulation".
> If you someone fixed the aperture grill this way, instead of the "wrong way", you'd
> probably get a more of the devs interested. That's just, like, my opinion though.
Also correct.
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Re: Need help for contact, regarding new HLSL post.fx Shader
[Re: SoltanGris42]
#330904 - 08/30/14 02:56 AM
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> R.Belmont is a MAME dev. And he's friendlier than the guy that wrote the HLSL system
> (no offense to MooglyGuy who is universally(?) loved for his message board
> responses).
Ok, i didnt know this and I guess I can forget my plan now, as I am sure I made a laughingstock out of me and maybe even upset him. I apologize 
> Some of the stuff in that post.fx is stuff that some people won't consider "crt
> simulation". Like the reflection and vignetting.
You named it "some people", but some see it the opposite way. IMHO i would say that vignetting is a "crt simulation", even the reflection to some degree. As most of the tubes had a curvature which results in darker corners and a brighter middle-part.
> The most useful thing is the shadowmask alignment. But the author of the HLSL has
> expressed a preference for NOT doing that because the number of aperture stripes is
> an inherent part of a particular CRT and should not depend on the output resolution.
Yeah, i think I remember some stuff, like it should be a 21" Sony PVM... meh (this alone is absurd, because that where not the tubes in arcade-cabs, but ok).
> I'm no MAME dev, so maybe you don't care what I have to say, but there are actual
> reasons this stuff might not make it in.
Uh, actually I care a lot, as this is some first serious post here, with at least some plausible reasons, why this is like that etc. and this is a good thing... thank you.
People have allready warned me before, that i may stumble across a lot of stubbornness with MAME and what shall I say... its true (and I mean not you or R. Belmont)
> And it's not like people don't know what HLSL looks like in it's current state. One
> the front page of the board you can find posts from MooglyGuy where he mentions some
> of what he considers the "right way" to do things. For example:
> The only real issue with the aperture grille effect is that it's not an accurate
> model of how it actually worked on a real CRT. If you look at the shader code, it's
> very clear that he has a 1:1 correspondence between the aperture and the pixels,
> which is something that was rarely the case on actual CRTs. In reality, the aperture
> grille has a fixed physical resolution in the tube, whereas the incoming signal can
> be whatever resolution it wants.
>
> What I would very much like is to eventually make the HLSL code in MAME/MESS generate
> the aperture grille effect at the highest resolution possible, then do a
> gamma-correct downsample to avoid the horrible colored stripe effect you get when you
> crank the aperture grille intensity up. Ideally that would give both a proper
> physical modelling of the aperture grille as well as avoid color beating, but that'd
> take more time than I'm up for putting in at the moment.
>
> If you someone fixed the aperture grill this way, instead of the "wrong way", you'd
> probably get a more of the devs interested. That's just, like, my opinion though.
Cant follow this, to be honest, I think that this is neither fish nor fowl. Even MooglyGuy´s aperture grille is just a tile, that is copied over the whole screen. The same is with Jezze´s shadowmasks, but done properly. Also I am sure, that a correct representation would need a 4k display. Therefore MooglyGuy´s own approach is only half-hearted at the current state and it even looks ugly, not enjoyable and most important also not accurate. No matter what he wrote here, that is a fact. So why not taking Jezze´s solution, until technology is in a better state to simulate this stuff properly? If MooglyGuy says that he even has no time to do it properly, why not using something that is right now in a better state?
If all of this would make any sense, then HLSL is not acceptable at all. You would need a CRT to play MAME, as nothing can be that accurate, no matter how hard MooglyGuy will try it with HLSL. So basically I see no difference in his or Jezze´s approach, except that Jezze´s one looks more "natural" to me.
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Re: Need help for contact, regarding new HLSL post.fx Shader
[Re: uman]
#330947 - 08/30/14 10:14 PM
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> @Traso: I dont understand your post . You basically quoted my post and i dont understand what you mean by it.
I made it appropriate for your audience - less words, important points - and going by your later responses, particularly given English does not appear to be your first language, you could use an editor-in-consultation.
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Re: Need help for contact, regarding new HLSL post.fx Shader
[Re: Traso]
#330972 - 08/31/14 03:19 PM
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Ok, i understand now. I have read much worser english here and never someone did complain about it. I am not here for witchin´and bitchin´(nice movie by the way).
It doesnt make sense for me to go on with this thread, if no one is interested in any improvements regarding HLSL. IMHO there was nothing wrong with it, as the post.fx from Jezze dont change any essential functions of the original code. People can at least decide for themselves, if a vignette or a light reflection has a "CRT simulation" characteristic.
Dont like = turn it off... easy as that.
On a last note regarding the vector settings on HLSL, i would recommend that the default of 500.0 in the vector_length_ratio is set to something meaningfull like 30.0 .
I never had any visual impact with settings higher than 100.0 , so i guess this is some kind of a bug.
I wish all MAME devs good look for the future and until the usage and handling of the shadowmask in HLSL is corrected, i can use alternatives.
thx, u-man
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Re: Need help for contact, regarding new HLSL post.fx Shader
[Re: uman]
#330981 - 08/31/14 09:43 PM
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uman I have a question for you my friend
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Re: Need help for contact, regarding new HLSL post.fx Shader
[Re: Outrun2006]
#330982 - 08/31/14 09:49 PM
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In an earlier post you mentioned SweetFX. I am an avid SweetFX user(NOT for MAME), and use it on other emulators. I would like to be able to to improve the crt effect. Is it possible to apply this new post.fx shader that your boy made to sweetfx, replacing the one that cwgw uses? What are my options for improving the crt shader in sweetFX?
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Re: Need help for contact, regarding new HLSL post.fx Shader
[Re: uman]
#330985 - 08/31/14 10:06 PM
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I think a lot of interest might've been shown if your approach had been a lot 'cooler' and concise. Let the product do the talking.
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Re: Need help for contact, regarding new HLSL post.fx Shader
[Re: Outrun2006]
#330986 - 08/31/14 10:18 PM
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To be honest, I never tried Sweet Fx, because I heard that many are not satisfied with the CRT-simulation.
I use RetroArch now, for nearly everything. Here are some pictures of RetroArch in action:
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Re: Need help for contact, regarding new HLSL post.fx Shader
[Re: Traso]
#330987 - 08/31/14 10:41 PM
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I cant do more than apologize. What goes around, comes around. I didnt start the fire, so to say.
As you allready pointed out, my english is bad and i couldnt post it more concise. Again, I am sorry, if the text was to long or to "hot".
Regarding the product, well its not a "real new" product. It will be more a kind of bundled tools in one app. I am sure nobody here will like it, because bundled tools is something "noob-a-like". If Jezze´s shader would make it into the official build, then maybe a comprehensive and nice tutorial would be enough to do and the app would be obsolete.
We will see 
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| R. Belmont |
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Re: Need help for contact, regarding new HLSL post.fx Shader
[Re: uman]
#330990 - 09/01/14 12:23 AM
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> To be honest, I never tried Sweet Fx, because I heard that many are not satisfied
> with the CRT-simulation.
>
> I use RetroArch now, for nearly everything. Here are some pictures of RetroArch in
> action:
LOLWUT? Have you ever used a properly-adjusted CRT TV? That amount of barrel distortion is physically impossible. I mean, literally physically impossible.
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Re: Need help for contact, regarding new HLSL post.fx Shader
[Re: R. Belmont]
#330996 - 09/01/14 02:09 AM
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Listen, i dont want to have beef here. Take a deep breath and relax. Off course I have properly adjusted CRT TV, not many, but some. I would say there are a lot CRTs that looks like this shader.
You dont believe? Than read this: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=95833.0
and look at the pictures carefully please, as they are pictures from the "real things" and then tell me that amount of barrel distortion is physically impossible...
Thats the reason, why I think its not such a good idea to imitate a 21" Sony PVM, because that is a too awesome CRT for a "normal" arcade-cab. Hell, its a studio-monitor for postproduction, a absolutely highend CRT so to say. If you think, that this is the definition for arcade, than I cant help you, but I dont see it this way, thats for sure.
Beside of this, its a matter of taste. I like it that way and it looks real for me, especially when you see it in motion. I can turn down the distortion and post some other pictures again, but I like it how it is right now. RetroArch shaders are not easy to configure and I will rather wait the upcoming version 1.0.3 where sliders (like HLSL) will be included. I even have them right now, but not for all shaders (unfortunately this shader included).
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Re: Need help for contact, regarding new HLSL post.fx Shader
[Re: R. Belmont]
#331078 - 09/02/14 07:31 PM
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> > I use RetroArch now, for nearly everything.
> LOLWUT? Have you ever used a properly-adjusted CRT TV? That amount of barrel distortion is physically impossible. I mean, literally physically impossible.
You haven't seen an early Mitsubishi XC-2730. Kah-ra-zy parabolic slope.
Yeah, the PVMs are nice monitors (and fuckin heavier than any other brand), I had a couple 25s, but they have screen curvature along only one axis. Fine for horizontal games, if they're not scrolling.
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Re: Need help for contact, regarding new HLSL post.fx Shader
[Re: Traso]
#331127 - 09/03/14 12:32 PM
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Till the mid to late eighties, there was many crt´s in arcade-cabs that had kah-razy parabolic slopes .
found a you-tube video of the shader:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRhA9onqL0Q
Next week, I will replace my 28" 15khz, with a NEC 3PG Multisync, cant wait to see how that will turn out, but I am sure, it will "enhance" my cab  .
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Re: Need help for contact, regarding new HLSL post.fx Shader
[Re: uman]
#331136 - 09/03/14 08:32 PM
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> Next week, I will replace my 28" 15khz, with a NEC 3PG Multisync, cant wait to see> how that will turn out, but I am sure, it will "enhance" my cab .
Indeed. As I recall, the scan range on the 3PG is about the widest ever produced. Custom modelines galore....ah, depending also on how many it'll store.
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Re: Need help for contact, regarding new HLSL post.fx Shader
[Re: uman]
#331155 - 09/03/14 10:07 PM
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> Till the mid to late eighties, there was many crt´s in arcade-cabs that had kah-razy
> parabolic slopes .
And they had perfect straight-line picture geometry when adjusted properly and serviced regularly. You can even get perfect straight-line geometry on late 1940s CRTs that were round instead of round-rect shaped.
You kids all think we actually would've put up with watching a TV where the image appeared to be getting pulled into a black hole, it's adorable.
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Re: Need help for contact, regarding new HLSL post.fx Shader
[Re: R. Belmont]
#331212 - 09/04/14 04:01 PM
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First, I am not a kid, maybe I behave like one, but 40 is definetly not kid .
I think it depends at which angle you look at a screen, so i attached a picture of the so loved Sony. As you can see, there is some curvature on horizontal lines, because we dont look orthogonally at it .
But I listen to you and i reduced the "fisheye" to 33% of the original. Hope we will have that cleared now. Now i need to adjust the tv-mask properly, so that the screen doesnt cover the game. And yes, the black borders will be not softed like it is now. I will make hardedged but anti-aliased borders. Anything else I forgot?
greetz u-man.
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Need help for contact, regarding new HLSL post.fx Shader
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